Interesting article. These may be causing AF
Cardiologist says she's seeing a rise... - Atrial Fibrillati...
Cardiologist says she's seeing a rise in 20-somethings with heart arrhythmias caused by herbal supplements
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BRHow
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Supplements will never replace a healthy eating plan - the clue is in the name - so is this yet another win for Marketing and Pharmaceuticals profits - who own and/or manufacture many of these products? At the expense of our health?
Very interesting as I have thought this for a long time. Unfortunately, if you go on to read the comments following the article many of the readers want to blame the covid vaccination.........
Always difficult to prove what the cause of AF is, mainly I believe because for most of us it is a combination of factors which with some lifestyles can build to the AF tipping point, others never reach that point. I believe one of those contributory factors can be caused by the covid vaccinations if your body is more susceptible. My main reason for not having the jab (and instead relying on re-purposed drugs/supplements was that evidently it has caused some to go into AF (as reported here & elsewhere).
Hi
My AF was caused by Thyroid cancer which has been removed but I was H/R controlled until 2 years 3 months later.
Hoping it will return naturally.
Cheri J
I agree that AF is often the result of multiple factors. As for the article, it seems unfortunate that all supplements are lumped together and include ephedra, banned due to its detrimental cardiovascular effects, I understand. It’s also odd that none of the cases given as examples in the article are in the 20 something age range, the subject of the article. Of course, supplements can be abused but, as I have found, they can also be extremely helpful, not to mention that many herbal remedies have been used to good effect for centuries.
Out of interest, even in my limited circle of contacts, I know of two youngsters in their 20’s hospitalised with arrhythmias due to overconsumption of high caffeine energy drinks consumed whilst attempting to burn the candle at both ends. I can’t imagine they are alone! Then there is the recent pandemic to consider and the effects of Covid on the cardiovascular system, not to mention the vaccine. I would venture to suggest that factors other than supplements may be at the root of the increase.
Herbal medicine has been around for centuries and the covid vaccine literally just came out and you assume it is the herbs and not this new man made not properly tested unnatural chemical?
Oh I think some of these are poisons. I was told to take ginseng once by a so-called "alternative practitioner". It made me quite ill, with a high heart rate and palpitations,
I see many ads on the likes of Facebook that surely break every advertising standard, too. One for weight loss yesterday was clearly in breach of standards and another for magnesium made wild claims.
Caveat emptor should not apply to these so-called "nutriceuticals" and other herbal supplements.
Steve
The problem is that many of these herbal supplements have come from Chinese traditional medicine but are not being used by people who are trained in that. There are plenty of poisons among pharmaceutical products too.And they get a pass because on the whole people trust what their doctors are prescribing. Iatrogenic damage especially among old people who are subject to polypharmacy is a real and growing problem. In America - 3rd cause of death after heart disease and cancer. Thousands of people have had their health ruined for years by FQ antibiotics that are still touted as "safe ". Some of them have been helped by herbal supplements or other "nutriceuticals" including myself . If you are a victim of iatrogenic damage you will find little or no help from the doctor who damaged you. More likely denial.
Well, having been "treated" by a Chinese medicine practitioner, I can't accept that your view is always right there. She really had no idea what she was treating. How could she with no scans, little anatomical knowledge and ho patient history except what I told her? And then I was given 20 unknown tablets a day to take...
As for people being poisoned by antibiotics, then that is always a tragedy but most often preventable had the prescribing doctor considered the risks. One can only assume that human error, for whatever reason, is too common.
I always think of poly-pharmacy as when drugs were combined into a single tablet. That is now quite unusual. What some people ignore when being critical of the medical fraternity is that they are faced with the unenviable task of trying to help a person who comes to them is apparent desperation. But these problems are often of old age and even then are sometimes - perhaps often - caused by a lifetime of avoiding the preventative methods of avoiding obesity, taking regular exercise and eating a healthy diet. Doctors are then stuck with trying their best to treat otherwise preventable arthritic, cardiovascular, liver and auto-immune issues. The demand for pain relief is one that really is a major issue for doctors to deal with and they have few safe options.
So, whilst doctors - human in every way as well - are at times at fault, you can gather that I blame the individual in equal portion, well - maybe far more so.
