Elon/Tass: This may be interesting for... - Cure Parkinson's

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Elon/Tass

Squarepushr profile image
9 Replies

This may be interesting for those who follow Dr Peter Tass's developments with the vibrotactile glove

Elon Musk (ok look, I don't agree with all of his ideas) was asked how his development of a humanoid robot was going, and if there were any surprises and his answer was that half of all engineering would end up going towards the hands. He talked about how many engineering requirements there were for the hands and at the same time how actuators and motors could not be placed in the hand itself (just as in humans they are in the forearm, bundled through the carpal tunnel

Anyways, it made me think that Dr Tass's choice of stimulating the fingers vs any other part of the body was a good one and that a disproportionately large volume of neurons may be dedicated towards the activity of the hands. He has talked about the large hand humunculus, and it was nice to see this line of thinking confirmed from a completely different "engineering requirements" angle

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Squarepushr profile image
Squarepushr
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9 Replies
Fed1000 profile image
Fed1000

Thank you very much for sharing.

LAJ12345 profile image
LAJ12345

interesting, it’s hubby’s hands not working that are his biggest disability, yet most equipment seems to be for helping people whose legs don’t work

Greensnail profile image
Greensnail in reply to LAJ12345

There's recent (April 2023) evidence that the homunculus needs modification. Wilder Penfield developed it 90 years ago and ways to map the brain have since become more sophisticated. I've put excerpts from articles about the new findings of Dosenbach, Gordon, and colleagues below. I have not seen any discussion about whether these findings might affect the Tass work.

frontiersin.org/journals/hu...

Dr. Nico Dosenbach was the invited keynote speaker, who presented on the story behind his research identifying the somato-cognitive action network (SCAN) together with Dr. Evan Gordon and their collaborative team. They discovered that two parallel systems intertwine in the brain's motor circuits forming an integrate–isolate pattern: effector-specific regions (foot, hand and mouth) for isolating fine motor control and the somato-cognitive action network (SCAN) for integrating goals, physiology, and body movement (Figure 1) (Gordon et al., 2023; Graziano, 2023; Leopold, 2023).

Opinion piece, April 2023: scientificamerican.com/arti...

What ultimately made our team go back to replicate Penfield’s original work was a set of anomalous findings using a specialized type of MRI that identifies brain networks dedicated to a particular function. Such “resting state” functional neuroimaging looks for spontaneous activity that occurs simultaneously in different regions while a person is lying at rest in a scanner.

mir.wustl.edu/magazine/find...

We’ve found the place where the highly active, goal-oriented ‘go, go, go’ part of your mind connects to the parts of the brain that control breathing and heart rate. If you calm one down, it absolutely should have feedback effects on the other.”

busters_dad profile image
busters_dad

I have to disagree that his "line of thinking was confirmed" by Musk pointing out what any robotics engineer already knew. Ugh. The emperor has no clothes. He also doesn't have a PHD in anything, unlike Dr. Tass. It's too easy to diminish so many other people's work by ascribing it to Musk. The homunculus is the result of decades of research into the brain and nervous system. Tass targeted the tips of the fingers because that's where they knew they could target the largest amount of the brain through tactile stimulation. Eyesight actually uses far more of the brain than any other sense. But I'm guessing touch targets more of the area of the brain that is tied to movent and thus more appropriate when addressing a movement disorder.

enjoy2013 profile image
enjoy2013

Totally agree. Musk and any engineer are far from being close to the fascinating and extraordinarily complex machine we are, and to Pr Tass 20+ years of beautiful, thorough and patient research. Pr Tass is a medical doctor, he works to improve patients lives.Furthermore, I consider Pr Tass work outcome to be the top in treatment for PD, and I'm awaiting it impatiently. In the meantime, I'm already grateful for their present achievements

Squarepushr profile image
Squarepushr

Question to the neuroscience mavens: why do so many patients report improvements in vision, taste, smell? My own paltry DIY attempts at a glove have brought back sense of smell, increased the resolution and availability of flavors at the back of my tongue, and I have not put on reading glasses in 2024. Myalgia is reduced but my glove is clearly sub-optimal in terms of big benefits in moving or meds reduction (other than my arms swing when I walk for the first time in 3 years)

From a signal processing perspective or a neuro-topology perspective, why is vision, smell and taste so much better but movement lagging? Why is vision smell taste better at all?

BTW - do not, do not, do not buy/build a DIY glove unless your neurologist buys in and monitors you. Bad gloves can amplify high beta in the stn, and make your symptoms worse.

Taranto98 profile image
Taranto98 in reply to Squarepushr

Have you found a neurologist that "buys in and monitors you"? I have not seen anyone on this site say they had. Mine is open to listen but very skeptical. I (with skilled friends) bult gloves and I have gotten tremendous benefits:

improved sleep

sense of smell came back

no more constipation

arm swing

stopped drolling

But like you mention, my gait has not improved that much. So I am starting to work with a physical therapist on balence and strength. Only on one occasion did I think the gloves made matters worse.

Dr. Tass has done great reseach but the time to get these gloves into the maket is unaceptable. I think DIY is the only option to thousands of suffering people.

Taranto98 profile image
Taranto98

oh yes I cut my meds by 2/3 rds

Squarepushr profile image
Squarepushr in reply to Taranto98

Well a big congratulations is in order for everything you have been able to accomplish on your own! I maintain my advice not just for gloves but for anything you (the reader) may want to try: high dose B1 , Chinese herbs, some device that flashes light in your eyes, systemic stem cell injections, whatever - run it by your neurologist, see what they say, take their concerns seriously. Many on these boards are willing to privilege the advice of anonymous strangers and ignore the concerns of their neurologists. I would advise against this.

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