Due to very high rt3 i am on t3 only from 6months, i slowly increased to 80 mcg last 20days, untill last month my rt3 was VERY VERY VERY VERY HIGH, and ft4 was 0.24 0.8-1.76 it doesn't want to go zero!! My tsh is suppressed of course! 0.004 after 5 h from my first dose of t3.
So basically i have high rt3 because i still have some ft4 in my sistem, but the question is, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE!? IN GENERAL PEOPLE CLEAR FT4 AND RT3 IN 12 WEEKS WITH TSH SUPPRESSED AND A DOSAGE OF T3 UP TO 35/49mcg.
Any feedback? Experience about clearing?
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Dawid86
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No, I'm afraid that's all wrong. If you cut out all T4, the rT3 will reduce to zero, because it is the result of conversion from T4 - without T4 there cannot be any rT3, that is obvious. But, it could be that your thyroid is still making enough T4 to be converted to rT3.
However, if your rT3 is not caused by over-dosing on T4 and poor conversion, then it will just come back when you add T4 in again. High rT3 is not just caused by over-dosing on T4. It can also be due to many other things: high cortisol, low ferritin, low-calorie diets, infections, certain drugs, etc. etc. etc. So, before you can clear your rT3, you need to find and address that other problem.
But, rT3 itself is not a problem. It only hangs around for about two hours, and is then converted to T2. And, contrary to popular belief, it does not block T3 receptors, it has its own receptors. So, if you're suffering from symptoms, it will be that other unknown problem causing them, not the rT3 itself.
Diogenes gave you an excellent reply to this in your last question about this topic a few weeks ago.
I’m afraid there won’t be better advice here than that. The consensus of opinion in the comments for your last post is that you’re taking too much T3. If you don’t want to reduce the amount of T3 you take, maybe consider ignoring the RT3 position.
Disagree, totally, the purpose to t3 only protocol to clear rt3 is make ZERO FT4 BY SUPPRESSING TSH 24H,so in about 12-15weeks rt3 will come to zero! Because rt3 is made from ft4 only!!
To do this, you have to take enough t3 (40-50mcg) to allow a totally suppressed tsh and of course to allow to ft4 to come to zero! this is science!! Not opinion. Biology.
TAKING TOO MUCH T3, WILL MAKE RT3 HIGHER IF FT4 IS STILL PRESENT!
My question is : why taking 80mcg t3 i still have ft4, is my tsh is suppressed?!
i am not HYPER ON 80MCG I FEEL MUCH BETTER.
I think you have some misconception about tsh/ft4/ft3/rt3 dinamics.
My question is clear i think, need some feedback from people who have cleared their rt3. Just this, i appreciate all reply, really, thank you soo much, but they are not usefull and it is clear they are written from peoples who didn't clear their rt3.. Or not experienced in this things. It is so clear to me.
Just read your last post on this subject. You didn't get anywhere then, and I doubt you will with this post. Have you never considered that perhaps no-one has every 'cleared their rT3' because it's just not possible to do so?
You know very well, because you said so in your last post, that there are many reasons for high rT3. Therefore seems obvious to me - although I don't have any sort of degree or qualifications - that you need to fix the cause of the high rT3 for it to 'clear' - although there will always be some. Just trying to raise your FT3 to rediculous levels, suppress your FT4 and your TSH, is not going to work, because the high rT3 will always come back until you fix the root problem. And shouting at people and telling them they're ignorant is not going to help things either. I wish you well.
1- I am following groups as rt3-adrenals, and t3 support, ALL PEOPLE FOLLOWING THE PROTOCOLL TO CLEAR have had success to clear rt3, it is a logical thing! Suppressed tsh=zero ft4 after 11 weeks about =zero rt3! It is a fact! Adding t3 is not making rt3 higher if you have suppressed tsh and zero ft4! THE RT3 WILL GO HIGHER ONLY THE FIRST WEEKS ON T3, BECAUSE THE BODY TRY TO PROTECT ITSELF, untill the ft4 will start to clear, at that point also rt3 will fall.