Steve
Antibiotics are not the only possibility for pharmeceutucal poisoning. Look at Vioxx , Avandia , and other drugs that have eventually been taken off the market often after years of damaging patients ( usually with the knowledge of the manufacturers ) . Polypharmacy is the recognised term for the practice of giving upwards of five different medications on a permanent basis with very little in the way of review. There is very little data on the interaction of several drugs taken together . People with high cholesterol do not go to their doctor in desperation. They do not even know they have it until subjected to blood tests. A lot of people actually feel worse on the drugs prescribed them ( particularly women) and there is now a movement of deprescribing among enlightened doctors . I had chronic sinusitis cured by acupuncture. The doctor had prescribed Cipro ( my first floxing) . When it returned the consultant suggested cutting a bit out of my nose. Turns out the GP had had this op and it lasted 6 months then her sinusitis came back. She thought she might give the acupuncture a whirl. My acupuncurist had been trained in China. It is easy to scoff at Chinese or Ayurvedic medicine but often they work . Even if there is a placebo element so what ? There is a placebo element with all medicine.
Oh, if you read what I put, you'll see that I didn't scoff. I told you the exact reality of the event, as unbelievable as it was.
Sinus troubles are very hard to cure but the success rate of the op is quite high. My father and friend had it and it worked; I could have it but I am holding off. Before you can be sure of the effects of the acupuncture, you will need to give it some time. Sinusitis is a condition that waxes and wanes a very great deal. The success rate of both Chinese and Indian medicines is, in fact, low. Of course, we tend to read of their success on the internet, but all studies show a rather poor success rate, often quite similar to placebo at about 30-40% and, like placebo, short term.
Yes - those drugs have become infamous. I suspect all analgesics and anti-inflammatories are suspect, myself. The future doesn't look bright for pain relief. A number of anti-depressants have also been linked to heart issues and the future for them looks similarly worrying. And don;t lets go into hormones for contraception and HRT...
But what will we replace them with? Now there's the rub. Most people who take these drugs do not suffer but the drugs will be withdrawn because of those who do.
I think you write once about hydroxyquinine for covid (I might have got mixed up). This Twitter thread is fascinating on that:
twitter.com/sTeamTraen/stat...
Steve
I think 32 years is a reasonably long time to be sure the acupuncture worked.. I am actually a fan of HRT. It is a lot more useful for menopause than anti depressants which many doctors try to fob women off with. I have been on it for nearly 30 years albeit on a very small dose now and I feel about it like Bob D feels about his Warfarin ! It is Hydroxychloroquine. It was used by Prof Raoult at Marseille in the early days of the pandemic. Until Lancetgate there were several trials going on here in France. Despite some positive initial results they were all stopped by the Health minister but were not reinstated after the Lancetgate scandal. The doc who gave me my covid jab said he was sure that Raoult was right but had been blackened by the medical establishment because there was no money in it. Incidentally Fauci himself said it worked for the original SARS.
My GP recommended snorting warm salt water for my permanent sinus problems. Worked a treat.
All the best.
Roy
Thank you for the tip but I think you’re lucky. I used a device to do just this and, yes, instant results for my nose but not for the blocked sinus which is somewhere deeper. I’d be happy to put up with the sinus trouble if only it didn’t make my hearing weird!
Steve
My left nostril used to bleed continually until the salt water treatment. It was always a problem for me up to that point. My employer sent me to a Harley Street specialist 50 years ago, and he said I had a deviated septum. So I was fortunate it worked for me.
All the best,
Roy
I have a friend who has Chinese medicine from a supposedly trained practitioner but OMG, the rubbish she is told. All her “diagnoses” are completely made-up nonsense, and as you say, they don’t actually test for anything unless you call sticking your tongue out a medical test. However, it makes her feel like she is “doing something” even if she’s actually juggling bank overdrafts and credit cards to pay for it. On one appointment she was told she had shingles even though she had no symptoms whatsoever, and I mean absolutely nothing , but the practitioner told her sometimes people have it without any symptoms. The next week she was told “I’m not sure you’ve had shingles”. 🤔 But my friend believes in it, so I say nothing.
