I was wondering if anybody with arrhythmia such as AF, Ectopic HB or Flutter, does experience Restless Sleep. I have a Fitbit Alta HR and it used to register Deep, Light, Rem and Awake Stage times until I developed permanent arrhythmia. Since then, I only get Asleep, Restless (some nights over 20 times!) and Awake Pattern times. My Drs are unable to explain this so I asking you, the experienced people, this hard question. Thanks for reading my dilemma.
Restless Sleep: I was wondering if... - Atrial Fibrillati...
Restless Sleep
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queseyo
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•
Hi there,Just want to check my understanding of your question .... sorry if I'm a bit thick but .... this change in sleep pattern - does this truly represent a physical change in your bodies sleep pattern AND are you aware of this change. In other words do you as a person actually agree with what Fitbit is telling you.
For me my sleep patterns have been worse over the years I have had AF, but, then my sleep patterns have been crap for years which I blame on shift work over many decades.
John
My AF problems started where I was 55 of age but my restless sleep started some 10-15 years before. Frequent turning over during the night, with occasional jerks, like I was electrocuted. In these days I was really overloaded with work, so considered it to be "normal", but it has continued until today... I sleep best after having had half a litter of white vine, lol.
Polski• in reply to
Have you had a test for sleep apnoea?
• in reply toPolski
Thanks for asking! No, I hate visiting the doctors and do it only if something is critical, but my sleep problems are bearable. As for the white vine, I have noticed that it helps reduce my BP, it relaxes me and helps with the sleep. Experimenting is underway, lol! All the best!
Polski• in reply to
I ask only because my understanding is that sleep apnoea can be a 'cause' of AF, so sometime in the future you may want to get it sorted in order to try and ease the 'burden' of AF.
• in reply toPolski
Thanks for pointing out to sleep apnoea. I know, it can cause AF bouts, but in my case, it is not likely to be the problem. My AF behaves strangely - I can go to bed and lay down for long, but while awake, I will stay in NSR. Whenever I fall asleep, it starts at once. In several occasions, I have been awoken after one hour or so, and already in AF. My wife says she does not hear me snore or have other breathing problems. When I wake up close to the morning, I can feel that shivering in my chest and I would stay in AF until I stand up and start moving around. We are all different, lol.
Karendeena• in reply to
Sounds like me...my sleep is restless but my af usually starts in the evening although sometimes I can only just feel it. I used to have a very fast af but now it's slowed down but I have a lot of episodes of irregular heart beats. No other symptoms though. I take sotalol and apixaban
• in reply toKarendeena
I am on no medication - I see no reason to take the pills. My AF is with almost no symptoms, My HR stays about 90 when in AF, my old folks have never had the stroke, so I have decided to risk. My BP is slightly increased, 140/90, have been prescribed the medication, but I do not take it. If I was 180/120, I probably would take it, but for now, I am satisfied with 140/90. All the best!
Karendeena• in reply to
Cheers, same to you too! I am the other way now. When it first started I ended up in A & E twice in the two months with a heart rate of 170+ bpm which went on for 24 hours. Never had BP probs, always been on the low side, lucky if it goes more than 110/68, heart rate hovers around 55/58 bpm but expect that's the meds.
• in reply toKarendeena
You are lucky with the BP. It is a frequent cause of peoples' problems. I have been dealing with regulated hydraulic circulatory systems for almost 30 years and do understand the relations in blood circulatory system better than the MDs. They react too soon. When the people start aging and the BP goes a little up, like in my case, it is not a sign of problems in the body, but simply the must, in the course to keep the blood flow rate at the necessary level. If the blood vessels get clogged, the pressure must go a little up, in the course to keep the flow rate at the necessary magnitude. And, the pressure is of the secondary importance, but the flow rate (because of the supply of the tissues with sugar and oxygen) is of primary importance and has to be maintained. A friend of mine, also in the 60-ties, started feeling problems after he began taking BP medication - his BP actually went somewhat down, but the flow rate went also down, so his brain was underfed, with probable negative consequences after a time.
