A T3 Addict: I am addicted to T3. I was diagnosed... - Thyroid UK

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A T3 Addict

GKeith
GKeith

I am addicted to T3. I was diagnosed hypothyroid in 1990, 30 years ago & for the first 28 years fared well enough on 88-micrograms of T4, although I still had symptoms of cold hands & feet after maybe the first few years & up until this very day. I had gotten a bad reaction while in Switzerland, while on vacation, in 2018 & got terrible headaches. I would wake up & go to the refrigerator & guzzle Orange Juice, maybe 8-10 ounces until the headache went away & I could then go back to sleep. After joining a Thyroid E-club, in Switzerland, & being told online that my .88 mcg of T4 for 28 straight years meant it was almost surely too low & should have been raised, I felt more like taking the T4 so I took it until I got back to the States.

Back in Florida, I final saw an endocrinologist, which I didn’t even knew what an endocrinologist was or did, as I had never asked for anything for 28 years & had never even heard of T3 much less taken any but I had noticed that I had a high level of T4 in the Free T4 column and a low level of T3 in the Free T3 column &, after researching it, figured the T4 wasn’t converting to T3. I told my endo this, even as I asked for some T3.

My endo then lowered my T4 to 50 mcg & gave me 10 mcg’s of T3. I got heart palpitations but they went away & his adding more T3 as I got the T4 raised, had been all good for almost 2 years and when he raised the T4 three months ago to 100 mcg and lowered the T3 10 mcg’s to 20 mcg’s of T3, I fared exceptionally well up until 2 months ago, when a dentist pulled 2 of my teeth (and left me with a mouthful of bone-spurs for me to pick out with a pair of tweezers) and I told my GP to lower my dose back to 75 mcg T4 (which raised the T3 back up 10 mcg’s to 30mcg’s of T3 and he did lower it back to 75, because of the sudden headaches I told him about.)

I then soon realized that it was just as bad as the 100 because the headaches never stopped and it became obvious to me, that the dentist, who had pulled my two bottom front-teeth and appeared to do a terrible job, which she had, might have caused the headaches. These headaches are very strange as I take my temperatures when they hit and the temp.’s are almost always normal (usually between 97.5-98.3 F.)

I had always wished to go back on T4, because it was just one pill & now realize because it was never raised this (also) could have been the reason why it hadn’t converted as the doctors I’d had went only by the TSH, in order to raise it and it had always been “in range.” My “addiction” to T3, which I take every 8 hours & am now being tempted to take every 6 hours, as the urge is becoming unbearable because the headaches start up every 5 or 6 hours until I take either 10 micrograms or 7.5 micrograms of T3 and even then takes up to 30 minutes or longer to go away.

Has anyone ever had any similar stories. My teeth did bleed an awful lot, I’ll say that, and that, along with the shoddy dental work, really pisses me off & I am seeing a different dentist at this same dental office however, tomorrow, 8/18, for a root canal & then, the next day 8/19 yet a different dentist for a crown, & then the next day, 8/20, I have to go for a Thyroid blood-test?

233 Replies
oldestnewest

Has anyone ever had any similar stories

Short answer... no. But for what it’s worth, you aren’t addicted to T3. You keep messing with your thyroid hormone doses and right now, it’s going to be next to impossible for anyone to figure out where you are (including yourself). Pick a dosage and stick to it. There’s no point at all in having a blood test this week because it won’t give you any usable results. So there’s one trip you can cancel. :)

I think you’ve put 2 and 2 together and come up with about 13.... :). If you were stable on a dosage of 100mcg Levo and 20mcg liothyronine (T3) then having a tooth out won’t have made any difference and that isn’t what’s caused your headaches. As someone who’s recently had a tooth out after failed root canal, let me say that the headache is probably due to the tooth coming out and inflammatory processes due to that, not T3.

I think I’d recommend that you go back on 100mcg of levothyroxine and 20mcg of T3 and stay on that dosage for at least 6 weeks before thinking about retesting.

T3 is not a painkiller. It’s not doing what you think it’s doing, even if it seems to be having that effect. Are you taking painkillers? If so, what and how often?

Jazzw
Jazzw in reply to Jazzw

Oh, and just to add (cos I was intrigued enough to just read through your most recent posts!) I think you might have some form of neuralgia at the moment—something’s upset the nerves to that tooth you’ve now had pulled. Perhaps trigeminal neuralgia or similar?

And there was me saying I didn’t have experience of that—I did, after having a routine and supposedly straightforward filling last year. It took a long time to get better (and multiple trips to the doctors and different prescriptions) but in the end it did. The thing that helped mine in the end was a low dose of a naproxen twice daily.

jgelliss
jgelliss in reply to Jazzw

So well said . The body needs time to acclimate to thyroid meds changes.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Jazzw

Totally agree with everything you say. Was going to say very much the same myself - but now I needn't bother, you said it so well! :)

Batty1
Batty1 in reply to greygoose

Bone spurs in mouth? I never knew this was possible. Huh.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Batty1

Oh, yes. During the extraction, little bits get broken off and later on poke through the gum. But, I thought it was bits of tooth, rather than bone. It would feel the same.

humanbean
humanbean in reply to greygoose

I'm sure it is bits of tooth too. I had bits of tooth working their way out of my gums after I had my impacted wisdom teeth removed under GA. It took several months for all the bits to make their way out.

When I saw a dentist soon after the surgery he made the comment that removing impacted wisdom teeth, is "a knee on the chest job with a hammer and chisel".

Under those circumstances it isn't surprising that bits of tooth get broken off.

Batty1
Batty1 in reply to greygoose

Oh wow this is first I ever heard of such a thing.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Batty1

Oh, it's happened to me a couple of times. :)

Batty1
Batty1 in reply to greygoose

What causes this to happen, is it thyroid related or bad dentists or both?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Batty1

I've really no idea. I don't know if it has anything to do with thyroid - maybe, as the teeth are more fragile - but I don't think it indicates a bad dentist. I have had many, many different dentists over the years, good, bad and indifferent, and it can happen with any of them. My present dentist is pretty good as dentists go, I'm happy with him, but it did happen the last time he took one of my teeth out.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Jazzw

I'm taking no painkillers, and what I am trying to say, in a nutshell., is that the doctors totally ignored me as a human being and as their patient by never, not even once, from the very first day, in 1990, until (let's say) the last day, (will now be) today, treated me, their patient, they treated me, the disease. By ignoring my symptoms as medical doctors, or endos, they not only ignored their Hippocratic Oath, they ignored the Human Being oath & it makes me (now) so mad that, if it were up to me, I would take away their licenses & God only knows what else.

The thing is this: I took T4 for 28 years & the doctors I saw, GP's or endos, IGNORED me, my symptoms and their (so-called) education (where you are supposed to gain knowledge which then allows you to make money but, supposedly, also instills a code of serving your patients and actually even save their lives (which in hypothyroid, hyper, diabetes, & most other thyroid diseases is a strong possibility) but instead, ruin them. And, I never said T3 is a pain-killer, I said, (I meant) it is an energy pill & becomes very desirable, especially as one ages.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

You have a very idealistic idea of medicine. Unfortunately, it's not like that at all - perhaps it never has been. I don't think they even swear the hypocratic oath, these days. Their education in thyroid is minimal, to say the least. They know nothing about symptoms, only have a vague idea what T3 is and totally ignore antibodies because they don't know what they are. All they know these days is to look at blood test results on a computer screen and prescribe drugs. They are technicians rather than doctors. And, they have been taught that hypothyroidism is no big deal. And that those that complain about symptoms after the numbers say they're fine, are either attention seekers, or mad. Take your pick. And, this is a world-wide problem - even worse in some countries than in the USA. So, the treatment you got is nothing personal, that's just the way it is.

T3 is not an energy pill, either. I take 75 mcg T3 only every day, and my one desire at this moment, at 3 pm, is to crawl back into to bed and sleep for the next 24 hours! I really, really will it were an energy pill, but in fact, it's only just keeping me alive. And, the only reason it becomes more desirable with age, is that your conversion gets worse and you need more to live. Absolutely nothing to do with addiction. Do not confuse T3 with cocaine - although for most people, cocaine is easier to obtain! Think yourself lucky that you got it prescribed with no hassle. :)

guysgrams
guysgrams in reply to greygoose

It's funny Greygoose. I had an Endo that actually told me I was addicted to T3 because I wouldn't succumb to her way of thinking :) Needless to say we parted ways.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to guysgrams

I should think so too! Silly woman.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

Man, greygoose, if that was T4 it'd be about 300 mcg T4. That is some potent stuff. I cannot understand this. You say your conversion gets worse as you age? Why do you think that is for some & not for others? If you're taking that much it must also cost you a pretty penny.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

Yes, but you can't think about it that way. I never took quite that much T4, I think I got up to 200 maximum. But it didn't help at all. I have a certain degree of resistance to thyroid hormone, which means that I need a lot of T3 to flood the receptors in order to get enough T3 into the cells to help me function. I would never survive on 5 mcg or 10.

As I say, we're all different, with different needs. I now know what I need - although it took me a long time to find it - you have to find what you need.

You say your conversion gets worse as you age? Why do you think that is for some & not for others?

I think that's true for everyone, more or less. It's a fact of life.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

True. There are no absolutes in this world.

No!

T3 is a replacement hormone not a drug per se

Your body must be well and truly confused after so many hormone changes

If you did well on 100mcgs T4 plus 20 mcgs T3 then return to that protocol and test after 6 weeks.

Have you had the following tested, they need to be optimal to support conversion and for good thyroid health

Vit D

Vit B12

Folate

Ferritin

You need to sort out your painkillers....too many can cause headaches

What are you taking....and how much

T3 is NOT a painkiller...it is a very potent hormone which must be treated with care and respect. It sounds as if you are treating it like a cheap headache pill which it clearly is not.

Dental work is most likely causing the pain....extraction, root canal and crown work sounds challenging

Too soon to test...do that after you've been on a steady dose for 6 to 8 weeks.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to DippyDame

Whoever said I said T3 is a painkiller? It's an energy pill with a very fast jolt when you first take it & you will even get to the point of feeling a need for it every 6 hours or maybe every 4. And it's this, a feeling you do not get with T4, even 28 years of T4, that you begin to crave. I'm not saying it is necessarily bad or that T4 is necessarily bad. I'm saying I would much rather take 1 pill instead of so many and/or so many times. I would even much rather take vitamin pills & eat certain foods but was made to believe, by the doctors, that I had to do what they ordered! And they were, far too many times, just plain wrong.

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to GKeith

Dr John Lowe - an expert in the use of T3, stated that one daily dose should be taken. That it goes directly into the T3 receptor cells and then sends out 'waves' and the "effect" of that one dose lasts between one to three days. I have experimented myself and it did last three days for me taking one dose which I continue to take.

drlowe.com/thyroidscience/c...

