- the sensation seems to be internal and could be described as an internal vibration, “quivering” or shivering sensation. Nothing can be detected if I place my hand over the area.
-it started after about 10-15 minutes of lying down for the last two nights.
- it lasted all night. Around a year ago it was of much shorter duration, and episodes occurred weeks or months apart.
- it is generally alleviated by getting up and moving around. It also seems to be improved by lying on the back.
- Kardia does not indicate an irregularity such as atrial flutter, nor can this or atrial fibrillation be detected by checking the pulse manually.
- the exact source isn’t obvious. It seems to emanate from the left side and sometimes can be felt at the elbow.
- most recently it was noticeable the night after a bout of PAF the night before.
- All I have been able to find by googling are alarming things like “internal vibration” from things like MS. I did wonder, however, if it was a neurological problem caused by PAF over time.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
41 Replies
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Whatever I say, it will be a guessing work, that's clear. But, if the ticker is able to make problems, and yours definitely is, than this sensation should be heart related. The number of possible arrhythmia is so large, that even the MDs sometimes have the problem to understand what really is going on with the heart. If the Kardia shows sinus rhythm, than it most probably is sinus. Maybe, but just maybe, your atria are preparing for larger nasty business and are just performing something like prolonged palpitations or PACs in the first phase...
in reply to
It’s difficult to be sure. As I said, I have had this in the past and posted about it here. For the last two nights the episodes have been all night however- formerly the episodes were shorter and months apart. When I mentioned it to the cardiac nurses they were dismissive. It terminated this morning when I turned onto my back.
I suspect that it is more general but connected which I would suggest, may be more ANS which is a complex, integrated, system which controls all automated functioning that we are not aware of such as heart and digestion and sleep. It could be hormonal imbalance - endocrine or neurological - ANS - Sympathetic Nervous System dysfunction or reacting to another dysfunction of the very complex systems in the body. All the above are linked to heart function as ANS is involved in heart rate and rhythm. EG: when you are anxious, your HR rises.
There are over 60,000 known and differing malfunctions of the body. I think it is a big ask to have doctors know everything, all of the time. And the trouble is that they haven’t the time to investigate everything and they tend to specialise or have special interest. I know in our GP practice if I have something I need to speak to a doctor about, I look for the one who has the special interest or the specialised training in that area. GPs are just that, general practictioners and see mainly minor ailments and have to refer to specialists to go further and if they don’t have evidence to back up a referral, nothing happens in my experience.
I know the sensation you describe and am used to it and I usually take it that I must rest and recuperate or that I am lacking in a nutrient. I have a neurological/muscular condition which is often called MS’s little sister - Myasthenia gravis. I am not saying you may have this as it is a vey rare condition however because I have it I have been researching the complex systems and the cross overs, I have become an observer of my own experiences to better correlate what happens and when.
If it lasted all night then I would suspect it to be related to your body being unable to switch off - meaning you would be unable to go into repair and recuperation sleep.
Are you vitamin D deficient? I stumbled across a quite interesting theory about this recently which is connected to VitD deficiency. To go into the right sort of sleep the body needs to be paralysed so a switch needs to be thrown. The switch is a neurotransmitter called Acetycholine. When there is a vitamin imbalance between VitD & B vitamins not enough Acetycholine is produced so you don’t go into paralysis required for REM sleep which is when the body repairs itself.
This is just a theory, not proven or clinically trialled but for me makes complete sense so I started taking VitD at night and improved sleep and no more trembling. Just a thought.
I have been taking vitamin D daily during the Covid crisis. I could switch to taking it at night quite easily. The “quivering” terminated this morning when I rested on my back (and didn’t return when I turned into my side again). I have been very stressed about the recent PAF and things like visual migraines, so I am hoping it’s anxiety. I just hope it’s not neurological or an indicator of another heart problem. I seem to remember Dangerousdriver and others mentioning that they had had basically the same thing when I posted a year ago.
I have had this 'internal wobbling' too but not for as long as you. Nothing showed on my Kardia either - so it cannot be electrical in origin. I agree with CD that something is lacking in your body and setting off this reaction. It could be stress, worry, nutritional deficiency or simply lack of proper sleep.
One way I found to cope with nightime heart gymnastics was to prop myself up on pillows and do a relaxation exercise and once that worked for me, it made coping easier next time.
I have just returned from a walk and notice it now as I am sitting in an armchair. It is most odd. I will speak to the GP on Monday if it hasn’t gone away. I don’t think its a nutritional problem as I eat fairly well-lots of salads and the like. It could be stress however. Thanks for your reply. If it starts tonight I will try to prop myself up as suggested.
Hi Sam 😊 I get a strange quivering / vibrating sensation in my chest but it only lasts for a few moments and usually happens before I go to sleep or when I wake but that might be because it is easily noticed when I am laying still.
I ignore the sensation and carry on, I get so many strange sensations with P-AF and having got over the 'oh my god I am dying' every time they happen I find it is the best thing to do or I would spend my life worrying 😊
I get odd looks when trying to describe the odd sensation to Doctors , I remember when I first got P-AF and told a doctor about the strange sensation I get in my throat like a child stifling crying , none of the doctors bothered to tell my that odd sensations in the throat are not unusual in P-AF and may be caused by changes in blood flow through carotid artery.