Tickerprobs• in reply to
Well Stealey...everyone to their own thing. Until recent years, I’ve always avoided medication like the plague but since I developed Afib, I’ve resorted to the standard recommended meds. Can’t say I blame you for your approach but as with most of the CLAN, I feel as though I’m safeguarding myself. Best of luck to you.
• in reply toTickerprobs
I had the luck to be sound all my life. Even now, with 68, I do not have any evidence at my chosen GP. To be honest, the only thing I had problems with, was the flu. But in the past 3 years, I was not ill even of the flu, at all. The reason? I have succeeded to keep my Autonomous Nervous System in balance, so there was not a single drop in immune response. Whenever people get sick, apart from the electro-mechanical problems, it is mostly because of temporary drop in the immune system capability to defend the body. I have heard this explanation in one story about cancer, at least 20 years ago, and even than, it seemed to me to hold the water. My approach is --- if I am already going to die, than rather on natural causes, than because of the big Pharma trying to make the money. Recently, there was a story about BP medication, in use for the past 30 years all over the Europe, which are causing cancer. You can find it in the media...
Tickerprobs• in reply to
Yes SteelHeart...as I say I’m not a medication fanatic but I do what I think is best for now. Take care.
Try meditation CD's. Glenn Harold, the UK hypnotist has lots of good ones. It will help you sleep better at night. He even has one specifically for sleep. Also ... drink a Sleepy Time tea and also consider a Valerian herb capsule 1/2 hour before bed. Might also try 2mg of Melatonin 1/2 hour before bed. Experiment with each one to see what works. Might have to do two of them ....... or all three. I've had good luck with all these sleep agents. Surprisingly ... even a small glass of Tart Cherry juice might induce deep sleep at night. What I would never recommend are prescription sleeping pills. I've heard they cause neurological issues over time, so stay clear.
Meditation & CDs help you to relax, they don’t help sleep if you have sleep disturbance. Melatonin is not advised because it disturbs the cycadian rhythms, best to get up at exactly the same time and get into light as soon as you awake. That helps reset your circadian rhythm. Be very wary of Valarian as it has many contraindications for people with arrythmias.
The issue was restless sleep, not being unable to sleep.
That's your opinion.
I've tried all of those methods I recommend with great success. I suffer from AFIB and acute General Anxiety Disorder. GAD inhibits sleep. The meditation (alone) calmed my mind and helped me to go from almost no sleep .... to deep, relaxing sleep. Melatonin is not advised ... (by whom?) Almost anyone is better off trying herbs, teas, and other supplements than going with the 'hammer' of pharmaceutical drugs, which only lead to more health problems.
I’ve found a whisky followed by a whisky chaser can work wonders but don’t over do it. Happy sleeping to you all.
Alcohol triggers my af! Lol
Well that’s a shame Karen but no need for me to suffer, he says jokingly. Actually, if I have too much, I can now detect when not to have anymore but sometimes I ignore the signs. It must be ‘the plonky’ in me.
😂😂
The short answer is yes, but you get used to it and it’s nothing to worry about as long as you are not physically aware of it and feel OK. I still monitor but basically ignore my App on a daily basis but look at weekly and monthly patterns.
I would just mention that the watch sleep Apps are at best, only about 70-80% accurate and I really wouldn’t take much from that information. Go more on how you feel.
How long does it take you to go to sleep? Do you awake feeling refreshed? Do you get up in the night? Do you track your O2 sats & HR? They will give you more information. Do you feel sleepy and/or nap during the day? If so, try not napping.
Forget the ‘you must have good quality 7 hours of sleep’. Make that a goal but don’t get hung up on it and worry about it, it’s counter productive. We are all different and sleep issues have a multitude of reasons - my sleep disturbance when in AF was because of pulsaltile titinus and of getting up to pee a lot. Audio books for white noise helped but nothing will stop the peeing.
I found that taking Vit D at night can help. I also have a lot of restless leg and muscle spasms caused mainly because of another condition and the meds I take for that. Magnesium spray just before bed on my legs also help as they banish the dreaded RLS.
Do you mean that you feel excessively tired during the day? And if you do, then, unless things have changed since I tried to find an answer, doctors have no way of measuring or knowing how tired anyone should be, nor how much older age and the like are contributing factors.
