Very interesting post on Dr David Grimes blog about the fall in covid deaths and ICU admittance since the local government in Andalucia mandated prophylactic vit D deficiency correction and Calcifediol protocol for those already sick. This was brought in from 8th November and unlike most other places there has been a dramatic fall in morbidity and mortality in December. I have been following case and death rates for European countries on the Worldometers site since March and had noticed that Spanish death rates had fallen and were lower than here in France and a fraction of those in the UK.
Dramatic fall in ICU admittance and d... - Atrial Fibrillati...
Dramatic fall in ICU admittance and death rates in Andalucia
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Auriculaire
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Thanks a very encouraging post. Not sure how much and how often or which D3 or D12 but am supplementing some of each. Need to do more homework on vitamins generally and what to take with them to best absorb....anybody have a handy list they can post?
It seems beyond rational belief that NICE and all the health authorities of all other European countries, including Spain itself, would be allowing their citizens to suffer and die from covid, as well as allowing health systems to be overrun and economies to be affected, if the administration of something so simple and apparently safe could prevent it.
There will surely be hell to pay if this proves to be true.
Steve
In India covid " packs" are given out including vit D and an anti parasite drug called invermectin. There have been quite a few promising studies including RCTs done in mainly third world countries showing good results for invermectin both as prophylactic and treatment in early infection. Here in France they have been swept aside by one so called expert because no western trials have confirmed them implying that because done in a third world country they must be rubbish trials. This seems both racist and hypocritical given the farming out of RCTs by major pharmaceutical companies to lots of third world countries. It also begs the question of why western European countries are not mounting large trials into these cheap as chips remedies . And why the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has refused point blank to fund any trials using vit D. I smell a very large rat.
I doubt there’s a rat and I trust the Gates Foundation. I suspect academia, politics and personalities get in the way massively in the West - stuff like that rather than conspiracy stuff, anyway. Mindsets have formed among academics that distort common sense at times. It’s hard for me to believe some of what I hear goes on but it’s clearly a different world. You would think science was straightforward in its quest for truth, but no.
We’re still taking our daily doses of Vitamin D. The last time I used ivermectin was to put it into a few sausages over several days to help a wild fox overcome its parasitic illness. It worked - its once bedraggled tail and dull coat were transformed.
Steve
As you have said before - science is one thing ,scientists another kettle of fish! I do find it suspicious though that cheap as chips remedies are pooh poohed without proper inverstigation yet an enormous amount of money is spent on an expensive anti viral like Remdesivir a few days before the RCTs show that it is actually of very little use at all. Who are Gilead bribing? Well according to declarations on renumerations quite a lot of medical academics here in France.
The problem is no one can know for sure, which leaves all kinds of claims possible. Investigative journalism seems less interested in things these days and corruption is far less easy to prove.
That is really interesting. We are keeping the high dose of vitamin D3 going!
Where we are in Spain (not right now, obviously) there have been no cases in the last couple of weeks, nevertheless there has been a strict lockdown where people cannot go outside their area. One friend went to drive to Baza, the only place nearby with larger supermarkets, and all roads were blocked by armed police. So it is back to the tiny village store where one really has to pick a time to go as there can be lots of people there chatting and socialising.
How interesting ! Thank you for sharing this x
Very interesting! My wife and I have been taking D3 daily for some months (1000-2000 IU daily) so positive endorsements like this are reassuring. I'd love to read the article - do you have a link to it please? I looked up Dr David Grimes on google and there's no mention of such an article there, though there are links to his website and twitter. Recent twitter entries consist largely of his views on Trump; on the "Blog" link on his website homepage the most recent items are from 2017-2018. Sorry to bother you, but I'm stumped!
I am useless at links. It is the latest article on his blog -drdavidgrimes.com - the only one so far for 2021. Last year he has a lot a stuff on the various studies on vit D and covid. I don't understand how you can't access it. I googled it and it was the a few links down.
That’s interesting as I found his blog easily with a Google search. I’m not truly convinced of his evidence source or conclusions but there’s no way to check this kind of thing, sadly (but I still take my Vitamin D and multivitamin).
drdavidgrimes.com/2021/01/c...
You web browser will call it an “insecure” web site but it’s safe to visit.
Steve
Thanks Auriculaire and Ppiman. Google is strange: I typed "dr david grimes" in the search field, and this is what it came up with (along with various twitter and clearly irrelevant suggestions):- <davidrobertgrimes.com>I've just tried again, with exactly the same outcome. No "drdavidgrimes.com" anywhere in the search results!
Many thanks, anyway, for sorting me out. It's a fascinating article and obviously well researched. Have you seen his talk on Youtube? This does come up on google, several pages into the search results:-
<youtube.com/watch?v=JdRd0uH...
It is odd. I typed in dr david grimes and his website ( up to date) came up after a few links to letters to the bmj and other places.
