Just read a good article about the vagus nerve. Look up Uplift Connection. 12 ways to stimulate the vagus nerve. The article is written so anyone can understand it. I believe I may repeat myself sometimes but I think CDreamer has posted some about the vagus nerve. She's a good researcher. The article also has good pics of the vagus nerve. I know it has a bearing on Afib. We can stimulate the vagus nerve in different ways. There's an electric device that has wires that have electrodes on the end of the wires that attach to the tragus part of the ear to stimulate the nerve. Many of you probably know what I'm describing. But you can also just pinch the tragus between the index finger and thumb for a couple minutes and achieve the same effect as the electrical stimulator. Doing this helps with anxiety. Can lower your heart rate. Lots of things. Also read some of the comments posted after the article. One person who goes by Doc J ( said he is a retired Dr) posted about how Drs ignore the vagus nerve. And some reasons why. He'd be tarred and feathered by some I'm sure. But I believed everything he said. I have questioned both the cardio Dr I saw and my GP about the vagus nerve being irritated and causing Afib. Cardio Dr looked like he didn't know what the heck I was talking about. Then said his practice doesn't address the vagus nerve. ???????!!!! Do they not learn anything about the vagus nerve in med school? When it's the nerve that controls the whole body? The cardiovascular system???? Just makes me believe more and more Drs are on a tight leash from the insurance companies and big pharma. When I questioned my GP about the vagus nerve she just stared harder at her computer and ignored me. Reminded me of being in school and if the teacher asked one of the kids a question and the kid couldn't answer, the kid would stare down at their book. 😂😂 So pathetic that so many in the medical community don't address the vagus nerve. But then there's no money in telling a patient 12 ways to stimulate the vagus nerve. When money in their pockets is in pills and procedures .
Thanks.
Hard to believe Thanksgiving is almost here and then Christmas. It will be tough because of this pandemic. But people will make the best of it. It's nice so many have the technology to use computers and all these gizmos to see and talk to family and friends.😊 Hopefully one of the vaccines will be ready sooner than later. All of you stay safe and well.
Written by
belindalore
To view profiles and participate in discussions please or .
Thanks for that. Now that I've started to cut back my working hours I've created a time opportunity to read this. V interesting - however - its not something hard to sell to me. Thanks to my GP over 10 years ago for going to the limits to treat my AF ( triggered by food) I consulted a nutritionist and from that point, in conjunction with medication, I started to control my AF. Today my GP gets a glassy eyed look ( almost rolls her eyes too) when I mention the Vagal Nerve. Yet she cannot deny one fact - in the 8 years since I have been at her practice she has not treated me for AF - other than write repeat prescriptions and attend to other ailments.
Very interesting. TBH. after 15 months of research and battling Afib, I am now in severe fatigue mode with that approach, but the whole vagus nerve theory resonates with me and my symptoms.
Can I ask if you (or anybody here) has actually, definitively, achieved a positive result with vagus nerve stimulation, whether by dedicated machine, a TENS machine (maybe?), holding the targus on the ear, humming, gargling etc?
And, if yes, from anyone then please share!!
It seems like there are hundreds of possible causes/treatments/triggers and so many wrong, or at least not entirely right, paths to go down.
The motor analogy I like to use is the Vagus Nerve can be like a choke and get stuck out causing the engine to splutter (the AF). The solution may be '12 ways to stimulate the VN' (I haven't read that article yet) to get it moving smoothly again. However, I think stress and related digestion issues screwed up my VN so I am working on those first.
Really good analogy! It sounds like you're in the 'working on it and hopeful' phase, which it seems is where very many of us are. Are there any folks that have found the end of the rainbow? (I so hope that is NOT a good analogy!)
I do know that if I massage the nerve below my right ear lobe it will lower my pulse. I've read about the vagus nerve but other than what I just mentioned have not tried anything other than yoga which I find you have to be contortionist to do. It's all new to me. I don't know anyone who's done anything else. Sorry. I think it's worth pursuing though. Yes there are SO MANY triggers. Wish Drs would be more on board ........