Measuring sleep patterns in a way has come to seem rather unhelpful to me since our brain has within it the best of all measuring devices: how we feel during the following day after a night's sleep.
I suffer from dreadful sleep quality and have have done so for years, having something called 'sleep duration' insomnia (aka an over-active mind). I once took myself (privately) to one of the U.K.'s "leading sleep experts", a medically trained consultant. He told me that I might well be over-worrying about how much sleep I was getting. I told him that I wasn't worrying about how much sleep I was getting at all, only about how dog-tired I felt the next day! The effect on him was like water off a duck's back.
He concluded after very little thought and no real investigation that I didn't have sleep apnoea but that my stress levels were too high; he decided to send me to see his colleague, a clinical psychologist and another 'leading sleep specialist'. Well, he measured a few things and concluded that I needed to sort my sleep out before he could help me reduce my stress levels! I told him that his colleague had sent me to see him for precisely the opposite reason, but he just shrugged his shoulders. I rolled my eyes.
I've concluded that, unless the cause is sleep apnoea (which is easy to detect), then sleep studies and treatment are a very imprecise science and perhaps even a money-making racket. My GP, who knows me well, has proved to be by far the best person to help.
Steve
I think the whole idea of a good night's sleep is a myth.
I once mentioned this to my GP who agreed completely and said few people had the supposed 8 hours. For longer than I can remember I have had to get up at least three times each night due to first prostate problems and then NO prostate problems and also fret and wrorry every new problem to death. I also fear that all these gizmos people are encouraged to buy actually create a problem by making people focus on things that really do not matter.
Great money spinner but does it actually help anybody?
So long as you do not have sleep apnoea which is a known cause of AF and are not dog tired all the time then great.
I suffered from restless leg syndrome which was confirmed during my sleep apnea night test, I was put on a CPAP machine and it stopped it. I have just finished reading a book by a top London consultant ( actually an audible book ) and it will answer a lot of questions re restless leg , it is such a brilliant enlightening book. The Nocturnal Brain by Guy Leschziner. Good luck
My sleep has been similar to yours ever since I started with af in 2009. I also have gastric issues, either or both I feel disturb my sleep patterns. It was my GP who suggested that may be the source of my broken sleep. I also have nightly colourful, detailed dreams and nightmares. I don’t have a solution unfortunately having tried all the pre sleep calming techniques. I have just accepted it but it can’t be a healthy way to live as sleep and it’s renewal are key to our health.
My dreams are similarly colourful and often dark and bizarre. A recurring image is of my trying to switch on a light but when I do, the light doesn't work. I'm in the dark as to the meaning of that one! 
Steve
Hey Pp...In your dream, maybe you need to pop to the shop and buy a new light bulb (preferably low energy). 💡
😂
The other night I dreamed “within a dream” if that makes sense, “waking up” (in my dream) and realising that I’d been dreaming about something earlier in the dream. Weird.
That sounds very much like ECSS...Extremely Confused Sleep Syndrome. My advice would be, not to go to sleep. 😂💤😂
Is this due to meds do you think? Various people claim that Bisoprolol makes them have vivid even scary dreams... others point the finger at other drugs. I nod off ok but then wake up often and some nights have a pesky light bulb on in my head ( and can't find the switch) 🙂
Poor sleep is a scourge for me, sadly - and vivid dreams can be unpleasant. I’ve read that about beta blockers but bisoprolol doesn’t change my dreams at all. I much prefer a slower heart rate though as it makes me feel a touch less anxious.
Steve
When I started taking Bisoprolol I started having vivid dreams - whereas I hadn't noticed them before. But they are not nightmares. Just one night of straight 5 hours sleep would be wonderful. 🌛
Same here - what with prostate and IBS / diverticular issues my nights are appalling and many of my days are spent feeling weary. Such is life!
Steve
I'm sorry to hear that Steve. I have no idea of your age ( what I mean is are you retired?) or Afib experience. Sometimes I would like more of my mum's genes lol - 91 yrs old ,all her own teeth, takes no medication at all and has only had a hip replacement. The only time she was ill recently is when she was " forced" to have a 'flu jab which made her quite poorly for a couple of weeks. And,oh yes she sleeps like a log. Strangely my lack of sleep doesn't make me tired during the day ( yet).Take care x
That was a kind reply. Thank you. I’m 67 and had a successful ablation in 2019 for atrial flutter. I still have ectopics and tachycardia now and then - helped by bisoprolol. Life goes on, despite the tiredness, of course.
