Armour Dosage Help Please

[MoaningLisa]

Hi. I'm currently on 60mg of T3 only - still feeling rubbish. I want to finally try what everyone raves about, Armour. No idea what dosage I should take though? I had tried Nature Throid, 3 grains a day, it was 'ok', didn't really feel much difference. I'm trying pretty much anything and Armour is so expensive but gonna try it anything. Any advice on dosage please? Thanks in advance.

[humanbean]

Why not try some of the Thai products - the NDTs at the cheaper end of the scale. Cost doesn't seem to correlate with quality, success, or happy patients in the NDT world.

[MoaningLisa in reply to humanbean]

Thanks for your reply. I have bought Thyroid S, 1000 pills for just £35. To be honest, I haven't tried it properly (I've taken 2 for a couple of weeks and stopped), I was just a bit weary of it since I bought it from <site deleted by Admin>, it's from Thailand but how do I know if it's proper Thyroid S and not a cheap knock off? That's why I haven't been taking it. Don't know what to do really! Just thought I'd try Armour as I keep hearing about it, though I've also read it's not as good as it used to be.

[Clutter in reply to MoaningLisa]

MoaningLisa, that sounds about the right price for Thyroid-S on the site you mentioned. If you Google "Thyroid-S Images" you can see pics of the tablets.

Thyroid-S tablet is a light brown color and shiny.

All tablets are white or off-white inside.

Thyroid-S is a coated tablet.

Tablet Anti-Counterfeiting: The coating on Thyroid-S tablets is thin and distinctive and not easily duplicated by counterfeiters.

Packaging: (Please Note: This discussion on packaging is referring to the full bottle 1,000 tablets packaging. The small packs, ie. 30-250 tablets, are packed in sealed, re-closeable, moisture barrier bags as described in the product listings. The bottle packaging is not available in tablet sizes less than 1,000 tablets.)

Thyroid-S is packaged in a brown glass bottle with metal cap, and with moisture absorber inside, and cotton to fill the extra space in the bottle. The glass bottle is inside a cardboard box with shrink wrap which functions as the security seal.

[Anthea55]

Thyroid medication of any sort works best if your vitamins/minerals are up to scratch. Have you had anything checked? See this page from the ThyroidUK website

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/treatm...

Your doc may test some of them, but most doctors these days have very little training in nutrition. You can find a local nutritional therapist from the BANT website at bant.org.uk/

Also have you tried going gluten free - it helps many people.

[kalel]

Did you have any blood work taken when you where taking Nature Throid. Maybe taking three grains a day was not enough for you?

I am currently taking WP and even though I have only been taking WP for a little while. I may end up taking at least four grains of WP before I start to feel any improvement.

We are all different and maybe Nature Throid did not work for you an you need to try another form or medication.

[LAHs]

Well, this is a bit of a shot in the dark but 100 mcg is a pretty conservative dose of Levo and the equivalent dose of Armour is about 1 1/2 grains.

60 Armour = 1 grain, 30 Armour = 1/2 grain so 1 1/2 grains is 90mcg i.e. a little under the 100mcg Levo dose.

At the moment I am taking Activis NDT but should my doctor stop prescribing it for me I will self medicate from the Australian source - registered on an island off it's NE coast! I guess they have the same problems in Australia as we do in the US and UK.

[Thyroidian]

Your adrenals could be affected. Have them tested.

[Catlover3]

I would get your B12, Ferritin, Folate, D3 checked. Don't take it for granted that your levels are ok just because you are told. Get copies of these results. My daughter was told her ferritin was fine and it was 16 - range 15 - 300 and was not tested again until a year later, still suffering from extreme fatigue.

[Hidden]

I think you need your ferritin tested your b12 and vit d and folate then post, If they are OK you need to do a saliva test to check your adrenals. Armour is not any better than any of the other NDTs just more expensive and has been around longer. It keeps being reformulated so is not reliable. You need to take you thyroid meds reliably for quite a while before you might see any improvement. Starting at 1 grain and build up by 0.5 of a grain every six weeks with a blood test before each raise. There are no short cuts. You can also take your pulse and temp to see improvements that you might not initially feel.

[Angus1]

Take the T3 in the early morning 4 hours before waking you may need to increase you t3 dose Dr Lowe says some people extremely T3 resistant need up to 500 mcg but normally 50 to 150mcg's, I'm currently taking 140 mcg's in the early morning but have only just started following Dr Lowe's protocol already feel much better. Google Dr Lowe Thyroid Utube it's a no BS approach to T3/hypothyroidism.