GKeith
GKeith in reply to shaws

I would like to try that but am a little leery because I'm used to taking it like this: 100 mcg's T4 with 71/2 mcg T3 then just the T3 the next 2 hours. every 8 hours.

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to GKeith

You state:-

"but am a little leery " but I doubt you are an expert and are trying your best but are very, very wrong in your use of T3.

There are always 'tales' and 'misconceptions' of T3 and many are wrong or assumptions.

I am surprised that you are not damaging your health with such a colossal dose of T3 daily (approx 400mcg (plus levo)).

25mcg T3 is equal to approx 100mcg of levo - whilst mine (and am well) is 25mcg T3 daily. The purpose of one dose of T3 is that it saturates all of the T3 receptor cells and it sends out 'waves'

I couldn't be bothered for my life to be dictated to by taking thyroid hormones frequently throughout the day. Stomach has always to be empty in order not to interfere with the uptake of thyroid hormones. should enter the T3 receptor cells (T4 has none) and then it work begins and one daily dose last for approx 3 days. It would be practically impossible to take at the same time daily.

The fact that one daily dose works perfectly for me on advice from Dr Lowe.

Dr John Lowe took 150mcg T3 himself in the middle of the night so that nothing interfered with the uptake and stated that one daily dose of T3 saturates all of our T3 receptor cells and from then on over the next couple of days it 'sent out waves' throughout the day. and one dose could last three days. I've done a trial myself and did find that my one dose lasted three days i.e. I took one dose - took none for the next two days - and then began one daily dose again. Dr Lowe stated he had 'thyroid hormone resistance' and that those who had this could only recover on T3 and that their doses could be higher than normal.(his dose - 150mcg T3 once daily).

I am not medically qualified but 25mcg of T3 is equal "in its effect" to 100mcg of levothyroxine, so you are taking 100mcg of T4 plus approx 70mcg of T3 .

I used to take a higher dose of T3 but find, now, that 25mcg is sufficient for my daily needs. i.e. that would be equal to approx 100mcg of levo.

This is an excerpt from the following link that is by Dr Holtfort:-

"Moreover, researchers are now increasingly discovering T3’s complex role in immune responses (e.g. Jara et al. 2017).

It is important to know that while some of the body’s T3 is produced by the thyroid gland, 80% of circulating T3 is the product of “peripheral” (i.e. localized) conversion of the “less active” T4 hormone (which is produced by the thyroid gland) into T3 by deiodinase enzymes in the cells themselves (especially in the kidney and liver) .................

Finally, in order to understand T3 treatment, it is important to realize that thyroid hormones don’t just diffuse into cells but must be actively transported into them, and that the transport of T4 requires much more energy than the transport of T3 (Holtorf, 2014b).

In sum, T3 affects almost every physiological process in the body, and its function depends on the successful conversion of T4 into T3 by enzymes, the transport of thyroid hormones into cells, and the uptake of the hormone by nuclear membrane receptors.

healthrising.org/blog/2019/...

Dr Lowe had 'Thyroid Hormone Resistance' and his once a day dose - taken in the middle of the night ' was 150mcg of T3. This enabled him to research and study and advise how best to recover our health.

On your present dose are taking approx more than 450mcg of T3 daily plus levothyroxine.

Duckydoodle
Duckydoodle in reply to shaws

Jumping in on this as I’m curious - is this the best way to take T3? Once every 3 days, or a smaller dose daily to mimic circadian rhythm? Thx

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to Duckydoodle

There is very little variation in Free T3 through the day in someone with a healthy thyroid.

It would be a very bad idea to take T3 every three days - or every other day.

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to Duckydoodle

No - the 'three' days' was my experiment.

I take one daily dose as recommended by Dr John Lowe as T3 has to saturate all of the T3 receptor cells and that one dose sends out 'waves' for up to three days. He took his T3 in the middle of the night so that nothing interfered with its uptake.

Dr Lowe was a researcher and doctor and expert on the use of T3. His normal prescribing was for NDT (natural dessicated thyroid hormones) and he only prescribed T3 for those patients who were 'resistant' to thyroid hormones'

GKeith
GKeith in reply to shaws

I take mine at night also but take T3 three times a day in equal portion, including the one with the T4. I am actually afraid (now) to take it all in once because of my "routine" dosing. I would probably also be too shy to take NDT, being as I never have.

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to GKeith

Do what you think is best but it is difficult to take it at exactly the same time each day. T3, when it saturates our T3 receptor cells sends out 'waves' throughout the period. I must prefer a once-a-day as it gives me freedom.

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to GKeith

You wouldn’t say a diabetic is an addict for needing insulin....or think it odd to need 2 or 3 insulin injections per day

Why would it be odd (or difficult) to take a tiny dose of T3 2 or 3 times a day.

A normal working thyroid produces Ft4 and 10-20% of Ft3.

Nearly all patients on just levothyroxine have unnaturally high Ft4 and lower than normal Ft3.

Levothyroxine has to be converted from Ft4 to Ft3, primarily in the liver. This process is complex

There are slow release versions of T3, but don’t seem to work well or be readily available

endomad
endomad in reply to GKeith

I wish i got an energy jolt, after keeping an in depth journal of meds, food, mood, supplements etc spurred on by Paul Robinsons CT3M of logging everything. I realised it takes 9 hours to wake me up! I now take 75mcg t3 at bedtime, i sleep better now and i am able to wake up in the morning. When i took my t3 in the morning or split doses i could sleep 18 hours all day. My endo cant believe i go to sleep on that amount of t3, i have to get straight out of bed when i wake, if i laze around i go back to sleep and feel groggy all day. I take 10mg hydrocortisone first thing as i have low cortisol. I have never had that awake feeling with t3, never had palps, racing heart, elevated heart rate or temps. A strong dbl expresso can give me a bit of a kick but since my thyroid was removed i have turned into a sloth!

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to endomad

I wake up more easily if I have T3 before bedtime.

Energy jolts? I have low cortisol and I wouldn’t get an energy jolt if I had a stick of dynamite up my rear end 😫

CarolineAnne
CarolineAnne in reply to GKeith

I understand what you mean about the initial jolt when taking t3. Years back I experienced that upon taking t3 at first. However, if you stick to a consistent dose that wears off. I take my daily 60 mcg t3 and I don’t feel a thing now. I do split the dose and take it three times over a day with my last dose at night before I sleep.

I also remember when first taking Levothyroxine, I cleaned the whole house in a day after being bedbound. I think the point is to stick to a consistent dose, raise due to symptoms/vitals/blood tests until your health improves. Unfortunately, yes the initial lift does wear off and you feel tired again but it is not a race but a steady, measured titration that takes time and will be working at a cellular level. You will get the benefit of the raise and then that will level off and you will feel tired/lack of energy until the next raise etc. When you reach the optimal dose it can still take 6 months or so to feel really well as your body is healing. All the co factors mentioned by others here, Vit b12, iron, vit D have to be brought up to optimal too. You will get there if you stick to a consistent dose and follow the good expert patient advice found here. Best wishes :)

GKeith
GKeith in reply to CarolineAnne

How long did it take you to get to so high (60 mcg) a dose of Lio? Are you T4 intolerant?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

It's an energy pill

No it's not. It is a hormone that would normally be made by your thyroid, if you were a healthy person. But, you are hypo, so you need to take T3 exogenously. You cannot live without it.

T4 is the storage hormone - and there's no proof that it does anything else - so of course it doesn't act the same way as T3. One wouldn't expect it to. It just sits there until it's converted into T3.

I'm saying I would much rather take 1 pill instead of so many and/or so many times.

Well, don't you think we all would? Do you actually think that any of us like taking pills? I can't imagine where you might have got that idea from.

I would even much rather take vitamin pills & eat certain foods but was made to believe, by the doctors, that I had to do what they ordered! And they were, far too many times, just plain wrong.

So would the rest of us! If such a thing were possible. But, it isn't. You can only replace a hormone with a hormone, not with an orange or a pork chop! If you are hypo, then your doctors were right. You do need to take some sort of thyroid hormone replacement every day to stay alive.

As to whether your doctors were wrong or right about you being hypo, we cannot say without seeing your earliest blood test results. If you care to post those, then you'll get a considered opinion. Can't say fairer than that! :D

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

You mean you can't live without a certain amount of T3, right? Because how can you measure (find out) how much you should take if you don't have a thyroid? Everybody is different so, basically, everyone will have a different dose, as those of us with thyroids also must figure out. I don't believe I have thyroid tests for 30 years ago or even more 2 or 3? Maybe 6-9 months on T4 alone, always the same dose, .88 mcg? I see quite a lot ofd literature & people, some naturalistic & holistic doctors who claim the take no thyroid hormone, even though they have hypo or hyper & one who has Hashimotos & recovered on food & vitamin pills. Quite attractive. Of course, he asks for money if you wish to join him in, after first (first 5 lessons) offering free seminars. Anybody ever try any?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

Because how can you measure (find out) how much you should take if you don't have a thyroid?

By the way you feel. That is why you start on a low dose and increase slowly, until you feel well and your symptoms have gone. You don't need to know in advance how much you'll need in the future. And, doctors that try to predict that are just showing that they don't understand how all this works. Because there are so many variables that can affect how much you eventually need.

I don't believe I have thyroid tests for 30 years ago or even more 2 or 3?

You mean before you became hypo? Well, that doesn't matter because you will need more now than you did them, because hypos need higher levels of FT4 and FT3 to feel well, than euthyroid people.

I see quite a lot ofd literature & people, some naturalistic & holistic doctors who claim the take no thyroid hormone, even though they have hypo or hyper & one who has Hashimotos & recovered on food & vitamin pills.

Don't believe a word of it! There are a lot of cranks and trolls out there.

Actually, I've never read about any doctors that claim not to take thyroid hormone replacement even though they're hypo. But, then, I would trust a naturalistic or holistic doctor further than I could throw them. I've read too often how they mess people up with their crazy ideas.

On the other hand, I have read a lot of people and doctors who claim to have 'cured' Hashi's one way or another. One of my doctors became my ex doctor when he claimed to have cured his own Hashi's, and that of a lot of his patients, with iodine! They don't seem to realise that Hashi's can have periods of remission, just like Grave's. And that is when they claim to be cured. But, they don't shout about it when they find they have to eventually go back on their thyroid hormone, they tend to keep that bit quiet.

I'd save my money, if I were you.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to GKeith

Pardon?

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator

Extremely typical to manage for years/decades on just levothyroxine...as we get older it’s very very common for conversion to get worse and FT3 dropping lower and lower ....until it becomes necessary to add small dose of T3 alongside levothyroxine

You well see hundreds of members on here on roughly 100mcg plus 20mcg T3

There is no point doing thyroid tests until been on stable and unchanging dose of levothyroxine and T3 for minimum of 6-8 weeks

Suggest you get vitamin D, folate, ferritin and B12 tested now. Extremely common for some or all four of these vitamins to be too low.