Steve
I suppose if you are retired like me there is less pressure to get up early. I wake up at about 7h30 but laze awhile listening to the news. I don't feel too worried now if I don't nod off until 4am I know I'll get a couple of hours of sleep with no pressure to get up. I used to be stressed about it but finally told myself there was no point as long as I wasn't too wiped out the next day. Take care x
I have really vivid dreams nightly since being on Bisoprolol, they can range from terrifying to amazing. Have got used to them now, but I always wake at 4ish from one and then go back into another. Sometimes I deliberately wake myself fully if they are troublesome. Told the Doc and he said nothing much can be done. I don't feel overly tired in the daytime so assume they can't be affecting the quality too much.
My reoccurring dream is an unfinished task, can be anything from trying to retrieve a phone number from a phone or trying to talk to someone. Apparently anxiety related which I do suffer from.
How do you deliberately wake yourself?Bisoprolol is a strange drug. I don't feel as mentally sharp since taking it.
When you are in that dream state (REM) you are not in deep sleep, I find I can wake myself from this state if having a bad dream. You must have had a situation when you wake from a dream and then fall back to sleep in the same dream? Or maybe I am bit weird? 😆 But yeah Bisoprolol is a very strange drug.
Yep it happens but rarely. 🙂
I am the same, poor sleep and awful dreams
I also have the same watch and have had two previous models. I have learned over the years to take their so called stats with caution.
I am now in permanent Afib and, as such, do not suffer the awful symptoms that I had previously and usually sleep through any night spikes although my watch will report maybe 3 hours sleep and restlessness etc. It told me I only slept for one hour a couple of nights ago but when I checked the heart activity, it had been raging all night. Although I hadn’t had a great night, I had certainly slept more than one hour.
I recommend that you only ever take any results as a general guide. I know from experience that my Consultant would never take FitBit numbers as accurate.
Netty
I have a watch that supposedly monitors sleep and it’s very inaccurate! One night I was awake worrying for over an hour and the recording said I was awake for a few minutes, also registered deep sleep when I know I was awake. I don’t know how a Fitbit works but mine as a very cheap imitation assumes I am asleep if lying down at night and I think it goes by my HR to decide whether I am having deep or light sleep. I agree that how you feel is the best measure of sleep quality but going on how my watch works I suspect the algorithm simply can’t cope with permanent AF 💜
I did trust my FitBit until a couple of months ago when I went on a persistent AF and constant Ectopic HB which make my heart beats irregularly all the time. Just last night I was awake for more that one hour having a herbal tea and trying to resolve a sudoku to relax. Then went to bed and wakeup at 7am. The FB recorder than I was sleeping at that time but I can prove it wasn't since the cup with the tea bag was still on the table. Clearly the devise can not read accurately any more since the heart beats are all over the please. In the past, when I wasn't on AF it was telling my Deep, Rem, Light and Awake times, not anymore.
Hey Q, with all due respect you’ve maybe purchased a cheapy. The device I used to have could tell what sort of tea I was drinking. Earl Grey or whatever. 😂
Hi, I would love to know the device you are mentioning, perhaps it could be of great help to me...The one I have is Fitbit Alta HR, it certainly doesn't tell me as much as yours. Thanks.
Hey Q...don’t know if you’re joking but I sent that last message for a laugh‼️‼️Hence the 😂 face.
That's right...I've continued your kind sense of humor, thanks😀
That’s a relief...wouldn’t like to offend you. TAKE CARE.
Two things: Restless sleep can be induced by bisoprolol, as are weird dreams. I went through a bout of several months where the dreams were VERY disturbing, but that eventually settled down. Recently, they've started up again, most nights. I use a Fitbit Charge 2HR which tracks sleep, but the App on my phone has changed over the years I've had it, and I stopped looking at the stats for that reason. I've just put them back up now, due to your enquiry, and I see that 'restless' isn't there currently. It shows Awake, Rem, Light and Deep. Is your app up to date? The classes you list are those for a Fitbit without HR.