Regards Angus

[Clutter in reply to Angus1]

Angus1, if you have a link substantiating that Dr. Lowe advised anyone to take 500mcg T3 I would be very interested in seeing it.

I think that it is extraordinarily reckless and dangerous to suggest anyone takes anything like it.

[Clutter in reply to Angus1]

Angus1, Thank you for PMing me the link below in which Dr. Lowe discussed with another doctor why some patients needed supraphysiological doses of T3. He was NOT advocating patients take up to 500mcg.

yldonline.com/tpadocs/Dr_C_...

[heathermr]

RUBBISH!!!! I am taking about the same amount of just T3 because that is what my body needs. I have built this up slowly over years until I just and only just get rid of my Hypo symptoms. We are all different and are bodies need different levels of medication.

I do not have any T4 in my body, so NO, YOU DO NOT NEED T4! Since going to T3 I have regained my life from having nearly died from myxoedema. I dont care whether you want to call it quackery but I know that I am better, my brain is working better and its right for me.

Also the CT3M works for me because it mimics the natural cycle of how thyroid hormones work in the body.

So please, stop making judgements on what other people need based on your thoughts. I suggest you try talking to those of us that have recovered from being Hypo using T3 only. I can't take T4 as I have damage to the pituitary which means that I don't produce any TSH. I have tried T4, it nearly killed me, I was so ill with myxoedema it has damaged my brain permanently.

Heather

[heathermr]

No I had to find out the hard way like a lot of other people on here that a lot of our "proffessionals" in the NHS have absolutely no idea other than the ' old blood tests' only mantra. My damage comes from a head injury some 25 years ago, in those days no testing was available and since then I've developed epilepsy from the damage but still no-one has tested me or helped in any way. The chief Endo I eventually saw had no idea what was wrong and I would be dead by now if I had followed his mantra of T4 only. By the way, have you ever been on the receiving end of some Endos who just look at the blood tests and send you on your way? Its not nice, or helpful and at times bloody dangerous. You are just left with no support and no relief from the dreadful symptoms that are ruining your life. Is it any wonder that people in desperation end up on line trying to sort out their health? The damage that happened to my brain because I was incorrectly treated by an Endo has now been diagnosed as thyroid dementia which is being helped by the T3 medication.

Clearly you are not aware how T3 spikes in the blood after dosing but you should know that blood testing is not going to help as the results can be manipulated by stopping the dosing 24 hours before testing as recommended. This just shows how false and pointless it is but that spreading the doses in small amounts through the day helps to stop those spikes. All this is logical if you have any insights as to how the thyroid system works.

I believe very much in a common sense approach to life, I make my own judgement from what my body tells me is right for me. I don't listen to tittle-tattle from Scaremongerers who like to throw their weight about. I hope that by telling people of my experience that they too will be able to think outside the box and find a way to recover from the dreadful hypo which is just written off by most of the NHS.

Heather

[Clutter]

MoaningLisa, 60mcgs T3 is roughly equivalent to 2.5grains NDT.

How long did you take 3 grains NatureThroid and did you have blood tests to check you were optimally dosed on NatureThyroid and more recently 60mcgs T3?

[HIFL]

I agree with you that 500 mcg T3 is excessive, and I am intrigued by this statement of yours: "Practitioners who are advanced in this stuff [CT3M], will disavow that method, and they will explain why it seems to work for a few, and the explanation is not what people are told." Would you mind sharing the explanation? I've also heard some horror stories, but always wondered why it works for some but not for others.

And yes, I wish more people would read Tired Thyroid to learn the facts. When patients parrot gross misinformation, it only gives doctors further proof that we don't know what we're talking about. It sets our cause backwards.

[heathermr]

If you look back it was not me who suggested increasing doseage of T3 up to high levels. I have only reported my own story and left it up to the reader to decide what to do with the information. I have always said that my dose of 140 mcg T3 is what is right for ME and I have taken the decision to self medicate after nearly dying under the care of the NHS. My T3 works well for me, its the only thyroid medication I can take (and yes I have tried them all including Armour and T4). My husband is a bio-chemist and he is very happy with the way T3 works for me and has checked out why it works well for me and the doseage I am taking.

