I was already aware for a few years that autophagy, which is triggered by intermittent fasting and long fasts, is very useful to prevent cancer as it is recycles old damaged proteins that could otherwise turn into cancer and also because it helps your body produce new cells and refreshes your immune system .
But I've heard something new earlier this week that is disconcerting. While autophagy is still believed to be a strong tool to use to promote health and fight cancer, some now believe that if you already have cancer, then autophagy can help strengthen the cancer instead of making it weaker.
Did anyone else here hear about this? And if so, do you have more info about this?
I do intermittent fasting, only eating between 11h00 and 18h00 and find it makes me feel much better than when I used to eat 3 times a day, I have also enjoyed how rejuvenated I've felt after doing 3-4 days of water fasting and even once did a 18-days water fast which cured me of allergies and, weirdly, had made it so I no longer needed my glasses for about 30 days following the fast.
But I now wonder if this is still good for me. To compound how difficult this is for me to assess is the fact that I am presently 7 months post-treatment.
I don't know if I should count myself in the category of people who want to prevent cancer, in which case I should aim to reach autophagy as often as possible to prevent a recurrence.
Or if I should count myself as having cancer, in which case there might be a possibility that autophagy might instead help in triggering a recurrence.
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Very good question - interesting to me as well because I have done intermittent fasting and even extended. I'm not really doing it now. And recently and stupidly tried a one meal a day idea - and seriously crashed but that was because I was protein starved and not directly related to my metastatic prostate cancer 😃
I think that one meal a day (OMAD) can be even better than the two meals a day in a restricted window that I have done and am still doing now. However the meal has to be nutritious. I always make sure that I get about 6 ounces of meat each and plenty of vegetables. Even vegans should aim for food that provides proteins though in their case, they would need to take supplements as, if I remember correctly, vegan proteins only decompose into 6 amino acids vs the 9 you get from meat proteins.
In terms of complete proteins smarter vegetarians know how to combine I think it's legumes and grains to make a complete protein. As for OMAD, what ever the metabolic benefits, if one is exercising a lot oh mad cannot deliver enough protein. My understanding is that in a single meal you're not going to get anywhere near the total protein you need if you are exercising hard on a regular basis. I learned a lesson this fall about not eating enough protein while exercising at least an hour a day five or six days a week.And while I'm at it this question of exercise and protein is yet another dimension of the world of "fighting cancer coaching" which is mostly missing in action in terms of medical therapies and palliative care and feel good articles about quality of life.
Problem is: studies are indicating that you cannot metabolize more than 40-50grams of proteins at a time (there were guys wasting a lot of money and a lot of kidneys in the ‘90 drinking 100g of proteins supplements at a time!! )
Vegan proteins (from food, not from supplements) can become complete and contain all the aminos needed by combining different sources. But if you don’t, they are less absorbed because they do not have all the amino acids in the right proportion (that is what makes vegetable proteins less noble, proportions)….you can always eat and twice the amount! 😃
I was told the same by a British nurse that I should eat multiple times small amount of proteins in order to improve my blood protein levels when I asked her why are my blood protein levels always low.
Some articles say that vegan diet, by combining incomplete proteins, can easily yield the 9 amino acids needed. I haven't read anything that contradicts that.
My testosterone and psa levels post the end of my "curative intent" treatment which ended in May 2023. Pre-treatment my testosterone was around 18.1 nmol/L
In May 2023 my testosterone was < 0.1 nmol/L and my PSA was 0.01.
In August 2023 my testosterone was 3.3 nmol/L and my PSA was 0.09.
In October 2023 my testosterone was 11.3 nmol/L and my PSA was 0.14.
Yesterday, Dec 5 2023, my testosterone was 11.9 nmol/L and my PSA was 0.22.
