Is brim a waste of money
Brim: Is brim a waste of money - Advanced Prostate...
Brim
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Ptclassics
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34 Replies
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Last fall, this board was FULL of posters raving about how wonderful BRIM was..You would think a cure had been found...I haven't heard much about BRIM lately...
in reply to Fairwind
BIRM not BRIM. At least get that right.
cesanon in reply to
I think we all understood what he was referring to. Don't you think?
in reply to cesanon
If he is so keen on dismissing this substance, maybe he could spell it right. Don't you think? I'm just responding in kind to unwarranted and uninformed criticism.
cesanon in reply to
It was uninformed. He was asking for information.
It the dubiousness embedded in the question was not entirely unwarranted.
After all it is a folk remedy, supported by petri dish research published by only 2 non-physicians, who are promoting it as a cure for both AIDS and prostate cancer.
My recollection is no one else is researching this. There is nothing in any major or minor research journal by anyone else.
And if someone wanted to do such research, where exactly could they get pure consistent formulations of BIRM to conduct such studies.
To do real medical research you have to know EXACTLY what is in the formulation. No just what some Argentinian Guachos whipped up from last week's gathering of this season's growth.
Without a well assayed formulation of consistent content and potency, no self respecting medical center would even approve of such research on live patients. Certainly not in the US or Europe.
So I submit your personal hostility towards those who might question your belief in the efficacy of an Argentinian folk remedy that purports to cure or treat cancer and AIDs, is out of place.
No one here is stopping you from taking it, are they?
Anyone reading those papers, published in the most highly regarded peer reviewed medical journals will be most impressed by the results of the well designed human clinical trials.
I just gotta buy some stock in that company.
In my opinion, BIRM has a more solid footing than many potential cancer inhibitors/killers, but wide-ranging research that would conclude a decisive (and medically "accepted") dose-response curve for BIRM or a BIRM derivative is lacking. Until all of the variables are figured out, there is simply no way to tell. Nalakrats is right.
"BIRM has a more solid footing than many potential cancer inhibitors/killers,"
What exactly would that footing be composed of?
What would be included in the class of "any potential cancer inhibitors/killers,"
That's a legitimate question, Cesanon, and can only answer for myself. I am an engineer first, scientist second by both education and experience. Engineering is significantly more forgiving than science, because all fields of engineering routinely use different factors to guard against what cannot be truly quantified or foreseen in real world conditions. I perceive that medicine is more akin to engineering than science in many regards - it's evidence-based knowledge supplemented by scientific understanding.
"Footing" to me means first having a type of (scientific-method based) study with regard to a substance or treatment (in biology, this means in vivo or in vitro, although there have been some decent modeling attempts in some areas of biology and medicine that approach what I call "study"). The study's methods and results need to be transparent and include references to related studies or reviews, including those that may contradict the results of the study in question. And the study should indicate some understanding of the biochemical mechanism of the substance or treatment.
As to class of "any potential cancer inhibitors/killers", the sky's the limit. For example, recall that some of the original chemotherapies used what they called "nitrogen mustards" - this stuff was derived from mustard gas because of its demonstrable cytotoxicity! In contrast to this shotgun approach, medicine developed folate inhibitors when there was a noticed correlation between folks getting folic acid and B12 supplements and higher instances of cancer (BTW, there are strong advocates of a "folate-based" cancer model, while other medical researchers seem to be more moderate on the topic).
There are flaws, preconceptions, omissions, over-reaches, and over-simplifications for all treatments. I am on Zytiga (abiraterone). This is prescribed based on vetted study - 1000 mg/day on an empty stomach. It took me about 15 minutes of research on the drug's biochemical category to find that abiraterone's metabolism and uptake was facilitated by taking it with food. I posted here, and I got a landslide of modified abiraterone dosing regimens men pursued with their doctors. It was all results-oriented (evidence-based), i.e., a drop in PSA.... the true effective dose of abiraterone is only set on an individual basis, but I take my 1000 mg/day anyway.
So take your pick - alkylating agents, antioxidants, antibiotics, antimetabolites, enzyme inhibitors of all types, immunotherapy... the list of potential cancer inhibitors/killers is almost unending, but the question remains: WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND YOUR SPECIFIC CANCER? What is the true effective dose of any one of these for us as individuals, not as a population?
I don't know, but we need to keep an open mind to drive treatment options. We come back to the concept of evidence-based knowledge supplemented by scientific understanding. Formally vetted medicine does not have all the answers, just like formally vetted engineering does not have the answers. But both have the benefit that, as time goes on and the treatment (or process) is used more and more, the data gets better.
Do "crowd-sourced" studies have any merit? Nah - too many variables. Long term vetted studies are expensive and big pharma will not support anything that does not lead to a return on investment. Where does that leave substances like BIRM and mebendazole (dog pinworm stuff)? Only time will tell.
Cheers - Joe M.
Wow. My complements on your clear and thorough answer.
And yes, complex biological systems often follow their own logic, which they do not easily give. Things that should work often don't. And some that shouldn't work, do.
That's why the need for clinical trials
The failure rate for approval of potential antibiotics is about 60 percent.
The failure rate for approval of potential cancer treatments is about 97 percent. That means only 3 percent ever make it to market compared to 30 percent for antibiotics.
Lots of reasons for failure, side effects etc.
Still, petri dish testing is much more useful for antibiotics than for cancer treatments.
And, you, my friend, are always clear and thorough. So, thanks.
