Can anyone explain why my blood sugar control appears to be poor?
I read hypoglycaemia is uncommon except in hypothyroidism and Hashimoto’s 🤷🏽♀️
I’ve just started the Zoe nutrition programme. I’m working through their introductory activities eating various combinations and seeing blood sugar responses. I’m wearing a continuous blood glucose monitor for 2 weeks.
I don’t seem to get high blood sugar problems, highest reading since Monday is about 7.5 after sugary test muffins from Zoe. They were disgusting. But I do seem to go very low very quickly if I’ve had an increase. Is this hypoglycaemia?
Average is about 5.6 flat most of the day but quite steep dips after dinner or carby test food I wouldn’t usually eat.
It can drop below 4 after the sugary test food and sometimes after dinner.
I tend to eat low ish carb lots of veg and good fats, tonight’s dinner was beef with squash, tomatoes courgettes green beans and kale. I got an alert on the libre app to say blood sugar was dropping fast and below 4.3 two and a half hours after dinner, felt dreadful and was rescued by a 3 gluten free oatcakes and some dark chocolate with dried cranberries and raisins.
Now I realise I’ve had this before, my old pattern is to hunt the cupboards for something sweet in the evenings without realising, or conk out on the sofa and am out cold. I always thought I’d just had a busy day 🤷🏽♀️ when I was on T3 it happened less. Was over range though so had to stop.
So what is causing an insulin over reaction?
HBa1c has been 30-32 on tests in Jan and March this year (26-41).
Cortisol connection?
Thyroid replacement off?
Just an odd week? It has been quite a stressful time, some factors beyond my control that aren’t going to go away anytime soon.
Here is a photo of today’s chart, the alert was about 8.30pm and I ate small amounts of sugary foods /carbs as directed to bring it up.
What was going on at 3am? I’ve had two dips like that at that time in recent days.
Or is it nothing? Normal? I have no context for my readings and could just be paranoid/hypochondria 🫠
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Regenallotment
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Overall your BG levels look great but if it's crashing after eating carbs, it sounds like it might be the start of 'reactive hypoglycemia'. There's tons written about it online but most reliable sources say the cause is not well know, and to avoid high glycemic index foods.
My favorite site discusses it below, scroll down until the low blood sugar part or search for 'reactive'. bloodsugar101.com/am-i-diab... Basically a blunted first phase insulin response causing over reaction of the 2nd phase, resulting in a dip 2+ hours after eating carbs.
I think overnight dips should be fine if they recover quickly - the liver releases glycogen to get levels back up.
But an average of 5.8 seems a tiny bit high unless you are constantly eating? What is your Hba1c?
Going below 4.3 isn't a huge problem, down to 3.9 is fine if you're not diabetic. Diabetics get alerts because their BG can keep falling very quickly and that's dangerous, so perhaps the alerts are set higher for that.
Is there any diabetes in the family?
It would not surprise me if thyroid or other factors affect it too.
Sorry i realize my answer was all over the place but the summary is that i would keep an eye on BG in the future. If you follow the website above, you can test at home using test strips after your zoe trial finishes. Test before eating and 1 and 2 (and 3 hours after, in your case). And adjust diet based on what you react to. Not every carb will behave in the same way.
But what you can do now while you have it is to test which high carb / high glycemic index foods cause these crashes, and just reduce their quantity. For example i can have 2 medium potatoes with dinner, but not more or BG goes too high. Or try swapping eg quinoa for rice or whatever.
All this of course if purely from a BG perspective.
Hopefully others will make the link with thyroid/cortisol. For me it was purely BG issues which run in the family.
30 is good. I was prediabetic already at 39, thankfully I did home testing and then a Glucose tolerance test confirmed it. Endo shouted at me that you can't feel high BG but I could! Some are not any better at diabetes either. No need to wait until BG is 42 to start controlling it.
I wouldn't be surprised - I was reading "something" about a week ago that implied low cortisol = more adrenaline = messes up insulin response. If I get the chance I'll try and find the "something" I had read.