So still below the threshold of 2.0 for someone who has a radiated prostate. Nevertheless, it will keep on making me nervous until the day where I, hopefully, will see it settle under the threshold for at least 2-3 test. Until then, every time it rises a little I have to wonder if the treatment failed or if it is simply because my testosterone is feeding regular non-cancerous prostate cells. And that is also why, at present time I cannot be certain if autophagy is working for me or against me.
"In cancer, autophagy can play neutral, tumor-suppressive, or tumor-promoting roles in different contexts and stages of cancer development, which is determined by nutrient availability, microenvironment stress, pathogenic conditions, and the presence of an immune system."
"Autophagy is important for the quality control of the cells such as removing damaged mitochondria, and its defective proteins (e.g., heterozygous knockdown Beclin1 and Atg7 in mice) promote the malignant transformation and spontaneous tumors;
on the other hand, once the tumors progress to late stage, autophagy can function as a cellular protective, survival, and defense mechanism, maintain functional mitochondria, reduce DNA damage, and enhance the survival and resistance of the cancer cells against stress (e.g., nutrient deprivation, hypoxia, DNA damage metabolic stress, and chemotherapy), and then sustain tumor metabolism, growth, and survival and then mediate tumor promotion and development, finally promotes tumorigenesis and causes resistance to therapeutic agents . It is reported that autophagy can contribute to the aggressiveness of the cancers by facilitating metastasis . The effect of autophagy on cancers is dependent on multiple factors including tumor microenvironment, cancer type and stage, and genetic background."
"Through the identification of Beclin1, an essential autophagy gene, autophagy is first linked to human cancer. The Beclin1, as a haploid-insufficient tumor suppressor, is mono-allelically deleted in human hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC), breast, ovarian, and prostate cancers [114, 115, 190, 191] and in mice tumor prone [192]. It is reported that the expression of Beclin1 in cancer tissues was down-regulated in 44 patients with hepatocellular carcinoma, and it was concluded that autophagy might inhibit tumorigenesis [190]"
"Autophagy has a dual role both in progression and inhibition of cancer. Hitherto many data support a dynamic role of autophagy in cancer, both as a tumor suppressor early in progression and as a cancer promotor later in tumor maintenance and therapeutic resistance."
My interpretation of the article is that if I have no active metastases it may help prevent getting any but if I have some hidden ones, it may help them proliferate. Difficult to know which way to go.
how can you even be sure if you have active metastasis. they may be too small for a scan to see yet still exist. Didnt Guy Tannenbaum do a prolonged fast while already being stag e4?
Yes, Guy did on several occasions. One thing he omitted mentioning in his early days of trying to save himself is that he had his testicules removed because he was having some kind of reaction when he tried ADT. So not having those likely played a role with his victory over prostate cancer, in addition to the fasting and proper diet and supplementation. What I just can't understand about his is that his PSA test results are <0.01 even though he still has a prostate. Ok he does not have testicucles that would produce testosterone but he still has adrenal glands that should be producing some.
No testicles but a prostate? Hadn't thought about that, but I guess it happens!
Hi,
Can you please provide a creditable medical link to justify your accertation, hearsay is very often ill will for those gullible enough to believe, or whispered eagerly to those depressives who are in need to share a particular apathy.
Why would you think you'd need to apologize for asking a question? You were not rude or anything of the kind.
My post was not a statement but a question. The links I provided afterwards came from what came up from further research. Sorry if I gave you the vibe that I was presenting fact I was sure of. That was not my intent as I did ask in my post if anyone knew more about this.
On the contrary in your post heading second paragraph your wrote: "But I've read something new earlier this week etc...this was your statement! Which was leading to a question.
And my apology was for the depressives who read these posts for not intending to mentally harm anyone, or as well I suppose those gullible.
Saying "I've read something new earlier this week" is not an indication that was I read was indisputably accurate. What I initially read was this sentence saying "Autophagy may act as a strong protective barrier against disease. But, if you already have cancer, autophagy can aid the growth and progression of cancer." which was taken from the description of the Eric Berg video at youtube.com/watch?v=vx6Rkgo...