Thanks for that - I look forward to seeing it a bit later. But now - dinnertime and I am starving! 
Sorry, I didn't mean to clutter the thread with an actual Youtube video, which I hadn't expected: I only intended to give the address of it, so that people could look it up if they wanted to. Many apologies if I've broken rules here, or if it's a nuisance to anyone.
Why do you doubt his evidence source? I would be interested to know your reasons.
It isn't so much doubting him as doubting the source: the Internet. It allows such a corruption of the truth to be conveyed as if it were the actual truth that I am very careful which Internet sources I now trust.
I also still manage to hold onto my trust in NICE and their equivalents in Europe than perhaps I should and feel that they would indeed be promoting Vitamin D if it were truly able to prevent the "cytokine storm" as conclusively as he claims. I truly hope that it proves to be true, and I did like a lot of what that doctor said.
Steve
I read somewhere recently that NICE was very much invested in evaluating RCTs for drug treatment of disease and so far there has only been one RCT for Calcifediol with published results. The RCT in Brazil for Vit D was negative and is probably because of the time lag between ingestion of cholecalciferol and its hydroxylation to Calcifediol in the liver - and that depends to a degree on individual liver function. They seem to have been taking their lead from SACN who in my view are useless on the subject of vit D. They only consider the effect on the muscular skeletal system and appear to be totally ignorant of a decades worth of research into the immuno modulatory properties of vit D. Part of the problem is the nomenclature. Vit D is NOT a vitamin and should not be under the purview of a committee concerned with nutrition. They have also set the levels for deficiency lower than in the rest of Europe and well below the 75 nmol/ l level identified by the observational studies on vit D as being the minimum needed to mitigate covid infections. There will have to be backtracking and admission of having got it wrong for things to change . I cannot see this happening as it would be tantamount to admitting that their closed mindedness has probably led to the deaths of thousands of people. Especially -and this needs to be hammered home- there is no downside. Correcting deficiency cannot have a downside and is not even expensive. So why not give it a try?
I can see your argument and yet I can’t bring myself to imagine NICE acting quite in the ways you suggest - but it’s not impossible, of course. I haven’t researched this anything like you have so I might well be wrong.
I’d like to think that if NICE do get things wrong, then that will have been a well-considered, expert consensus view, which would be corrected if different evidence comes to light. They don’t feel embarrassment as a person does, after all and have checks and balances designed to help them arrive at good decisions.
If they do rely on certain kinds of scientific evidence, then that is surely also an equally well-reasoned choice - why would it be otherwise? Treading cautiously is medicine’s way.
What might be true is that their bureaucracy makes it difficult for them to make changes, or to change quickly enough. I don’t know about that.
The idea that NICE views vitamin D as “only” a vitamin useful for bone health is surely not right either. They must be aware of the developing science regarding the vitamin’s metabolism and uptake into cells and what that might mean.
If Vitamin D can single-handedly prevent the inflammatory mechanism that leads to the multiple organ failure some covid sufferers sadly experience, then that would be an utterly amazing thing.
But who knows. I hope it does - and if it does, then NICE and many other health bodies have much to answer for.
Steve
It is SACN who views vit D like that. If NICE are following SACN ( and why wouldn't they as vit D is under the purview of SACN) then they are being negligent. Obviously a good vit D level will not prevent cytokine storm in all cases but even if it does so in some it would be worth using it. Again where is the downside?
One thought occurred to me a while back that I can now see might be related to your ideas concerning Vitamin D. I’m not sure of the current situation, but it has often been stated that many more (older) men die from covid than do (older) women. The reasons for this, I gather, have never been understood.
I suspect that many older women take vitaminD in its various forms, prescribed or otc, for bone health and osteoporosis. Do you think this might possibly explain the gender mortality differences?
It’s a thought.
Steve
Certainly vit D treatment for deficiency seems to be more targeted at women here. My husband is in his late seventies and our GP has never tested him for vit D deficiency.
I'm intrigued by the thought that this connection might be the evidence that is needed. I am fairly sure that many older women take supplements containing vitamin D over here, and, most certainly, many more are prescribed the vitamin regardless of their measured levels.
I'm a retired vet in the US. I can see my bloodwork reports after 36 hours online. This is the first time I've seen Vit D level in my reports. They know .
Fauci himself has admitted to taking 6000iu a day. There was a rumour that Trump was given 50,000iu a day as part of his treatment.
I've read various things about Trump and I take them all with a pinch of orange-dyed salt!
Yes but Fauci is an actual scientist!
Yes - Trump thought him an appallingly bad one, too!