This also happens to me. Although I have never tried continuous monitoring. However as my HBa1c was beginning to creep up from 37 to 40s since diagnosis of hashimotos, I purchased a glucose monitor. Purely to see what was happening to me. I discovered my morning blood sugars were a little raised 5.8 something which I now know as dawn phenomenon. Which is why I would often wake around 3am. This does happen in non diabetics. I have no family history of diabetes and have always been just over 7 stone. Although I had 2 101b babies, but they didn’t test for gestational diabetes in those days. I’ve always been shakey and feel dreadful if I’m going over my meal time.
I reduced carbs and tried to eat as healthy as possible and it didn’t make much difference. I walk a lot and do yoga. I think I have reactive hypoglycaemia and need to eat regularly. I’m on thyroxine only.
I did seek advice from diabetes uk forum but they just said you’re not diabetic and so don’t worry about it. Although they do have a section on the forum for reactive hypoglycaemia which you could look at. A good book is the The Glucose Goddess by Jesse Inchaupe. She is not diabetic but she used a CGM for a couple of weeks and discovered she spiked a lot. She gives advice on how to control the spikes. She is a biochemist and her advice is evidence based. Also Isabella Wentz writes a good article on blood sugar spikes. Diabetes & thyroid are endocrine and the 2 appear inextricably linked. That’s not to say all people with hypothyroid develop diabetes but we may have a harder time controlling the spikes. So no you are not paranoid or hypochondriac. You haven’t said what your HBa1c was but it would be good to get it checked.
Oh wow this is super helpful, thanks Summerlove what you describe is very familiar. I will follow up your suggestions for reading and learn more. Thanks so much for replying. HBa1c was 30 and 32 on recent tests (26-41)
Wow sounds like you are not diabetic with those results. As the glucose goddess has found everyone has blood sugar spikes we are often blissfully unaware. Except some people do have symptoms. A good way to balance blood sugars as someone has already said is a brisk 10 minute walk after each meal. I know that’s not always practical. Overall sounds like you are doing the right thing.
I used to have these sugary cravings. I am not diabetic or on that pathway thankfully. I found that once my B12 was addressed and on regular jabs, I was on optimal dose of thyroid hormones, had to go GF everything settled down. Very rarely do I get a sugar craving. Interestingly my bloated tummy also disappeared.I think the body needs to be balanced and so often it's not and this causes all sorts of reactions as the body tries to find that balance. Im only saying this because I think we often try to pin things on one specific thing and rarely does any professional look at the overall functioning of the body. Maybe functional doctors are better at this?
Look at B12d. Org. They have a symptom checker and advice. Best to do b12, blood test first as it asks for result.B12 made a massive difference to me, as did GF.... Well I'm now Coeliacs so it would!! 🤣
Here is a screenshot of my 4th day for comparison... Afternoon snack was a banana followed by a walk which drops it down quite quickly.... I don't have the alerts switched on thankfully or I'd be up eating all night! These are aimed at diabetics and I was keen to see how my normal daily routine behaves...
After another couple of days the night time dips have lessened and I haven't changed anything... I'm sure I read something about calibration to start with?
I peaked at 6mmol after breakfast muffins and 7.4mmol after lunch....
It has very much taught me not to eat and then sit around reading!! So I now have to go walk the dogs as breakfast was in bed with a cuppa and my levels are zooming up 😩and I really want to read this thread 🙃
It is a good idea to eat protein first then veg then carbs. This helps avoid sugar dips. Zoe is great. I've been on it since January and have lots more energy and lost lots of weight.
This sounds interesting I’ll have to try it, I’m on test day of just GF bread for breakfast 😣 with avo tomorrow with exercise on Friday. I guess sequencing is week 2 or 3? 🌱
You will receive a little lesson every day for the next four months. Not sure which week.
👋 Regen! V exciting you’ve gotten onto Zoe.
I struggled with very bad hypoglycemia most of my life (started aged 7?) steroids has completely ameliorated that.