Few years ago I was advised by a Chinese doctor and practitioner to running in front and behind my ears with forefingers and 2nd, easy to do. I was on Pankour Laut and my back was giving me heck, I had an amazing Chinese massage from this Dr. I suspect he knew of my irregular heart beat then as they do various tests. The massage wasn’t for the faint hearted 🤣 I’m a Complementary Therapist of many years, so I will use ‘complementary’ ways to help myself and anyone else who’s interested. Have practiced yoga, not so much in the last few years due to a bad knee that has now partially replaced. I have used breathing technique to relax myself for painful treatments with success. One time to relax me as I was having a procedure on my eye, the nurse took my BP twice, then fetched another machine, puzzled he said ‘what are you doing’ 🤣🤣 i was breathing using my meditative technique 🤣 I use acupressure on certain points, all just to alleviate and help me be calm. In my experience there are very very few Drs who are interested to know about how Complementary Therapies can help people or finding causes, to be fair, they don’t have a lot of time, but I wish they’d stop criticising those who are dedicated and trained therapists. We do have to study anatomy & physiology.
Drs just don't doctor anymore. I'm changing my Medicare plan and see if I can get better Drs. Not really hopeful. Our healthcare in the USA has regressed. I was talking to my friend this morning. The one who recently lost her husband. She said one of their Drs can't wait to retire in a few years because insurance is so restrictive and the hospitals are money hungry. The Dr said he's forced to order tests when he knows that he doesn't need them. But insurance says he has to. He said healthcare is only going to get worse in this country. It's already bad. He would be the type of Dr who would not criticize you. But most Drs here would think you're out of your mind. Sad.
🙄🙄 typical. They seem to totally forget they’re orthodox and the herbalists etc were the original medical practitioners, to which now they synthesise the herbs🙄
I’d love to mention Burke & Hare, who murdered to supply bodies to Robert Knox for dissecting. The Chinese use acupuncture to carry out operations. Horse for courses as they say. Here in the UK I also think our healthcare isn’t as it should be considering all the research and knowledge. Complementary Therapists are very very knowledgeable about the body and do do a lot of study.
I used to like osteopathic Drs because they studied more about the human body. But even they are not what they used to be. I think in some parts of the UK you know more than over here. You have the good and really bad Drs too. .. I think it's just all, like I said, become dictated by the insurance companies and big pharma here and why Drs don't Dr anymore. There's a website that shows how much money Drs accept from the drug companies. Hide it by saying they are giving lectures. Yeah right. It's so corrupt it stinks. Yes they forget how medicine started. They don't care as they all laugh on the way to the bank. 👿
Ours are retiring early as they have such good pensions and would only pay more i tax, so not viable to continue. Yes, I know some are pad positions with Pharma
Well here’s the thing; I went into an episode out of the blue at 6.05 pm this evening. I was due my evening 50mg Flec, so took that and then the PIP 50mg that I am also allowed AND I lay down and started rhythmically squeezing my left ear tragus at about the speed I wanted my heart to slow down to. Why like that, I don’t know, it just felt right. And it worked - the episode terminated in 25 minutes, one of the fastest ever! Now part of me says it is more likely to be the new meds regime, but for sure I will try the same next time. And TBH, it did feel as though my heart started to slow down coincident with the ear manipulation. Anyway, many thanks for the idea
Dear Belindalore - firstly, hoping you are feeling a little better.
Yes, I researched the ANS (Autonomic Nervous System of which the vagus nerve is just a small part) because I was a psychotherapist working with anxiety and other issues. The vagus nerve does affect AF for some people but it’s a little too simplistic to say it affects all. But, improving vagal tone seems to improve health & wellbeing generally - for sure.
There are many ways to improve vagal tone, without using any electrical equipment and as far as I can remember, the ear stimulation thing is more Energy Medicine techniques than mainstream. There were a few trials of the electrical stimulation device mentioned in this thread some years ago and as far as I remember, came to nothing.
AF is very complex, and many people believe it to be more of a symptom of other conditions, rather than a disease in itself. The trouble with medical school is that there is just not enough time to teach everything so it’s a bit like 1st grade, then you go onto choose a speciality and tend to know a lot about that and less about other stuff.
There are doctors who do nothing else but work with ANS but they are few and far between. What is interesting is that The UK STARS site - heartrhythmalliance.org/sta...
list many conditions affected by ANS - but the US version of the site doesn’t? Mmmmm...... Yet several of the best specialists in the world who study ANS and arrythnmias are American/Israelian/UK/Canadian doctors. There are now several centres in the UK, attached to cardiology departments who work with patients suspected of ANS dysfunction - but you need to be very ill to be seen by them!
ANS is also complex - PlanetryKim posted on another thread today signposting this site - a-fib.com/faqs-understandin... which has a good article on distinguishing between Vagal & Adrenal AF triggers.