He is.... He's contradicted himself more times than I can count since the pandemic started. He contradicted himself this morning. Said he thinks we in the USA will be back to normal by the end of summer. Before it was this spring. Also he said the vaccines probably won't work against the new variants. He really doesn't know any more than a lay person. He's now a pawn of the democrats. Our politics are much worse than you all know. Trump did more could for this country than others have in a long time. The democrats were angry from day one because they lost and he won in 2016. They are a spiteful bunch and did everything they could to trip him up. They didn't like him because Congress is nothing but a dog and pony show. And he was not going to become a player. They waste taxpayers money on projects that mean nothing for the American citizens. They were afraid Trump would show the American people just how corrupt and crooked they have become. And both parties are guilty. They only have themselves in mind. But the democrats are the worst. They will sell out this country. They want us to believe that Russia is our worst enemy. No. It's China. President Xi is chomping at the bit to get his mitts deeper into the USA. And he will probably buddy up to Russia. The next four years will be a bumpy ride and what affects the USA might also affect your other countries. I hope to God I'm wrong but what I see going on, I don't think so. 😪
And Trump didn't contradict himself and come out with utterly ridiculous things like bleach injections? Trump didn't show one ounce of caring or compassion for all those dying in the pandemic. Probably because most of them are poor, black , latinos and Native Americans. No doubt losers in his book. As for corrupt and crooked no doubt we will find out just how corrupt and crooked Trump has been when his various trials get going.
Sorry to see you repeat what our biased media reports. Just like they took his comment about bleach seriously. It was a joke. A bad joke. But a joke. Some cannot read between the lines. And you think Trump is corrupt and crooked? Ha. You obviously know nothing about the corrupt democrats who are in office. You don't hear about all their crooked doings because our biased media does not report any of it. Biden is rascist. There are many horrible things he's said in the past about blacks especially. But no-one reports those things because the media is so biased. They believe the democrats do no wrong. It's sickening. I used to be a Democrat until I realized that they no longer worked for the working man. But unfortunately,anymore, neither party works for the citizens of this country. The corruption is too deep. Our politicians have forgotten they work for us citizens. Our constitution says of the people, by the people and for the people. It's been tarnished by all the corruption. If you knew more about our politicians, Trump isn't even close to being as corrupt as some of them. You have no idea. I don't comment on your politics. I don't live in your country. I only know what I hear in the news. How do I know if your media is biased or not? I don't. How do I know if your media tells the truth. We have a saying, believe half of what you hear and none of what you see. That's what's become of the news reporting here. I remember when our news anchors used to report the facts. Now they spout their personal opinions. That's not reporting the news anymore. You have the right to believe what you want. But I'm afraid if you think the next four years in the USA will be better under Biden, you will be sadly disappointed. I'm not angry with you or anyone here. Thank God for freedom of speech. That we can all say what we feel. Our politics are kind of like having Afib. Unless you experience it yourself you really don't know. I still wish you the best and take care. ☺
Actually what I really wanted to do on here was to wish jean to get well. It's been mentioned she's having gall bladder problems. I hope she's okay.😔
I'm sorry Belinda but it is not a question of believing biased media. All the world could see footage of Trump coming out with incoherent nonsense. You can say he was joking when he talked about bleach injections but it did not sound to me like a joke . A lot of what he said sounded like the ramblings of someone with a poor grip on reality. Are you saying that the footage our media like the BBC or France 2 was recording was somehow fake? That they were putting words in his mouth ? I know this is technically possible but quite frankly to believe all the world's media were doing this is paranoid. I agree that there is more bias in media now than there used to be especially when covering political affairs but you have media in the US like Fox who supported Trump for 4 years.
You think Trump rambled? You haven't listened to Biden much. Trump said a lot of things to rile the news people at his briefs because they never gave him a fair shake because of their biasness. I've never seen the media be so biased and hateful and spiteful towards a President. Biden has said he'd be totally transparent with people. Already his white house speaker has already not answered questions transparently for her boss. You don't hear everything that goes on here. Nor do you know all the past history of our politics as I don't yours. But it's your right to believe what you want. Have a great day.
You think governor Cuomo of New York cared about all the nursing home patients who died because he mandated that the nursing home patients who had been in the hospitals be sent back to the nursing homes when they were still contagious? So they spread the virus to all the patients and staff? That wasn't Trump who did that. Those deaths are on governor Cuomo. You make it sound as if Trump personally killed all those who have died. He got the vaccines going warp speed. Do you blame your leaders on everyone's deaths. It's just so sad that only half of what goes on gets reported. And that people are so close minded that they only believe that half. But you have the right to your opinion. Have a nice day. I'm not being sarcastic. Do have a nice day.
Yes I do blame Boris Johnson for mismanagement of the pandemic in the UK which has led to a very high death rate. I do blame our President Macron for his policies of reducing hospital beds and continuing to do so during the pandemic for political reasons of reducing state spending. The same thing happened in Britain with care homes as happened in New York. As for rambling Trump spoke incoherently at his rallies too. The only reason Trump got the vaccines going warp speed was because he wanted to be able announce a successful vaccine before the election in the hope it would help get him reelected. I happen to believe what his niece says about him - that the only person Trump has ever cared about is himself and possibly his immediate family. As for being close minded I am aware of the reasons that led to Trump being elected in 2016 and I probably have a greater knowledge of American history and politics than the average European - we have American family who we are in contact with regularly and who visit us from time to time. And European media report far more on what is taking place in America than vice versa.