That raised my awareness that there could be such a thing as autophagy possibly being harmful under some circumstances. I had not heard of that before. So I came here and wrote the post to inquire about it. Then after more research I posted a few links.
You mention you not wanting to mentally harm gullible people. Who are you categorizing as such? Those who believe in the benefits of autophagy or those who might believe it could be harmful if you already have cancer?
I stand by of which I wrote. Firstly you did make a statement and not firstly a question.I see you picked on my secondary popualtative group the 'gulable, neglecting my apology towards depressives, this in reference your speculation report from an unsafe paper that fasting increases tumor growth,
Btw: I and many after me abore downers I hope your not gathering speed in this direction.
Yes, your topic heading finished with a question mark, but this isn't an enough excuse for any personal veracity excusing, neither will it ever stand scrutiny.
I'm then eluding to your error of which you continue to avoid, admittance of your sentence as already pointed out was a statement!
Rita, I doubt I could say anything that would alleviate your anger. You try to presume what my intents were without even knowing me. If you did, you'd know that I am not a downer that is trying to steer people away from autophagy since I openly wrote in several posts and replies that I practice it myself. But after becoming aware that it might be dangerous in some instances, I had to inquire about it in hope to learn more about that aspect of it.
Chill the f out, he explained how he wrote it and if you can’t understand that, that’s your problem. Quit over analyzing this by chastising him n move on…
I'm surprised TA hasn't weighed in on this. I've read for some time that autophagy is a two-edged sword. Like many things, I think once you have cancer, its normal mechanism can get screwed up. Like during or following chemo, the dying, exiting cancer cells become foods for the still-living cancer cells. Google that. It's fact that I have read that many times; whether it actually is a fact is beyond me.
to get back to your original worry…yes I have read the same research as well in the past, autophagy can be a mechanism of survival. I took a different approach with my chemo, using a fast mimicking diet 48 hours before till 24 after chemo. They are studying its effects also at the European oncology center in Milan because it enhances the effects of chemo, as non malignant cells tend to go “dormant” when starved while cancer cells cannot and they become easier targets. But apart from that, I have to take darolutamide twice a day and it must be taken with some food to be absorbed (so no strict window is possible apart from 12-12). So I try to have only a healthy snack in the evening.
That was my dilemma as well. I had 38 consecutive sessions so while I have done long fasts on several occasions, there was no way for me to fast 3 days before and one day after the treatment since the treatment was every day.
I had seen the Walter Lungo video on this as well as another one where a judge had tried chemo with and without fasting and concluded that it was much more tolerable when fasting. I did not have chemo as I had instead 38 sessions of radiation so I could not fast throughout the treatment. But with my active treatment over since May, I've resumed my intermittent daily fasts and did a 4 days fast in June. My only concern is having learned that autophagy can work against us in the metastases scenario and not being sure where I fall in this now that my treatments are completed.
What were the effects during and after radiation treatment? My PSA has gone down to .24 from .28 last 2 mnths by taking Tumeric and decided to delay the treatment to see if the trend continues.
I do not clearly understand your question that says "What were the effects during and after radiation treatment?".
If you are talking about the impact of fasting during the radiation treatment, I can't say as I mentioned that since the treatment was not once a week but everyday, it was not possible for me to fast throughout the 38 sessions. Had it been a once a week thing, then fasting could have helped with radiation in a similar way that it does with chemo, which is that it slows down the division of regular cells which protects them from the treatment while the cancer cells remain active and become the main target of the treatment.
If you meant what were the side-effects of the radiation itself, the first one I had was after my 3rd session where it felt like I had gotten sunburned on the inside of my anus and that feeling lasted a few days. At first the technical team thought that maybe I was more vulnerable to the treatment as they don't normally hear a patient say this so early. But since I had no further problems of the kind in my other sessions, I think that maybe it could have been me that somehow moved slightly during the 3rd session and made the radiation beam hit something other than what it was programmed to target. I don't know.