Improving low vitamin levels can help improve conversion of Ft4 to Ft3

For full Thyroid evaluation you need TSH, FT4 and FT3 plus both TPO and TG thyroid antibodies tested. Also EXTREMELY important to test vitamin D, folate, ferritin and B12

Low vitamin levels are extremely common, especially if you have autoimmune thyroid disease (Hashimoto's) diagnosed by raised Thyroid antibodies

Do you have Hashimoto’s?

Getting vitamins tested essential

Recommended on here that all thyroid blood tests should ideally be done as early as possible in morning and before eating or drinking anything other than water .

Last dose of Levothyroxine 24 hours prior to blood test. (taking delayed dose immediately after blood draw).

This gives highest TSH, lowest FT4 and most consistent results. (Patient to patient tip, best not mentioned to GP or phlebotomist)

If/when also on T3 make sure to take last half or third of daily dose 8-12 hours prior to test, even if this means adjusting time or splitting of dose day before test

Is this how you do your tests?

Come back with new post once you get results after you have given levels chance to settle

I would just add that your endo doesn't seem to know much more about it than you do. I'm sure you could find a better one that doesn't believe you can up and down T4 and T3 as if they were the two ends of a see-saw. You can't. They are not interchangable. You reduce the levo before introducing the T3, if it needs reducing - that is to say if the FT4 was very high, and then concentrate on increasing the T3 until you feel well. After that, the levo might need increasing or it might not, but increasing the levo does not automatically mean you have to reduce the T3. Conversion will still be just as bad as it was before you started T3. Taking T3 does not improve conversion. All he's done is totally confuse your poor body. And, now the dentist and all that entailed, you must be in a terrible state! Get your B12 tested, that could have dropped. :)

Gerispice
Gerispice in reply to greygoose

A question here please, Greygoose. You say taking T3 does not improve conversion. Yet it appears to have very much improved my conversion. This is evident in the FT4 levels after adding T3 (15-18 on a reference range of 11-23) compared to the FT4 levels before starting T3 (24-26) on the same dose of Levothyroxine. What makes you say it doesn’t improve conversion?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Gerispice

So, you think that because your levels of FT4 have reduced, that proves improvement in conversion? If that were the case, your FT3 levels would be through the roof!

When you start taking T3, FT4 levels fall. That is a universal truth. But, no-one knows why. There was a long thread about it a while ago, involving the most knowledgeable ones: diogenes, helvella, jimh111, and no-one knew why it happens, But, everyone was adament that it is not because conversion is improved. How would that even work? Conversion is achieved through various deiodinases, but they don't depend on the level of your FT3. If they did, no-one would be a poor converter.

On the other hand, converis ion does depend on TSH, and once you start taking T3, the TSH will become suppressed. So, logically, conversion would get worse, not better.

Gerispice
Gerispice in reply to greygoose

Surely, the reduction in free T4 would indicate higher conversion? That wouldn’t necessarily promote a higher free T3 reading because cell uptake and the resulting systemic improvement in function would suggest the additional free T3 is being utilised. By which exact deiodinase and exactly how, I don’t know. I’m not challenging what people have written on here, I’m just discussing it. It seems obvious to me why the free T4 is reduced when you add T3 for a poor converter.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Gerispice

Magical thinking, I'm afraid. Not only are you suggesting that adding T3 to levo increases conversion of T4 to T3, but also that it increases uptake of thyroid hormone by the cells. That's sort of like having your cake and eating it too! And, whilst it might seem obvious to you, it doesn't to the scientific minds on here. And, if that were true, it would be the end of all our problems! No more conversion problems, no more absorption problems, just add a bit of T3. I think, if that were true, it would have been discovered a long, long time ago.

More logical is that the body only hangs on to the T4 it needs and excretes the rest, and as you're taking T3, it needs less T4. But the fact is: we just don't know.

Gerispice
Gerispice in reply to greygoose

I'm sure you know a lot about this subject but there's no need to be offensive, Grey Goose. I am a degree educated, practicing health professional and don't believe in magic.

Before I was given T3 I was taking 125mcg levothyroxine alone or 3 years with zero improvement in my condition and had to idly watch my life fall apart in front of my eyes while I got sicker and sicker, to the point of contemplating suicide. My quality of life was so poor I could not live any more. Then a patient of mine told me she knew what was wrong with me and could recommend someone who could "fix" me. That fix came in the form of 20mcg of T3 daily, and after 3 years of painful and debilitating illness it took just 2 days to start to feel better. Twenty micrograms is a very small amount of T3, not enough to promote mass excretion of the T4 I was taking, as you suggest, yet my free T4 levels reduced and have remained constant for the last 7 years. Nothing else has changed. I'm still taking the same 125mcg T4. Somehow, the T3 is assisting my conversion rate. Now whether that is by allowing my cells to function properly and therefore produce the correct proteins for production of deiodinases, or whether it's by some other means, this is definitely the case. As you say, you don't know. So why dismiss my comment in favour of "we just don't know"?

Any part of the complex process that ends in T3's contribution to DNA synthesis within the cell nucleus could actually be influenced by the presence of T3 in a person who is fundamentally unable to either produce their own T3 or derive it from synthetic T4 (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2... and ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... under subheading Thyroid Hormone Action).

Remember, it is only the FREE T4 that is used for conversion to T3, and that Free T4 is only a minute fraction of the (temporarily inactive) Total T4 in the body that is bound to plasma proteins in the blood for the very purpose of preventing its excretion in the urine (karger.com/Article/Pdf/98021). Your suggestion that the additional T4 is merely excreted after such measures to prevent that from happening wouldn't make any sense.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Gerispice

No further comment.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to greygoose

But I will just say this: Total T4 is the name of the blood test. It includes both Free and bound T4. Total T4 is not another name for bound T4. And, it's not the bound T4 that would be excreted, it would be the Free T4, so that rather destroys your trashing of the excretion theory. I think you got a bit muddled there.

KT77
KT77 in reply to greygoose

I have read that the reason for lower t4 when t3 is taken is that the body is trying to prevent going hyper. Makes a bit of sense but im not sure.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to KT77

Yes, it does make sense. And that ties in with what I said about we'd know if it did improve conversion because the FT3 would be sky-high. And, it usually isn't.

But, the question, I suppose, is: what happens to that T4? Is it excreted as I suggested, or is there some other way of getting rid of it? I don't think it gets converted to rT3. I think we'd know if that happened. :)

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to greygoose

theory about where T4 goes~. How about~ when you take T3 with T4, more T4 is made 'bound' and less is made 'free' ~ so since we only measure free, it looks lower , but it's all still there going round 'bound' ?

I've never thought before , but when we swallow T4 (in someone with no thyroid) what is the mechanism that means some gets bound and some is free ?

do we know ?

I know it's past my bedtime and i should know better than to theorise after a glass of port. :)

greygoose
greygoose in reply to tattybogle

Well, I don't know. lol Not something I've ever thought about, either. But, that could be the explanation. I wonder if we'll ever find out. :)

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to tattybogle

Any port in a storm 😉

KT77
KT77 in reply to greygoose

I know the body does it for a reason but its so inconvenient. Adding a bit of t3 lowers my t4 so there is less to convert from. It also lowers my tsh so again less conversion. And yet I feel a lot better adding half of grain of ndt to my levo. Levo only is not so good for me. I dread results of my blood test. It's like I failed an exam☺

greygoose
greygoose in reply to KT77

Oh, you're not the only one to feel like that! Doctors tend to make you feel like that, as if it's all your fault! :)

Perhaps, if you're taking half a grain of NDT, you don't actually need that much T4. But, whatever you take, it's a balancing act. It's never as simple as doctors like to make out - 'just take this little pill every day and no more problems'! I wish!

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to greygoose

Late to the party again 🤪. If this hypothesis is correct Gg, why do I have FT4 almost at top of range on NDT?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Scrumbler

No idea. lol Your body just doesn't do what it's supposed to do, I suppose.😂

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to greygoose

Insolent and disobedient as always :)

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Scrumbler

lol

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

I believe some scientists say it doesn't get converted but hangs around & they call it reverse T3 because it doesn't get converted. Howsoever, there are others, like Paul Robinson and also Dr. John C, Lowe. Lowe was a doctor who ended up curing himself due to his medical knowledge and ability to figure out his own body's disease and cure it. Robinson, on the other hand, was no doctor or even in the medical field, he was simply a man who had hypothyroidism. He did a lot of research on his job, an engineer, and so immediately began researching everything to do with his disease due to being all but incapacitated by hypo. Both T4 & T3 are enzymes, I believe they're called deoidnaise (probably misspelt) enzymes and one is called T4 & has 4 deoidnaise spots, imagine a 4 of clubs turning into a 3 of clubs, on it and another enzyme comes along and knocks one of the 4 enzymes off making it an enzyme with now 3 spots and there is an enzyme that prevents that conversion and if you have that enzyme you cannot convert T4 to T3, period. Apparently Robinson had it. It is supposedly very rare but if you have it you must eventually take T3,

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

I believe some scientists say it doesn't get converted but hangs around & they call it reverse T3 because it doesn't get converted.

Well, that's complete gobbledegook, anyway. How can you call T4 rT3?

T4 is so called because it contains 4 atoms of iodine.

To convert to T3, one atom of iodine is removed.

To convert to rT3, a different atom of iodine is removed, making it inert, rather than active like T3.

rT3 is a different kind of T3. It is not T4.

T4 has a half-life of 7 days in the blood, it doesn't just hang around forever.

Lowe was a doctor who ended up curing himself due to his medical knowledge and ability to figure out his own body's disease and cure it.

I know who Dr John Lowe was - he's dead. Car accident, I believe. He did not cure himself of anything. He had Hashi's and he took 150 mcg T3 a a day.

I don't know where you've been doing your reading but you've read some pretty inaccurate stuff!

Both T4 & T3 are enzymes, I believe they're called deoidnaise (probably misspelt) enzymes and one is called T4 & has 4 deoidnaise spots, imagine a 4 of clubs turning into a 3 of clubs, on it and another enzyme comes along and knocks one of the 4 enzymes off making it an enzyme with now 3 spots and there is an enzyme that prevents that conversion and if you have that enzyme you cannot convert T4 to T3, period.

Golly Gosh! Where have you been reading! T4 and T3 are hormones, not enzymes. T4 is converted to T3 by deiodinase enzymes. There are no spots!

As I explained above, T4 has 4 iodine atoms, T3 has three iodine atoms: hence the namse.