!! - The disparity in the two is truly remarkable, whatever the underlying reasons.
I consider this forum populated with reluctant experts.... just think if we could have some official (funded!) think tank on APCa, our members divided out into sub-committees and our group literally directing research.....
I don't know if it would have an impact, but it certainly would make all our time spent researching our affliction seem more worthwhile!! 
I don't rank anywhere near my superiors in this forum.
But if you could devise something with even a plausible revenue model, I could probably get it funded.
When it happens, can I head the Humor sub-committee? (Gratis) All we need is a rubber chicken, a rubber room and Goose down pillows.
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Friday 05/31/2019 5:54 PM DST
Dunno, j-o-h-n, seems a bit too traditional and tired....can you upsell it a bit....you know put in a bit of pizzazz and maybe some lasers...?
Got a rubber chicken. Been to the rubber room quite often. But what are the Goose down pillows for?
To get FDA approval of a Dual compound drug, requires not just testing of each compound, but each possible dosage combination of the two.
As you go from 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 compunds, the cost asymptotically increases.
How many active ingredients would you estimate birm has?
How much variation do you believe it has from batch to batch?
USA patent? On what exactly. Do you have a patent number or a link to the patent. Do you think it might list the active ingredients?
You can't look up something that doesn't exist.
No patent number = it doesn't exist.
Claiming a non-existent patent is even easier than claiming a non-existent cure for cancer.
Birm is composed of natural substances. It is unclear to me how you get a patent on a natural substance.
They don't call it snake oil for nothing. LOL
There is a patent which you can download from Google Patents US7250180B2. Cheers, Phil
Interesting. It cures AIDS as well.
Looks like it has a lot of ingredients, pretty vaguely described.
Check out Kalanchoe gastonis- genus species source for BIRM
and check out Aloe Arborescens(cheapest source is Life Extension)
My husband has been taking the concentrated BIRM for about five months along with many other supplements (IP-6 and modified citrus pectin plus others) and monthly shots of Firmagon. His PSA is considered undetectable (<0.01) and has been for several months (PSA on date of first shot was 24 three months after RP).
His most recent CT scan and bone scan are completely clean. He never had any metastases identified, but his high PSA indicate(d)(s) a high likelihood it is somewhere else. Nevertheless, he is not classified as metastatic because no metastases have been identified.
We believe the BIRM has helped mitigate side effects of ADT, but of course we can't prove that. He does not suffer with fatigue. He has minimal hot flashes. Minimal weight gain (dietary adjustments have certainly helped that). I believe the other supplements have helped too.
We of course recognize the drop in PSA is due to the Firmagon. I know he has not gotten any negative side effects from BIRM (twice a day) and he will continue to take it.
" Dr. Cevallos the inventor, and Patent holder can find time to call you, or e-mail you. He has treated many hundreds of Pca patients, and has much advice-"
My recollection from when I foolishly wasted my time researching it at your behest, was this was two PhDs promoting a local folk remedy with a petri dish study in an unimpressive journal. It was not even clear to me at the time if it was peer reviewed and if so who were the peers
So if you have a PhD now treating cancer and perhaps AIDS patients with an Argentinian folk remedy, I am even less impressed.
I will wait until he publishes the results from all the patients he is now currently treating in a peer reviewed medical journal. If he doesn't or can't, there may be good reason why.
Until such time I will put it into the same category as Laetril and anti-vaxers - not yet evidence based.
Why would you not do the same? Why?
We don’t consider it a waste of money.
My husband starting taking it in Dec and receives a significant energy boost. So aside from what it may or may not be doing to the cancer, it makes him feel better.
I'm with Hopefulspouse (Emily)....it makes me feel good. (period)
that is basically worth the cost.
but BONUS...I was very close to cutting my Xtandi from full dose to half...the doctor had already agreed to it...and then I started BIRM. My horrible side effects and fatigue almost disappeared completely (and literally overnight)...and now I am still on full dose Xtandi...6 1/2 months later! Just another example of non-scientific results...but results I live with every day!
There haven't seem to have been any down sides to it. I go to Sylvester Cancer (at University Of Miami) that have studied BIRM...and I think are currently) and my oncologist was more interested in me being on BIRM than any other supplement I have mentioned.
gJohn
p.s. I have often said...once you "change the future"...you can't see it. I'm convinced it changed my "future". (the future of Nov 2018 and after)
I didn't realize that it is being studied where you are being treated. Very cool. My husband's MO, after reading some of the initial research that we presented to him, agreed that it was worth a shot. We are fortunate that he reads what we give him - I guess he figures he would rather know what we're doing than not.
usa@birmproducts.com
I chat with Fernanda Cevallos at this website and she connected me with the Doctor who asked for my "stats" and gave his opinion of how much I should take. This is the Concentrated 7X that is not available online at Ebay or Google. It comes directly from them. Check out their website..and make sure you read first all the literature you can find...I do not want to encourage anyone to do anything...I just want to reveal what I have found has help me ...so people can research and see if they think it's right for them.
gJohn
What you mean Bill?
I have never peddled snake oil cures for cancer to people desperately seeking a cure.
Here is I think what may be your problem:
curiosity.com/topics/your-b...
And lucidity like people such as this specimen of the human race with non-functional brains who vote for politicians who create healthcare systems designed to punish them:
electrek.co/2019/06/01/tesl...
Quackery is not a victimless crime. It actually kills.
