Hi all,
Just watched the news and they said they were worried about a measles outbreak. Thanks to low vaccination rates.
As a commuter, what should I think/do?
best,
Nix
Measles risk: Hi all, Just watched the news and... - CLL Support
Measles risk
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BellaBee10
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Sorry Nic no sensible suggestions and low vaccine take up rates especially worrying in London. I usually try to avoid sitting near small children on public transport
How have you been.
Colette x
Hi Colette,
I’ll do the same I think. I’m good thanks! Doing my weekly IG. No sign of ever being able to retire 
Youngest son looking for an engineering apprenticeship. Dogs are still naughty and we now have 10 bee hives. How are you keeping? I work in West London now and also spend quite a bit of time in E1. Wonder if we’re ever on the same bus!?
Nix
I am a south London gal. How much honey does 10 hives produce ? Sadly bees scare me.
Been ok until recently when Afib discovered so stopped Ibrutinib until it’s all checked, but strangely unsettling because I was comfortable with treatment, but this is a whole new learning curve !
How is the boat in this weather ? I would like to hibernate for a couple of months every year.
Colette x
Sorry about the disruption to your treatment. What’s the next step? That must be unsettling. Xx Boat is in East London now, right by London Bridge. Nice and toastie on it. Love the area, history and food. Been working in a charity kitchen at the weekends, in Poplar. I seem to be on the onions every time. They make up to 5k meals a day so I just do what I’m told. I really stink on the way back, I swear I smell more like an onion than an onion does. Hoping to get promoted to carrots one day. Think I’d like to move on a boat when the children are all old enough. BTW My family are from South London too. I was born just over the line in Kent. Xx
They are waiting for more cardiology input, and I am ok with that and two new consultants in the MDT which is very reassuring.
That part of east London is fabulous and so interesting. Is it the Felix trust you volunteer with ?
Colette
Fingers crossed for you xx
Thank you 🤞
Forgive me for inserting myself into your charming conversation, but I just have to say: good for you! Chopping onions for 5K meals, wow! Marvelous! All those people you help feed. It makes me think about what I could do! Also all those bees! Wonderful. I have a couple of chickens (5) and sometimes bring eggs to neighbors, but I'm not otherwise very helpful to anyone. I want to take a page out of your book and bravely get back into the world!
Hi Nic, I had to laugh at you smelling more like an onion than an onion does! 😕 I hope you get promoted to carrots soon! 😀
Love the photo, presumably taken from your boat? What a view!
My family were originally from Streatham, SW 16. I wish I'd explored more of London at the time. Living on the doorstep we took it for granted.
Very happy up in Yorkshire now though.
I hope you stay safe in your commuting. Have you tried a motor bike? Or an electric bike?
Paula xx
My grandad lived in Streatham! I took that pic on foot. I did try a bike and I crashed into a fence hahah. I love seeing your Yorkshire pics xx
Bella and Colette - measles is a highly contagious virus that is airborne. So use of high quality respirators can help reduce your risks. It can also spread through surface contact (fomites) so be careful to avoid touching your face/mouth/nose/eyes and continue good hand hygiene practices, , including washing hands for at least 15 seconds with soap and running water or using alcohol-based hand sanitizer (on all surfaces of the hands) that contain at least 60% alcohol when soap and running water are not available.
You may also want to check with your doctor about your MMMR booster status, however also be aware that vaccines can be less effective for those who are immunocompromised.
Sadly, I’ve seen some tweets where folks are trying to set up “measles parties” in order to expose their children to the virus.
As you say, Katie Blue, Measles is highly contagious - R0 is often cited to be 12–18, which is why it spreads so rapidly. More worrying, particularly for us, per this 2015 New Scientist article, Measles leaves you vulnerable to a host of deadly diseases
"Measles is often painted as a trivial disease by the anti-vaccination movement. It is not – it kills or causes brain damage in two or three out of every 1000 cases, even in wealthy countries. Here’s another reason it isn’t trivial: having measles destroys your immunity to other diseases – and some of those are far more deadly.
:
The measles virus is known to kill the white blood cells that have a “memory” of past infections and so give you immunity to them."
newscientist.com/article/dn...
