Hi all, I take 75mg Levo (hashimotos). Last couple of weeks my right arm, elbow and wrist has become more and more painful, sore and weak. I also have pains in my other arm but not as bad. Most of my joints are sore and painful at different times. My knees are both swollen and the skin looks purple around them. My knees have been like this for over a year now. Doctors looked at them last year and just said they didn’t know why other than fluid retention. They also tested for Rheumatoid arthritis but test was negative (12-18 months ago). It seems this has started (the new symptoms) in the last 2-3 weeks. I spoke to my GP today and had a blood test which they say will be 2weeks. I also have Lichens S. I’m guessing this may be a another auto immune disease attacking me. Does anyone have anything similar? Would appreciate any advice or information. Thanks in advance x
Hashimotos. Lichen S and now possibly Rheumatoi... - Thyroid UK
Hashimotos. Lichen S and now possibly Rheumatoid arthritis?..
I have Hashimoto's and LS.
LS is known to be linked to autoimmunity especially Hashimoto's. I hope your blood test gives you some answers.
I've heard good things about the AIP diet (autoimmune protocol) which might be worth looking into (I actually followed it myself for 6 months when I discovered I had Hashimoto's. It's an elimination diet designed to help you learn which foods cause inflammation in your body and trigger your symptoms). It's designed to reduce inflammation in your body and heal your digestive system to help your body absorb more nutrients. It's highly restrictive and not easy to follow. At the very least, try looking into a gluten and dairy free diet to help with your autoimmunity. For many Hashimoto's sufferers, avoiding gluten and dairy is considered essential to our recovery.
Oxalates are thought to exacerbate LS symptoms so that's another thing to research. Some foods are very high in oxalates and when you go to the bathroom the oxalates irritate your skin on the way out, causing inflammation and itching.
I don't know much about RA unfortunately but I know many RA sufferers follow the AIP diet or Whole30/Wahl's Protocol.
So yeah Google AIP diet, low oxalate diet and Hashimoto's/rheumatoid arthritis diet for more information, there's loads of it out there. I hope that helps and good luck!
75mcg levothyroxine is only one step up from starter dose
For full Thyroid evaluation you need TSH, FT4 and FT3 plus both TPO and TG thyroid antibodies tested. Also EXTREMELY important to test vitamin D, folate, ferritin and B12
Low vitamin levels are extremely common, especially as you have Hashimoto’s
Ask GP to test vitamin levels
Recommended on here that all thyroid blood tests should ideally be done as early as possible in morning and before eating or drinking anything other than water .
Last dose of Levothyroxine 24 hours prior to blood test. (taking delayed dose immediately after blood draw).
This gives highest TSH, lowest FT4 and most consistent results. (Patient to patient tip, best not mentioned to GP or phlebotomist)
Is this how you do your tests?
Private tests are available as NHS currently rarely tests Ft3 or thyroid antibodies or all relevant vitamins
List of private testing options
thyroiduk.org/getting-a-dia...
Medichecks Thyroid plus ultra vitamin
medichecks.com/products/thy...
Medichecks often have special offers, if order on Thursdays
Thriva Thyroid plus vitamins
Blue Horizon Thyroid Premium Gold includes vitamins
bluehorizonbloodtests.co.uk...
As you have Hashimoto’s are you on strictly gluten free diet
Lichen plants also frequently responds very well to absolutely strictly gluten free diet
Hashimoto's frequently affects the gut and leads to low stomach acid and then low vitamin levels
Low vitamin levels affect Thyroid hormone working
Poor gut function can lead leaky gut (literally holes in gut wall) this can cause food intolerances. Most common by far is gluten. Dairy is second most common.
According to Izabella Wentz the Thyroid Pharmacist approx 5% with Hashimoto's are coeliac, but over 80% find gluten free diet helps, sometimes significantly. Either due to direct gluten intolerance (no test available) or due to leaky gut and gluten causing molecular mimicry (see Amy Myers link)
Changing to a strictly gluten free diet may help reduce symptoms, help gut heal and slowly lower TPO antibodies
While still eating high gluten diet ask GP for coeliac blood test first or buy test online for under £20, just to rule it out first
Assuming test is negative you can immediately go on strictly gluten free diet
(If test is positive you will need to remain on high gluten diet until endoscopy, maximum 6 weeks wait officially)
Trying gluten free diet for 3-6 months. If no noticeable improvement then reintroduce gluten and see if symptoms get worse
chriskresser.com/the-gluten...
amymyersmd.com/2018/04/3-re...
thyroidpharmacist.com/artic...
drknews.com/changing-your-d...
restartmed.com/hashimotos-g...
Non Coeliac Gluten sensitivity (NCGS) and autoimmune disease
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/296...
