Wondered if anyone saw this channel 4 documentary a few weeks ago. Women are more likely to be misdiagnosed than men, die if a heart attack than men . Most drug trials are carried out on men and because women metabolise drugs differently than men , tend to be much lighter so one dose regime does not fit all and women are more likely to suffer side effects not surprisingly .and commonly prescribed drugs may even be harmful to them . It is an overdue conversation at all levels .
And while I am channelling my inner Emily Pankhurst , there are a FEW men on the forum who appear to think they and their view should dominate, and address female contributors in ways they wouldn’t do males . I suggest they pause and reflect
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Peony4575
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Agree with all you have said Peony. It's annoying that woman are still not viewed as equal to men! We had a forum member get really upset about the way they spoke to her, a year or so ago, and she left the forum outraged.
I've often noticed that some men are not pleased to get replies to their post from a woman and will only answer those from men.
I don't think men are purposely that domineering way. They see themselves as protectors of women, it's just a natural inbuilt response they have. They don't realise that at times it can sound like they're giving us orders.
I don't think we can change the outlook or attitude of men towards women. They would see it as being weak and would never really want to listen if we tried to explain.
I think the younger people of today are becoming more aware of equality regarding the sexes.
I'm afraid I think we're stuck with domineering men, but then we women are not so perfect are we. I've been accused of being bossy in past relationships, but I see it as being helpful. I take a pride in the way I dress and also that of the man I'm with, so no way would I let him go out looking scruffy or with mismatched items of clothing.
Hmm, think I've talked myself into saying we need a bit of give and take from both sides.
I don’t equate protectiveness with domineering . I used to fight with my father around this when I was a little girl and am not about to accept it now. Bossy is not a word you ever hear ascribed to men it’s a discriminatory term arising out of prejudiced stereotypes. I agree we can’t change the attitudes of the dinosaurs but we can remind them to watch their behaviour . I don’t see equality as having anything to do with whether we enjoy looking pretty or looking after our families we can be different but equal. Telling you you are bossy is just trying to put you back in your box
Mr Buff has accused me of treating him like a child, my response being that if he acts like one I’ll automatically treat him like one (once a teacher.....) but probably not the way to go for peace and harmony ☺️
Jean I'm always happy to see your replies. Must pay more attention in future as I have never noticed such. I do notice that one or two members will always dissagree with me though. It's a free world lol 😁
Peony whilst I did not see the programme you mention I did see a report some time ago (probably five or six years) which suggested that ladies were less likely to be taken seriously by GPs because they seldom looked ill.
I think the point was made that whilst men would likely go unshaven, unkempt and looking pretty sad, the natural tendency of ladies to try to look their best at all times mitigated against them in such circumstances. I also know that traditionally GPs would often blame "your age" or " hysteria" for things like AF , a trend which hopefully is well past by now, especially knowing how few male GPs are around (at least in my area). Add in the natural tendency of the male animal to make a lot of fuss about minor things and there will be an imbalance.
That said I never seem to know what gender some members are as the avatars are often missleading. There are at least seven ladies who I once thought were men from the names and at least one who I suspect may be male from their responses.
To answer your question IMHO maybe not but they are definitely stronger and mostly more resilient.
It is also the case that women’s symptoms may present differently than the ones doctors are told to look out for in medical school ( based on how men have presented over the years) so even the most well meaning GP may fail to pick up on them . The perpetuation of myths such as women don’t get heart disease when it is in fact their biggest killer . And the pharmaceutical burden of drugs will be higher on for example the female liver because it is smaller and the biochemistry may be different because women metabolise some drugs at least differently .
I do know that women may not get the traditional symptoms of heart attack ( pain sweating etc ) presented by men and therefor have minor undetected attacks which leave the biggy often far more serious or even fatal. I do wonder though if the focus on some cancers mean that women may get diagnosed sooner ( and therefor survive more) than men who don't talk about such things . I know when I was diagnosed with prostate cancer it was the wives of friends who sent them off for tests which fortunately found two out of seven with the disease. Ten years down the line we are all still here thank you ladies.