As for supplements, mostly they are unnecessary. Unless you have a known deficiency there’s no need to take them. I take vitamin D as I’ve been deficient in the past and I live in the UK, so it makes sense. Interestingly, my vitamin D levels were lower on a higher dose tablet than they were on a regular dose. I know that quality control is an issue and some tablets don’t contain the amounts of active ingredients they are supposed to as they are regulated as foods and not as medicines. So you don’t always get what you pay for. Supplements have their place but the clue is in the name. Personally I take a food first approach, and I don’t take supplements as medicines. Because supplements aren’t medicines. I know some people here have had benefits from taking magnesium supplements and if it works, by all means carry on. It didn’t help me, unfortunately. I also understand not everyone can have a balanced diet for many reasons and supplements can be of value in those situations. Most supplements are probably safe in reasonable doses but I won’t take herbal medicines for any reason because they can be potent but they are not regulated. Culinary herbs and herbal teas are fine but that’s as far as I’ll go. As for my friend, I don’t think she even knows exactly what she is taking in her herbal “prescriptions”. I’m not impressed by any of it.
It was so good to read your post. Thank you. It’s unusual to find other than disagreement with any view that suggests these “alternative” approaches are worth other than their weight in gold and that traditional, science-based approaches are to be to treated suspiciously.
Our doctors and research scientists are our saviours - human as they are with all that that means in both positive and negative terms. I feel sure that we would be immeasurably worse off without their dedication and expertise and the high quality research-based medicines they prescribe in their attempt to help us,
Many alternative practitioners are sincere but others are focused only on making small fortunes from people often ill able to pay their fees, and the companies that supply the homeopathic items, herbs and ‘nutraceuticals’ are doing so, in my experience, often caring most about the profits being made.
Steve
I’ve had ME/CFS for many years and I know only too well how desperate people can be to find anything that might help. In truth, what supports one’s general health is the same right across the board but unfortunately the advice is boring. Sleep, stress management, a healthy balanced diet and exercise/activity within tolerable limits are the key pillars of health. The problem is this advice is so ubiquitous it has become invisible/silent. What people get from these alt practitioners is time and someone who listens, probably in a nice room and a relaxing atmosphere. But beyond that it’s buyer beware, whether it’s nonsensical dietary restrictions, bogus allergy testing and nonsense diagnostics like pushing on someone’s arm. (For what, exactly? Answers on a postcard ….) Also, there are “conditions” that only seem to exist in the realm of alternative “medicine” and surprise, surprise, they can sell you the cure, usually supplements, bogus advice, general lifestyle advice (which you can find anywhere for free) and repeat appointments that keep you coming back for more. The worried well with deep pockets swear by its effectiveness.
I would never dispute the value of relaxation/mindfulness/meditation to manage stress which is valuable in many long term conditions, but you can learn that for free or very cheaply. Perhaps massage therapy or aromatherapy massage is helpful. Yoga classes, maybe. And that’s about it. I’d never see a “nutritionist” as 99% of the dietary advice they give is utter nonsense. Unless this person has a degree in nutrition from a real university and is on the professional register of nutritionists, I’d advise anyone to steer well clear. Registered dietitians are regulated and it’s a protected title. Quite often it’s these professionally qualified people who have to undo the damage caused by exclusion diets and bogus food allergy nonsense. My friend has developed a lot of fear around food and eating because of the rubbish she’s been told. One example “aubergine will tear my gut lining” and “my practitioner told me not to eat broccoli because I will overheat” (no that’s not a typo). I was told off by her for drinking kefir by the glassful because her practitioner said it “causes die-off” and was advised to have only a teaspoon per day. Die-off??!! Seriously? You couldn’t make this garbage up. The tragedy is that last month she had to have invalid drinks on prescription from the GP because she wasn’t eating. And she’s still seeing these alt health charlatans and trying to sort out some sort of overdraft extension with her bank. She was told by one of her alt practitioners that she’d be better off going twice a week rather than just once. So that’s what she’s doing. Anyone can see it isn’t doing her any good, but “my practitioner says …..” And this week she was told by him that she was “worse” than the week before but said to me “that’s strange because I thought I was feeling better”. Yes, just like the invisible symptom free shingles he diagnosed only to tell you the next week you probably didn’t have anyway! Seriously, I wouldn’t trust that person with my health. Alarm bells all round as far as I’m concerned.
I’d like to say “if it doesn’t do any harm then why not?” But there IS potential for harm. If someone has paid out all this money and invested in all that time, put all their hope and faith into it BUT end up underweight and on invalid drinks there’s something seriously wrong. I’ve seen other people similarly damaged but even then it’s “my naturopath/healer/nutritionist says ….” and they won’t or can’t recognise that what they are doing is actually creating more problems, sometimes more serious problems, on top of their existing condition/s. I don’t give alternative medicine a free pass It’s actually a minefield. If someone enjoys an aromatherapy massage that’s one thing, but for “treating” any kind of medical condition, think very very carefully
I truly couldn't have written my thoughts any better than you have done. Your comments on nutrition rang especially true. What a "science" that is, one that, over the years, has come unstuck so often I'm surprised it survives at all!