There is one deiodinase that converts T4 to T3, and another that converts it to rT3. But, it is still conversion. The rT3 then goes on to be converted to T2, the T2 to T1 and the iodine is recycled.

I'm not surprised you're confused. You've read some pretty crazy stuff!

A little OT, but in this context I find it a bit confusing that many sites, including but not limited to STTM, claim you need around midrange FT4 when on NDT or a synthetic combo. I find that almost impossible to achieve without getting through the roof FT3...but many seem to think that low FT4 levels per se are a problem, even if on T3...so the info is pretty confusing.

Yes, it is confusing when people start insisting that everyone has to have this or do that. FT4 levels, when taking T3 or NDT, are a very personel thing. There are people that need a high FT4 level, there are others - like me - who are perfectly happy with an FT4 of zero. It depends on the person, and you need to find what you need by trial and error.

If you do think you need more T4, it would be a good idea to take a little levo along with your NDT, rather than keep increasing the NDT, and getting a level of T3 that is too high for you. A lot of people do do that. :)

"On the other hand, conversion does depend on TSH, and once you start taking T3, the TSH will become suppressed. So, logically, conversion would get worse, not better."

That makes sense...when I took levo only, I needed to keep raising it to feel even remotely human. But, I ended up with a TSH of 0.05 and no symptom-relief which puzzled doctors...if the TSH is somehow involved in T4 to T3 conversion, it makes sense a suppressed TSH would lead to decreased conversion and T3 deficiency in someone on T4 mono therapy...I could never achieve top of range FT4 levels and a low-normal TSH (as recommended by Dr. Toft) on levo only, but failed to recover even on TSH-suppressive doses of levo, so what you say makes sense to me.

Thank you. :)

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

Why would I add T3? If I was an endo why would I not first focus on the T4 and raise the dose, as, like I said, not one doctor even ever did. If, then, I couldn't take T4 alone it would be different. If you say this is probably the dentistry, I agree but, also, the T4 not converting could have been also something sililar, a vitamin, something not in my diet, etc.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

I can't tell you why your endo added T3 to your levo because I haven't seen your labs. But, you can only increase your T4 just so far before it starts converting to more rT3 than T3. But, as I say, I don't know if you'd reached that point or not. We're all different and one has to see the labs to know. But, presumably, he had some idea that that was the best thing to do.

If you're a poor converter, which you presumably are, the chances of you finding out why you convert poorly are very, very slim. There could be many, many, reasons. How long were you prepared to suffer the symptoms of low T3 in the hope of finding the cause before you gave in and took the T3? Not long enough, I would imagine. So, best to add it in sooner, rather than later. That seems logical to me. You might never find the reason for your poor conversion. But what is wrong is that, having added the T3, your endo didn't know how to dose it, that's all. Nothing to do with being addicted. One does not become addicted to a hormone. That would be like becoming addicted to oxygen! It doesn't happen. :)

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

There have been professional athletes who have takInG T4 when he fought Larry Holms. He wasn't addicted to it, they gave it to him as an "extra" energy pill.Now, I know that doesn't mean he was "addicted" to it but you know that there are many hypos who mention on here and other places on Internet & personally, (wo)man to (wo)man thaty they "must" have their T3 (now) after x amount of years every 6 or 4 hours because their "body" is telling them to take it. As for methe T4 is never really "felt" but, unless a bad reaction occurrs, like I have stated above, I "have" to take the T3 earlier than 8 hours, 3 times a day. T4 never did that for me. And, I am really pissed off that when I take T3 I have no way to check if the T4 is converting because how do I know it's the T4 or the already active T3-pill? I checked my RT3 once (my endo doesn't believe in it) Gp did it. 9 was the cut-off; my was 8. All I know is that today I went for a final crown, actuall 2 crowns, after yesterday having 2 root canals & the specialist (who does nothing but crowns) said that the back crown was so full of cavities it was poisonous & I couls feel there was shred of a tooth. I asked him to show my the teeth in a mirror. Both teeth has maybe a dozen thin shards that were so thin they were almost invisible. He said the back tooth couldn't be save but the front "might be possible." I asked him if they were his teeth what he would do and he said:" "I would pull both of them right now but don't expect me to pull these." I paid them already $2,000 & owed $2,000 more in 2 more weeks when he was scheduled to put replace the temporary crowns with permanent ones. Needless to say, I am searching for another dentist. Peace be upon us all.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

I take 75 mcg T3 only, and I take it all in one go in the morning. I feel no compulsion to take it several times a day. Once is fine. And, I know through a lot of experimenting, that 75 is the right dose for me. I don't need any more. If I were addicted to it, I would be wanting more and more and more to get the same effect. In fact, to be honest, I don't get any particular effect from it. I just feel the same all the time. T4, on the other hand, made me feel very bad. It wasn't a conversion problem. I converted perfectly. I just couldn't tolerate T4, not in NDT, not in a synthetic pill.

I am really pissed off that when I take T3 I have no way to check if the T4 is converting because how do I know it's the T4 or the already active T3-pill?

No, that's true, you cannot judge your conversion once you start taking T3. But, I imagine that was decided before you started the T3. Do you have any labs from when you were on T4 only? That would tell you how well you convert. If not, then the only way to find out is to stop take the T3 for a couple of months and retest on T4 only. If stopping the T3 makes you ill, that would mean that you are a poor converter, and you do need that T3. It does not mean you're addicted.

I checked my RT3 once (my endo doesn't believe in it) Gp did it. 9 was the cut-off; my was 8

Your endo was right, there is no point in checking your rT3. It doesn't give you any useful information. Now you know your rT3 is high in-range, but what are you going to do with that information? And, if it goes over-range, what do you think you could do? The test will tell you if it's high, but it won't tell you why. And, there are many, many reasons for high rT3 that have nothing to do with thyroid. It does not, in any way, tell you anything about your conversion that you don't already know.

I'm sorry to hear about your teeth problems. I know what it's like. I only have one or two of mine left. Low thyroid hormones affects your teeth just as it affects everything else. And, I've been hypo for nearly 50 years. My teeth just crumbled, and then the roots had to be dug out. And, I react very badly to the anesthetic. I shake uncontrollably for a couple of hours after, and can hardly walk. No way I can go to the dentist by myself. I have to have a minder! :D So, I appreciate how awful it can be. But, it's nobody's fault. That's just life. Make sure you get plenty of rest to get over the trauma. :)

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

Well, I've read that most scientists make claims that reverse T3 is T4 not converting but, then, congregating together in one plave in the body and giving off headaches and other false signals.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

Well, I don't see how they work that out when we know that there are myriad causes of high rT3 that have nothing to do with thyroid or conversion or anything of that kind.

Other conditions that contribute to increased Reverse T3 levels include:

* Chronic fatigue

* Acute illness and injury

* Chronic disease

* Increased cortisol (stress)

* Low cortisol (adrenal fatigue)

* Low iron

* Lyme disease

* Chronic inflammation

* Selenium deficiency

* Excess physical, mental and environmental stresses

* Beta-blocker long-term use such as propranolol, metoprolol, etc.

* Physical injury is a common cause of increased RT3

* Viruses, such as flu

* Starvation/severe calorie restriction

* Mistreated diabetes

* Cirrhosis of the liver

* Fatty liver disease

* Renal Failure.

* Fever of unknown cause

* Detoxing high heavy metals levels

* Etc. etc. etc.

And, we know that it is inert, so can't cause symptoms like headaches.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

Some scientists have said that it's because they are inert that they cause headaches because they hang out in the wrong places & not pnly fail to convert but fail to disappear. I have no idea how thwy think or what they mean but there are many doctors, including Paul Robinson & John Lowe that believe it's real & a nuisance that can cause big problems in the future. I think it's 50/50 as far as agreeing together between scientists & doctors.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

Some scientists have said that it's because they are inert

How on earth can something that is inert cause problems. Inert means it doesn't do anything at all.

they hang out in the wrong places

'They'? Don't you mean 'it'?

It doesn't hang out, anywhere. It is only in the body for about 2 hours before it is converted into T2.

not pnly fail to convert but fail to disappear

But it already is converted from T4. And, a couple of hours later, it converts to T2, the T2 to T1, then the iodine is recycled. So, it does 'disappear' in a sense.

And, I cannot believe that any scientist - true scientist - could believe such faniful things in the face of evidence. And, I don't think you are actually thinking logically at the moment - mere logic would tell you that none of this is true - because you are too hypo and need your T3.

there are many doctors, including Paul Robinson & John Lowe that believe it's real

Of course rT3 is real. It is a natural way of recycling excess T4, a sort of safety valve.

& a nuisance that can cause big problems in the future

I don't think anyone knows that much about rT3 going into the future. But, what sort of problems do you mean?

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

“The conversion process of T4 to rT3 occurs on an on-going basis within the cells, in order to clear excess levels of T4 from the body or to lower metabolic rate and Paul Robinson believes that rT3 is the same as T3 except for the fact that it is not a biologically active hormone and if too much RT3 is produced it will have a negative effect on the metabolism and the regulation of cellular function & also says that most people convert iover 50% of their T4 to RT3 & therefore convert less than 50% to the actual metabolically active FT3 hormone. Scientists & endo's argue about this constantly & many endos, mine included, do not believe there even is such a thing as RT3 & therefore, (don't) won't check it.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

"The conversion process of T4 to rT3 occurs on an on-going basis within the cells, in order to clear excess levels of T4 from the body or to lower metabolic rate"

Yes, of course it does. We know that. But, it's not just excess levels. When FT4 is not too high, the body converts equal measures of T4 to T3 and rT3. But it doesn't always lower metabolic rate.

Paul Robinson believes that rT3 is the same as T3 except for the fact that it is not a biologically active hormone

Exactly. And it's not biologicaly active because the 'wrong' atom of iodine has been removed. Once again, we know that.

if too much RT3 is produced it will have a negative effect on the metabolism and the regulation of cellular function

And, how would it do that if it is biologically inactve? This is where ti all falls down. It can't be inactive and have a negative effect at the same time.

also says that most people convert iover 50% of their T4 to RT3 & therefore convert less than 50% to the actual metabolically active FT3 hormone.

Well, it does depend how much T4 you have as to wether this is a problem or not. And, I'm not convinced about his numbers.

Scientists & endo's argue about this constantly

Yup. And a lot of thyroid patients, too.

many endos, mine included, do not believe there even is such a thing as RT3 & therefore, (don't) won't check it.

Well, endos are renowned for their intelligence and knowledg of thyroid. But, I can see their point in not checking. Because, what are you going to do about it, anyway?