Thank you Bob we do our best ! I also dragged my partner to help and he was was stented as he was building up to a heart attack . Being equal does not mean being the same. Vive la difference as the French would say . Women get diagnosed readily for breast cancer , ovarian and other cancers not as well screened . Men in my area get screened for aortic aneurysm at 65 women not at all unless they have “risk” factors. My friend collapsed and died in a hospital bathroom ftom an aortic aneurysm as an inpatient . They tested every other reason for her symptoms but not that “ because women don’t get aortic aneurysms . They had just told her she could get dressed and go home
Well big cheer for the A&E docs who tested both me and my mother for aortic aneurysms, fortunately negatively but I was very relieved because that is what my Granny died of - in our home 😰
Am very pleased to hear it ! But very sorry about your granny it must have been very upsetting for you all
Feeling suitably chastised, the only thing I will say in my defence it’s inevitable that everyone will have varying degrees of knowledge but that doesn’t mean they have the right to stifle comment from anyone regardless of their sex. Obviously I can only speak for me. Over the last six years or so, I have been fortunate enough to have attended a significant number of AF related presentations from experts in their field and when appropriate, I draw on that information to help others, making it clear that I am not medically trained. I would be the first to admit that sometimes react when things are said which could be potentially dangerous but I always try to give my reasons but I also understand that not everyone will accept the reasoning. For me it has nothing to do with their sex, it’s what they say which is important.
Regardless of all that, I take the point you make. Off forum, Jean and I have had a number of similar discussions and I have always endeavoured to heed her advice (even when it’s wrong) JOKE!!!
I don’t think you can generalise . My son and son in law totally believe in equality . As does my partner . My father God rest his soul not so much . Some men are huge champions of female equality and champion their daughters rights to do whatever they want . It’s not a case of All men or All women it’s behaviours
Thank you John . Unfortunately you are right and some of the culprits either won’t realise what they are doing or won’t care . I will comment next time I see something but was hoping they might take the hint ! My concern is it will discourage women from taking part in the forum or even drive them away as Jean highlighted , so without opposition the problem will continue unabated .
We first heard this many years ago on Woman's Hour on Radio 4. My wife works shifts and listened to it on either the way home or two work and brought my attention to it. I think the statistics then were that women were 8 times more likely to come away misdiagnosed than men. I also find that women tend not to go back and argue their case as men may do. My late wife was treated for 2 years for IBS when she had cancer and died at 57 because of that misdiagnosis. My current wife was told - Oh- that's normal at your age - it wasn't and frankly so pleased that wasn't cancer too. A lot of men will go on about women going on about women's lib and all that and isn't it wonderful the screening they get - much better than men get etc but as you can see from the above its not that great is it?
No it’s not great and am so sorry for your loss . Same thing happened to my mother . GPs didn’t look beyond her thyroid to address her symptoms and she collapsed and died of a heart attack aged 56 . They are supposed to be good in breast cancer but my friend went along to a female GP three times aged 48 and was told her lump would be nothing . She died of secondaries aged 56 . I could go on . Thank you for being a champion x
I have heard so many tragic stories like these but I think I should say in fairness that it is not only male doctors who are guilty of that behaviour - a couple of years back I went to a female stand-in GP with two symptoms: presyncope and fluid retention and was treated as ‘the worried well’ 😡
Thank you John. It was that incident that prompted my original comment . It was totally unacceptable . Not asking for special treatment for women . No one should be treated like that but I ve not seen such behaviour directed against a man . Thank you for speaking out
I have not noticed any male contributors assuming they know better than female ones nor any bias against views put forward by women. Mind you, in any group of people you can find anything you look for.
I do agree that human beings can manipulate the opposite sex to get what they want. (Take that how you like!) I noticed at work manipulative women were much more suble (sneaky?) in how they dominated others, whereas men blundered in.
The issue of women receiving less attention in medical situations is a real cause for concern I think and many reasons and theories have been put forward to explain it. My own thinking is that women are more used to medical treatments/intervention/doctors etc and are more patient generally. A woman might not wish to push for attention, might be more accepting of a doctor's advice or diagnosis and could be inclined to play down her symptoms more than a man.
Edit: Och - posted too soon. I don't think women are equal to men - we are different, or men are different. That doesn't mean we should disrespect anyone, male or female - I expect to be treated equally and return the compliment.
