patients that used Chinese Medicine had lower death rate (22%) to compare with nonusers (about 32%).

[No_stone_unturned]

neuroacupuncture.ca/chinese...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[cigafred]

I cannot read the name of the medicine. Equ?guard with the fourth letter a blur.

[Rolphs]

I’m curious whether anyone else on this forum takes Equigard? I am also interested in using Traditional Chinese Medicine as a complementary addition to SOC both for aPC and SE’s.

[Magnus1964]

Thanks for sharing. Great information.

[Ahk1 in reply to Magnus1964]

do you use it Magnus?

[Magnus1964 in reply to Ahk1]

Yes, my PSA remained stable for 3 1/2 years.

[No_stone_unturned in reply to Magnus1964]

Are you involved with zero prostate foundation? You look like a guy that was part of a focus group I did a couple weeks ago.

[Magnus1964 in reply to No_stone_unturned]

Not me

[Tall_Allen]

Why do you believe garbage like that?

[No_stone_unturned in reply to Tall_Allen]

The national institute of medicine is garbage? Unless I’m missing something, it was a retrospective trial of 1000’s of patients. I respect that you have a different perspective on a holistic approach to this disease, but not all of us in this group 100% trust that western standard of care that makes us sicker and lessens our Q.OL. Is the only option. I’m open to anything that helps me stay alive with best Q.O.L. I don’t think just pooping on anything you don’t subscribe is helpful to me. If you have insight as to why it’s garbage, I’m all ears. Ty TA.

[Tall_Allen in reply to No_stone_unturned]

NIH is a publishing clearinghouse. The 2018 article in Nutrients is just a review of lab studies and retrospective studies - nothing actionable for patients. The only article of interest is this one:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

It is a retrospective study. It raises the question - Do Taiwanese men who use traditional medicine pay more attention to their health? That likely explains the difference in survival. Research nerds call this "selection bias." It is why such studies are garbage for patients. They are only published to raise questions for further research - not for patients to take more drugs. Why do you think that overloading your body with alien chemicals is a good idea?

I have a very holistic approach. Holistic means body, mind, and spirit. You don't seem to understand the term. I may be wrong, but to you "holistic" seems to mean anything the cat dragged in.

Poo-pooing medical science is bad for your health.

[inter100 in reply to Tall_Allen]

I agree with Tall_Allen.It is more likely than not that patients using alternative therapies, especially when using them consistantly, are more likely to be individuals that are health concious.There is no disputing the facts relating to living heathily, in terms of good diet and exercise, will have a positive impact on general health and cancer survial rates and Qol.If the study selected only patients with poor diets and who did not undertake regular exercise, (we know with 100% certainty that resisitance exercise helps with the side effects of ADT), such a study would have more validity.

[billyboy3 in reply to Tall_Allen]

so true TA men do not abandon our medical system for alternative hocus pocus words. If snd a major breakthrough occurs, WE will all know it due to the money that will be made from our pockets. Until then be cautious when looking at a student like this, much more needs to be done!!!

[pilot52 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Hey TA, How do you really feel about it....?

[Derf4223]

I couldn't find any Equiguard and PCa trials. And for that matter, info on long term side effects.

[anony2020]

Not sure how this fits in but I am told that the majority of Chinese med is meant to boost male hormone and fertility. It is a culture/historical thing. Kind of works against ADT it seems if that is true?

Dont mind me. I am a layman.

[Grandpa4]

in general we use retrospective studies to develop hypothesis but the real data is a placebo controlled trial. For now I will wait for the trial.

[treedown]

I read similar things like this, might have been one of the same. I brought a copy to my second opinion at a center of excellence. Suffice it to say I never started on Chinese medicine but I did do acupuncture. I am starting it again next week since the SEs with Xtandi seem higher than expected from my last tour of HT with Zytiga when I did it last.

[pd63]

If I bought all the supplements/herbals etc.that are on the market I'd have to get my house extended for more storage.P.S. The Chinese be it mainland or Taiwan are awful for using banned animals products in their witches brews, tiger body parts/rhino horn/pangolin and so on

[binati]

Unfortunately in our anxiety to either rid ourselves of this disease or get some relief from it we are apt to believe many things that ordinarily we wouldn't. It is human nature. However, there is some logic in the testing protocols in modern medicine. At least when something is tested rigorously using statistically sound methods we can have greater reliance on them. We can try all types of other 'remedies' but should not have great expectations of any success. I know that I read everything that comes out for PCa treatment very assiduously but I also try to temper my desire to rush out and try them.

[No_stone_unturned in reply to binati]

I agree for the most part in principle, however the fda approved drugs I take make me sick and is not stopping the progression of my cancer. If it worked for me, I wouldn’t be searching for other options, bottom line is it’s all a “practice” and for me atleast it’s a exercise of risk management no matter what rabbit hole I decide to go down. I think for ppl like us, nothing should be off the table. The same caution I take with alternative medicine is no more or less that I take with conventional medicine. With all that said, one of the many benefits of this forum is to share information and get personal experience, opinions and advice to help with that risk assessment. I appreciate all of you, for all of it. Thank you.

[London441 in reply to No_stone_unturned]

I always like to keep an open mind, but saying ‘the FDA approved drugs I take make me sick’ is too vague to be of value. What drugs and what sicknesses? All of us who have taken ‘FDA approved drugs’ for this disease are aware of 2 things: 1. they work, and 2. They have side effects. The challenge is to tolerate the sides so the drugs can do their job. Simple but not easy. What have you tried other than simply declaring that ‘they’ make you sick?