Rather than focussing only on vagus nerve, try expanding your research to Autonomic Dysfunction, if you believe it is relevant to your type of AF. It’s not for everyone - as far as I can distinguish (and I’m not an expert, just someone doing this for a bit longer) the alert signs for ANS are:- very high or low BP, syncope or pre-syncope (see the STARS site as some of these condition are really serious and can cause sudden death), Vasovagal Syncope, PoTS and a few others. There is information on this site of how to be tested and how to live with the conditions.
It was my dentist who first notice I had ANS dysfunction when I had sudden black out when she gave me local anaesthetic (containing adrenaline) and tilted me back and I passed out. I was admitted to A&E with inappropriate tachycardia when I couldn’t lift my head off the pillow without my heart rate going through the ceiling and passing out. I endured about 30 doctors in the hospital coming down to witness it all saying - “never seen that before” but never offered an explanation! All autonomic dysfunction.
After going through years of getting nowhere I was put on a drug which is used to counter nerve gas exposure - Pyridostigamine bromide - not for Autonomic Dysfunction or AF - for a completely different reason. It wasn’t until I had been on this drug for about 2 years I realised I hadn’t had any ANS symptoms since I had started to take it.
If you go back through my posts to about 2016/17 you should find where I was writing about it.
Now back in the day this site stopafib.org - stopafib.org/stories.cfm talked a lot about vagal AF but it seems to be much more mainstream these days.
I think it is incorrect to suggest that doctors don’t know about vagal AF, although some may not talk about it or know about the significance in arrythmias. Dr Gupta (the UK based cardiologist York Cardiology) is one who does talks about this in one of his videos, however, it is only just being recognised generally as a major contributory factor in arrythmias. And a huge amount is not known about or understood yet. It takes a very long time for information to filter through and become mainstream.
Doctors are trained in accepting evidence based science and ‘Gold Standard’ clinical trials ie: ones that have had a lot of resources thrown at them to prove efficacy. And there are a lot of Doctors who work on the margins who work with people and get amazing results using really down to earth knowledge and experience and trial and error who tend to be passed over, always the ones to watch in my opinion.
The most recent work on ANS is about what Carneuny experiences - food intolerances and gut microbiome - which, interestingly, is often the start of ANS problems. You will find quite a few people on this forum list food/drink as triggers, whereas others exercise or rest or postural as triggers.
Everything is connected to everything else - that’s what annoys me about specialised medicine. If is outside of their area of expertise, interest is lost and the dots not joined up!
It sounds like you have spent many years on researching this versus my (admittedly quite intense!) 15 months or so.
I guess my question is: do you think it was worth it?!
Or is Afib so complex and the medical research so limited that even a committed individual of reasonable intelligence cannot hope to figure out the right path? Should we just take the drugs (where our health permits) and just get on with our lives, accepting some episodes will occur, rather than embarking on a time-consuming journey with no real expectation of achieving what we all hope for?
(And sorry, you'll have noticed from some of my other posts that I am currently experiencing Afib information overload and burnout!)
I think we all need to do what we think/feel is right for us. I do think it is so complex that despite thousands of hours of research by expert researchers, doctors and patients ‘we’ still haven’t come up with a definitive, one answer.
My approach is more to be an observer of myself, see what I find helpful and discard that I don’t find helpful. Drugs did not help me, they caused far more problems for me. Ablation helped, for a while.
I found lots of different things helpful in increasing my well-being but the only thing that seems to have sorted my AF is a pacemaker but that is considered last resort and expensive so I had to go through all the previous to get to where I am now, which is in a better but far from perfect place.
My approach was to keep a quite accurate symptom journal of my episodes, when they started and what I was doing when they started and list possible triggers. Then experiment to see if what you suspect correlates with your experience. It’s time consuming, needs to be methodical and at times, vey confusing and I am not sure it gets you to a different place AF wise, but it helped me feel as though I was doing something rather than sit and feel victimised by AF, I learned a lot along the way and managed to help a few others, I hope.
I was trained to be begin a journey with an enquiry - it’s more about the journey for me than arriving. Process is about learning more about ourselves and the world around us.
And it’s not for everyone.
Resting is as important as enquiry, said learned the hard way.
Thank you for your thoughtful answer. I naturally incline to your approach as well due to my background, but I sometimes (now) wonder if it is serving me well. Anyhow, fingers crossed that the meds work for me
Yes I knew you would know more about this subject. And the whole problem here in the USA seems to be and I keep saying it...Drs only want to use pills and surgery. They no longer try to get to the root of the problem. Aren't the least bit interested. And since I don't have any extra money to seek out Dr after Dr trying to find one who'll take an interest, I continue to suffer like so many others. It really seems the UK has much more interest in helping find out what Afib is all about. But I have read many in the UK struggle too because of their financial situation or where they may live in having access to better Drs. So some of us don't have it so easy and it's so frustrating. Thanks for the info. No you aren't a Dr but you know more than a whole lot of them. 😍 Take care.