2-OF COURSE YOU NEED TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSE OF RT3, i study a lot, i am investigating.
3-TREATING THE ROOT CAUSE IS NOT LOWERING RT3 VERY OFTEN, simply because the rt3 dominance in time makes the enzime Deiodinase d3 dominant (they convert t4=rt3) creating a vicious circle in wich even less t4 in converted to t3....
You need to give a break to this vicious circle!! and of course treating the root cause.
3-MOST PEOPLE ON T3 PROTOCOLL, TAKE A DOSE OF T3 JUST TO SUPPRESS TSH 24H ALLOWING FT4 AND CONSEQUENTLY RT3 TO Clear, often about 40-50mcg for 8-11 weeks then they discovered a right ammount of t3 to fuction well, and often they finish to add some little t4 like no more of 40 mg.
Some people instead during THE CLEARING PHASE, NEED TO TAKE 80-110MCG T3, eventually then they will reduce they t3 ammount when it will clear... THE MEDICAL LETTERATURE, BOOKS, ONLINE GROUPS ARE FULL OF THIS SITUATIONS.
4- if you are on t3 at REPLACEMENT DOSE AND YOUR FT4 IS ZERO, IT IS NORMAL TO HAVE FT3 2 OR 3TIMES ABOVE THE RANGE! And be FINE!! you must use bp, hr, temperature and symptoms to understand how you are! Not blood exams.
You can read about on Paul Robinson's book etc....
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Guys, i appreciate your time, reply, help, but please i asked some feedback, idea, inputs, FROM PEOPLE USING THIS PROTOCOL TO CLEAR RT3.. i am not interested to know the opinions of peoples about the nature of rt3 and if the protocol is good or not, or if rt3 blocks or not the t3 receptors, or how dosing t3 im general, I AM NOT SUPERB, REALLY, THANK YOU, BUT NEED USEFUL INPUTS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAS A GOOD PREPARATION ABOUT, OR FROM PEOPLE THAT HAVE EXPERIENCE SIMILAR TO ME.
I am not interested to discuss if t3 is or not a good choice to clear rt3 etc...
Look, I do understand what you're saying - and god knows, i don't want another discussion on rT3, either! But, I don't understand why, if you know so much about it, and you know all these people on other forums that have successfully done this protocol, why you are asking your questions here, where nobody seems to have done it successfully - either no-one has, or they're keeping very quite about it! You are getting yourself all worked up when it's obvious nothing is going to come of this line of enquiry. Why don't you ask the people on the other forums that have done it? Why insist on here?
I understand. But, surely you must realise by now that you're not going to find feedback on here because there doesn't seem to be anybody else in your situation.
If I've understood correctly - and, frankly, you're really not very clear about anything - you want to know why your thyroid is still producing FT4 when your TSH is zero, is that correct? I really don't think you'll find anybody here in that same situation. I've never read another post asking about that. But, presumably, your thyroid is still producing T4, despite the suppressed TSH, because your thyroid is working well. Were you hyperthyroid to begin with? Or do you have a diagnosis of hypo? We really know nothing about you, so it is difficult to launch in with a hypothesis, let alone a concrete answer.
Please stop SHOUTING at people 🙂. I am sure you are frustrated about your situation and that is understandable but, this is the second time you have posted regarding this and you are obviously not getting the response you want. If you are “following groups” and people have successfully cleared their rt3 using the same protocol, why don’t you make contact with them e.g. the online groups you mention in your point 3. Good luck in your thyroid journey. Regards, JCMK
So if everyone doing the same as you has been successful, why are you here shouting at people; why aren't you getting on with doing what "everyone" says works? I don't even bother to look at my rT3. I am on T3 only, but I feel bad when my free T4 drops much below the bottom of the normal range (so I take a grain of NDT when that happens). You are SO rude and arrogant!