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

greygoose, I respect your knowledge & where it came from; you, like me, & many others have lived through it and thought it through many times. I agree with 90% of what you say. There is always something that cannot be proven but that some (or many) say they can prove. Like the majority of GP's or even some endos, who believe that T4 is the buy-all, cure-all, when it obviously isn't. May peace be upon us all in these trying times.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

Actually, they can't prove anything. Have you ever asked one why he thought this or that? They can never give you a straight answer. The hum and haw and change the subject. They just think what they were told to think in med school. :)

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

True. And whenever they confront a problem they dismiss the problem by first lying to you, the patient, and, then, to compound the crime, they lie to themselves and never recover but lie, in tandem, with all the newly graduated interns from med school, who have sold away their Hyocratic oaths by following Big Pharma's orders & prescribing tons of T4, while condemning T3, thusly, condemning those thyroid patients who have real issues that could lead to death, as they have either a difficult time converting their T4 to T3 or, unfortunately, have the 5' tetraidothronine (probably misspelt) enzyme that removes large amounts of iodine that usually causes most of their T4 from converting anymore than 40 or 50% of their T4. Peace be upon you greygoose and may your heart come to equal you fast-thinking mind (almost always perfectly). It's a pleasure to converse with you.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

You're welcome. :)

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to GKeith

Levo (T4) gave me severe palps and Lio (T3) resolved them.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to shaws

Are you absolutely sure about that? I realize everyone reacts different but I always had palps with T3 & constipation with T4?

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to GKeith

I can definitely reassure you that T3 sorted out my palpitations.

With the severe palpitations, my husband had to get up in the middle of the night and give me an ice-bag to put round my neck whilst I sipped ice-cold water which helped but T3 resolved problems.

I had so many checks with the cardiology department, many, many overnight checks - 24 hour checks etc and was taking levothyroxine and cardiologist was so puzzled and was considering putting an implant in my heart 'to see what was going on'. Around that time I had T3 added to T4 and palps instantly ceased and I eventually stopped T4 and took T3 alone. I have even reduced dose of T3.

That's not to say everyone will have the same experience but it's worth a trial.

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to shaws

This is another link from another specialist:-

"thyroidpatients.ca/2019/12/...

GKeith
GKeith in reply to shaws

I am thrilled for you because I know the terrible, strange feelings we with hypo or hyper get when we try but cannot explain to others what we have and what we feel. It makes us feel like aliens from outer space. Peace be with you & us all in these strange & world-shattering times.

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to GKeith

A link to Dr John Lowe, researcher, scientist, doctor - died through an accident. He was also an Adviser to Thyroiduk.org.uk.

tpauk.com/main/article/dr-j...

excerpt:

"Ive found no evidence that this condition becomes chronic, as Dr. Dennis Wilson proposed. Instead, the research literature shows that within a week or two, TSH secretion increases and 5-prime deiodinase escapes the inhibition by cortisol. This happens even though the persons cortisol levels remain high. For example, if the person undergoes prolonged treatment with prednisone, within a week or two, the TSH level returns to its previous level and 5-prime deiodinase becomes normally active again.

tpauk.com/main/article/dr-j...

The headaches in the night could be caused by teeth grinding and TMJ which is a hypo symptom. I fixed mine with botox injections on the jaw muscles.

pastimz
pastimz in reply to Newmummy82

You can also get a special mouth guard to help with bruxism (teeth grinding).

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Newmummy82

See above; it's the teeth.

Newmummy82
Newmummy82 in reply to GKeith

Oh did the headaches start immediately after the botched surgery?

TMJ can cause headaches and pain in the teeth so just a thought

tmjtexas.com/tmj-tooth-pain...

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Newmummy82

Anythings possible but I don't think that applies to me.

First of all this is an extremely difficult post for me to write and I am extremely nervous about the responses that I might receive but I want to share my experiences with GKeith.

I totally see where you’re coming from although my story is a little different.

I am currently in recovery after 3 years of NDT abuse which I started taking following an off the record recommendation from another GP at my practise.

I had been on Levo for 25 years and was overweight, under medicated, lacking energy and my GP wouldn’t take me seriously.

Like GKeith when I took NDT I had an energy hit, I felt pain relief from my migraines and chronic daily headache and I saw weight loss (140 to 117 ) but things quickly escalated. I started suffering from anxiety, my autistic meltdowns became more frequent and I developed frequent coughs and colds that my body couldn’t shift. I had chest infections, urinary infections, you name it, I had it. I lived liked this for 2 years before going to see my GP who immediately did blood tests and ordered me to stop taking my ndt and stay off all thyroid medication for 8 weeks to find my baseline point.

My weight went from 117 pounds (I’m 5’2 ) to 155 pounds and quite honestly other than my infections clearing up I felt dreadful.

At the end of 8 weeks my TSH was 25 and he put me on 125 mg of levo. I started to feel a little more human but still not great, I still had the bad headaches which my GP didn’t want to deal with until my thyroid was sorted out. After 6 weeks my TSH was down to 6 which my GP said was ‘good enough’ so despite me still lacking energy and feeling genuinely crappy he refused to up my dose or give me a full thyroid test. So guess what? The addict went back to her ndt.

This year the pain from my migraines got really bad so I decided to pay to see a private consultant and I ended up breaking down and telling him about my ndt addiction. At this point I was taking 8x thyroid- s a day!!!

He explained that the pain relief was totally unrelated to the T3 or T4 and that they were, in fact causing the headache. It’s the same principle as a caffeine addiction where you get withdrawal headaches.

We made a deal that if he sorted out the pain then I would go back on Levothyroxine.

He kept up his end of the bargain and I am keeping up mine. I am taking 150mg of Levo and my ranges are good.

I am full of energy, doing healthy training and my weight is the same as it was when I was consuming dangerous amounts of ndt.

The thing is, you CAN get addicted to anything. It’s not necessarily an ingredient, sometimes it’s a feeling or a ritual.

Thankyou for being brave enough to tell your story ,

Honesty is important.

I think you are being too harsh on yourself , in saying you were an addict. You were trying your best to fix yourself because no one was listening.

You were being refused enough thyroid hormone replacement by a doctor, so you added your own. This is not 'being addicted', it's 'being badly looked after'.

Really pleased you are full of energy now, and found a Doctor who helped.

And yes 'rituals' are just as addictive as 'ingredients'. I can do without nicotine no problem, but i find it much more difficult to do without hanging out with the smokers in the car park. rolling a fag .

GKeith
GKeith in reply to tattybogle

Good point, because everyone wants to feel "normal," and many "old" sayings are true, like:"Misery loves company."

How much NDT were you taking? It would be interesting to know because I found a blog the other day by a guy who claims that NDT is dangerous. It turns out he was taking 10 grains daily + 100 mcg of levo, so more or less 480 mcg of T4 daily along with 90 mcg of T3...no wonder he felt overmedicated. I´m not saying that´s what you did, I was just curious how much NDT it took to make you feel that way.

I was taking 8 grains a day with a body weight of 117 pounds

Then maybe you had some kind of thyroid hormone resistance? I recently read an article by a doctor (psychiatrist) who said overweight women with thyroid hormone resistance may need 6-9 grains of NDT daily. So while it´s a high dose it´s not unheard of.

It’s an interesting theory however my previous thyroid blood tests had shown that whilst my results were sub optimal due to my dose being a little low, the Levo was working as it should. I wasn’t taking additional ndt to feel ‘normal’ I was looking for results above and beyond what should be expected of it.

did the Doc find a fix for you headaches , or have they gone now you are on 150?

The daily headaches have totally gone. I was still getting my usual migraines but these have been taken care of with an anti-seizure medication, topiramate that is often prescribed for migraine pain .

That's good . Pleased you've finally found a decent doctor. Shame about the other two, i don't like the sound of the one who said a TSH of 6 was 'Good Enough' . I bet he wouldn't have thought it was good enough if he had it .

greygoose
greygoose in reply to tattybogle

I once had a doctor that told me 9.5 was 'good enough'! He didn't want me 'tipping over' into hyperthyroidism! lol Needless to say, he knew nothing about thyroid.

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to greygoose

Why are we still awake, do you do this every night ?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to tattybogle

At the moment, yes. I'm trying very hard to change my habits, but without success. The truth is, I prefer to sleep all day and stay up all night. I sleep soooo much better in the day! I don't like the dark.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to greygoose

Going to bed now. I really am! I said that an hour ago. But this time, I mean it! I think. lol

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to greygoose

Good Idea . Mee too , nite nite GG

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to greygoose

Grey owl 🦉🤨

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Scrumbler

Indeed! And, it's getting a little bit annoying! Wish I could get back to normal business hours. :(

tattybogle I only sleep about 5 hours a night and I do think it is something to do with my thyroid. I spend most of my time chatting to people in the US during the night. Someone actually thought I was from the US because I am always awake when they are. 😄

GKeith
GKeith in reply to discocat54

discount54, I am so sorry for your problems & everyone else's also. We must tmake these doctors aware that they cannot treat us as a "disease," but as human beings, first, last & always. I am very happy that you got it sorted out & hope I can do the same. These doctors are bad but the Capitalist System, esp. in America, is worse that anything because it literally kills people. For instance my teeth: they stand to make $5,000 on two teeth (if they "save them") but 'only" a couple hundred if they pull them.

Don’t body builders use T3and get addicted?

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to Margjeans

I don't think so. I believe they tend to use T3 for short periods to achieve particular effects.

(Unless you are writing of psychological addiction.)

angelofthenorth

As others have said, thyroid hormone is not addictive. If you need it, you need it, but you don´t keep raising the dose because your body gets addicted to it and requires even higher doses as times goes by. I believe what you are referring to are anabolic steroids which, I believe, are addictive...at least the effects (increased energy and mood) are (from what I´ve read). I think body builders use T3 mainly for fat burning (but I would imagine they end up with hyper symptoms if they are euthyroid to begin with).

GKeith
GKeith in reply to PurpleCat71

Remember this, if you remember nothing else: everyone is different. period! You can get addicted to carrots. Do you run 20 miles everyday? One of my lifelong best friends runs 8 miles a day & has everyday for the past 40 years. He calls himself the Raven & lives in Miami Beach. I boxed pro for 10 years.

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to GKeith

If some folk think they are addicted to carrots , i really don't think it's fair to blame the carrots. Same applies to T3 :)

sounds like you've had a hard time today at the dentist, i can empathise with that..pain and crumbling teeth and dodgy dentists are a horrible combination. And that bill is frightening. I've been scared to eat anything with seeds in for ages cos i'm scared of cracking my last useful tooth. really hope you can get the teeth sorted soon.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Margjeans

They are known to take T4 & T3.

I’m sorry to hear your story but this isn’t addiction per se. It’s abuse and not entirely your fault, The idea of a GP giving an ‘off the record recommendation’ for NDT is just appalling. If S/he felt that you needed NDT it would have been more ethical to ensure that you got it from a legitimate source and used it under supervision

I’m really pleased that you are now receiving the medical support that you need and that you’re doing so well. Long may it continue.