...Sam 😊 when I researched this sensation before, some call it 'buzzing' I found it is very common particularly in people with AF but there doesn't seem to an explanation as to the cause.
I have now noticed a sort of buzzing sensation in the left foot! So I’m hoping that this will turn out to be anxiety rather than something more serious. I will continue to monitor it. Thanks for the information.
Buzzing in the foot sounds more like peripheral neuropathy which can present as buzzing, electrical zapping , insect stings,feelings of burning or freezing ,pins and needles or the sensation of ants crawling over the skin. I have had all of these manifestations of PN from time to time . Try to relax and not worry too much about it. Anxiety about odd physical sensations can often make them worse.
I don’t think I have PN as I had a routine “pin” test when I went to the podiatrist a few weeks ago. It could well be anxiety-my anxiety always mounts after PAF which I had a few days ago. On the other hand it might be the heart. Quite a few people here seem to have had something similar, but it’s not possible to know if their experience of the phenomenon is the same as mine.
Hello Sam, Well I know that feeling well, in fact I’ve just got up and I had it in bed when I awoke. Shivering is exactly what it feels like, but masses of tiny quick shivers / quivers, but not longer “ I’m cold” type shivers....it seems to happen when I’m in bed and I notice it as I come to.definitely notice it more as I awake, It can happen also if I have an afternoon nap and I notice it them. I have tried to explain it to the cardio but he just shrugs but like he shrugs when I explain ectopics , it’s a kind of “that’s nothing” kind of shrug.I’m just accepting they are just a phenomenum, I may be wrong , but I’ve had this going in many years, a good ten years, in fact many years before I had AF diagnosed, but there again I think I may have had AF a lot longer before I was diagnosed.
This question was brought up here a couple of times these past years and I don’t think anyone came up with a conclusion.....for me it’s nice to know others get it if I’m honest. So after typing all this I’ve no solution sorry Sam,
Funnily enough I seem to go in phases and I’m getting it a lot lately. It never happens in my daily life only when I’m awaking either from a nap in afternoon which is rare but in the morning always as I just come to and am waking up, I think I normally grab my glass of water and it gradually goes.....lasts ten mins i think, but it could have been goung in ages before I awake I wouldn’t know . Question is does it happen as I wake or does it happen way before and that’s why I awake,,...quite honestly this is the first time I’ve given it much thought, as it’s gone in so many years and hasn’t affected me, I’ve just accepted it.Stress maybe the cause? I don’t know. But it’s happened years to me and hasn’t killed me, so I try not to overthink things now. It really doesn’t bother me.p as it’s gone on so long.
Sorry I can’t give solutions, Sam, please let us know if you find out anything.
Sam the sensation I get I describe as a buzzing or electrical pulse mainly on the left side of my body. It happens very infrequently and I am able to stop/control it with deep breathing exercise. It usually happens at night. The Dr scratched his head when I told him. One trigger for me was a liqueur alcohol but it has occurred at other times. I have just been put on Amitryptiline 25mg for neuropathic pain in my back and I have had 3 consecutive nights where the pulse has come on for no more than 30 seconds as I settle to sleep. One of the contraindications for the medicine is arrhythmia so will need to check with the GP. I take Omega 3 and VitD supplements. Reducing stress, eating well, living life and having a strategy or technique to have some control of the sensation works for me. I hope between you and your Dr and the good people on this site you find some relief. Best Wishes Lee
Probably far too simplistic. I now to the knowledge on this site. Have you cut out caffeine. More especially after 1800. Also as I'm a student of Tai Chi 'Chi Gong. When I have any ectopic or other strange feelings on my chest I massage the end of my little finger. Also, translated into English- the Great Abyss. Found on your wrist. Turn palm up. At the side of your wrist nearest thumb, feel for slight indent very near edge of wrist. If you follow the line on your palm that curves around your thumb, it might help. Proponents say massaging can help with anxiety, heart palpitations, chest discomfort.Nothing to loose try it.
I will certainly try this. Is it part of Tai Chi? I bought a video on Tai Chi but didn’t get very far with it-it’s the sort of thing you need a teacher for.
I noticed a similar thing after my first 14 hour afib attack. 2015. I take bisoprolo, rivaroxaban. What I did was remove all caffeine, alcohol, eat smaller meals, electrolyte drinks. Your heart 💓 has worked really hard and needs help 💝 to recover. All muscles require electrolytes to function. Cramps were a warning sign after the afib. I bought over the counter sport drink sis go pro from Tesco. I drink one a day if I have cramp or migraine aura. But one a day especially in summer. I still can't lay on my left side as it squashes the heart but at least I can sleep back and right without being propped up. Hope this helps some one.x
If I'm over tired it comes back. I have a few seconds of it when I first lay down to sleep or nothing at all. It is something to just manage all the time but looking after your health is a priority. I hope you find some answers.