Measles and Immune Amnesia, May 18, 2019
asm.org/articles/2019/may/m...
Bella, What a fantastic picture. It's a pity you can't commute by boat. 
I hadn't appreciated Poplar really existed after learning about it from the "Call the Midwife" series, but explored parts of it during my trips to the UK. Good on you for helping in the charity kitchen. Perhaps the onions help people keep their distance from you. Is there garlic detail?
Neil
Hello. Aussi Neil does that mean those of us that actually had measles before there was a vaccine no longer have any immunity?
We don't seem to have much in the way of members reporting having measles, which is good, because with the MMR vaccine being live, there's not much we can do to safely boost our most likely acquired natural immunity if we weren't vaccinated. Thankfully however, measles is one of the diseases where IgG can be used to provide immediate, short-term protection when given within six days after exposure, to prevent infection or make the illness less severe.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
There's also evidence that immunoglobulins from childhood measles can last at least 40 years. In this post, healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo... I quoted "Furthermore, PCs specific for Ags encountered in childhood. like those from measles or mumps, can be found in the BM of adults 40 y later (9), indicating the longevity of these cells in humans. Critically, overlap between the sequences of virus specific IgG in serum and BCRs of BM PCs identifies these cells as the source of long-lived serum Abs in humans (9, 10). In addition, in lymphoma and rheumatoid arthritis patients treated with an anti-CD20 Ab, which results in B cell (CD 20+). but not PC (CD20-), depletion, pathogen-specific Ab titers are sustained in serum (11, 12), indicating maintenance of serological memory in the absence of MBCs, similar to the findings of Slifka et al. (2) in mice."
Abbreviation key
Ab/Abs = Antibodies
Ags = Antigens
BCR = B cell receptor
BM = Bone marrow
PCs = Plasma cells - the mature B cells that produce antibodies
MBC = memory B cell
Hi Neil. Oh yes, sometimes I’m on the garlic too. Takes ages to fill a gastro! Only managed half of one in a shift. PS I love call the midwife. My former mother in law was a real life midwife there during ww2.
A word of caution, with my apologies for interjecting. It is my understanding that the MMR vaccine is a live vaccine. I quote from Wikipedia "The MMR vaccine is a mixture of live weakened viruses of the three diseases.".I have been told I should not have live vaccines, and thought the only ones I
knew of were yellow fever and the new child Flu nasal spray.
I checked with my hospital and was told not to have MMR. (It was listed as something to have following CAR-T.)
I would be very interested if anybody got a different answer and would go back to check with my hospital.
Bert to all, robin
PS. I love the discussion about London, somewhere I've avoided except for work. I feel like I need to go now.
You are correct regarding measles being a live virus. I had titers drawn last year and in spite of having measles as a child and numerous vaccines, I did not have a titer for measles. I was advised by my hematologist NOT to have the vaccine due to it being a live virus.
Yes I had the Hepatitis B Vaccine all 3 series in 2 different hospitals & years apart but still never developed titers 🤔 It was right after Nursing School, I was only just 26yrs old - did I have CLL Leukemia then??? I told this to an Infectious Disease MD casually & she said do not take this vaccine anymore… I never followed up, too busy working, raising my kids & advancing in my career.
Robin I have just double checked the picture I keep on my phone and you are correct MMR is on the don’t have in red on the list for CLL patients.
Robin there are some fabulous parts of London, so give us a try again just avoid tourist spots on a Saturday or school holidays. I often think it would be lovely to come here as a visitor, rather than someone who has always lived here. I was just checking some new exhibitions and I had totally forgotten about Two Temple Place that was the home of William Waldorf Astor in London and has an exhibition every spring, it is a beautiful building
Colette
Just looked that up. Thanks Colette. Have you seen the Huguenot houses In Spitalfields? I felt like I was being transported in time.
Wilkes St
Yes I love that part of London. I have a friend who had one of the magnificent houses in Fournier Street. And the Denis Severs house is amazing, especially at Christmas, although some of my friends didn’t like it. I suppose it’s like marmite.
Colette
I would wear gloves in public transport along with a good respirator.