I don’t want to be too “cortisol goggle” esque, but blood sugar control is a big adrenal responsibility. That, coupled with your suspect high FT3 on such a small dose is making me wonder a bit about how your cortisol might look in a saliva panel.
the other thing is - have you got a finger prick BG machine? I used to have to cross reference and sometimes the CGM would be out by quite a bit but mine wasn’t Zoe
…and darling @dfc you have been saying this all along, thanks for keeping on. Yes I will save up and get a saliva panel done next. I am slowly getting closer to understanding me which is very helpful x
In fairness, I also really thought you seemed to have dodged the cortisol claws unscathed!
One thing I have come to notice about hypoglycemia - which is sometimes tied to adrenal function - and I don’t know if this will ring true with you but I will share it anyway in case it does. I think that hypoglycemic people can tend towards orthorexic-type eating styles more so than people who aren’t - (I hasten to add this is only a theory of mine!) I think we can get caught in a crossfire between knowing we should/ought to limit sugar, but feeling an urge to eat it, I think this urge is driven by a recuse attempt to remedy plummeting blood sugar levels. This crossfire is like a breeding ground for binge / restriction cycles. I don’t know if you can relate to that, but it was my life for many, many years, being in deep conflict all the time between my glucose-driven instincts and the latest podcast I was listening to, when I was low carb/carnivore it was particularly hard, food was a relentless source of angst. I wonder if your adrenals would appreciate some higher carb intake, it could actually be all they need, and I think your conversion would probably be grateful too. Maybe give it a go. You’re so diligent and dedicated Regen, I am rooting for you x
I had to look up orthorexic 😂 Orthorexia is an unhealthy focus on eating in a healthy way
I won't comment on that LOL but you do raise a good point "knowing we should/ought to limit sugar, but feeling an urge to eat it" absolutely agree this can be low cortisol related.
Another point someone else made in this long thread (was it wavylines?) was the same thing can happen with low B12. I used to crave excessive carbs to compensate for the lack of energy. I also used to get really bad red meat cravings and I could eat massive amounts of steak or hamburger in one sitting. My family was shocked LOL. Now I eat the typical "2 matchboxes" portion (back then I thought that was crazy, how could anyone eat such little meat 😂😂) , and don't get carb cravings unless something is off balance.
Actually taking kefir has also helped. When candida starts taking over, I also get carb cravings. I used to think candida was a thing on its own, but really it's caused by thyroid, adrenals, b12, poor digestion, etc, and kefir helps keep it at bay too.
Some of those GF breads are really terrible - full of rice & tapioca that make BG shoot up and crash back down. The only one I like is the Schar brand - reasonable amount of carbs and I feel like its glycemic index is low, based on what my BG does. Eating out is always a challenge. Best wishes Regen 🙏
Yep never again I don’t usually eat anything like this, only doing it for a Zoe challenge, well that can DO ONE! I’m going to test what I do eat and go back to normal this is horrible. This is genius… so sugary. The schar in my local Tesco had soy protein so I avoided. I make my own but that is a seen bread with no grain flours so wouldn’t be suitable for the Zoe challenge . Wish I’d had that now 🤦🏽♀️
So tough isn't it! Can I ask, what kind of sensor is it eg Freestlye Libre, and is it annoying to wear? Do you put it on your arm? I think I can get it here without a prescription & you've inspired me! 😊 My BG control has not been great lately, i get too lazy to monitor regularly.
Yep Freestyle libre with the libre link app. I am a bit princess and the pea though. I can ‘feel’ it the whole time. Stung a bit on application apparently all normal. They and TiggerMe suggest it’s the glue on the covering plaster. Highly likely, just trying to ignore it 🤦🏽♀️
Restricting carbs was the worst thing I ever did for my adrenals, so IMHO if you feel the urge to eat something carby, don’t fight it. I have known people develop diabetes on carnivore. The notion that glucose causes diabetes is far too oversimplified, as is the idea that by removing sugar we are automatically sensitizing insulin receptors - far from it! We are just removing the trigger, insulin is bound to be lower if we are not provoking it as often. In fact insulin resistance goes up in the shorter term of carb restriction. I say eat some potatoes! (and screw the oxalates 😉)
There is rampant absorption competition all the time - minerals compete for absorption amongst themselves, (iron and calcium are big bullies in particular) and then plant compounds block different minerals too. I have come around to the view that cooking veg well, soaking & sprouting nuts/seeds/grains and working on robust digestive system with excellent gastric juices, peristalsis, daily elimination etc. is probably better then avoiding plants because the resultant fibre, vitamin & mineral deficiencies are probably a worse deal. But that is coming from a recovering carnivore, so I am probably more prone to doing whatever I can to recover from my old orthorexic behaviours as much as I can.