My dementia started over 10 years ago before I had any thyroid medication, as my TSH was always zero yet I was in the depths of myxoedema that started off the damage in my brain. Since starting the T3 and recovering, my dementia has actually improved much to the amazement of my specialist, and is more or less stable on this dose of T3.

The pituitary damage was noticed after MRIs after I started with epilepsy last year but i have since been discharged now that the anti-epilepsy medication is working to stop the fits.

I know that T3 is right for me and might be of benefit to many more people but you can only tell by trial and error as we are all different. I have now been on T3 for over 6 years and have been able to turn my life around from spending 24 hours a day in bed to playing rigorous games of tennis 3 times a week, cycling 20 odd miles a week and enjoying life to the full. Just T3 works what ever the science, you do not need T4 in the body, I am living proof of that!

Heather

[HIFL in reply to heathermr]

Heather, has your T4 ever been tested? Do you still have your own gland so you make some T4? I've always wondered if the effect of T3-only is different for someone WITH a gland vs someone without.

[heathermr in reply to HIFL]

My T4 was originally tested about 7 years ago and it was very very low because my TSH was practically zero and originally I was put on T4 medication as I was so ill but it made me even iller. Over the next few years the TSH became nearer to zero as the myxoedema set in. I still have a thyroid gland but because of the overriding influence of zero TSH I now do not produce any T4. I've had a couple of blood tests since I went on to T3 and the T4 level is virtually nil. Now even my GP said its a waste of time doing blood tests as the levels of T3 move up and down far too quickly in response to whatever you are doing.

Heather

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK]

Girlscout2,

Pituitary damage is incredibly rare, ...

How rare?

I happen to suspect that pituitary damage is far more common than was once thought.

[Girlscout2 in reply to helvella]

And the solution is T3 only?

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to Girlscout2]

I didn't say that I have any solution to pituitary damage and its consequences. I certainly didn't remotely suggest that T3-only is, or even might be, a solution.

I simply suggest that pituitary damage is more common than has been thought. I have not found what I consider a satisfactory source which identifies its commonness or rarity but would like to know why you say it is incredibly rare so I can factor that into my understanding.

[Elle70]

I had to go on T3 only as a last resort. My doctor did a full range of thyroid tests using the Genova full thyroid panel (Anti-TG, Anti-TPO, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3, TSH). I had varying results but Reverse T3 and low T3 stood out the most. He said that it is very important to start T3 as low as possible and increase slowly. Taking a large dose of T3 once a day is dangerous. He advised me to take a very low dose of T3 (starting on 10mcg and slowly building to 30mcg) 4 times a day. He advised me to check my temperature and heart rate daily. If I got palpitations I was to contact him immediately. The first week I felt great and then I started feeling tired again. MAfter 6 weeks I went back to him for review and he added in 30mg of NDT (half a grain). So I take 10mcg T3 an hour or half an hour before I get up, 10mcg 4 hours later, 10 mcg 4 hours after that and half a grain of Armour 4 hours after that. It is very important to split the doses of T3 because of the short half life. My doctor may take me off T3 or decrease the dose in relation to NDT depending on my test results.

Here is a link to the CT3M

stopthethyroidmadness.com/t...

Paul Robinson is a computer scientist who regained his health on CT3M. He kept in regular contact with his doctor while doing this.

recoveringwitht3.com/

Having said that most doctors seem to be happier prescribing T4 only or NDT at a push.

[Elle70]

"I now believe anyone who is anaemic SHOULD NOT take iron"

Please explain. Have you any sources for this information and for your information on not taking vitamins?

I agree that the best source of Vitamin D comes from sunshine. This isn't easy when you live in Ireland or the UK where sunshine is rare. Also people spend most daylight hours indoors during the winter working so getting sunlight is impossible several months a year. I take Vitamin D3 most of the year for this reason.

I take Spatone iron which comes from spring water naturally fortified with iron.

[LAHs in reply to Elle70]

Elle you raise a couple of very good points.

I have very recently been trying to raise my Ferritin via food. I have eaten steak twice a week and minced (grass fed) beef in spaghetti sauce twice a week - my results, feeble ferritin. I raised my vitC intake by eating half an orange every day (to raise absorption of the iron) and by having salad for my lunch everyday, again my result was feeble ferritin level (36 (22-291) ng/mL).