Hi Q, I am seeing the sleep consultant at hospital as I have sleep problems. I have had lots of different tests but it ruled out sleep apnea, however the initial monitoring did show REM sleep behaviour disorder for which I have started on medication. I was constantly having serious nightmares and screaming out in the night. I was also very physical and kicking and thrashing about. I have since had further tests after literally throwing myself out of bed and onto a stool breaking a few ribs in the process. These further tests and actigraphy monitoring for 3 nights have shown that I have severe RLS but also I have periodic limb movement throughout the night. This monitoring shows that I am moving on average, every 2 seconds, so 30 times a minute. Monitoring my sleep patterns show a lack of REM sleep, little deep sleep and that it is taking up to three hours to actually get to sleep. I have had all my meds checked to make sure none are causing these problems, and they all seem clear. But none of this started until a few years after I was diagnosed with AFib.
Hi queseyo, I have a fitbit charge and this will only register awake /restless or asleep pattern such as yours when I am in AF. My AF comes on during the night, usually about an hour or 2 after I fall asleep (vagal type I think). When I am in NSR it will register light, deep and Rem patterns as well as sleep and awake. I understand that when we are in AF fitbit cannot decipher our sleep patterns as pulse rate all over the place and can only give a very simplified pattern which also not very accurate. I hope that this is of some help to you. Chris.
Yes Trigeminyblue, That is what I understand because my HR is all over the pleas it only give a very inaccurate reading which, after reading yours and some others post, I dont worry anymore, Thanks for you post, and by the way mine is a ALTA HR, which in my good times it was a very accurate reading...Deep, Rem, light and Awake.
I don’t think that a Fitbit is a reliable device with regard to sleep patterns; they are not advised by doctors or medically validated. I had one which showed that I woke up 30 times in one night! I returned it for a refund. If you feel rested after sleep and are sleeping 6.5 hours or more I see no reason for concern.
queseyo• in reply to
You are probably right, thanks
The fitbit uses your heartbeat to determine which stage of sleep you are in. If you're in AF, the fitbit can't find your heartbeat, or it doesn't fit the patterns it uses, so it just gives very basic information. I get this with my fitbit every time I get an AF episode (the last one has lasted about 6 weeks and it provided just basic info in that time. Went back into SR last night and lo and behold, the full range of info comes back. The fitbit does mention this when you go to the sleep info page, just not (IMHO) terribly clearly.I've still been having dreams during AF, so I know I'm going through the full range of sleep stages!
To summarise, it's a problem with the fitbit software, not you.
Well, I'm now on Ectopic HB and not on AF so the device still cannot register accurate because the HBits are irregular when on Ectopic HB Does it means that I'm sleemping well but the device is unable to detect it correctily...just wondering!!!
Hi queseyo, you are correct, your fitbit cannot decipher your heart rate patterns properly because if you are in afib or having mutiple ectopics it does not pick up all the beats generated as some are too weak for it to register. You can only get a very simplified version of your sleep pattern which is wildly inaccurate, you could possibly be sleeping very well. I take all my readings with a very big pinch of salt (figuratively) as sometimes, when I have sat reading for 2, 3 or more hours during the night my fitbit tells me that I have slept well for 7 or 8 hours and also sometimes, when I feel that I have slept well ,my fitbit will tell me that I had a very disturbed night and this is when I am in NSR. When in afib, my fitbit can only give me the very simplified version of sleep pattern. I just don't believe it anymore. Best wishes, Chris
Hi Christ, thanks for your very simplified and clear explanation. Exactly those things have happened to me...like when I has having a cup of tea at 2/3 at midnight it read that I was asleep. Well, I'm satisficed that it is not jus me with such experiences and I should accept the results as I feel nothing else...and take the bitbit' reading with a "huge" grain of salt. Thanks again for you useful post.
Well I guess the proof is how long do you think you are asleep, and whether you wake refreshed. The dratted fitbit frequently thinks I'm asleep when I'm working at the computer, so take its pronouncements with a small pinch of salt!
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