[No_stone_unturned in reply to London441]

Lupron, firmagon, Zytiga, hot flashes, nausea every hour. Sweat like I took a shower in my clothes. Sick? Yes. Tolerable? No. I assume by your tone, that you do not suffer as I do or you’re able to tolerate it better. Either way, im happy for you and wish you continued success.

[London441 in reply to No_stone_unturned]

No tone intended, and neither of us can assume the degree of suffering experienced by the other. I was asking a question, which you didn’t answer: What efforts have you made to mitigate the side effects? What are your exercise habits?

[No_stone_unturned in reply to London441]

I believe it’s all listed in my profile. Asked and answered, but here’s some more answers for you

I exercise everyday with Heavy resistance training 3x a week. My bmi is 24.6. Clean eating, estrogen gel, reading, meditation, journaling, antidepressants (tapered off), anything and everything that helps me feel like a human. Please pm me if you have any more questions. I’m starting to feel like your challenging me, just for the sake of challenging me, However without knowing you or your personality, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that your trying to add to the discussion and not just being adversarial because of your disposition on the subject. Is that fair?

[London441 in reply to No_stone_unturned]

Fair and accurate! I didn’t read your profile, sorry about that. I was indeed trying to get a complete picture as possible.

Your habits are obviously good. Hopefully you are getting high quality cardiovascular training as well as the weights. 24.6 BMI is in general quite reasonable although I’m sure you know it’s composition that matters much more.

Since you were diagnosed young, do you know what your baseline testosterone was? I suspect perhaps it was high enough that the ADT induced the predictably dramatic contrast I’m quite familiar with.

So many men starting ADT are either substantially older than you (and thus have age-diminished T) or have low T levels outright due to poor physical health or just naturally. The contrast usually isn’t felt by them, at least not nearly to the same degree. I’m sure you know all this.

[No_stone_unturned in reply to London441]

Thank you, yes I discovered after the first year or so that this was my new normal despite my mo saying that my body will eventually adjust. Here I am 3 years later and it did not. I’m not being hyperbolic when I say that standard of care for me has been torture. I went off lupron for about a year and substituted estrogen gel which was a major game changer. Unfortunately once I went castrate, the need for a trial was necessary, but unfortunately the sponsors required me to be on a “SOC” adt for 6 mo b4 they’d allow me to participate. Despite the fact that the estrogen gel accomplishes the same t suppression with little/tolerable SO’s. That’s the game whether I like it or not.

They did not test my T prior to treatment. I wish they had, and I wish I knew what I knew now. Another case for being our own advocates. I’m not against Dr.’s or pharma per se. They are here to help and they work within the limitations/liability and “first do no harm” measures that they have to strictly adhere to. But let’s call it for what it is… Most professionals in this field aren’t non profits or doing it for the love of medicine. Profit and reclaiming their investments is the #1 priority. Therefore, imo we must see the industry for what it is. I’m eyes wide open to what is beneficial to me and what is only beneficial to them. I did not feel like my MO truly appreciated how much I was suffering and/or was constrained to offer any relief beyond SOC. This is what ultimately led me to this group and beyond. I am much better now for it. Thank you drs.

[billyboy3]

I would want to know more about this study, much more than especially anything that comes from China

[Tall_Allen]

They aren't experimental.

[bryson43]

Thanks for raising this subject which deserves support As a long term PC survivor have used various forms of Chinese traditional medicine as complimentary treatments to traditional drugs. I have had success but of course no double blinded clinical trials to support my argument

[GeorgeGlass]

I support you no stone unturned. It’s a strange society we live in, where people run around saying that you don’t trust the medical science just because the info didn’t come from their favorite sources. Keep researching and helping the rest of us. Disregard the trolls and the censorists.

This is my take on how guys on this site keep making this group less useful by the day: I replied with this to another guy who tried to shut me down: “When someone trolls this site and shuts down any kind of treatment ideas other than big pharma, then they are not doing what’s best for prostate cancer patients. Start doing some research before trolling. Plus, I’ve never even heard of you before. I’ve been contributing to this site for five years and have over 100 useful posts about prostate cancer. I support the men on this site that think for themselves, and who research, all the facts and science, not just the manipulated studies that are all funded and conducted by the nih and the big pharma companies. Sure, some of the studies are useful. I read and track all of them, but there are many other ways to fight the beast, and if you troll guys who have other ideas, then you discourage other men from being involved. Involvement brings hope and motivation to most men. Those out of the box complementary treatments work well for many men, and neither you or anyone else can prove that they don’t. ”

Keep fighting

George

[lookingforamiracle]

I have learned a lot on this site about useful supplements, mostly to support liver, kidneys, heart and other systems at risk or under direct attack due to the soc. I learned most of this from brothers who have been run off this site or who left in frustration. I want to see everything that everyone finds and is willing to share. I accept responsibility to do my own follow up research and make my own decisions, preferably without ridicule or disdain. Thank you No stone unturned for bringing this to our attention.

[JRPnSD]

NPR had a piece this weekend citing how easy it is to get a "research" paper published when in actuality little to no actual science/research had been done. I hate to think what the landscape of papers will look like given the rise of AI. I would refer people to institutions like ASCO, NCI, etc. for some level of peer review and verification when reading a "study". There are so many patient resources being wasted on these half-baked treatment "concepts". I serve as a volunteer patient advocate and sit through long detailed meetings with researchers and physicians that are spending their lives in the cancer field, reviewing proposed studies and commenting on how they can be improved before qualifying for funding. Unfortunately one needs to do extensive homework before committing to a treatment path....as there are lots of questionable "information" sources out there that have yet to be properly vetted.

Wishing you all a safe journey.

JRP, MPH