Judging by this post you haven’t noticed because you don’t see anything wrong with it . As far as I am concerned you have just blown a big smoking hole in your own foot with such a mysogenist post
No, I don't - I see how manipulation of the opposite sex differs between men and women - women are less forthright in how they do it than men are, hence my description.
You think it’s ok to generalise and describe all women as sneaky and manipulative and you can’t see why women would be offended by that ? Perhaps the women you encountered were too afraid to be forthright there is a lot of that about
Manipulative women, in brackets sneaky . And you really can’t see why I find that unacceptable . You are entitled to your view that women are not equal to men . Happily there are a lot of men who don’t think like you
As I said earlier, I believe in equal treatment and respect from men and women for each other - that does not automatically mean they are equal. For example, I can disagree with people without being insulting - whereas you have insulted me directly in several of your posts. This is exactly what you complain about in this forum.
I don’t think I have insulted you . I have responded to things you have said I find offensive . As you really can’t see what I am saying we will have to differ
I’m beginning to wonder if you and John6 are married 😂💝😂
Men consider women as "weaker sex", women consider men as "paying sex", lol. (from the texbook)
No, I certainly don't think of men as the paying sex SteelHeart, what an old fashioned idea! I can afford to look after myself, have lots of friends and family members nearby and have no need for a man to subsidise my life. I never, ever get bored and my life is wonderfully stress free.
You are right, my textbook is about 50 years old... Let us consider the things seriously, from a distant country. In the 1950-ties, we still had the parts of Yugoslavia where the wife had to walk 10 steps behind the husband. Strange, I know, but I remember that from my childhood. In these years, we had a lot of children, every family had at least 2, some more than that.
With a slight time delay compared to western countries, we had the emancipation of the women introduced in the country. The things developed from itself through the decades, until we all have noticed that the women have slipped into over-emancipation. Nowadays, the girls smoke in 90% cases, the boys in 60% cases. The girls drink from the bottle in restaurants, they swear like the men once did, and behave inappropirately. The consequences?! The boys have the problem to approach the girls, there are less and less relationships between them, the marriages, if any, last from one to three years, and there are almost no children.
Not advocating anything here, simply giving the facts.
Someone of the foreigners, who visited Serbia, has said in the TV: Serbia is the country of beautiful women, who do not bear any children...
I visited what was Yugoslavia before the war and it is a beautiful country . Sometimes when you get liberation of any kind the pendulum can swing too far the other way and maybe the girls are doing what they were forbidden to do for a long time and emulating men . The emancipation of women in any country is relatively recent in the great span of history and I worry that the girls in this country drink more alcohol than is good for their health . But things have a way of heading back to the median when things have swung too far things will settle in time
Thanks for the nice response, Peony! Absolutely agree with swinging in after some time.If to be honest, in Tito's times, we were brought up as equal among the equal, whereby the females were given absolutely all rights as the men. I wish you could have witnessed the atmosphere in the society - us, young ones, were true friends, accepting each other without any limitations. The girls from my generation (1952.) were open and friendly, knowing that the boys will behave as it should be. If the girl would refuse a boy, it was usually done without offending him and also was not taken as something bad from the boy. We got married in 90% cases and have had "normal" family life, with relatively few divorces. Feel sorry for our young ones, but the situation is similar in other countries also...
Last year i read a book ‘The Invisible Women’ by Caroline Criado Perez it reveals “how in a world largely built for and by men we are systematically ignoring half the population, often with disastrous consequences. And i agree with the premise of the book.
You are right about more women dying from heart attacks. I think that was due to women having lower troponin levels signifying damage to the heart; this was due to the trials having been conducted on men, not women. I've been operated on by men and women, my GPs have been men and women, my bosses have been men and women, I've been a passenger in plannes flown by men and women. I'm sure that I have some views would not stand a rigorous examination, but feel free to call me out.
You seem very self aware to me , can’t imagine having to call you out . I think with the women and troponin levels I think that is exactly right, I also think because women’s symptoms are often more obscure they may not go for help in time . I think medicine needs to start paying more attention to the differences instead of eg putting a woman and a msn twice her size on the same dose of many medicines
Dosage. I was prescribed an antibiotic for a UTI that didn't work. That was because the male doctor had prescribed a dose for a woman about four stones lighter than me.
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No wine for women
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