Yes, I think you are right avoidance causes more issues... I guess it's more about sequencing as Regen is trying to get her zinc levels up so supplementing away from potatoes and wholegrain is maybe worth considering 🤷♀️along with all the other juggles we do 🤹♀️
One possible explanation for blood sugar changes could be linked to histamine in your diet. Your meal included several high histamine items - beef, tomatoes and green beans.
Oh yes.... good shout Jaydee... I certainly couldn't eat that meal.....I don't normally eat bananas but I do wonder whether having one once a week would act as a good clear out of my bucket 💡
Speaking for myself, I've had to stop bananas which I used to enjoy in flourless banana pancakes. Just cannot do them at all. Even an apple was making me sneeze and itch the other day, I'm in a terrible flare. I wouldn;t recommend eating anything to 'clear out your bucket'.
I'm not going to lie and sugar coat it because it's the most miserable diet on earth. Frankly there's very little left of anything you might enjoy both food and sometimes other things such as scents in cleaning products, laundry detergent etc
It's recommended to get professional help from a dietition/nutritionist that understands histamine issues but due to many people having histamine issues triggered by long Covid, they are hard to find as there weren't many in the first place and they are all booked up and not to mention expensive!
Many lists of low histamine foods and histamine liberators give conflicting advice which can obviously be confusing and unhelpful. There really is no one list that any individual can go by and be well. To be really sure of your own triggers you need to do a full elimination diet which involves going to a super simple, extremely limited diet and then adding things back in one at a time and keeping a comprehensive food & symptom diary.
Obviously vitamins are going to suffer doing all this which is where the dietitian comes in I guess. There are online suppliers of very fresh, frozen meats and fish but of course they are expensive.
There are also DAO enzymes which you can buy over the counter which would allow you to eat things you couldn't otherwise without symptoms. Very useful for eating out and taking a break from the monotonous diet!
I'll add a few links, inparticular the Sighi diet and website which is quite the bible and well respected go to place for HIT sufferers.
Ah yes and you have said this before too, I’ve been in denial, and eyes puffed up this morning, blamed the cat. Have taken 2 antihistamines 🤦🏽♀️ thank you 🙏
As I write this my eyes are streaming and my face puffed up. I don't own a cat or any animal so can't blame that. Actually I have no idea exactly what caused this, my go to excuse used to be dust mites but thats getting old now.
I should probably confess to also having been in denial so you're in good company.
Very interesting thread. I did Zoe back in January and the CGM showed I had reasonably regular hypos (I'm not diabetic, HBA1C was 31 and 29 (20-41.9) in January and May this year). I've had "the shakes" from time-to-time but just laughed it off. My GP was uninterested when I mentioned it to him. Maybe I should look into it more?
Annoyingly I only kept 5 days of screenshots from the CGM. Attached the worst of them, Many days had no hypos.
I gave up on Zoe because I found the meal entry too annoying.
This is quite similar in experience then … all us hypo hashi non diabetic types following in a similar fashion. Do you feel you make better food choices and are more steady since learning about it all?
I'm not hashis. I had my thyroid zapped after going hyperthyroid. I think the only takeaway has been to try and consume more fermented stuff for my gut, e.g. Kefir, but even that is sporadic.
I've never had my adrenals tested, it's always seemed like clutching at straws, another thing for my GP to ignore! I do sometimes crash in the afternoons like now I want to have a nap but I needed to get out of the house. Maybe I ought to look into adrenal testing. I certainly run as a reasonably stressed individual most of the time!