Hi Colette, I wondered if you know your measles antibody status? My haematologist told me during the first lock down that I have no antibodies and so to be very cautious. I have been watching the gradual increase in cases and I ask carers of children I have contact with if they have had the MMR vaccine and sadly have chosen to avoid children I don't know. I also continue wearing a mask on the rare occasions I go into a shops, and wait outside my Gp surgery until I am called in for an appointment etc.
Dear BellaBee10.
I'm not clear whether or not you had the MMR vaccine as a child. I don't know when it came in? And, if one had it, how long relative immunity lasts.
I also wonder if having had measles as a child gives one some immunity and how one find this out.
I am almost 80 and grew up in Calgary, Canada (although now live in the UK). My mother told me that I was very ill with measles at about about age 4. (I had German measles at age 23.)
After being ill with measles, I started to stutter moderately, although at times quite badly--and this continued until my 20's when it more or less left me. Of course there is an emotional aspect to stuttering, but my mother thought that the measles had caused it, as I had not stuttered before it.
I have always assumed that being ill with both sets of measles would give me immunity, so it has never occurred to me that it it might be possible to get measles at my age. Since there is not a non-live vaccine one can get for measles, it doesn't seem that useful to get a titres test even if it were possible to get this on the NHS.
Perhaps just doing our usual levels of personal security is all we can do...... Having said that, while I always wear a mask on the underground (I live just outside north west London on the Met line, but rarely go into the city), but sing unmasked in a choir of 100. Fortunately our grandchildren who we see weekly are all vaccinated.
Love your picture of Tower Bridge, the Shard, etc, And that you have 10 bee hives! Eating local honey is supposed to be good for our immune systems I have been told! Eleanor
Single vaccines for measles were sometimes available in. Uk in early. 60s mmr was a good bit later... I'd guesstimate the mid to late 70s going. By which of my children had it
Thanks Rosetta. My children, born '73 and '75 the MMR--as did our grandchildren. I arrived in the UK in '69. We would not dream of not vaccinating!
Out of idle curiosity I checked and MMR was introduced in the U.K. in 1988 and single measles vaccine in 1968 ( I had scars from my bout of measles for ages ) The one I remember as a child was the BCG that was for TB and it left a nasty mark for years.
Colette
Hey Nic! Love the photo! And you had to come to London just when I moved out😀I thought that once we had the MMR jabs as kids and a booster in teenage years we are protected? That's my assumption. I guess the immunology team could test for that. I know they were able to tell me I did not need a tetanus jab again as I still had antibodies for that one. The whole of North part of London has about 50% of under 5s jabbed so that's concerning indeed (read an article about ut somewhere this week) - I would say it is more concerning for the parents of those children though. I'm sure you had your jabs as a child. Petra xx
Where are you now Petra ? Do you need to change hospitals.
Good luck in your new home 🏡 and new life.
Colette
Bishop's Stortford. We moved in October 22, I think I posted about it here 🙂moved on Friday and another O infusion on Wednesday, I don't even know how I did it 🙂no,I haven't changed hospitals. I continued going to Barts as had transport. Continue even now. My appointments are less frequent so it's manageable. I can do bloods locally and then see my consultant at Barts. I still go to Whipps Cross hospital for more specialist blood tests - mainly just immunology which is twice a year. It's a 35-40min drive. We love it here. It's so peaceful and green. I am not planning on changing hospitals, the other nearest one would be in Cambridge and that's probably not that closer to be honest with you. Thank you xxx hope your cats are doing well 🙂❤️
Thank you 🐈🐈 one is especially clever. I used to think I was untidy leaving towels on the bathroom floor until I realised that one of them was pulling the bath towel down so he had a warm soft bed.
Cambridge also has an excellent reputation if you ever decided to change. I hope the family have all settled in well.
Colette
AussieNeilAdministrator
Here's a timely video with transcription by Dr Paul Offit, published on January 26, 2024.
Why Measles Keeps Popping Up in Pockets of the U.S.