The predominance of Hashimoto thyroiditis represents an interesting finding, since it has been indirectly confirmed by an Italian study, showing that autoimmune thyroid disease is a risk factor for the evolution towards NCGS in a group of patients with minimal duodenal inflammation. On these bases, an autoimmune stigma in NCGS is strongly supported
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/300...
The obtained results suggest that the gluten-free diet may bring clinical benefits to women with autoimmune thyroid disease
nuclmed.gr/wp/wp-content/up...
In summary, whereas it is not yet clear whether a gluten free diet can prevent autoimmune diseases, it is worth mentioning that HT patients with or without CD benefit from a diet low in gluten as far as the progression and the potential disease complications are concerned
restartmed.com/hashimotos-g...
Despite the fact that 5-10% of patients have Celiac disease, in my experience and in the experience of many other physicians, at least 80% + of patients with Hashimoto's who go gluten-free notice a reduction in their symptoms almost immediately.
Come back with new post once you get full thyroid and vitamin results
I don't have Hashimoto's, but I do have lichen S and probably also RA. I was tested for RA but apparently the tests quite often come back negative. That doesn't mean I don't have it. My joints are very sore, especially my shoulders and thumbs. My hip has eased out because I have been furloughed, so am no longer on my feet all day. I'm afraid I have no help to give you, but it sometimes helps to know you are not alone.
Hi, Denise133, you could be allergic to some foods or additives. I have the same symptoms when I eat something that I am intolerant of. Mine is mainly all dairy produce, wheat, melon, some nuts, peppers and Chili etc. As soon as I stopped eating these foods, all my excess fluid cleared and my joints are no longer inflamed. You could go on an elimination diet and eat only oily fish, sweet potatoes and courgettes for a week and see what happens.
Hope you get better soon, Gisela
Hi Denise133.
I have the same pains in my arm, wrists and my left elbow. I also did have swollen knees which was linked to a bakers cyst. I believe the arm/hand pains are carpal tunnel syndrome. It’s really common in people with thyroid disease. I’m also on 75mcg and I am pretty positive it’s because we’re still under medicated.
I was sent to a physio for some arm and knee exercises. It helped my knee but my carpal tunnel is still terrible. I can barely lift anything with my left hand due to severe elbow pain. It sounds like we are similar so look it up and see if it could be.
I recently did a food intolerance test with Blue Horizon and it came back that I have a severe allergy to casein and whey so basically all dairy products and things like breadcrumbs and some processed foods. This is day six of cutting it out completely to try and rid my body of inflammation. I haven’t given up gluten yet. It didn’t flag any intolerance up but I will cut it out. Just not yet. The sudden lack of dairy is bad enough!! Perhaps a test would be good for you too?
Carpal tunnel should get better on it’s own when medication is optimum apparently, otherwise there is a small relatively straight forward local anaesthetic operation for it. I also suffer with joint pain at times, particularly the top of my foot, neck and shoulders. I’m convinced it’s all linked as I never had it before I had Hashimoto’s and as far as I know do not have any other conditions. Pretty sure you’d benefit from an increased dose. Best to check your vitamins out too as some people are treated using B6 and it can work well. I’m about to do so myself. I hope the blood test is helpful for you x
I am also autoimmune Hashi’s and on 75mg Levo and have had joint pain as others have described: especially shoulders and thumbs. I think it was triggered by a virus l had in November 2019. I am trying a reduced Oxalate diet and have been gluten free and mostly dairy free for several years. I still cycle and swim and keep pretty active as the pain usually eases off, but getting out of bed in the morning is hard and l feel like l have run a Marathon ( l ran one in 1997 so know what it feels like!). I have found supplements help with some symptoms like energy - magnesium citrate at night with selenium selemenothione (something like that), and CoQ10 after lunch with Hemaplex iron with B vits. I find the pain varies from week to week and do wonder if it’s diet related. Still trying to work it out, but from reading these posts am wondering if it’s the 75mg Levo being a low dose. My recent results were; TSH 0.63 (0.27-4.20), T4 20.9 (12-22) and T3 4.5 (3.20-6.80). In Feb l had high plasma viscosity 1.98 (1.50-1.72), down to 1.82 in March which indicates inflammation.
Thanks that’s really helpful
I have RA. I never ever tested positive for the RA factor. They eventually diagnosed me re joint damage. I had , had a viral infection which my little children had brought home from school /nursery. I was ill and unable to keep any food down for 3 weeks. I then a couple of weeks later started with joint pains. The first question the rheumatologist asked me: had I recently been ill? apparently it is the case for many. They know this but never look for the culprit. From what I have researched it seems there is a possibility that the virus/bacteria hides in the body out of the reach of the immune system. With RA it would be your in joints, hence the attack. One thing I have learned is the immune system does not suddenly turn on you, attacking you - this makes no sense. There is a reason. Maybe that reason is the immune system has a target as with the bacteria hiding. Or maybe your immune system is so overwhelmed and worn out with all the work it has to do that it becomes confused.