I've completed the Zoe course. I found it quite confusing and I agree, the muffins are dire. I ended up having a drink with mine to be able to swallow them! I had the BS monitor for 2 weeks and it is interesting seeing what spikes the rises. Be warned though. I did a full 6 months and was told I'd completed the course and become a Zoe champion or goddess or whatever they called. I decided that I didn't want to carry on paying the fee so cancelled my membership. After about 3 days I found myself locked out of the ap. It seems that once you stop paying that's it, you can't access anything. I was totally gutted, all the info I'd inputed, all the charts for the BS record, all the saved recipes and advice and meals I'd saved, gone. I protested, they weren't at all helpful, one adviser suggested I could download or copy whatever I needed, well, no you can't because you can't access the ap. I consider that info is my property and that they have no right to prevent me recovering it. So you need to be aware that you will have to save everything and anything that is meaningful to you because once you stop paying you've lost it.
Thanks for this advice, I’m so sorry you lost all this valuable info, I’m a maxed their data /admin people couldn’t send you a download. That is poor customer experience . 🌱
That is exactly my gripe. I consider all that information mine. I'm completely happy them using it to improve general healthcare but I want access to it all. I think that's why they don't have a web app - because it's easy to copy information from a web-site compared to a mobile app where the best you can do is screen-shots. They did begudgingly give me my lists of gut boosters but it seemed very short on information compared to the app.
There is such a lot of material, lots every day, I couldn't take it all in never mind remember it. I'd have been willing to pay a nominal sum for access, say £10 a month, but not over £40. I make sure I comment every time they put it on Instagram, never had a response from them though.
I consider rejoining for just one month to download (screenshots!) of all the boosters and maybe enter some meals to check it out again - I didn't really give it a fair crack of the whip.
I suppose you could, I certainly agree about not taking it all in. What pains me is all the weeks I spent logging all my meals, all lost. Had I used Cronometer or My fitness Pal they'd all still be there. Both are free.
Hello, very interested in this thread. I’ve had blood sugar dips for as long as I can remember, and suspected hypoglycaemia, but GPs don’t seem interested. In fact my Endo wasn’t really interested either.
I was thinking about a blood glucose monitor but they seem to vary in price hugely and I wouldn’t want to spend a lot, but I don’t know if the cheaper ones are any good. I would welcome any advice on choosing a machine.
If you're not diabetic, any BG machine will do, really. I follow Dr Bernstein - engineer turned MD who pioneered home testing diabetes-book.com/ - and for diabetics there are only a few they recommend. But for the rest of us not injecting insulin, even a 5-10% variance is not a huge deal in my opinion (though not ideal of course), but i'd go for what is affordable. It's the test strips that add up.
Some also have functionality to synch with your phone.
I use an AccuCheck Guide. Not sure it's on his list tho lol.
Yes unfortunately they are all different. Even within the same brand, different makes can use different strips. So you need to make sure to get the rights strips for that particular make/model.
This one is called libre, you get it for 2 weeks with the Zoe program and use it with an app on your phone easy to use. I would recommend 👍 I’ve learned so much already.
Just ordered a FL version 2 🙈 (can't get v3 here yet).
Thanks Regenallotment, or not, for sucking me into this 😂😂 Not looking forward to what I will find out lol
I used to follow a type 1 diabetic lady on twitter when i still used that app, and after she started using continuous monitoring and adapted her insulin dosing accordingly, she said the brain fog lifting was like night and day. I think we underestimate how much blood sugar dysregulation can affect everything.
Thank you! ☺️🙏 I will probably report back at some point if I remember lol. I've caught myself going into reactive hypoglycemia dips before, but obviously also high BGs, so really curious now to see what it will show!
I use a BetaCheck monitor. You don't need to buy separate strips. It is inbuilt, in a "cassette" and you just wind the tape on to a fresh part of tape each time you take a reading.
You can download the BetaCheck app and monitor your levels on your phone via bluetooth.
At the time I bought mine, I think it was about £50, and it came with a spare cassette. I expect it's gone up now though. Maybe check out the BetaCheck website?
Amazing, something hasn't gone up in price 👍. Grrr, spell ckecker.