I had looked at Afib. Seems they are mostly all about pills and surgery too. 😒
Part of the problem these days is that "evidence based" medicine is so often corrupted and is anything but. Doctors seem to read abstracts of RCTs but not the criticism of their methods or conclusions that can be found . I don't know if you have been following the Lancet / Surgisphere scandal. Ig is an interesting example of what is wrong with current medical publishing and "peer review".
Very interesting and good article CDreamer, compliments! I am just new on this forum, from the Netherlands, retired for couple of years, used to be a Public Health Educator / Health Scientist. Had one short period of Paroxysmal AFib couple of weeks ago after a swim workout plus sauna afterwards and very cold water dive ( kind of thermoshock I think) back on sinus rithm after 5/6 hrs. Now doing some research online especially on DOACS (Edoxaban) because I don’t feel like taking anti coagulation. I saw your interesting remarks, thank you for your work! 👍
Well that would give the old ANS a good work out! I am all for cold water immersion and used to do all you describe but have found that as I age, I need to go less extreme so avoid sauna but steam seems to be OK. I can’t swim in warm, indoor pools these days, even if they were open but am fine in cold water.
Re. Anticoagulants - I understand your hesitancy and I was very against them when I first was diagnosed but took them to have ablation, then after a year with no AF, my EP very reluctantly agreed that I could stop. I had a TIA so had no hesitations in restarting and staying on them.
If I might suggest you look at the evidence regarding anticoagulation and AF as I think it is now overwhelmingly accepted that if you have AF you must look at your risk factors for stroke and a CHADS2 score of 1 or more would indicate that you may look at the benefits v risks.
Don't know how to post a link. I'm not very good at that stuff. Just google Uplift Connect (not connection as I stated before) and it will tell you what to click on. Then you can go to the site and type in 12 ways to stimulate the vagus nerve and the article will come up. Hope that gets you there. Take care.
It’s a good article and explains vagal very well in simple terms and makes an important point:-
The vagus nerve uses the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, which stimulates muscle contractions in the parasympathetic nervous system. A neurotransmitter is a kind of chemical messenger released at the end of a nerve fiber, that allows for signals to be moved along from point to point, which stimulate various organs. For example, if our brain could not communicate with our diaphragm via the release of acetylcholine from the vagus nerve, then we would stop breathing.
FYI - the other condition I have - Myasthenia - produces antibodies which damages and destroys acetylcholine (the neurotransmitter) and the receptor cells on the muscle - which is why for me - Pyridostigamine bromide & the pacemaker - has helped me so much, not only the for Myasthenia but also with my heart.
Had I got there without my pushing, investigating and working with doctors who listened to me because I had researched - probably not.
Mmmm, could well be, whiplash?? Years ago as a teenager I fell on ice, skating for first time and out my neck out! Neck is never the same after and later had whiplash in a car shunt the vagus nerve does go up both sides of the neck, so could possibly be affected. How to find out, I do not know. I’m a Reflexologist, treating the body via specific areas on the feet. We can tell various things about the health of the body. I have been right on the majority to the surprise of the patient. I suspect I may be able to tell there is a problem with the neck, but not necessarily the exact problem because there could be many silicate symptoms to different disorders.
Actually probably a Chinese dr or maybe an acupuncturist as they test pulses in the body.
Yes I was thinking whiplash. I was in a head on and also a rollover. So very very possible. Going to a Chinese Dr or acupuncturist out for me. Insurance I have now doesn't cover either and my pockets pretty empty.😕 Thanks for all your info though.
Insurance companies here will only pay for certain ‘Complementary therapies’, Chiropractors, Osteopathy some many pay for Reflexologists. No the NHS won’t pay us, I’ve had a few ask. However, some Drs use acupuncture for pain relief, go figure! They are NOT a fully trained acupuncturist though, that takes at least 3 years study.