Regarding vit D. A couple of years ago I worked outdoors on a job site for six months in the Californian sun, in shorts, short sleeves and no hat (yes that was stupid, I don't usually do that). I just coincidently happened to have a blood test due just after the job finished, in September. My vitamin D turned up LOW!! Sunshine vitamin, really?

[Angus1]

Just remember we are trying to help you, I feel well on 140mcg's of T3, maybe worth listening to people who are successful in there own treatment. Another thing I have learned after being hypothyroid for 15 years is everyone is different and quite often what works for one may not work for another, definitely worth listening to them. 500 mcg's is a quote from the late Dr Lowe in the context some with extream thyroid resistance need up to 500 mcg's but most people need between 50 and 150 mcg's. Dr Lowe's ideal dose was 150 mcg's taken at midnight.

[Angus1]

CT3M is a term Paul Robinson made up as he was referring to the Circadian rhythm method of taking T3, he refers to it so often he shortened it to CT3M. For your own benefit maybe worth reading it. Medicine is an inexact science in particular when it comes to cellular function, remember the medical system is a for profit business and doctors can be exposed to professional ridicule, some treatment for disease are pushed on us for the profits that the Pharmacutical companies can make out of it not what is in the best interest of our health.

Have you ever wondered when life is going well ie your not stressed, how your brain works so much better and you have more energy and your not irritable the answer I can tell you for myself is inadequate T3, most people with hypothyroidism have been through this just like what your going through, in my opinion and many others who have researched and taken T3 and that includes Dr Lowe and Paul Robinson improved there quality of life from 0/10 to above 5/10.

I don't want to get in an argument I am relaying information on that may help you.

I wished I had known of Dr Lowe in particular 15 years ago.

[Clutter in reply to Angus1]

Angus1, If you and Girlscout2 wish to continue this debate please feel free to start your own thread but take it off MoaningLisa's post.

[LAHs in reply to Angus1]

Angus, thank you so much for explaining what CT3m is! I was about to post a request for what it means since there was so much discussion about it.

Guys, if you want to use an abbreviation, the rule is to first use the full form with the abbreviation in brackets afterwards. e.g. Total Thyroidectomy (TT).

You then never have to spell the full term out again.

[Clutter]

Girlscout2, MoaningLisa asked what the NDT equivalent dose of 60mcg T3 is not views on T3 only.

If you and others want to continue debating the pros and cons of T3 only perhaps you could start a separate thread to do so. Please bear in mind that some patients don't tolerate any amount of thyroxine in synthetic T4 or NDT, and for them T3 may well be a life saver.

[Girlscout2 in reply to Clutter]

Understood. However, I don't agree her doctor was correct, nor that a large proportion of patients who are told they don't tolerate T4 in actual fact don't tolerate it. For the reasons I have stated. That's why i weighed in on this post.

I also don't agree with the whole CT3M thing, which is a factor in this post and might be why the lady is feeling so bad ... I will have to PM you with what I know ... it's not good!

She said that her doc put her on T3 only because of RT3 .... again I don't agree her doctor was correct, as I don't believe the RT3 argument is correct. For sure it could be indicating things need looking at, but not for the reasons the whole 'blocked receptor' crowd claim, which is the big push for T3 only. I believe T3 only is particularly damaging to women, this is the best summary I've found explaining why tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html .

Like I said, I'm pretty much done with online thyroid discussions, and generally just skim them these days and don't weigh in as it's very hard to try and speak up against what appears to have become gospel in thyroid circles - I can't stop the bad advice, but having been a victim (I mean seriously damaged) by bad if well intentioned advice online, I do feel a responsibility to try and warn people.

And thanks for weighing in on the 500mcg thing!

xx

[Clutter]

Girlscout2, it is an interesting debate, I agree with some but not all you've said, but its not relevant to MoaningLisa's question which is why I suggest you start your own thread to continue the discussion.

[Clutter]

Only replies directly answer MoaningLisa's question will be permitted. Off topic replies will be removed.

[LAHs]

OK, didn't mean to upset you.

You say you are on NDT, which one? I used Armour and Levo because Levo and it's doses is pretty widely known.

You mention you take 152 and 36, what are the units?

4 grains is a colossal dose, I would tell you the approximate equivalent of Levo if you were interested, and you would be shocked, but you do not believe in equivalents. If you had thought about equivalent doses you would not have started at the frighteningly high dose of 6 grains, that was quite a risk, I'm glad you made it.