T3 abuse is not uncommon particularly in the world of bodybuilders. I’m not suggesting for one moment that your use of NDT was for this purpose but I do want to make it very clear that no thyroid hormone is addictive. I wouldn’t want anyone on this forum to be afraid to use T3 or NDT correctly because of fear of ‘addiction’.

It’s too long a debate to get into just now but there is addiction and dependence and the two are often confused. And then there is abuse which is completely different again

Thank you for posting 😊

I take t3 and t4, originally was just on liothyronine but of course that can’t convert and so I didn’t really get any better. Doctor switched me to a mix of both (100mcg levo 20mcg lio) and whatever it was this reintroduction of Levo made my migraines suddenly more frequent and unbearable! Rather than playing around with dosage I actually just started taking the levo at nighttime and it’s rare I suffer now. It’s super important to look towards outside sources as well as thinking in regards to your thyroid health. When my migraines got bad the first thing I did was actually book an eye test as well as a check up with a hormone specialist and lo and behold I have been wearing glasses ever since.

In the end the messing around with your dose probably hasn’t helped, and the poor dentistry won’t have helped either! Levo is cumulative so maybe wait a while longer and maybe check your blood sugar if OJ is the thing you crave to take the headache away!

FinneUK
FinneUK in reply to Totoro182

I'm confused. Isn't it T4 that sometimes can't convert. Who is given T3(liothyronine) only?

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to FinneUK

Some people are unable to convert from T4 to FT3. These people need to take T3 either alone or as a combi dose with Levo.

Other people don’t do well on Levo for a variety of reasons which may or may not be due to conversion issues. These people will often respond well to NDT which contains both T3 and T4 from a porcine or bovine source.

FinneUK
FinneUK in reply to Scrumbler

Thanks.

I thought conversion was one way only. This bit confused me:

"...originally was just on liothyronine but of course that can’t convert..."

humanbean
humanbean in reply to FinneUK

Conversion is one way only. T4 is converted into T3 and reverse T3, never the other way around.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to FinneUK

Many people take T3 only because they cannot convert T. Many more than you can imagine.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to FinneUK

That's right &, usually only endos prescribe t3 but many sufferers realize they cannot take any T4, like grey goose, & others on here, and end up on T3 only, Paul Robinson wrote a book, Recovering with T3, about it and many other also. Peace go with you.

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to Totoro182

Totoro, i don't understand why you say Liothyronine (T3) doesn't convert ? it doesn't need to , it's already T3

Totoro182
Totoro182 in reply to tattybogle

Literally every time I have to check which is which, was on the train and wrote this in a hurry so didn’t google which way round it was although most people seem to have understood my silly mistake!

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to Totoro182

i used this at first, until it stuck in my brain:

Levo =4 letters =T4

Lio=3 letters =T3

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Totoro182

I believe the O.J. is when I have low blood sugar, which happens occassuionally.

Totoro182
Totoro182 in reply to GKeith

Yes and I often get headaches that are more associated with my low blood sugar than any meds- especially in the middle of the night. Might it be that you’re suffering more from blood sugar problems rather than an addiction of any kind?

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Totoro182

Anything is possible. I hate it that one minute I can be feeling great and, literally, within a few minutes feel like fainting and having to lie down and put my own ice-cold hand to my burning forehead (slightly exagerrated but not by much). I definitely have a blood sugar problem but also a gluten meter & almost always make it as normal." I have to get my other 2 teeth pulled & see what difference it makes. Peace upon you

I used to get a lot of headaches before starting on T3. But I don't get an energy jolt when I take it - only notice fatigue and low mood when I don't. No dental work. But I'm addicted to oxygen - if I don't breathe, I feel really unwell.

🤣

Me too Angel. My migraines are so incredibly reduced now I am on T3 [and progesterone also]

10-4 on that all the way. You, as I, & everyone in this world is a totally different individual. What we all need is love, along with understanding & peace.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to GKeith

Can you get addicted to love, understanding and peace? As well as carrots and oxygen ? Or is it just that when they’re taken away from us we suffer a sense of loss?

Sorry Scrumbler, I totally understand your correction of my wording. You are absolutely right, NDT is not addictive and I’m sorry that I didn’t make that clear in my post.

I would not want anyone to think that there is any ingredient or content that could become addictive.

I have an obsessive personality (I am autistic and have limited hobbies that I throw myself in to) , and yes, I was a bodybuilder. Something I have just taken up again under the close supervision of my GP.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to discocat54

I understand. Thank you for clarifying 😉

You’ll get the headache after 5/6 hours because that’s how long the T3 lasts In your system. I take 20mcg every 5 or 6 hours . So you’re hardly addicted.

Redlester
Redlester in reply to Dunkenb

Just curious - never heard of that dosing regimen before. Does that kind of even things out for you? and how much are you taking in total per day then?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Dunkenb

T3 has a half-life of 23 hour, actually. And, what gets into the cells stays there for about three days.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to greygoose

All due respect, greygoose, to your "knowledge" from your vast experiences, but it "lasts" 23 hours for you and maybe some other but maybe not for me, or? Peace be upon you & us all.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to GKeith

No, I didn't say it lasts 23 hours. I said it's half-life in the blood is 23 hours. And that's not what it does for me, that's scientific fact. Of course, it doesn't do anything in the blood, it has to get into the cells to do anything. But someone above was saying that it stays in the 'system' for 5/6 hours. And, that's just not true. Quite what he meant by 'the system', he didn't say.

Half-life means that the dose you take this morning - say 10 mcg - by tomorrow morning there will be about half of that left. But, in the blood.

I agree, but it´s often said - also by doctors prescribing T3/NDT - that T3 has a half-life of 3-6 hours (depending on source) and therefore has to be multi dosed. I personally never found that to be the case, though...it would seem there is some confusion between how long it takes for T3 to PEAK after ingestion (a few hours) and how long it stays in the body...I have read for up to 72 hours in the latter case (would that be on cellular level or in blood...not sure?)

It’s 3 days at cellular level

Thanks!

Well, you can't believe anything a doctor says! What does he know? lol Yes, I think you're right, they are confusing the half-life with the time it takes to peak. As far as I know, the half-life in the blood is about 23 hours, and it stays in the cells for about three days. But, there's nothing precise about any of it.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Dunkenb

Dunkenb, Just because you get it in 5/6 hours doessn't mean I will, or anyone else.

I understand where you’re coming from and I completely get your anger, thankfully you’ve found this amazing collection of people who have been there and can help. I just wanted to let you know that you’re not completely wrong with what you’re feeling, ie the pain relief. I had debilitating back pain for four years. I had no idea it was related to my thyroid. I was told my thyroid was “fine” but I always knew I had Hashimoto’s. I thought I’d wind up in a wheelchair, the pain was so bad. I couldn’t stand for more than a few minutes without my lower back going into obvious spasms. It was horrible! I finally went to see a functional doc who put me on NDT and t3 and within a day or two my back pain was 100% gone. I actually take 1 grain of NDT and 50 mcg of t3 everyday. I don’t think you need to take it every few hours but I have heard that some people do that. I think it’s most likely that you need the t3 and you are getting pain relief from it. Not like a pain pill, but more like, your thyroid levels aren’t where they should be and your body is reacting with pain. That’s my theory, the back doctor I had seen for years thinks I’m insane and there’s zero chance that two small thyroid pills took away my pain but yet here we are. I can only say this is what happened to me and my pain, not exactly why. I think you need to stick with the same dose for several weeks and see what works, switching doses so often will not help. And yes, it’s extremely frustrating that doctors don’t tell us what they should, likely they don’t even know. You’ll find very few doctors knowledgeable about the thyroid, it’s very sad.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Katurajo1

You are another human being; good god, we are everywhere, aren't we. Peace

I had issues with t3. I was on it for over 4 years. And then somebody gave me a different kind of T3 not in the pill and I felt amazing three months, and then I crashed. It caused me a lot of issues, to the point where I almost had to withdraw from it, which took me a few months of ups and downs. I am now completely off T3 and feel normal again after believing I had to be on it. Unlike what these forums or Facebook groups say, not everyone needs t3. Listen to your own body and do what works for you. People are taking way too much t3 then what our body actually needs. Just remember to take the advice and do your own research.

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to jbicondoa

I’m not sure what posts you’re reading but the statement ‘unlike what these forums or FB groups say, not everyone needs T3’ and ‘people are taking way too much.....’

Seriously?? The first thing that is ‘advised’ on this forum is

Get full thyroid and Vit tests

Optimise your Vits and minerals

Optimise your Levo

Gluten free trial

Good diet, minimise stress

And then waaaaaaayyyyy down on the list is add T3.

And how do you know people are taking way too much? Where have you heard/read this?

jbicondoa
jbicondoa in reply to NWA6

I said what I said and I say it with experiences. Don't have time to argue or convince you.. I say that was niceness. You can google the studies and info regarding t3.

Mermaid238
Mermaid238 in reply to jbicondoa

I don't know what Armour consists of - I was just prescribed thyroid because I was low when I was 26 - I am no 85 years old. First of all I think doctors are only trial and error. They are pill people. They have no idea not the capacity to cure anything or anyone..

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to jbicondoa

It’s not a matter of ‘arguing’ this is an open forum and so if you’re going to make sweeping statements there’s going to be a rebuttal. I don’t find your statements to be accurate. I don’t need a ‘study’ to tell me I’m taking the right amount of T3, I feel it.

jbicondoa
jbicondoa in reply to NWA6

Then do what's best for you. I said that above. Listen up your own body.

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to jbicondoa

It’s not enough for me to do what’s best for me, I have to try and give a personal experience for those looking for answers. Your reply was not that (for me) it was a huge generalisation that’s not acceptable (for me). If you had said ‘do what’s best for you’ that would be sympathetic but not helpful for the poster but also maybe better than what you did say. I actually find what you did post triggered me to rebuke because even though the vast majority of patients do well on Levo, fact yes but then they wouldn’t be here looking for answers. I also find it worrying when people say ‘I said what I said’ like that’s it, you have no ownership of what you said.

No matter, you don’t want to elaborate and we’re all adults and will take snippets of experience from here and there.

jbicondoa
jbicondoa in reply to NWA6

It is enough, why wouldn't it be? If you feel good, then perfect. If you don't, keep looking.

They're is a reason so many people still don't feel well and post so much woo. Such as "T3 doesn't work? It's your adrenals, vitamin b, cortisol"... Is it?

It keeps people running in circles. I've watched it for years. When I pulled away and looked for my own answers based off how I feel, science based, that's when I got better.

Me. That's the word I'm using so there is no reason to go back and forth with me. To convince me of what, exactly?

Do what's best for you. I don't know why that's a problem. I think that's the best advice you could get in life.