You won’t get better answers. People here aren’t obsessed with RT3. Those people whose blood tests don’t seem to tally with how they feel eventually ignore the blood tests (which are never 100% accurate anyway) and concentrate on taking the level of thyroid hormone replacement that makes them feel better. It’s not clear why you’re chasing a zero for FT4. I’ve never seen a set of blood test results here which show an FT4 of zero, even when those people are on T3 only and have been years. And I’ve read literally thousands of blood test results here over the last 5 years. If you’ve been to sites where you have seen that, maybe stick with them...
How do you feel on 80mcg T3? Better? Or all wound up and agitated?
For sure i feel better on 75mcg/80mcg,but not good.
I am following Paul's Robinson books.
I am using ct3m.
My cortisol was very low, normal, high, high.
Using t3 my progesteron, testosterone, went up, more optimal than before.
My total cholesterol went down from usual 190 to 170mg/dl.
But my rt3 is even more higher due to the presence of ft4 yet.
I have very very few ft4 from 3months (0.23 0.6-1.76), but high rt3, and rt3 in excess make yoy hypo, it is a fact not an opinion.
The question is : why i still have some ft4? My purpose was clear ft4 and in turn rt3, yes you are right.
I have a small nodule, i am thinking maybe it is producing a little t4 itself!
Yes all people on other group have cleared rt3 on t3 only at good dose.. Me not yet.
P. S. I used t4/t3 6 month3ago and i was much worse! At 50mcg t4/20 t3 my rt3 was very very high, but less than now! But.... I was much worse on t4/t3. So i switched to t3only to clear rt3, addressing the root case of it, healing adrenals with ct3m and if needed pregnenolone.
I haven't hyperthyroidism, i have a small nodule, no antibodies, before to start any treatment i had: tsh 3.5 from years, ft4 low in range, ft3 mid-point about, high rt3, Cortisol on salivary :very very low, high, high, high.
Your adrenal results show you are not making the thyroid hormone when you sleep (this is a major production time).
So many low thyroid patients have low morning cortisol.
The adrenals then start working harder than they would normally do to compensate for low thyroid production.
So you get over production of cortisol at the wrong time. This varies between patients but high night cortisol shows the adrenals are still running in over drive.
Often thyroid meds do not help the situation because to high a dose is introduced to quickly. You need to use really small amounts of thyroid meds.
Eg 12,5 t4. Or if using t3 2mcg max if the tablet can be cut so small.
So it looks like the root cause of the high rt3 is the high cortisol.
It is evident to all on here that the t3 is causing your body to make the rt3. Your body is in a hyper alert state for what ever reason. More and more t3 will not solve this issue.
But let’s say we are all wrong and you are correct. Why do you need help with your experiment. Just keep going higher and higher until you crack the problem. I remember reading years ago a guy needed to get up to 120 t3 + per day to clear. Then he settled on 80 if memory serves me well. He had his own website talking about this but I’m not sure it is out there still.
If you are so stuck why can’t you contact Paul Robinson directly? I think he does consultations
If you think i am wrong, and you haven't an good feedback about, why you write?
1- i am in contact with Paul! NE SAID PROBABLY I AM A PERSON WHO NEED 80MCG AT LAST TO CLEAR MY RT3, SOME PEOPLE NEED ALSO 110.
He said all peoples can clear rt3 with the right ammount of t3, suppressing tsh 24h for at last 12 weeks, he said i will be better when i ll clear rt3!
2- i am using ct3m in a very logical whay, I am taking 25mcg t3 at 4 am!!
Your comments about dosing t3 are totally not sense in this situation.
I TRIED T4/T3!!!! I WAS MUCH WORSE!,anxiety, moodness, exhausted!!!!
T3 in ct3m is working, my mind is logical, lucid, again fast. But i am not good due to still high rt3 and low morning cortisol!
Paul suggested to increase t3 to 80mcg,and maybe to 100mcg..safety.