As I said you have your opinion. There is an old song by the Eagles. One line goes "You see it your way and I see it mine, but we both see it slipping away". And to me the slipping away is I see the world slipping away. I think most would agree with that. My parents and their parents would say that their next generation would inherit a mess. Well I think that they would definitely agree the world is in a bigger mess right now than they could have ever imagined. So I agree that we disagree. Thank God we still have the right to do so. I just now saw Boris Johnson on the news say the new variant in the UK will cause higher mortality. It is sad. The same in the USA. And I can only pray that somehow things will get better. And I do wish for you and your loved ones and every one on this forum to stay safe and well. 🙏😔
Well I'd agree with you there! I am glad I am old ( ish) as I do not see things getting any better and think they will get a lot worse. I think my generation was lucky in that we had it a lot better than our parents and grandparents but I think we were the last. Climate change is going to cause a lot more upheaval throughout the world. We aint seen nothing yet. Here our summers have gone in 20 years from nice ( 25°- 32°) to far too hot with regular heatwaves with temperatures getting up to 40° and over. And long periods of drought in an area that always had plenty rain in summer. I feel sorry for our grandchildren as they will have worse lives.
I agree with you there. We do have it better in a lot of ways than our parents and grandparents. Look at all the technology now. The cars. Appliances. Cellphones. They would be amazed. And their lives would have been easier. I remember when blenders were all the rage. Make cooking so much easier. My mother bought one and thought you could make mashed potatoes in one. Well more like potato soup. We all laughed about it. And I still get a smile when I think about it. Me, Auriculaire, I'm very scared for all our futures. I never had children. (My sis has eight and several grandchildren. I tell everyone she had my half😁). In a way, I'm glad I didn't have children to leave in this uncertain world.
Yes the climate is changing everywhere I guess. Florida is having more cold weather in the winter and it's getting hotter in the summers. The glaciers are melting. It sounds awful but the last couple years bodies of mountain climbers are being found where they had to be left behind over the decades where the snow and ice have been melting.
I was just reading another article about the virus. Roy Anderson, who I believe is an epidemiologist at the Imperial college in London, has stated the virus will never go away. It will continue to mutate until hopefully it becomes another virus like the common cold. Maybe a childhood disease. The vaccine will help immunity but there will probably be a vaccine for it like the regular flu every year. It won't happen I don't think in our lifetime but hopefully it will become just a common cold for your grandchildren and their children. Who knows, maybe during their lifetimes, all kinds of new treatments will be out there for all sorts of diseases and illnesses. Maybe in their lifetime Afib will be unheard of. Lucky them if that comes to be👍😌. So let's hope it doesn't turn out to be all bad. I certainly hope not. Please do continue to be safe. Thank you for your kindness.
My friend in Oklahoma holds a different view but my own thoughts are that the coronavirus blighted any attempt to make life better for anyone - and the American response led by Trump has led to mass deaths of your elderly. I suspect Fauci’s ideas would have saved many lives?
None of us know what China’s global political intentions are and, like Russia, they would make a bad enemy since they are anything but straightforward, open and transparent in their motives.
I just can’t be partisan regarding politics. I don’t trust any of them.
Steve
Trump listened to the information given him. Several of our Democratic politicians accused Trump of starting a hoax as the virus came during the ridiculous impeachment process. Look it up. Senator Elizabeth Warren said it was a hoax. That Trump was using it to deter from the impeachment. Speaker of the House Pelosi said it wasn't a big deal. As well as a number of other people. Even Fauci in the beginning said it was probably nothing to worry about. Said in the beginning didn't need to wear masks. Then when we started learning the virus was a big deal, Trump tried to shut down flights from China. Oh. Democrats said can't do that. It would be rascist. The problem here is too many people who are so biased tend to have closed minds. They don't want to listen to all the news. Only what their "side" says. And when that happens you get fake news. And unfortunately that seems to be what our media reports. Not the facts. Only what they think is the news. Walter Cronkite probably rolls around in his grave. He was a real news reporter in his time. I have no faith in our political system right now. And that goes for both sides. Trump was hated and he knew it because he would not become a part of the swamp. He was shot down every time he tried to do something. Members of Congress have been there way too long. And they have ruined this country. And if you look through Biden's history and the corruption in his family, he should be impeached.