Absolutely right....the cassette must be used within 3 months otherwise you forfeit how ever many tests remained on it. I learned the hard way and "lost" 26 tests out of the 50 on the cassette. Didn't make that mistake again. 😂
They do. You get 50 tests per cassette. And as Eeyore says, they must be used within 90 days. Longer and you waste however many you had remaining as the machine just ceases to work until you insert a new one.
I'm on Zoe too, and it sounds like Regenallotment and I started the same time, give or take.
I had my first estimated A1C result through today - bit of a shock at 6% / 42mmol/mol.
I've been digging into this and two things have come up so far:
Exercise - strength/weights training can raise blood sugar [diabetes.uk].
I do this mostly in the mornings, and fasted and I got a 10/1 reading immediately after the session ended today. Apparently strength training might be better later in the day to keep bg more level.
A1C - reasons non-diabetic people may have elevated results include: hypothryoidism, anaemia, too much vit C supplementation, too little vits Bs. [nutrisense.io; steady health.com].
I'm borderline anaemic and it'll take months to get that sorted. I'm looking to use Zoe to drill down into how to sequence what food, and when, before/after stength training at different times of day.
Amazing isn’t it, like opening a Pandora’s box of your life and spotting the errors 🤣 interesting about the exercise, I’ll have to experiment. I do yoga most days with inversions headstands etc so quite ‘strength’ like rather than floppy relaxing yoga. I’ll test with different timings and levels. Thanks for the tip 🌱
But does it really? The thyroid gland is responsible for virtually all things homeostatic in the body. Even blood sugar is affected. You have been doing loads of different things, I can’t help watching your posts and learning and becoming aware from what you choose to investigate. Particularly your recent decision about T3. Blood sugar ups and downs are a perfectly ‘normal’ response in the body, it’s only when they get out of hand that they are problematic. Maybe it was a bit soon to be tackling this job (which may not even be a job) when your body needs to settle into a new pattern, post all the other changes? As many of us might not even know what’s ‘normal’ after what we have been through, it does seem slightly ‘previous’ to me to be looking at this and thinking it needs tackling right now. Do you not want to enjoy your new found level you were posting about the other day? Your other markers are good. This might not even be a problem.
The trouble is arTistapple that you sign up for Zoe a good 6 weeks before starting and we all know things can change pretty quickly with us wonky folk 😕
But it is aimed at research, monitoring and better personalized understanding of how our own body reacts which is going to be a great insight 🤗
The Zoe programme isn't arduous, you do pretty much what you would normally but maybe in a different order or combining exercise to see how it effects you
Yes I see that AND it’s clearly very much the choice of who is doing it. It just feels such a disappointment that Regenallotment could not enjoy her ‘moment’. So is there a rigidity in signing up? Like an appointment? Once signed up you must commit no matter it might be an inappropriate moment for us ‘wonky folk’?
You can hold off starting the course once you have received your kit, so you do have a bit of leeway to fit it in as the first day or two requires some strict timings to complete the initial tests.... after that it's about keeping a food diary with lots of flexibility in the various challenges to try... 6 weeks in they give you results from the various tests and personalised guidance on improving gut health and diet...
Ah right. However I think us wonky folk just are so eager to get well, along with the illness itself, our judgement might just be clouded from time to time. At least that is my experience. My judgement is still wonky, whether it’s due to feeling better OR worse. I still can’t trust it. But it’s getting better.
I think you are bang on there!... we are trying so hard to do right and then have a mini meltdown when things go awry and question everything we do... certainly guilty of over trying.... like I said to Regen it's like learning to juggle and we just get the hang of it and someone throws us another ball 😵🤹♀️
I agree, I messaged them and asked if I could skip the challenges that I know will give me a zigzag BG graph as I would never normally eat that way and they said 100% do what you want from now on, so I’m merrily off testing my usual diet instead with the different techniques and from yesterday my BG graph is much flatter. 🌱
That's great, yes I did the first few which produced the very wonky bg results but I guess that is the idea to see how you react?.... have since been doing my own thing to fit in with what I can eat... it has been really useful, certainly carbs are a morning thing for me to get me up and running (well a brisk walk) terrible at night but can be offset with a pre load of fat or protein 😉
It is certainly biased towards weight lose and re-educating poor dieters
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