To allow mh rt3 to clear, then ct3m wil be more effective and i should address my root cause for rt3! At that point i could try to add some little t4 to give stability, if tollerared.
The propel with middle conversion problems t4=t3 usually can use max 30-40mcg t4, someone even less, someone no t4 at all like Paul!
So are you more competent than Paul Robinson?
To all people that say me i must lower my t3 because this is the cause of my high rt3 : are you more competent than Paul Robinson??
He said me totally different things, as the t3 group support.
Why i am writing here? BECAUSE I SIMPLE WOULD LIKE TO SHARE FEEDBACK /EXPERIENCE WITH PEOPLE IN MY SITUATION! not to spent time to read not useful comments, non sense from people who haven't in mind a clear and knowledgeable opinion of these things.
I am not an arrogant boy! Really, my apologies if i seem so, but after 1 year of studying about, 1 degree in biology, etc.. If i ask a feedback about, i don't want to reply to not pertinent comments. Just this.
I can't spent time to explain the biology to people who have superficial idea about rt3/ft4/tsh /cortisol.
If you read my other post about pregnenolone i am kind and serene, because they give me some feedback, experience usefull, just this.
P. S i have low low morning cortisol, normal, high, high range now! And if you look at the total output it is at bottom of range, so tge root cause of rt3 isn't high cortisol!
Most probably gut issues /inflammation! Due to high ferritin.
I am a lot more competent than you because I am well and have done everything going with meds since 2008. So coming up to 11 yrs of experimentation and reading. Still have plenty to learn because there is no one answer to solving the thyroid/adrenal problems. It’s a big complex story and you are approaching it from a pretty narrow perspective. I have posted to try help you see your approach is wrong in my 11 yrs of experience.
Like everyone else says, I hope it works out for you.
Okay, thank you for sharing, wich is your approach to high rt3, cortisol low, normal, high, high, if i took t4 it becomes rt3 and i feel worse, i tried. Only t3 gives me some improvements. Please explain..
It's my understanding that Paul Robinson used T3 only because T4 just didn't work at all for him.
The circadian T3 method, as I understand it, was Paul Robinson's way of finding out, after the T4 had cleared his system entirely, what his optimum dose of T3 would be and at what time(s) of the day or night they would be taken and at what amount of T3. It was his way of finding his optimum dose and at what times they might work (for him) and nothing else.
As far as rT3, I believe that Robinson stated that, his opinion, was that it was converted from FT4 and that many converted 50% or more of their FT4 into rT3, meaning they convert less than 50% of their FT4 to the metabolically active FT3 and that the rT3 was similar to T3 but it's not biologically active and the levels flare up and down so much that it was impossible set levels of rT3 or any ideal ratio of FT3 to rT3.
He also stated that the dynamic nature of rT3 makes it very hard to know if a person has a rT3 issue or not, unless multiple blood tests are taken during a 24-hour period due to rT3 level varying so much hour to hour.
Robinson's personal view was that rT3 is useful in many cases but also irrelevant in many cases concerning the real problem.
So, why are you so concerned with rT3? Have you had these multiple blood tests done because if you haven't you're probably barking up the wrong tree. Peace be to you.
As I said before, the reason for your high rT3 is that taking as much T3 as you do, and clearly having some working thyroid left (you have a measurable FT4) then the extra T3 is preventing T4-T3 conversion, so the T4 diverts to producing rT3. The high rT3 is entirely due to this. Lowering your T3 should lower your rT3. Try it and see.
You are right in this! It is so. But i am on t3 due to high rt3!!!! I was bad on t4/t3.. Even 50/20!!much better now on t3 only. The problem is that i am still producing some misurable t4 that of course in forced to convert to rt3 under exogenous t3... It is clear! If i stop t3 i ll be as before!!!! A zombie!! And high rt3, lower than now but higher. On t3 only i am much better but not good. The purpose is clear rt3, addressing the root cause, then add some t4 as tollerated.