When you say that Trump was out to save the world from the "swamp", well, not everyone would agree with that extreme characterisation of "the world". Very many people today - not everyone, of course - are better off than their parents and grandparents ever were: they drive a big car or whatever, have takeaways and similar; they pay out tens of dollars a month for a mobile phone and so on. Even in "developing countries" - in fact, perhaps especially in developing countries - clean water and sanitation, food and healthcare are at unprecedented levels compared even with quite recent times.
Of course, corruption seems also to be at unprecedented levels, too - but is it? Wealth seems to be unfairly shared like never before - but is it? Individual power seems unevenly distributed but compared to the past, is it?
I think for those who really like the "swamp" metaphor, then it has always been there and has always been very murky. In fact, I'd say far murkier than today despite the sense that the media nowadays isn't telling the whole truth. Of course it isn't - its purpose, after all, is also to gain a paying audience to help it make the money it needs to continue (long live the BBC!); but I think today we know far more, thanks to the media, biased as it is, of what goes on in the corridors of wealth and power than we ever did.
Steve
Oh I didn't say Trump was trying to save "the world" from the swamp. Only our citizens. Our Congress is a swamp. Too many members have been in far too long. There should be term limits but then that will never happen because the members would have to vote yes for that and they aren't about to do that. Congress is supposed to pass bills to keep the country going financially and to protect us. But they have been passing what we call pork bills for decades. Bills that give money to their friends and lobbyists who helped them get in office. Pay-off money if you will. There's so many ridiculous bills passed to give money for silly projects that don't matter "for nothing". That happened when the first stimulus checks were given out. These politicians literally sneak in these silly bills, but in order to get the major important bill passed, the president, no matter who it is, will go ahead and sign the bill. So much money goes to waste and so much goes to those who certainly don't deserve it. The democrats allotted 25 million dollars to the Kennedy Center of the Arts in the first stimulus bill and it was closed because of the pandemic. That money could have gone somewhere else where it was needed. It could have helped those whose businesses were hurting. That's what happens in our corrupt Congress. And if it's one thing Trump did, he made more people aware of the swamp. And the members of Congress didn't like that one bit. But it's up to the American people to change it by not continuing to vote the same corrupt politicians back into office. And as far as the media here in the USA. They have become very biased. And they shouldn't be. Their job is to report the facts. Not twist the facts around and make fake news which they do nowadays. They aren't supposed to give their personal opinions or pass judgement. But they do nowadays. It's gotten to be I don't even want to see the news because they are so biased. I don't want to hear their personal opinions or listen to them judge . I want the facts. But I guess I'm asking for too much. Like Auriculaire said, things in this world will get worse. I feel I have to agree with her. We, in the USA, have put our trust in our politicians and they have continued to let us down. They put the blame on everyone but themselves. Why people have to stop voting for them over and over. Sometimes it just all seems hopeless. Sorry I blab on and on. Guess I'm just venting. But I believe in what I say.
Let's hope for one thing at least. That this pandemic eventually becomes something human beings will be able to manage in the future. In the meantime I wish you and your loved ones to be safe and well.
That is all new to me - we never hear of local American issues. I guess similar happens over here, but I can’t know. I’m not convinced that the media is entirely corrupt though, well, far from it. As for “truth” and “facts”, well - they’re the stuff of science. Life is more about feeling and viewpoints.
As I said, I can’t be partisan because I don’t trust politicians - people whose motivation I can never really know. There must be genuine public servants in those corridors of power, of course, but so many, it seems to me, get a sniff of the lucre and the high life and become corrupted, forgetting their once noble motives.
Steve
It's funny. I was talking to my neighbor awhile ago and she had been talking to her tax man before me. They were discussing what you posted. How corrupt our politicians have become. So many times a new young congressman gets elected, full of ideas and promises. As soon as the older ones get a hold of him and he sees how quickly he can become rich, all those new ideas and promises disappear. I've seen it happen too many times as has my friend and her accountant. There was a senator from Nevada (one of our western states) several years ago who was literally bankrupt when he was elected. Within a few years he was a multi millionaire. Happens with them all. My friend and her accountant and I would all like to know how they are able to accomplish that. It's because they are making promises. But not to the American citizens. It's all the underhanded dealings they make getting the worthless bills passed for their friends. You get this bill passed for me I'll make it lucrative for you. That's part of the swamp. I can't trust politicians either. They work now only to benefit themselves. They love the power. And yes much of our media is corrupt. So many of our anchors on the "world news" are very biased anymore. Even some of our local news anchors although not quite as bad. I've noticed their biasness getting worse over the last decade. I grew up with news reporters like Walter Cronkite. He reported the news with the facts. He didn't spout his personal opinions about any politicians or criticize any of them like they do now. Although the politicians deserve to be criticized nowadays but it's not the news anchors job. I just want the news. I'll form my own opinions. Which you can see I do😁. So many things have changed for the worse. It's frightening. All the rioting and violent protests. Nothing to do with Trump. All the protests were of the hatred of the police. Another long story. I'm sure you've probably seen all that on your news. This country is in chaos. And I'm afraid it's going to get worse. I'm actually kind of glad our nations capital was stormed. Now our politicians know how tired the American people are of their false promises. And they forget they don't own Congress. The American people own Congress. They are paid to be our public servants. We are not theirs. We pay their salaries and over the years they think the people should do as they say. Nope. People I have talked to think there could be a revolution in the near future. Hard to say. I don't know.......