It's sad you suffer with ME. It's such a strange condition and is still defeating science. My niece currently has been told she has it. As an individual, she's pushed herself hard in life, and life has also pushed her through this or that circumstance; she has now also taken upon herself an OU degree, something that is stretching her a great deal while bringing up her family is poor financial circumstances, all adding extra stress. Why she has ME and just what it "is", I don't know. She's taking a handful of pills a day for "it".
I do recall reading a study in the Lancet or BMJ very many years ago when, in its early years, the illness was being called "Charing Cross disease". This was after a group of mostly nurses at that hospital who were suffering from it. A consultant there did a study in which a small group of sufferers agreed, if I recall, to a week's complete hospital rest under sedation. The trial worked well, as I recall, with all of the sufferers recovering. I heard no more about that study and, over the years, I have often thought of it when I hear of this illness. I wonder what became of the work.
Steve
ME/CFS is a very debilitating condition. If I hadn’t experienced this illness myself I’d have no clue about how severe and restricting it can be. There are specialist ME/CFS clinics run by the NHS. I was referred and I found it very helpful. I have no idea about the “handfuls of pills” your niece takes. There isn’t a drug treatment, but some people need take medication for particular symptoms eg pain, or sleep. Unfortunately there’s not a lot of funding for research compared with other conditions but there has been some some research that shows dysfunction of the HPA axis. That’s what my clinician told me at the specialist unit, and she was a great advocate of relaxation/meditation techniques to help regulate this. It’s not the whole story of course, and relaxation techniques aren’t a cure but just one management tool. There are other research findings but they’re all jigsaw pieces so far. Treatment is essentially symptom and lifestyle management. There’s no “do xyz and then you’ll be recovered”. It’s more a case of acquiring the tools to manage your life without increasing symptoms. Easier said than done, and there’s no guarantee of anything.
That’s also why many people are vulnerable to exploitation by charlatans. They aren’t happy with what the NHS can offer. Sometimes they have good reason to be disappointed and not everyone has access to specialist services, and even then some people aren’t happy with what’s on offer. So they turn to “alternative medicine” who offer up nonsense diagnoses like “adrenal fatigue” and “leaky gut” and “candida overgrowth”. Whilst it’s true that gut permeability (for example) does exist, the bona fide researchers will say that it’s not a diagnosis, nor do the know if it’s a consequence or a cause of any condition, and that some degree of permeability is normal some of the time in healthy people — but more importantly, there are still many unknowns. So how some unqualified person can confidently “diagnose” what they call “leaky gut” by guesswork is quite a feat. Unless they have X-ray eyes with powerful microscopes attached.
My friend is taking herbs to “balance her adrenals”. What does that even mean??! Of course she has to buy the “cure” from the person who “diagnosed” her. Yet she’s also relying on invalid drinks because she’s been told so much nonsense, developed so many food fears so she can’t eat, she’s losing bone density and height, and she’s in a bit of a state psychologically, all because she won’t seek out NHS care and puts all her faith in people who are (in my opinion) robbing her of her cash AND her health. Quite frankly, I don’t think “balancing the adrenals” is going to do anything and if it was up to me I’d take those stupid herbs and flush them down the toilet.
It's a pleasure to read such a rational viewpoint. I wish you well. I think my niece likely has an SSRI in that handful, along with a PPI and an NSAID... just guessing, though. The problem with things like "leaky gut" is that it's so hard to establish what it means and, well - everyone has it, I gather, and yet few have symptoms. My own belief is that "anxiety" (in a very broad sense of the word) plays a massive role in our health. My own heart arrhythmias and gastric issues are certainly made worse by anxiety, even though it's only in retrospect that I can sense that (and even then I might be wrong, but it's a feeling I have). Certainly in my niece's case, I feel pretty sure that anxiety plays a large role in her symptoms and fatigue.
Steve
I think all illnesses are multi factorial and there will be different contributory factors even for people with the same diagnosis. There are quite distinct subgroups of ME/CFS and it doesn’t help that CFS has fairly vague diagnostic criteria. I think everyone has to find a way of managing their condition and addresses their own specific symptom pattern. There isn’t a one size fits all, but that probably applies to anyone with a long term condition. I can categorically say that breathing exercises and magnesium etc do absolutely zero for my ectopics, but some people swear by doing those things. Of course they’re worth a try and if they help that’s great.