If you meant something else altogether, then please ask again using other words
I take about 2 teaspoons a day with warm milk. Just meant the side effects in general during and after your treatment. My radiation specialist sd he had patients who would do the radiation goto the gym and work and by end of the day they felt tired. Im thinking were his patients The Avengers. How long did each session take? Just wondering how will it affect my job schedule if I go with this.
You just reminded me that I have also suffered from fatigue during the radiation treatment. I think I was not too bad during the first week or two and I was working every day but eventually I became too tired and took some vacation from work. I put my gym sessions on pause for a while too. I think each radiation session was a little over an hour. Something like 30 minutes of calibration and 30 minutes of actual radiation. Hope this helps.
Drago I had 25 radiation treatments to my prostate and pelvic area. Total actual time in the machine getting the radiation was about 10 minutes. Elapsed time from arrival to departure was between 45 to 60 minutes.
I went to the gym everyday right after radiation and hiked with my dogs for about 1 hour to 1+30. After the gym and before the hike I took a 30 minute nap. Both of these activities really helped the fatigue. I lost 12 pounds due to exercise and the diet the RO had me on.
I continue the same daily routine after radiation.
Everyone if different. I am 78 and was on Lupron which really had more of an effect on me than SE of radiation.
In the third week of radiation I could not go to the gym because of diarrhea from the radiation. By week 4 I was able to continue my walks and gym workouts.
Hope this answers your question above about radiation.
Thanks, that puts me a little at ease. Im assuming your retired. If you were working would this affect your job? Did all your symptoms from radiation disappear?
Yes I am retired and I am 6 months out of radiation and all my SE are gone. I am also 2 months out of Lupron. I had a huge drop in testosterone going from 687 to undetectable score. Because of all my exercise I had minimal Lupron SE.
In regards to work it depends on what your profession is. As a USAF pilot I would not have been able to do that. As a Professor no problem. As a hands on house designer and general contractor I would have been able to do that.
Once again your individual job requirements and your reaction to ADT and radiation SE will be the driver.
Careful, it seems that turmeric (curcumin) can cause false PSA readings. I use it but I stop 48 hours prior to chemo (they test my PSA prior to chemo). Then I wait at least 48 hours after the chemo...my mind works like that, it's an antioxidant, it helps cells, also the bad ones, I want chemo to do its job before restarting
Heres what I dont understand, if Tumeric skews the PSA, how can stopping it for 2 days make a difference on PSA, if someone was taking for a couple months prior to test. Its like telling someone to stop sugary snacks for 2 days b4 their diabetic test because it will show better results, even though they eat sugary snacks for the entire year.
Because it's not cumulative I suppose (and I say I suppose because it's entirely based on what I have found checking online).
Check the bioavailability and half life of curcumin online, it's in the order of few hours, so stopping for 48 hours should be enough to have a correct reading.
Your example is correct but we are trying to avoid the contrary of what you state, we are trying to avoid a false good result when the situation is bad. Not only, curcuming is a "good guy" an antioxidant that can anyway help general health, the only bad side is that it can create that false reading (and also that part...it's a risk, not a fact)
It does not lower your PSA actually, by acting on you as a medicine, it alters only the readings...it's more like failing an alcohol test because you used the wrong mouthwash I would say
All diseases are related to inflammation in the body. Tumeric is an anti-inflammatory. I will try out what you stated and see if it makes any difference on my next PSA test
I am not sure it would alter it for anyone and every time, but I don't even think that stopping it for 48 hours is that huge loss in terms of turmeric intake, so I personally don't take the risk but it would be an interesting experiment
Tumeric will give you a falsely low PSA. It interferes with the test methodology. I learned that the hard way a few years ago and was quite disappointed since I thought that I was making progress. Discontinue Tumeric for at least two days prior to a PSA test. At least, that's been my experience.