By now you've probably fallen asleep reading this. All I know is I'm very frightened for the future of this country. Of your country. Of our world.
Please take care of yourself and your loved ones. That's most important in these times. 😔
I haven't fallen asleep at all, I have been fascinated by the discussion and in particular your defence of Trump. Please don't be offended if I say you are far more knowledgable, reasonable and articulate than the man himself.
Hello Irene. If you have time you can read the post I sent to Ppiman below. It's a long one!😌 But you should find an answer to your post also somewhere in there.😕Thank you for the compliment. For someone like me, who has a high school diploma and one year of of what we call community college that's quite something. ☺
Please don't fall asleep reading my post below. Although you might. 😂
Take care and be safe. Stay well. Your loved ones too.
It’s good to read your views and learn something of local American issues.
I’m afraid I do blame Trump, just as I blame Johnson. I feel that they set a standard that those under them emulate or react to.
In Johnson, we have a bumbling ditherer and, as a result, many people’s “lockdown” adherence and behaviour, including that of many factory owners, has been poor, forcing their workers to catch Covid, effectively, then take the disease home to their family and onto grandparents and into hospitals.
Trump was different. No bumbler, like Johnson, but still a “talker” and an image merchant. It seemed to me that he pumped up the mythical “frontiersman” image of many of your immature testosterone-driven white males. Many of them act as if they carry chips on their shoulders, some maybe from failing academically, others for all kinds of other reasons, all belittling their self-worth. Trump made them believe in themselves and they felt empowered - mostly online as “keyboard warriors” - to show their resentment of those that most belittled them: the educated, confident and successful in society.
It’s a viewpoint, anyway!
Steve
Sometimes I think in the end Trump just gave up and became like so many of those in Congress who fought against him. I didn't like that he didn't always control what came out of his mouth. But I know that democrats really wanted Hillary to be elected and when she wasn't the dems decided to make it hard for him to do anything. And he did accomplish good things. For the first time in decades illegal immigration was getting under control. This country can no longer keep open arms to thousands of people who come across our borders. We simply cannot afford it. Ellis Island no longer exists. We have no idea how many illegals are actually here. Many still sneak across the borders undetected. And Trump was right. Many are criminals and they bring their illegal drugs. Have for decades. Of course not all are criminals. Many do want a better life. But many never show up for the hearings they are supposed to attend. They just disappear. I'm all for legal immigration. If they want to work hard to become citizens, yes. But when you are just more people who take and take from the taxpayers and never become legal, NO. You should see the tunnels that have been found through the decades where they have brought drugs into our country. It's mind blowing. I'm sure there's other tunnels yet to be found. Trump had a pretty good handle on Iran. Iran has been enriching uranium. Why would a basically third world country need uranium. To make a bomb. Plus selling it to Russia. Neither are our friends. Trump at one point made some headway with North Korea. Unfortunately another country one can't put any trust in. Kim was just playing. And he pulled out of WHO. Good because the USA was paying too much for too long. Same with the U.N. Why should we continue to carry everyone else because they don't pay their way. Now Biden will undo what good Trump was able to do and set this country back. He'll raise taxes even more and tax things that have never been taxed to pay for the mess he'll create. He's going to forgive student loans. So many college kids take out loans to go through school. When they graduate they are mired in debt with high interest rates. Loans that can take years to pay off. Well those students will be in for a rude surprise. My friends tax accountant told her those loans will be considered income, even though they are "forgiven" 🤔 and those students will then have to pay taxes at a high tax rate. In the long run, those students will have been better off trying to pay down their original loans. A tax accountant would know about this. Our tax laws are in for some big changes. Trump had lowered taxes for a lot of people. Now their taxes will be through the roof. People have been leaving places like New York and California to get away from high taxes that are getting even higher. Now it won't matter. So long story short I really don't think people, especially in other countries, have gotten a full account of what Trump has done. The Democrats pushed somebody who started out doing good things for our country. And he pushed back and they didn't like it. So I don't blame him for not attending the inauguration. Not the way he was treated and Melania was treated so badly. They didn't give her a chance at all. So my friends, there is so much you don't see or hear. It seems you get news that is so biased from this country. That's too bad. Because what affects this country will affect your and many other countries in this world. I have lost a lot of faith in our politicians over the years. Now I have none. 😞Those you call "keyboard" warriors come from all walks of life. And I have always believed that most people do the best they can for who they are. The people who do jobs like factory jobs and cashier, work construction, babysit children, are the ones who made it so others could become rich. Without those people, others can't have a business of their own. My father worked in construction and was looked down upon. Belittled. He worked hard. He was discriminated against more than once. That's another story. We're Caucasian. So blacks and other minorities aren't the only ones discriminated against.