So your suggest are not good, not usefull, non sense in my situation.
The smart question should be - how is it possible to have some ft4 on tsh suppressed and 75mcg t3
Clearing rT3? With your regimen, impossible. Re fT4 still produced by the thyroid. Suppressing TSH does not stop your thyroid, only slows it down. Forget rT3: it does nothing and is simply a product from T4, regarding T4 as a toxin and clearing it away. rT3 has a lifetime of a few hours whereas T4 is 1 week.
Well, if Paul suggested you might need 100mcg T3 to stop your own thyroid producing T4, why don’t you try it? You seem pretty sure we’re all wrong that taking 80mcg T3 is too much. You’re saying it’s fine. And you don’t seem interested in the explanations about why RT3 is irrelevant. So try 100mcg of T3. See what that does.
What else can any of us tell you? What are you expecting us to say when you shoot every suggestion down in flames? People are trying to help you and you’re biting their heads off. No one’s going to come along with different advice and even if they did, it really doesn’t seem as though you’d take it anyway.
Have you measured TSI (Graves' antibodies)? That will stimulate the thyroid gland to produce, even when there is no TSH. This is what happens to Graves' patients.
You keep saying your rT3 is very high. What is your result and the reference range?
You know how some people are ok on T4, and others are not? Same applies to T3. Only a minor few do fine on T3-only. You are obviously one who does not. You are unable to see the flaws in your thinking because normal brain function requires T4. Too much T3 often causes something called hyperthyroid dementia. Screaming, anger, writing in all caps, anxiety, insomnia, and inability to reason are common. Sorry.
I have sent you a private message. I read ALL the books you have and have studied this topic from 2014 until today and did get my rT3 down from 18 ng/dl in 2016 to 8 ng/dl in 2017 until I could not afford it any more as it is very expensive in Canada. I had a last result of 12 ng/dl for rT3 even with NO T3 at all for over a year and now take NO thyroid medication and can start again in a safe way to get rid of it like I did in 2017. So I am a success case and know well what I am doing. I also see why the people here are not happy with your apparent shouting as they take it personally, and with good reason.
So I understand you desire to get the rT3 down as it is also my goal for myself, but I found the more T3 I took the lower the success rate. I went down 7 pints with 4 months of intermittent use that was either one month on or off as I am NOT a thyroid patient and can make my own if not taking it. I was just trying to get rid of the rT3 like you are trying to do.
I figure some of yours got bound to protein and was therefore not really used but disposed of. So when I start again I plan to use only two half tablets a day and for one month and then not for one month so as not to lose my own ability. I expect like that I will be able to get down to about 5 ng/dl and that is good enough as most people have some level and all they do is not measure it, but it is there, just not discovered.
I already know the people here disapprove of that as they are taking thyroid medications daily. I happen to know that if one takes them daily it will l close down your own ability eventually as that is how I became diabetic over the 38 years of taking insulin and now cannot live without it and I plan NOT to do the same with my thyroid.
When my TSH was at 0.01 in mid 2017 my other doctor the GP who is more a friend than my doctor called me to yell at me that he would be disciplined if a patient of his had those results with such a low TSH and he asked what did my endocrinologist say as he is the one following me on this and I just send blood test results to BOTH of them. I said I do not talk to him about it as I do know what I am doing and he knows that so gave me a repeat prescription for 6 renewals as he already has heard how I am doing it safely.
I agree with the people here that you are taking WAY too much T3 as taking more cannot PUSH out the rT3 as it falls away from receptors when it is good and ready to do so. I myself would never do that suppression like that to that extent and I agree with the others here that you are misreading those books. I found it takes TIME for the rT3 to fall away and the slower you do it the safer it is to keep your own abilities healthy.
And once you do get it to go down it does go back up again as my level did go back up to 13 ng/dl (from the previous 8 ng/dl) and then down to 12 ng/dl on it's own with only supplements. I only test 2x a year.
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