— Paul Offit, MD, on the history of the MMR vaccine and the lasting legacy of COVID
medpagetoday.com/infectious... (Registration required)
Snips:
The first measles vaccine was introduced in 1963. The last, best measles vaccine was introduced in 1968. Now before vaccines were available, every year in the United States there would be 3 to 4 million cases of measles, there would be 48,000 hospitalizations, and 500 deaths. But by 1968, we had an excellent vaccine, a vaccine where one dose would provide 93% immunity protection against measles.
By 1971, we had combined that measles vaccine with two other vaccines: the mumps and rubella vaccines to create the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine.
But in order to get herd immunity, in order to completely stop the spread of measles, you need to have vaccination rates -- or rates of natural infection and vaccination -- of about 95%, and we weren't there yet. Because it is the most contagious of the vaccine-preventable diseases. It is five times more contagious than COVID, five times more contagious than flu, so you need a very high level of immunity
Dr Offit then describes how extra doses boosted immunity to measles to 97%, thereby eliminating measles from the USA. He then continues;
But measles has come back for two reasons, the second of which is the most worrisome.
The first was Andrew Wakefield, a British surgeon who published in February of 1998 a paper in The Lancet, which was a respected general medical journal, claiming that the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine caused autism, for which he offered no proof. All he had were eight children who had recently received the MMR vaccine, who within a month of receiving that vaccine had developed autism.
Now, this was in no way a study, it was just a case series. And very quickly studies were done. There were 18 studies done in seven countries on three different continents looking at children who did or didn't receive the MMR vaccine, showing that there was no difference in the rate of autism between the vaccinated or unvaccinated group. For that reason, and because that paper had certain biological and clinical misrepresentations, that paper was retracted.
But I think the bigger reason was COVID, because what happened with COVID was we mandated vaccines in what many considered to be a draconian fashion. You had to be vaccinated or you couldn't go to work or you couldn't go to school or you couldn't go to your favorite restaurant or you couldn't go to a sporting event or you couldn't go to your place of worship. And there was a real rebellion to that. People didn't like that.
Dr Offit concludes;
What's happened is about 35% of American parents don't think there should be any school vaccine mandates, period.
If you look in November of this year, the CDC published a paper in Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report medpagetoday.com/pediatrics... showing that for the first time you see a clear drop in kindergarten immunization rates from about 95% to 92%, which puts us below the level of herd immunity necessary for protection against measles.
I think that's what we're up against, now. We're up against pushing back against school mandates. And if we do that, and if we do that successfully and we largely eliminate school vaccine mandates, measles will be the canary in the coal mine. It will be the first virus to come roaring back.
Measles can make you sick, and measles can make you hospitalized, and measles can make you dead. This is not a disease we want to relive.
Neil
AussieNeilAdministrator
Nix, Sorry, but I keep finding relevant material on measles to add to your post, such as these snips from Your Local Epidemiologist, Katelyn Jetelina, published on 30 January 2024 and Dr Susan Oliver, published on 5th February 2024, respectively.
open.substack.com/pub/yourl...
Can I get measles if I’m fully vaccinated?
The MMR vaccine works incredibly well—you’re 35 times less likely to get measles than someone with no immunity.
But nothing is perfect. A breakthrough case is rare but possible (3 out of 100 fully vaccinated people will get infected). The disease does tend to be milder.
We don’t know why there are breakthrough cases, but there are two possibilities:
- Waning immunity (see more below); or
- Vaccine didn’t work in the first place for whatever reason. 5% of people do not get protection after the first dose, but 95% of those will be fully protected after a second dose.
:
If we are protected from measles for life, why are there booster rumors?
I think this happening for a few reasons:
- MMR combines protection for three diseases into one shot: Measles, mumps, and rubella. Each of these wanes at different rates, which is confusing:
- Measles. Measles antibodies are incredibly durable (the most durable of the three) but wane over time. This isn’t too concerning because we have T cell protection, too. Studies that followed people for 17 years showed the vast majority (~91%) remained above the threshold needed for protection. What happens if they continue to wane? We are at the mercy of time, but currently, outbreaks continue to occur among unvaccinated people.
:
The guidance says if you were born before 1957, it is assumed you had measles and you’re fully protected. This group can probably skip getting MMR for measles protection unless other factors are at play (e.g., chemotherapy).
Dr Susan Oliver on the risks from measles infections
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