God gave us all brains. When the virus was known to be so bad I didn't need someone to hold my hand or tell me to follow the guidelines. Yes Trump could have done better being a role model for others. Was he the only one? No. Each of our states has a governor. Each city has a mayor. Many of them failed. And some of them were democrats. I think it was correct for Trump to tell the state leaders to put protocols in place for their states. There was no reason for the federal government to hold the hands of each governor or mayor. As governor or mayor you should take charge. If you can't find another job. I've got to stop. I could go on forever. But my gut feeling is that most of you in other countries are getting a one-sided biased account of what happens in the USA. And I also believe we in the USA get the same from yours and the other countries. When I stop and think about what the news here reports on other countries, it's usually the bad things one ruler or the other has done. And I think my goodness, surely those rulers have done something good for their countries. 😕 So maybe biased news and propaganda is also a world wide pandemic. 😞
So, Steve, there's my viewpoint. Certainly a long one!! Do you think I may have made the Guinness book of World records for the longest post?! 😂😂😂 I'm glad that we can share thoughts and our beliefs and hopefully, at least I do believe so, we don't have to be angry or hate one another because we disagree with some things. I wish everyone could be more civil to one another. But I'm afraid that's not going to get any better any time soon along with this pandemic. On the other hand. More places in the USA are opening up to give vaccines. But it will still take a long time to get everyone vaccinated. My neighbor in her early 80's (and in good health 😍)got the first dose of Moderna yesterday morning. Haven't heard back from her yet if she still feels okay. She was fine last night. She'll get her 2nd dose as prescribed within 3-4 weeks. Her neighbor across the street from her is in the medical field and he explained the second dose is more liable to make you sick. He said the 2nd dose is like getting a double dose. It's much stronger than the first. I'm trying to hold off until the Johnson&Johnson comes out. It's only one shot and supposed to be 90 some % effective. I had a bad time with our pneumonia shot this last fall. We get two of those shots a year apart. Like the double dose vaccines, I'm thinking the 2nd pneumonia shot was much stronger since it covers more strains than the first shot. Maybe why I was sick with the 2nd shot. Okay enough. Please stay well. Your loved ones too😔.
Well, I'm not going to try to argue with you because it's clear you've found answers for your views that have convinced you more than anything I can ever say will. I would just point to a couple of things that came to me as I read that ought to make you think a bit more about some of your conclusions.
Iran. It is not a "third-world" country. I've known Iranians, I've taught Iranians and I've worked alongside Iranians. Few, it is true - but enough. I've also seen amazing movies made by Iranian directors, both women and men. I know the intellectual quality of Iranian academics, doctors and medical work. I don't approve of its government or its theocratic control, but that's the way things have gone in much of the Muslim world. But it isn't third world. Iran is surely trying to develop an industrial base to try to move away from its reliance on oil. They don't want to be another Venezuela; and, yes, I dare say that it's also (perhaps...) trying to protect itself from Saudi and Israel.
Drugs and illegals. Drug barons don't enter the US illegally; and American drug takers freely choose to buy their drugs and don't seem much to care who supplies them. But I'm sure you are right that "We simply cannot afford [illegal immigration]". But is that the biggest issue facing America? Is your life reduced financially or otherwise by the presence of illegal immigrants? I can't know the answer, but I know so many people over here who go on about the same issue, but whose lives have only ever been enriched by foreigners working, for example, in our hospitals and similar (not illegals, of course, but the numbers of those are, relatively speaking, small). Focusing an electorate on illegal immigration is simply the most emotive thing a populist politician could ever do in these times. It was easy to whip up people into a fervour over it. Our government pretty much did the same over immigration from the countries of Eastern Europe.
Anyway, it's been good to chat over something other than heart arrhythmias!
Steve
I stand corrected on Iran. 😔 Thank you. And yes illegal immigration is a huge problem in this country. And seems to be a losing battle. When they are given free healthcare even though they are illegal, when we have many of our American citizens who go without healthcare, that does not sit well with me and many others. Church organizations help illegals find housing. Get them financial help. Get them jobs. Or get them welfare. In 2019 it was reported over 130 billion dollars was spent on illegals. One year. You have no idea what a burden it is. It's a problem that has been swept under the rug, mostly when the democrats are in office because the illegals vote. They aren't supposed to but they do and get away with it. More corruption within our system. You really cannot fathom how corrupt politics have become in this country. And everything that falls within it.