I would definitely draw the line at herbal concoctions. I don’t even know whether my friend actually knows what what’s in whatever she’s talking. The trouble is that herbs are not regulated like medicines and even when they are tested they might not contain what they’re supposed to, and can even contain contaminants and dangerous ingredients. Herbs and spices are fine for cooking and herbal teas that you can buy from regular shops, but beyond that it’s anybody’s guess. Also with vitamin and mineral supplements, there isn’t a food in nature that contains one isolated compound in huge amounts. I don’t believe that the human body is supposed to be flooded with megadoses of artificial vitamins. It’s the whole food matrix that has been shown to be beneficial, not just one isolated element.
Going back to my friend, she sucks on those water soluble vitamin C tablets. What is that doing to her teeth? It’s concentrated ascorbic acid. The clue is in the name. I wish people would stop viewing vitamins and supplements as if they were medicines. They don’t treat anything other than deficiencies, and in this country one way that people will become deficient is by cutting out foods and food groups etc. I know some people are too unwell and some frail elderly people can’t prepare meals or have no appetite These are the people need supplements, but most people are buying them unnecessarily and would be better off spending that money on better quality foods. It’s very odd that people cut out entire food groups and then neck down handfuls of supplements and somehow that’s “healthy”?
"It’s the whole food matrix that has been shown to be beneficial, not just one isolated element."
Yes. So very close to what I have said. My son is a big advocate of "natural" foods, meaning as unprocessed as can be. He eats a lot of vegetables, nuts and seeds but also fish, seafood and some meat. He thinks most about his iron and other mineral levels but he's a healthy chap at a very good weight. He's so lucky to have found a lovely farmer's daughter from Romania who loves cooking "proper" food.
All science now shows that vitamins and minerals are best taken as foods not as supplements, which have been shown to be useless. To say we are "short" of vitamin D, for example, says only that the science of that vitamin isn't sufficiently known to make the claim meaningful. I have been heavily interested in MS research over my life and the linking of that with vitamin D levels once caught my eye and mind, but, alas, to no eventual result. I recall, too, the nutritionists fads and rages against pork dripping, butter and even eggs, and now we know it was hydrogenated vegetable oils with their "trans-fat" that were the cardiovascular poisons all along.
The snake oil sellers are rich people who know well how to dupe those who need help. If only the pharmaceutical industry could be funded better than by the stock market, we'd have an altogether better health care system, but that is looking like a Utopian dream. A shame.
Steve
I am tested for vitamin D status by the GP every so often and if I don’t supplement I’ll be deficient. I’m not one for sun exposure as I’m a Celt and I burn in minutes. But I’m aware that some medical types question the usefulness of vitamin D, but again, being of Celtic ethnicity I also have haemochromatosis which has contributed to my low bone density. So I’ll err on the side of caution on this one and take the vitamin D. I know some people are absolute zealots and take very high doses of vitamin D but my blood test results showed higher levels with a lower dose supplement compared with a higher dose supplement. So I don’t see any need to take more than necessary. It annoys me to see people online making out it treats Covid or prevents it. No it doesn’t. It doesn’t stop people from getting any other kind of infection so why would it magically and miraculously stop Covid? Vitamin C doesn’t stop anything either. But as ever, my attitude is if people want to go down that route, then “you do you”.
Close to 350,000 die a year between the US and the UK from pharma drugs side effects.
I suspect the vast majority of those deaths was in very elderly and sick people? But can you send links to papers that explain that vast number in some way, please?
Steve
ethics.harvard.edu
New Prescription drugs : A Major health risk with few offsetting advantages
That was interesting. Thanks. I remain dubious about the high number of deaths being caused by "drugs" and have read that the figure is wrong and really mostly elderly very sick folk. That said, the number of deaths caused by morphine-based pain relieving drugs in the US seems to be astonishingly high. I shall keep searching to find where I read about this - but, still, what you say is worrying and of great concern.
Steve
Hi
I read that.
I take only B12 via Solgar because I am deficiency in B12.
Optimal level for older folks is 400-500mcg.
Taken under the tongue.
Vit D is sunshine or light. Put your mushrooms out in sun to absorb Vit D and tomatoes as well.
Cheers J
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