If you have leaky gut - food proteins, bacterial proteins get though the gut lining and create an immune response - this can result in allergies or full blown autoimmune attack.
One of the food proteins that damage the intestinal lining in everybody (not just people diagnosed with coeliac) is gluten and then it is there at the scene to get through into the blood stream.
Gluten protein structure is very similar to many tissues in the body especially thyroid and brain tissue and so often the immune system having recognised there are these too large proteins in the blood stream mounts an attack against the proteins but also the thyroid or other tissue that looks so similar. Which is why many with thyroid conditions exclude gluten from their diet. It's not about avoiding, it's about totally removing which is not an easy task as manufacturers put wheat in everything. And Dr Tom O' Bryan and Dr Peter Osborne (gluten experts) stress that there are 60 different gluten proteins. Many including myself therefore exclude all grains from their diet including cornflour (which is a biggie)
Experts go as far as stating that anybody with any condition should try removing gluten, really for 3 months to see if the condition is resolved or feeling better.
Dr Datis Kharrazian's area of research is looking at all food proteins and the similarity to different organ tissue - especially the different areas of the brain. Dairy proteins are often culprits. But as Dr Kharrazian has found it can be any food which you could consider healthy for you
One way of not overwhelming your immune system and confusing it is to not let all these food proteins and bacteria waste (LPS) into your blood stream via a leaky gut lining. Anything that is in the intestine could/will get through into the blood stream so bacteria, parasites etc and provoke an auto immune attack.
Plan A would be healing a leaky gut and balancing your intestinal microbiome ( more beneficial bacteria and other organisms than non beneficial) so eat to feed your beneficial organisms ( they are permenantly messaging the nervous system and receiving feed back info) Beneficial bacteria make vitamins or release vitamins from food to provide your nutrient supply. 70% of the neuro transmitter Serotonin is made in the intestines not the brain. Bacteria responsible for healing /repairing the intestinal lining cells need to be living and thriving in your intestinal microbiome - I believe these are Plantarum - check your probiotics. But food is key eg fermented saurkrout etc
Sugar creates an acidic environment in the intestines in which beneficial organisms cannot thrive and flourish but non beneficial ones do. Sugar is not just added sugar but anything that digests rapidly to sugar such as grains .
In Addition increase your intake of nutrients. I feel I had probably been deficient in nutrients as 3 yrs before had 2nd pregnancy and breast feeding and probably never recovered nutrient repletion and then the viral illness and not eating must have been the tipping point.
With research over the years I recognise the importance of vit D levels and supplementing every day unless hot midday sun. I like my vit D level at between 130mmol/L and 150mmol/L
Vit K2 (which is not K1)
With Covid 19 research I now see the importance of vit C supplementation(infact I have recently seen studies re vit C and RA which I had never known about) liposomal vit C min of a gram/ prob 2 taken opposite ends of the day.
Magnesium (never calcium supplementation)
Omega 3 (balance omega 3 s and 6 1:1 (phyto plankton a good source that is not oxidised like fish oil supplements often are
Eat natural wild salmon , grass fed quality meat , organic free range eggs, and organic fruit and veg. No point killing off your beneficial gut bacteria and organisms with herbicides and insecticides. Ban any Glyphosate (RoundUp) from your life.
I take Serrapeptase - see info 'The miracle enzyme'
I buy my Gluten free source from Advanced Supplements ( owner Josephine for advice - contact details on website). Disolves inflammatory tissue and fibrinogen, cleans blood of gunk etc
Fibrinogen is usually found above normal levels in blood test so much so that high fibrinogen serum levels could be used as a definitive diagnosis of RA. Ask your GP for blood test (is just in the clotting tests so common and cheap.
Ask for C Reactive Protein (CRP) blood test - measures inflammation levels
Check that you have your diet and supplements on the right track by watching your CRP levels come down (ideal 1 or below) aim for 3 and fibrinogen levels come down to the bottom third of the normal range. Which is a healthy level -good luck with that, I have only
managed to ever get my fibrinogen down to just scraping into the high normal range.
Ask for vit B12 test (or private test active B12)
My opinion is if have an autoimmune condition, supressing the immune system is not the answer. I feel I need a strong immune system and would rather try and remove the triggers and heal my body.
Thankfully , when in tears having just left Rheumatology with xray diagnosis, I walked into Holland and Barrett's (they then sold books) and I grabbed the first book I could see through my tears - How to cure your arthritis naturally, written by a rheumatology nurse who resolved her own RA. It set me on the right track and I am so thankful and have read that book, that was 25 years ago. I have always refused RA meds at my monitorin Rheumatology appointment.
Functional doctors (autoimmune protocol doctors) state doesn't really matter which autoimmune condition you have - all stem from the same cause x
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