Oh yes drug barons do enter this country illegally. I refer back to the tunnels I talked about. Not all of them make headlines. They come and go freely using their tunnels. Some of the tunnels were pretty high-end. With air conditioning! We only have so many border agents for thousands of miles of border so it could be years to find all these tunnels. Once found, new ones are dug. There are marijuana farms in the mountains and forests set up by some of these drug barons.Growing marijuana they sell right here in the USA! I could tell you a real life story about that too.
You're right about those who use the drugs. If there were no addicts there would be no problem. It's really sad. But it's an illness and for too many, hard to conquer. My oldest brother was an alcoholic. Alcoholism is an addiction too. He tried for many years to break his addiction. Joined AA. Would do so well only to slide back down. He had grown children and grandchildren. I found him dead on his living room floor 3 days before my birthday in 2006. All his family tried to help. But the alcohol had him and took him.
And I'm afraid, as many are here, once Biden reverses the good that Trump did to try and curb immigration, it will be easier for the drugs to flow across the border. No we can't continue on this path. But until all our politicians are in agreement about the problem it will continue til the end of time. And I'm not holding my breath for them ever agree. 😒 It's amazing too, all the different ways drugs are brought into this country.
Oh we have many foreigners here from everywhere around the world. Some very good Drs come from India. The problem is too many come and never become legal and the govt doesn't keep track of them. And businesses hire them because they will work for less money and the business owner won't rat them out. There are factories around the country who employ illegals. I know farmers in the state I originally come from who hired illegals. And many pay taxes. But they are not legal. And I don't understand why. Yes it does cost a fee to become legal. But their lives would be so much better if they became legal. No longer living in the shadows wondering every day if you're going to be found out. And with this pandemic many illegals are really having a bad time.
I can only say you gave me a good education about Iran and I'm trying to educate you on the corruption in my country and the host of problems that it has caused. I guess sometimes unless we actually live in it we can't know.
Yes thanks for the nice chats. I think it's good sometimes to get away from the Afib and arrhythmias. I find it relaxing. So Steve, I still try to have hope. Take care and be safe.
Hi all! Actually I haven’t been following our group for almost a year mainly because Covid has changed my daily habits. It’s been so interesting to read these posts by all of you delightful people and I must say I’m very impressed that everyone has been courteous and informative. I live in the US and am so interested in reading what other countries opinions of our politics are. It’s interesting to me to learn that those living outside the US know so much about our goings on and honestly besides watching the Crown I know very little about yours. It’s been said that our media has contributed to a lot of fake news and I must agree. The media here has been bought by the powerful elite Democratic Party. They have worked together for more than four years to destroy the Republican agenda and they used Trump to do it. Trump is a businessman and not a politician and they didn’t like that because they were afraid he would uncover all the illegal doings of the Dem party . Its been very hard to watch the hatred unfold and I’d like to speak to all here that the American people are better than this. We are a nation of people who believe that all have an equal chance at creating an life of success and happiness. We have compassion and brilliance that we share with the world. We are so much better than our politics. I truly love this conversation that was started here and I hope we can continue because it’s important that we all add to the conversation. This is our beautiful majestic world and we share it together. I wish to all that we are safe and that all of our countries will do all they can to lead us forward and out of this awful pandemic. It’s been a long road and there’s more to come I’m afraid but like our AFib has taught us, be brave and keep fighting ! Be well all
👍😔
I wonder how many Polish and Romanian nurses have gone back because they were made to feel so unwelcome by Brexit?
I'm not sure of the numbers, but my son is married to a lovely and very hard-working Romanian nurse. 
She's been in the UK for over ten years and she likes it here - especially yesterday's snow!
Our grandson, three in April, is simply gorgeous. She works at our local hospital and on her ward, staffing is under great pressure. The current covid crisis is making everything worse with frequent staff shortages owing to self-isolation and the inability to travel to see the family. In the many years I have known her she hasn't had a day off and will move heaven and earth to get in on time, whatever the weather. On her ward there are Bulgarian, Spanish, Italian, Filipino nurses, too. She tells me that none of them are happy with Brexit.
Steve
I think there are going to be fewer and fewer people happy with Brexit including many who voted for it! Especially when it finally hits home to them that there are no sunny uplands and that "sovereignty " is a poor exchange for job losses and empty shelves in the shops.
Sovereignty was always ours and a myth in the minds of those who see it as otherwise.
Such a shame!
Steve
Well I suppose he wasn't enthusiastic enough about bleach injections😂
Sadly, being social media, where worthwhile debate is nigh on impossible, there's nothing I can say except that yes, I do trust Melinda and Bill Gates, at least in so far as I need to. It was a while ago now, but I've seen the results of philanthropists' work in Egypt and Palestine, and the children's lives that were transformed by such generosity. It's hard to deny prima facie evidence of that kind.
Charles Dickens created Scrooge to show the rich how important generosity towards the less privileged is, and that was a very long time ago - and yet his legacy can still be seen today. Rich people can be moved by the plight of children especially, and the poor and displaced as well.
Steve
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