I'll say it again, not everyone needs T3 so when people are given bad advice to continue the T3, raise it, try it again.. That's bad advice. I learned the hard way.

PurpleCat71
PurpleCat71 in reply to NWA6

I did not write the post you are reacting to, but it´s a fact that not everyone needs T3. Many people are fine on T4 only (although you may not find many on forums such as this one...many members join because they have issues with the standard treatment and are looking for advice on alternatives).

Also, the statement that people are taking too much T3 (or that NDT contains too much T3 for humans) is often repeated in various forums. The idea behind this is that the human thyroid only produces tiny amounts of T3 daily (about 6 mcg and, since some T4 to T3 conversion takes place inside the gland itself, the total daily output is about 10 mcg from what I´ve read). So, when you take 25 mcg of synthetic T3, or 3 grains of NDT containing 27 mcg of T3, you are taking more T3 than your own thyroid would produce if healthy.

But : if you are a poor converter, it makes sense that you need more T3 as your body cannot effectively convert T4 at a high enough rate. Or, if you have thyroid hormone resistance, it´s logical to assume you need more T3...after all, T3 is the active hormone.

Also, if conversion slows down with age, it would be logical to need T3 at some point.

Some doctors, such as US doctor of osteopathy Westin Childs (restartmed.com), claim that conditions such as insulin and leptin resistance increase the body´s need for T3. He has successfully treated patients with such symptoms using a combination of NDT + T3 to avoid too much T4 for his patients´needs.

So, it really isn´t that simple. There is no single dose of T3 or T4 that is too much or not enough for everyone. Some people take too much T3 and develop hyper symptoms, yes. But it´s also a fact that many people on T4 need much higher FT4 levels than those you find in a euthyroid person in order to get their FT3 levels high enough. And many others need higher doses of T3 than those normally produced by the thyroid gland to rid themselves of all symptoms.

I think it's not possible to generalise that 'the human thyroid produces x amount of T3 /T4 ' There is a huge amount of individual variation in (healthy) thyroidal production ratio's of T3/T4.

The often repeated statement about 80% T4 to 20% T3 comes from the conclusions section of the 'pilo' study, and has been repeated all over the place for years as fact, but the actual results of that study showed a massive individual variation , more people produced equal or greater amounts of T3 compared to T4 than the other way round, and hardly anyone had the reported 80/20 ratio , it was just a statistical average.

Sorry, what do you mean by " a different kind of T3 not in the pill"?

Sorry I typed that too fast. What I meant was before my T3 was in the pill and then after that it was taken separately from my T4.

Oh, I see:-) I thought you´d found a pill-less form of T3...!

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to PurpleCat71

It there a liquid form?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to NWA6

There is in Italy, yes. don't know if you can find it anywhere else, though.

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to greygoose

Some very suspicious sites sell various liquid T3 products, but they all say things like "for research only" in an attempt to disclaim any responsibility. Definitely illegal in many countries. And very questionable in every way - purity, potency, consistency, etc.

I post this as a warning to anyone who reads so far and decides to look further.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to greygoose

Isn’t there a new spray version coming out?

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Scrumbler

I haven't heard about that. Not sure if that would be a good idea. Where would you spray it? The reason we tell people not to take their T3 sublingually is that the molecules are too large to pass the mucus membraine, so I don't see how a if a spray would work.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to greygoose

It’s still under research. I’m not keen on transdermals or sublinguals.

If ever it gets onto the market, I suppose you could spray it where you like Gg. With your magical powers it will be bound to work.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Scrumbler

Ha ha! I wish!

No, I'm not keen, either. Very fussy what I put on my skin.

One seller of NDT has said for a while now that a liquid form of NDT would soon be available. One spray (into the mouth) would equal 30 mg or 1/2 grain. But the website has not been updated for months, so I am not sure there will ever be such a product available...it´s supposedly called Ora-DT.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to jbicondoa

Uh-oh, another one of those pesky men from outer space ... oh sorry ... from earth. Different make-up. Peace be upon us all, esp the human beings.

I am in Florida too. I take Armour - your story concerns me

I was on T4 only for most my thyroid journey and felt mentally terrible most of the time. I went onto combination therapy, T4 +T3, last year and my mental health has improved dramatically. Before T3 was added i was an absolute irritated mess who couldn't tolerate any social gaveringsor or shopping trips without having a meltdown. I used to get so much pressure behind my eyes and in my head i thought it would explode. Shortly after they added T3 those symptoms above disappeared. T3 is an amazing medication i don't know how people cope without it just thinking back to before i was given it makes me shiver.

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to Angelic69

I too started my combo treatment last year and I agree that the added T3 made me mentally well. I’m relaxed, happy and have a positive outlook on life 🤗

Angelic69
Angelic69 in reply to NWA6

Im so glad they will prescribe in my area. Many people get refused i really feel for them that really need the added T3 but go without.

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to Angelic69

My area does not prescribe 😞 I get it privately but Brexit, the impending retirement of my Endo mean that I live my life 6mths at a time 😬 I need to start the process of trying to get it on NHS but my head is buried in happiness atm 😂 Need some big girl pants to get started! Lol

Angelic69
Angelic69 in reply to NWA6

My Gp will not take on my prescription for T3 despite the endocrinologist saying i do have the need. The hospital are dispensing mine but its a worry evrytime i go for a repeat. My endocrinologists wants me to have the gene test done, i think then the GP will have to prescribe. I don't have big girl pants, LOL XX, i was just lucky to be seen by a different consultant who presented my need to my endocrinologist who then agreed to trail.

Have you seen this article.

l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to Angelic69

The link went skewhiff! 🤪 do you want to try it again?

I’ve had the DIO2 test. It showed I’m at risk of not converting. No one was interested in the result 😩

My GP prescribed me a months supply once last year before the CCG told her to stop. Short but sweet. My NHS Endo says that what I’m doing is dangerous *sigh*

Angelic69
Angelic69 in reply to NWA6

That link is incredible, i could hardly believe that the price increase was oked.

The pricing of liothyronine has been conducted transparently with the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) over a period of ten years, with price increases notified in advance and implemented only after approval from the DHSC.’.

Crazy made me feel physically sick.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Angelic69

I sincerely hope it stays good for you. Peace be upon us all.

Just on the dental work alone, after having teeth extracted there shouldn't be bone spurs left behind which you have to remove with tweezers. That would suggest to me that the teeth were not extracted properly and that you might have what are called "cavitations" where the gum grows over the hole where the teeth were removed, and if the dentist didn't also remove the peridontal ligament which was holding the (extracted) tooth in place then it will be left behind in that "hole" and forming an infected socket - that could in turn be causing "referred pain " around to the back of your head - the bone spurs left behind and the temp spikes suggest that to me. If that is what has happened then you would need to seek a consult with a dentist who has been trained in removing cavitations. I don't know what the situation is in the US but I am sorry to inform you that, in the UK at least, very few dentists know to remove the ligament and carry out cavitaton surgery, and I can't advise you about how to find such a dentist in the US. See this link from the Weston Price Foundation to get you started - if you contact them they may be able to advise you.

westonaprice.org/health-top....

I had cavitation surgery [and some infected jaw bone removed] a couple of years ago under the care of my holistic dentist. He didn't want me to take antibiotics or painkillers so I took excellent homeopathic remedies from a US company which worked like a dream for the post operative care. They dealt with, pain and inflammation and also helped my body eliminate the bi-products of the stuff used in my mouth during the dental procedures, and also warded off any infection. I took 2 doses of ibuprofen and that was it - afterwards I used only the homeopathics and made a great recovery. I'll try to look out the links for you if you are interested. You have my sympathy!!!

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Redlester

Believe it or not the dentist pulled the teeth like she was pulling nails out of a board. I actually heard the tooth snap in hald and she piched out shards for quite awhile. Peace be upon you.

Lora7again
Lora7again in reply to GKeith

I would make sure you get all the roots removed because my elderly Aunt is now having to have some of her roots removed several years after her teeth were removed.

Redlester
Redlester in reply to GKeith

oh that sounds dreadful - and also sounds like dentist wasn't doing a competent job - to be on the safe side you should research someone competent and go and get those teeth looked at by them, a pain I am sure, but, and this is very real, every tooth in our mouth is connected along a meridian to other parts of our body, so if there is stuff going wrong with particular teeth and you don't get it properly dealt with you run the risk of having consequences for your general health further down the line. See this chart

drdawn.net/learning-center/...

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Redlester

Exactlt true. Today, these "specialists" "save teeth to make money. They literally put a crown on top of a bone build-up in my mouth and I paid for it. Now they are actually redoing the bone build-up but the dentist putting the crown on informed me of the truth and now I am seeing a periondondist who works for this same dental cooperation and will argue that he can do nothing because I am suing him.

Redlester
Redlester in reply to GKeith

if there is any way you could switch to an other better dental practice it might be the best thing for you - it is so important to your good health. Hope it all works out and you begin to improve.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Redlester

I never realized how much destruction a dentist could cause pulling a tooth and, likewise, not pulling a tooth because they can cover an infected, cavity-laden tooth up with a crown & deny they knew it ever had a cavity.

Redlester
Redlester in reply to GKeith

and charge you a small fortune for the [highly dubious] service rendered!!!

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Redlester

100% right. My two teeth (2 front lower) are matching two similar teeth on the right side. They are the last 4 teeth left on my lower gums & are also the only teeth holding my lower partial in place. Naturally, when they tell you the lower plate is so terrible you can batrely eat, etc. you want to keep them to hold the partial in place. I have already paid them 2 grand and they want $2500 more to finish them and then do the other two on the right side. These teeth mean $5,000 to them & that is it. To pull them it is $400. That's their incentive & I am not standing for it; because of one honest dentist who couldn't put another crown on thin air. Peace be to you Redlester in these trying times.

I am unhappy about anyone saying they are addicted to thyroid hormones of any kind. This idea that they are addictive has been used against sufferers for years as a reason to keep doses low, and so for this idea to get an airing on a thyroid forum makes me rather angry.

Doctors have told some patients that thyroid hormones are like cocaine or heroin, which is complete nonsense. If it was so wonderful why would anyone with an overactive thyroid ever seek medical help for treating hyperthyroidism?

If people don't feel well on thyroid hormones then there are loads of reasons why that might be the case. But the patient being addicted to them is not one of them.

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to humanbean

I couldn’t agree more! I typed my reply before reading yours and I feel the same. This kind of talk hinders proper treatment. However I respect the posters feelings and hope we can ‘correct’ them. The anger is real but the thinking is skewed.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to NWA6

I’ve been saying it all day. We seem to have two threads going which are pushing this fallacy.

I wouldn’t want anyone to be put off taking T3 or NDT because they were under the impression that these hormones ( not drugs ) are addictive.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to humanbean

Last time I say it, human beings can be "addicted" to anything, literally. Peace be with you.