Wow that's strange. Here depending on how good your insurance is, insurance sometimes covers chiropractor and such. Never a holistic type of Dr. I've been trying to get a referral from my office to see a different cardio Dr. We get a directory that lists different Drs for whatever insurance you have. Not all Drs accept all insurances. The Dr I want to see is in my directory yet I can't get a referral because some Drs only use other specialists and such they want to use. It's stupid. The office gal at the Dr I want to see is going to call my GP and see if I can get a referral. I don't think she'll have any luck either. I'm going to call an insurance agent tomorrow and see about different insurance. There are literally hundreds of insurance plans in this country. It's absolutely nuts.
My first afib episode 8 years ago and starts after drink cold water from the fridge at 3:00 am. I asked to my cardiologist and no answer, to my EP who only said “ well maybe”. A second episode 1year later the same way. My ablation was done 6 month ago and my afib on-off with episodes after eat and my EP rx me flecainide 100 mg bid, cardizem 120 qd and xarelto Iam still thinking that i have a vagal-afib. What do you think? A magnesium supplement could help me?
I think a lot of people might have vagal Afib. Just my opinion. I think mine was caused partly from being dehydrated and anxiety and stress. And possibility of the vagus nerve. Mine could have been damaged years ago from having been in a couple car accidents. Plus I have terrible posture which can mess with the vagus nerve. Trying to fix that.
I do know that if my pulse seems too fast or is beating hard I can massage my neck under my right ear where the vagus nerve runs and it calms down. I also have a trick I do. I have a piece of a flannel sheet that I rolled up. Little over a foot long. And I put a rubber band around each end to hold it together. If I'm in bed and feel the pulse pounding I put it behind my neck and rub my neck back and forth on it. Calms the pulse down every time. So it's working on the vagus nerve that way too. My cardiologist has no idea what causes Afib. They don't want to take the time to read up on it and learn any new studies. My goodness they have to learn about the vagus nerve in med school???! It controls everything in our bodies. I asked mine about the vagus nerve and he said his practice doesn't get into that. I can't believe these cardio Drs aren't taking it seriously. Or testing for deficiencies of nutrients and electrolytes. But if you've read any of my other posts it's because they make money from pills and procedures. Not from finding a cause. Sad.
I just try to read whatever I can about Afib. I find also that doing stretching exercises helps. I am not limber enough anymore to do yoga as it is good. I take about 400 mg of magnesium a day. But I cut the pill I take in 4 pieces and check my BP before taking a piece as it lowers my BP. I may eat a little Himalayan salt with my meal and take the magnesium with my meals if my BP is a little low. For me I've found that vitamin C helps with arrythmia. So I take 500mg several times a day and before bed. Like many people here I've pretty much experimented and see what others have done. You can try magnesium. But start slow and see how you react. Also go to drugs.com or Rxlist.com to see if there's any interactions with the meds you're on with magnesium or any other supplements you might want to try. We have to be our own advocates since Drs seem to be of little help. Post your question again for the entire forum and you'll get lots of responses and good advice. Something else you can try is to massage the bottom of your feet. It helps calm. And there is some type of little machine that has clips that go on the tragus part of the ear. That little flap- like part of the ear in front above the ear lobe. The machine sends an electric current that calms the vagus nerve. But a simple way to do that is to pinch the tragus between the index finger and thumb for a couple minutes and that will calm down the nerve too. It will slow the pulse. Do the post to the whole forum like I said and you'll get lots of good advice. One more thing. I sent for a book by Dr Jack Wolfson. He was a well known cardio Dr in Arizona. He didn't like the way his patients weren't really getting better treating them with the pills and procedures. So he became a holistic cardiologist. He never tells people to stop taking their meds or anything. But people have to go to Arizona to see him and it's rather expensive. But he tests his patients for everything and believes that there are many causes for Afib and tries very hard to find the cause for his patients. He had a very interesting video program online about Afib not long ago. You had to pay for it so I put it on my credit card and finally paid it off as I'm low income. But it was worth every penny. I learned a lot. His book is "The Paleo Cardiologist". He only charges shipping and handling. If you're in the UK I have no idea how much that would be. I think it's also on Amazon. I think his website is drs wolfson.com. It's very informative. Hang in there. Take care and be safe. And happy Thanksgiving wherever you are.
Content on HealthUnlocked does not replace the relationship between you and doctors or other healthcare professionals nor the advice you receive from them.
Never delay seeking advice or dialling emergency services because of something that you have read on HealthUnlocked.
Vagus Nerve Question?
The Heart and the Vagus Nerve (animation)
Vagus nerve stimulation for reducing AF
Has anyone used a TENS machine to stimulate the Vagus nerve via the ear to reduce Afib?
Cardio- Gastric - Vagus nerve interaction
