Quality of life better on Bipolar Androgen Therapy?

[nuc1111]

I would appreciate your feedback-Thank you.

Ed

[mrscruffy]

Personally, my quality of life is great, could be better but considering the alternative I will take it

[nuc1111 in reply to mrscruffy]

did bat improve your life compared to before on only ADT? Thanks

[mrscruffy in reply to nuc1111]

I am not doing a traditional BAT program, just portions of it. A hybrid so to speak

[tango65]

Yes,

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[Sailing-Todd in reply to tango65]

This is a great article thank you. Lots of detail but easy to read.

[MateoBeach in reply to tango65]

Agree. QOL is through the roof on high T cycles compared with castrate. No surprise. Limitation of that Patient Guide is that it only follows parameters followed for his and others original BAT trials. The one month cycles were not optimal as patients never were actually castrate, due to the long half life of T-cypionate. And yes it does work in hormone sensitive PC as it is doing for me and for others who are currently using it. Perhaps even better in HSPC, but there has only been one small trial so far (Schweitzer). More trials will follow. It is a field and treatment in progress.

[Rickmartin1948 in reply to MateoBeach]

Sorry hear about y'all on HIGH T and I am about to go on LOW T , what's the trick? Sorry to sound ignorant but I am.

[MateoBeach in reply to Rickmartin1948]

Low T ("castrate") <20nG/dL is standard treatment for PC (ADT). Slows or stops progression for years, but eventually fails. Some of us are doing BAT. Bipolar Androgen Therapy, alternating very high testosterone for some weeks or months with periods of very low of castrate T, in an attempt to prolong responsiveness while mitigating the adverse effects of ADT on the body and QOL.

[nuc1111 in reply to MateoBeach]

Does it improve your quality of life?Thanks

Ed

[MateoBeach in reply to nuc1111]

Oh yes! Remember how you felt and how your body worked when you were 25? Like that, but with the wisdomYou have today.

[nuc1111 in reply to MateoBeach]

Thanks so much- how long have you been BAT?

[Rickmartin1948 in reply to MateoBeach]

Thanks a lot MateoBeach, I am the stage where I've had a couple of ADT cycles after RP in 1/2018 and now undergoing SBRT for a couple of little buggers in my left illiac and one lymph node before going back into ADT responsive so far, but I take on your experience and your savy, thanks again

[kaptank]

During high T, sittin' on top a'da world!

[addicted2cycling]

smurtaw wrote --- " I miss the 2 years that I did high T continuously. 2 years of heavenly bliss "

What number was your HIGH *T* ???

[nuc1111]

and how was the quality of life?Thanks. Ed

[nuc1111]

thanks-Ed

[addicted2cycling]

I'm back on bi-weekly *T* injections, got one 2 hours ago. Post injection the *T* gets to 1,600ng/dL with absolutely NO INDICATIONS other than muscles feel better after a bike ride. Gonna continue until PSA rises to SCAN LEVEL and stop if needed. Playing my own BAT Modified Game. Might consider asking Dr. if I can weekly inject for a higher *T* if things progress nicely.

I'm just GAMING for Quality not Quantity. No biking right now since a WILD HOG hit me last Tuesday 3am while bicycling and I'm off all weight left leg at least 8 weeks for fracture to heal. If it happens a 3rd time I've been told by cycling friends that I should consider killing the hog for BACON. 😀

[nuc1111 in reply to addicted2cycling]

thanks. Ed

[MateoBeach in reply to addicted2cycling]

Sorry to hear about the collision and fracture A2C. That can really set you back, but testosterone supports optimal healing via spinal nerve-muscle-bone effects. Send me some bacon if you run across any.🤣🐗

[addicted2cycling in reply to MateoBeach]

MateoBeach wrote --- " ... Send me some bacon if you run across any. ... "

You're on my list of customers. 🐷

[maggiedrum]

I was bipolar when I got the Lupron (ADT) 3-month injection. Within 3 weeks I started 11 months of the worst depression I have ever had, with no breaks from my previously monthly mania. So it was solid massive depression where I considered suicide everyday to get rid of it.

I should note that it seems that not all bipolar is the same. Mine was always on a regular monthly cycle. I always told my mental health professionals, who have been proscribing me meds for years, about that expecting they would say that this was fairly common. I always suspected that my body had an internal "clock" that varied my hormone (testosterone) level much like women have monthly variations in estrogen which is the female analog of testosterone.