I wholeheartedly agree! This discussion somehow derailed at some point and I am no longer sure what the OP is really trying to say. I think many members have been very patient and helpful, but somehow the OP does not seem happy with their replies...I do agree that statements that thyroid hormone is addictive are potentially detrimental and won´t help people who really need it, especially T3. Statements such as these can also make doctors believe that T3 should be avoided at any cost...there is someone calling himself an MD with a blog called "hormones demystified" who vilifies T3 and claims it´s dangerous and NDT is useful only if you are " a hypothyroid pig". He´d love to read posts such as the original post and use it to prove his claims that T3 is dangerous...another reason to be careful what we write here. Many doctors are all too happy to find "proof" that patients suffer because scrupulous colleagues "poison" them with T3...

Here is an excerpt from the blog hormonesdemystified.com (the guy claims to be an endocrinologist):

"I believe that this is the most common reason why people like T3. T3 is a short-acting hormone that – especially when given in supra-physiologic doses (like pig thyroid!) – tends to act as a stimulant. This is actually true of lots of hormones when taken in higher than physiologic doses. Ever take a whopping dose of prednisone for a few days and feel like Superman? Do you know any body builders who juice and feel fantastic for three days after an injection of 1000mg (venti-sized dose!) of testosterone? So, just because someone feels good on T3 does not mean that she is deficient in that hormone. Smoking crack probably feels pretty good, but you’d never assume the addict has a “crack deficiency.”"

LoL, What muppetry is this ? . Thanks for saving us the effort of wading through his site. .

I think if any of us were after a 'high', we'd be buying something much easier (and cheaper !) to get hold of than T3........ like Cocaine perhaps,(nasty stuff) or ' insert street drug of choice here'.

Yeah, I find this guy crazy. If he wants to get his message across, he should not compare T3 and crack...!

I have no idea who is behind the signature, so no way of knowing if he is a real doctor or just some attention-seeking maniac...

Whilst he is anonymous his credentials as a Dr and Endocrinolologist, albeit a controversial one, are backed up by Dr Bret Scher ‘Diet Doctor’ and cardiologist who has interviewed him on his blog. I cant help but be suspicious of bloggers who feel the need to be anonymous...

Yes, that´s very strange indeed...if he is so certain he is right, why not do it under his own name?

One thing I've noticed about hormonesdemystified is that the author is very coy about who he is. It took me ages to even find out what gender he is (male).

Yes, I fail to see why all the secrecy...

GKeith
GKeith in reply to PurpleCat71

Doctors that villify T3 do so for one reason and one reason only money. Their insurance companies pay twice as much for Lio as they do Levo. All American companies preach this & In fact, Big Pharma actually influences (money) enough publishers to have this philosphy published in first year medical students text-books, in some colleges.

You’ve been treated poorly and that’s completely ‘normal’ within the thyroid community. I can’t make head nor tail of were you’re at right now with your treatment as it ‘reads’ all over the place. Perhaps you stick to where you’re at right now, try not to chop and change, test, optimise Vits/minerals/diet. After you’re stable for a couple of months - good or bad then look to increase one or other hormone supplement. If you never needed T3 in the first place I wonder if it’s possible to slowly decrease this and increase Levo to the point that this is your only thyroid supplement?

Just as a side note, T3 does not give me a ‘hit’ a ‘high’ I feel no effects except to feel normal, happy and my emotions are even. I just increased recently because of hypo symptoms, I forgot the extra for 2days and on the 3rd day I had a nap in the afternoon and thought ‘that’s odd’ then I realised that I forgot my updated dosing.

Have you got your most recent results for us all to ponder over?

And *hugs* I know how difficult this condition can be. It’s a bitch when not optimal but talking about ‘addiction’ in this way actually damages the treatment on offer for the rest of us because our docs have such low experience themselves. My Endo and GP would have me believe that I’m taking this hormone unnecessarily, they liken it to steroids! This makes me so sad and leaves me vulnerable to their mercy as if I’m asking them to score some coke from them 😔

GKeith
GKeith in reply to NWA6

The truth is the truth. All it wants to do, many times, is but to appear. I (didn't) don't make ANYTHING UP & I don't believe anyone else did either. The truth is bad enough. Peace unto you.

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to GKeith

I’m not sure I understand what your saying?

GKeith
GKeith in reply to NWA6

I'm saying the truth is apparently "strange" to almost all doctors, endos, and others involved in thyroid medicine who also have such power as to make a patient's life much better or horrible and all because of knowledge or lack thereof. The only doctors who actually treat patients it appears to me are human beings with hearts & feelings and patience who have their interests at heart. Too many doctors practice medicine for only only thing: money. I, like so many others, came into this because I gained 30 pounds overnight & the doctors prescribed 88 mcg of T4. It stayed there for 28 years and I woke up out of necessity as I am now attempting to go back (I know, impossible) to 1990 & tyry to figure out what I should "now" do. Go back to T4 alone and raise the dose up until I feel good or stay with T4T3 combo and keep searching. Get my infected teeth pulled immediately or wait until the dentist corporation which promise to have a peridontist pull them in 10 days? What a life.

Wow. Some crazy suggestions here. There is nothing wrong with taking T3 every few hours. It has a very short half life. People that are on T3 only have to dose multiple times a day. 20 isn’t a large dosage at all. I would get some proper labs done, TSH is useless. A healthy thyroid doesn’t just produce T3 in one big lump, it’s spread out durning the day. Your fine.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Sdeem

Right but if you're just taking T4, as most hypo's are it will have to convert to T3, which is, ideally, what you want because you can get relatively close, via the blood test, to your optimum level. Of course, everyone is different but ...

As I already mentioned: I am taking T3 & when taking an active pill, like T3, you cannot "check" to see if it is converting. Peace be with you.

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to GKeith

There is no need to 'check if T3 is converting' . That makes no sense. T3 doesn't need to convert to anything because it's already T3. We just need an FT3 test to measure it.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to GKeith

What does T3 convert to?

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to Scrumbler

Life?

humanbean
humanbean in reply to Scrumbler

T2, then T1 (and then T0 ?) and then gets excreted.

The number corresponds to how many iodine atoms there are in the molecule. The body recycles iodine to make more thyroid hormones. I have read that T2 has a function in the body but can't remember what.

GKeith
GKeith in reply to Scrumbler

T3 is already an active pill. It is T3, it's already a "converted" pill.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to GKeith

Dear God

I’m losing the will to live

Amen

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to Scrumbler

😂 you and me both! I don’t even know what we’re taking about anymore 😬

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to NWA6

Nobody does. This is The Mad Hatters Teaparty. 🙄

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Scrumbler

Funny you should say that. I'm going to a Mad Hatter's Tea Party on Sunday. I'm going as the March Hare. A judicious choice!

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to greygoose

Hope social distancing will be observed 😊

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Scrumbler

Oh, indeed! Masks and hand sanitizer provided!

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to greygoose

Maybe you could get someone, a native French speaker, to recite as below, as best they can, without thinking at all:

Un petit d'un petit

S'étonne aux Halles

Un petit d'un petit

Ah! degrés te fallent

Indolent qui ne sort cesse

Indolent qui ne se mène

Qu'importe un petit

Tout gai de Reguennes

greygoose
greygoose in reply to helvella

Why?

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to greygoose

Try saying it yourself. Then recite:

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,

Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.

It is the utter ludicrousness of a native French speaker not understanding the words they are actually saying - phonetically. Perhaps unfair on the person, so choose carefully who you ask to do it.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to helvella

Where did you find that?

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to greygoose

Today:

Mots D'Heures: Gousses, Rames: The D'Antin Manuscript (Mother Goose's Rhymes), published in 1967 by Luis d'Antin van Rooten, is purportedly a collection of poems written in archaic French with learned glosses. In fact, they are English-language nursery rhymes written homophonically as a nonsensical French text (with pseudo-scholarly explanatory footnotes); that is, as an English-to-French homophonic translation.[1] The result is not merely the English nursery rhyme but that nursery rhyme as it would sound if spoken in English by someone with a strong French accent. Even the manuscript's title, when spoken aloud, sounds like "Mother Goose's Rhymes" with a strong French accent.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mots_...

But I have known it for many, many years. Just can never remember the words, or any of the very many slight variations, so always have to look it up!

greygoose
greygoose in reply to helvella

OK, I see! I don't think I know anyone, these days, that would appreciate that sort of thing. But, it's very clever. :)

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to helvella

I can understand some written french , but my pronunciation has always been laughable.

Now that i've got the joke ( It took a while, i spent a long while yesterday, trying to makes sense out of it :) ), this exercise has improved my understanding of how to pronounce French with more success than my long suffering French teacher could ever manage.

I thank you .

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to tattybogle

My appalling spoken French improved a little when I changed how I held my mouth, etc., between sentences and phrases.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fille...

Lora7again
Lora7again in reply to helvella

My husband can speak fluent french but has never wanted to visit France! Nobody can at the moment anyway .... I use google translate myself because I am hopeless with languages. Have you seen Duolingo?

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to Lora7again

Indeed I have. Keep meaning to get going on it - but something gets in the way. (Well, that's an excuse to myself really.)

Whatever I can manage to say gets spoiled by my inability to understand the replies! I find native-spoken French is often very challenging. But it does vary considerably.

Lora7again
Lora7again in reply to helvella

I used to get thrown out of the language lab when I was at school. My Dad can speak German but I am hopeless at any language I'm afraid lol

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to helvella

Yes , i think where i've been going wrong is thinking each word is pronounced separately......... i get it now....... they join the sound from the end of one word onto the start of the next . That also explains why i can't understand when they talk.

Thanks for the fascinating link, i've been wondering how to say 'thingy ' in Assyrian for ages.

I never understood how someone without a thyroid could listen to a doctor who has a thyroid? Being as I, with a thyroid, can't even get my mess sorted out. They treat the disease & forget the patient. I wonder if I am converting? I can no longer check it out. I had a blood test this ,orning and took some T3 6 hours before I took it to see how much more T3 will show up? Oh well, with the T4 maybe converting and the T3 akready T3 who knows what will show up; the doctors will make something of it no matter what happens. I am curious to see what shows up. My two teeth that are still, admitted by the dentist who crowned them, decayed under the crowns, still bother & I have to get them pulled. It is totally insane. I paid them $1500 & now, one of their dentists will charge me another $400 to pull the two infected teeth that they just charged me $1500 to crown.

NWA6
NWA6 in reply to GKeith

GKeith is English your first language? I feel like something is getting lost in translation here with this post 😬

Scrumbler
Scrumbler in reply to NWA6

That was a good film. “Lost in Translation’. Seen it several times.

tattybogle
tattybogle in reply to Scrumbler

I enjoyed it too, and i'd had some mushroom tea before i went, so it made perfect sense.

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