I get this too--just as you described , a sort of rapid buzzing sensation in the region of my heart. It only happens at night when I lie on my left side and stops if I lie on my back or on my right side. It doesn't keep me awake and I have stopped worrying about it. Would be nice to know what is causing it though.
I was examined by my GP who said that everything was normal- it always is when I go to a doctor or hospital. She said the “quivering “sensation *could* be atrial flutter but was reluctant to discuss the implications of it was. Apparently the Holter test is the only way to tell. A Kardia ECG didn’t show any signs of flutter when she looked at it- but she was not clear on how reliable Kardia is for that purpose. She said that I must take anticoagulant, and, worryingly, said “I cannot say that you’d shouldn’t go to A and E if it happens tonight”(which it probably will).
Thanks for your reply.This is an interesting -if worrying -explanation. Some atrial flutter was detected on an ECG just over a year ago. I am wondering it if this has progressed since then. What is clear is that whatever the phenomenon is it 1. comes on when falling asleepor resting and 2. started in its present form after an episode of PAF a few days ago. I have also noted more ectopics and
some mild indigestion-like like pain with some -again mild- palpitations.
Usually when I get PAF, during the week or so afterwards the heart seems to ‘reset’ and I get little by way of symptoms. This hasn’t happened this time and I I have had this quivering (or fluttering) for 4 days in a row now.
I have this sensation at night, it feels like the top of my heart is vibrating really fast but the bottom of my heart is in normal rhythm. I was convinced it was atrial flutter (just as Palpman described) so I had a 24 holter monitor, nothing was picked up during the monitor even though I had the vibrations through the night, I was in normal sinus rhythm the whole time. I asked if it could be atrial flutter and was told it definitely wasn't so I'm trying to just forget about it now!My history is I've had SVT (AVNRT) since I was 18, and I had a successful ablation for that last year (I'm nearly 50 now). Apart from this wierd vibration my heart has been behaving itself!
My GP has ordered a 24 hour holter monitoring, but I don’t know when that will be. In the meanwhile I’m going to try to speak to my GP about it and also the cardiac nurses at Barts.
I am having a similar issue. I'm still waiting for further intervention but my EP says I have A-typical flutter/ tachycardia. This means that my atria is in flutter/tach but my ventricle is in sinus rhythm....hence the 'normal' ecg.its awful as I feel so ill but Kardiashows normal so feel im going crazy.
Good news is I can function as the flutter is not reaching the ventricles ( my rate used to be in the late 180s) But I feel I generally unwell and the quivering and odd feelings are still there. I am on the waiting list for another ablation which hopefully will ease the symptoms. My EP could diagnose this by a 'normal' Kardia reading I sent him x
I'm not saying this is what your issue is but may be worth looking into.
It could be the issue- I guess the only way to be sure would be to have a full ECG when it’s happening - which won’t be easy as it’s at night. On the other hand, I don’t have any symptoms of breathlessness when it happens (but then I don’t get them with AF). I’m going to try to get to the bottom of it today, but I have the feeling this will take time. For one thing, judging from what others have said, many medical professionals are dismissive of this sort of symptom.
I agree about the dismisiveness of professionals. I've been asked to take the pragmatic approach for months now but I just can't cope with it as anymore, it's mentally driving me crazy and feel awful.
I've written to my EP personally asking for help as don't seem to get anywhere elsewhere. I believe you have to really fight to get things done. First thing I would like is a holter monitor to see what is actually going on... xxoxx
I just spoke to a cardiac nurse at the local hospital. She was non-committal about what it might be. Unfortunately, as I have been discharged, I will have to be re-referred, which is likely to mean an extended wait before I am seen. I cannot even get through to the GP surgery.
I have a 2:1 block when in AFlutter so my Atrials pump at 300 while my ventricles are at 150. This in easier to pick up than a 4:1 block.On my ECG I can see the saw tooth of the P waves with 3 clear and one hidden behind the Q wave.
Although Kardia doesn’t claim to detect atrial flutter, I thought it might show the sawtooth pattern. I looked at the ECGs and they didn’t seem to be any different from the usual ones. Of course, this isn’t very good evidence that it isn’t atrial flutter.
I do not have a Kardia due to its inability to read Atrial flutter.It should however be able to record P waves while in flutter. The waves should be of equal distance and shape and if not then it would be Atrial Fibrillation.
I have just been seen by the GP who said that it was possible that the symptom was atrial flutter: I will need to have a Holter and see a cardiologist. I’m also going to have an ECG this afternoon. The GP looked at the Kardia report from this morning and said it didn’t show flutter. However, she didn’t seem to know whether the Kardia was accurate enough to pick up flutter (it doesn’tclaim to diagnose flutter). Is it accurate enough to give a reasonable idea of whether there is flutter present?
Hi Sam 😊 I have tried many times to capture the strange vibration on Kardia but it doesn't register anything odd and looks like 'my normal ' , My vibrations are 'slight' a gentle buzzing/stirring and not nearly as pronounced as I imagine Atrial Flutter to be.
This is Atrial Flutter as shown in the Alive core library
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