I'm untrusting of anything coming out of China twisted around and pampered up enough to be printed in the Library of Medicine.
What you plan to do is what I would have done myself had I undergone chemo instead of radiation. If you can stave us the killing of rapidly dividing cells such as hair and nails, though cold and fasting, all while leaving the cancer cells exposed to the treatment, I don't see what harm there would be.
Very interesting article Davenj, thank you. I like that it is titled "Autophagy: Cancer’s Friend or Foe?" as that is what I am still trying to assess. If there comes a time when I am convinced that autophagy could be harmful to my situation, there are apparently some natural autophagy inhibitors that one can take. It is discussed in ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... . Things were simpler when I was under the belief that there were only benefits to autophagy rather then "it depends".
Hi,
I can't go along strictly with your humour, the Chinese are very intelligent by way of inventiveness, most tho have an issue rolling their R's in speech its amusing to them also I think, other than this I hesitate to giggle.
From your referenced comment above, It appears that you've never crossed the pond to visit the United States....and only heard American spoken on the Telly.
Come on over, the war's over and we love the Brits....
Happy Christmas and a Wonderful 2024 to you and yours....
I don't have any inclination to swim the Atlantic Ocean, as for a visit there I don't wish to be shot by anyone like Tony Sporanzo mob I'd rather take my chances crossing the street in the London traffic.
Rita, Rita, Rita....... I'm sorry, but I just realized you're in the wrong "room"......This room is for "male" Advance Prostate Cancer members and their caregivers. The female Ovacome room is down the hall....
BTW Ink wells have gone the way of buggy whips.....and automobile hand crank starters. However, I must admit that I am a "crank" and usually a trouble "starter"....
Awfully sorry to disappoint your egotropic crank starter John, Cancer doesn't discriminate, it's male female or adults or even young children who attract this Cancer curse.
So I like to read members personal progress male or female, wherever tumors grow or recede interest me as well, to be well read thereof mostly regarding via new medical data improvements as chemo and maintenance therapy.
Please feel free to visit Overian further down the hall, I'm usually not too far away, you may shout out my name ..Rita! I'll come running..
Of course you're welcomed here, I just thought you might have made the wrong turn in the corridor.....Maybe a change in your UserID to SeñoRita would have been a clue that you're here for information and not as a Pca caregiver. We do not discriminate if any member wishes to participate in our posts. So pull up a warm and cozy chaere and post as much as you want. (note: We would appreciate it you would tell us your bio, all information is voluntary).
I will respond in American to your invitation for me to to visit Oca down the hall....... "I'm Good".
oh fuck more complications. now i don't know what to do. my PSA has been doubling fast while dong intermittent fasting but i think that trend started well before fasting? have to check the time map. husband says maybe as much as three weeks fasting and psa has been climbing for months. just this last month the doubling rate was slightly longer than the two before. i wish i had a clone with PC so i could do a trial on myself
Autophagy is part of the natural and ubiquitous process of maintaining the health and integrity of ALL cells in our body. It is not specific to cancer cells. It is the intracellular process of breaking down damaged cellular components in lysozomes and proteozomes so the cell can rebuild and renew its components. It goes on all the time and without it we would quiickly die. 99.9% of your body's cells are not cancer cells. Allow the process to work, it is very carefully regulated. I am not aware of an intervention or treatment that would only stop repair in cancer cells and leave the rest of your body alone.
I am going to ask a stupid question. Lets say that you weigh 150 pounds and you've had all the treatments available to cure your cancer and they all failed.
Now you know that the cancer is killing you because you are not eating much and you are losing weight.
If fasting kills cancer cells by the time you weigh 80 pounds you should be cancer free.
Always there are apparently so many questions without pausable answers, because I suppose Cancer medications and side effects differ for each patient.
To attempt a reply to you in saying it's not the Cancer's direct effect, but the Chemotherapy time set and thereafter perhaps the maintenance drug is causation of weight loss?
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