Complicated or Complex

[Javelin18]

In my posts I’ve said that the human body is complex. I’d like to use an analogy to explain what I mean.

A modern automobile is complicated. It has Automatic Braking Systems that sense when a wheel is locking up, and pulse the brakes at a high rate. The engine has a Mass Flow Sensor that measures the amount of oxygen in incoming air, so the computer can regulate how long the fuel injectors spray.

All the systems are independent and can be described by mathematical equations. Because of this it’s possible to create an autopilot to drive the car

Even though the system is complicated, the driver doesn’t need to understand how the systems work. When you push on the gas pedal, the car accelerates. When you turn the wheel to the left, the car turns to the left.

If there was feedback between the control systems the car would be complex instead of complicated. When you turned the wheel to the left, the car would accelerate. When you pressed the brakes, the car would turn to the right. This kind of car would be extremely difficult to drive.

If you didn’t understand the interaction of complex controls, the car would also be very difficult to drive. You might turn on the radio only to see the car move two lanes to the left.

The human body is complex. There are known and unknown interactions and feedback paths. Also, cancer is adaptable. This is why it is difficult to find a cure, not because of a worldwide conspiracy of the medical system to keep people sick and kill them for profit.

In vitro tests show the relationship between drugs and disease. If the system were merely complicated, in vitro tests would translate directly into cures. Because it’s complex, they don’t. We don’t fully understand cancer or the body, so the only way to see if something reduces disease it’s by trial and error. We poke at it and see what happens.

This doesn’t mean we won’t figure it out. Humans learned not to eat poisonous plants by Royal and error. All the advancement of the modern world were developed by the trial and error of the scientific method. It does mean that it will take time

The members of this forum are not merely passive players in this game. Through our collective experience, learning and discussions with our doctors, we help increase the body of knowledge to eventually find the cure.

[totom]

Amen brother.

[Tall_Allen]

Ever tried to fly a helicopter? There are just four controls, but they all interact, and the response times differ for all of them. Hovering seems like it should be easy - just do nothing, right?- in fact, it is difficult to learn how to do it - I've tried.

I agree very much about the complexity of the body. I see some patients on here who think they can outsmart millions of years of evolution by overloading with some herb or other. We've also seen people who think they can reason their way through cancer therapy, or Covid-19 therapy, or [insert disease name here] therapy. Reason is of very limited use when it comes to biology. Biological systems and interactions are always more complex than anyone imagines. Only slow and painstaking empirical observation is useful when it comes to biological systems.

[Jvaughan0 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Reasoning with our mortality is simply a barter, a wishful deal to keep us safe. Confidence in our own knowledge and insights always work until it don't. Such reasoning and self-confidence seem linked together as different sides of faith's coin. They both have their place in the economy of the soul. Empirical data certainly gives us a science of clarity that guides the many, but can abandon the few. Each search is indeed complicated. Our anecdotes don't save us, but they are the last, best thing in this Pandora's Box.

[Javelin18]

I agree that statistical means tell you the best way to treat a large number of people, but don’t always tell you the best way to treat an individual patient. I’m a good example of this.

My urologist told me I’m only the third case they’ve seen like me in 20 years. The standard care probably won’t work for me, and I’ve argued for ignoring the data when I think it’s appropriate.

I also think there is merit in understanding outlier cases. I’ve found I learn more from information that challenge my framework, than things that confirm it.

It’s hard to draw the line between chasing the wrong new cure , and following the statistical mean approach. Especially since standard care isn’t curative. I take supplements along with my prescriptions too.

Im also humble enough to respect other patients decisions about their care. I don’t have much time to find the answer, so I try to blend trial evidence with in vitro evidence, hoping to get lucky.

[LowT]

Words of wisdom. And the context is always changing. Each case of anything is unique with it's own context. First rule is do no harm.

[MateoBeach]

Your automobile vs human cancer is a fine way to put it. Here is my post on cancer as a complex adaptive system from last year:

healthunlocked.com/advanced...

[Javelin18 in reply to MateoBeach]

Thanks for pointing me to that. It’s a great summation of a difficult topic. I’ll have to dig into the responses

[j-o-h-n]

As a teenager I learned how to ride in the back seat of my car.............damn high heel shoe marks on the ceiling......

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 11/29/2021 6:37 PM EST