When the ADT drove my testosterone to just above zero, I went in to never-ending depression of the worst kind. And - it did not last just for the supposed 3-month time release of the Lupron shot, but it went on for 11 months. That "ended" almost a year ago. My bipolar changed to unipolar and I now no longer have manic periods although my depression does vary some. I suspect I have underlying mixed episodes which are a component of bipolar for many people.

During the 11 months of depression my QOL was basically zero. I could only stay in bed with no interest or motivation to do anything. Going to the bathroom and meals were my only activities. When I finally started getting better I knew I needed exercise so I tried walking. I found I could no longer control my walking and I ended up having to go to Physical Therapy to regain my balance and learn how to walk for more than short distances.

As I said, it seems that many who are on ADT and are bipolar don't have any problems like I did. But I can tell you I would rather die tomorrow than do ADT again. My MO says that he won't put me on any of the 2nd gen meds either since they basically affect the effects of testosterone (not all of them perhaps but most). I can't do ADT so I am basically untreatable. I don't have any mutations in my genes to treat either. So I will just have to monitor the progress of the cancer. My life expectancy is dramatically less than those who are on ADT. So if you can tolerate ADT, that is the SOC (standard of care) for those not yet castration-resistant and treatable with 2nd gen meds.

I asked my MO if there was anyway to have those like me do a trial run on a shorter period ADT med and he said there isn't. It doesn't matter to me anyway since I know I can't tolerate it. I am at peace, as much as I can be, with my life expectancy (unpredictable for me with low grade metastasis in my lymph nodes). I choose QOL over a longer life as a vegetable in bed.

Good luck to all those who can tolerate the ADT and I hope no one else goes through what I did. I can only pity those who do.

[nuc1111 in reply to maggiedrum]

Thanks for your long reply- wishing you the best-Ed

[Jac_J in reply to maggiedrum]

Thats some pretty serious side effects.

I have been on ADT for 14 months. No mental health issues. In fact Im pretty happy and healthy.

I have been trying to come to a conclusions why. Medical health professionals often comment on positive I am. Maybe thats a comparison?

I wonder what lifestyle attributes contribute to the feeling of well being. I personally believe these are very important.

My situation is I live in a warm and sunny environment (or travel to one frequently). I exercise every day. Hard. Generally more than 1hr. I dont count 'sport' as exercise generally. I eat healthy. I dont drink. I travel when I can. Im financially stable. I work 24hrs /weekly as a consultant in the banking industry (but will cut down soon).

Do these lifestyle attributes differ significantly from other members? If so in what way?

In terms of attitude. I fear nothing. I dont fear death from PCa. I accept it. This eliminates any victim mentality or 'why me'. I live as I always have done. Maybe more fully as I appreciate that I have a finite life span. Every day is precious. To be savoured.

Im currently sitting on my balcony overlooking the river, in the sunshine knowing that I will take out my jet ski for an hour later today. Then I will exercise. Work from home today. Tonight I will have a MRI on my shoulder which has 2 complete rotator cuff tears. Surgery preparation. This is not a 'flex' and I understand some people may not be able physically or otherwise able to enjoy a great lifestyle.

Can others please detail their environment/lifestyle at the stages in which they experienced depression.

[maggiedrum in reply to Jac_J]

Hi, Thanks for your reply. From what I have seen, even personally with my older brother who had been on ADT for 20 years, most men do fine with ADT, other than the numerous other side effects. But for them depression is either a non-issue or just a small issue. The chemistry of depression is a complex subject and there are obviously different expressions and causes of it. For me, my environment can be the most positive and should be happy one on the planet and I still get severe depression. I can cope with it, sometimes, better then every thing around me is good, but that is only sometimes. Usually it just ruins my time anywhere. I don't visit friends or go on trips or go to the gym. Exercise is one of the best things to do but when mine is bad I can't muster the motivation and energy to do it. It sucks but is what it is. I'm just lucky I guess.

[addicted2cycling]

The 200mg biweekly since January, 2016

[Jac_J]

Impressive. You give me hope and inspiration.

Before I start BAT I want to try some SARM's.

- Which one(s) have you tried and from which distributer?

- Did the SARM increase your T or PSA reading?

When I have time in a month I will book my PSMA-PET and initiate the process of commencing BAT (when I find Oncologist that is onboard).

[Jac_J]

A fantastic answer as usual.

How you have so references on hand quickly is very commendable.

I will order some SARM's today. Im in Australia and SARM's are really legal and harder to get. I know some oversea's distributers can import though.

I experimented with Ostarine in December. 3 months after conclusion of chemo. Results were debatable but they were sourced through a local manufacturer which I dont think were tested to any degree.

Thanks