Told to lower armour dose

[Jodypody]

Told to lower dose of Armour over the phone today from 2 grains to one but when I asked for results (t3, as that's what out of range) I got nothing just told it looks like I'm overmedicated. I don't have one single symptom. Not lost weight, no anxiety, jitters or insomnia. Sleeping like a baby now temp is around 36.5-36.7 so that's good and my digestive system is improving no end (not bunged up). I presume I'll have a few responses to say this is normal procedure. No doubt it's been based on TSH alone. Let battle commence 👍👍😀😀

[shaws Administrator]

The 'Battle' has commenced as they have only taken notice of your TSH level. I would ignore it as your symptoms seem good and improving.

I would go by my symptoms and the doctors/endos are mistaken if they think TSH will lead to heart attacks or osteoporosis. In fact being on thyroid hormones protect our heart and bones but don't let them know that, of course, as we wouldn't want to disappoint them when nothing untoward happens if you keep to your dose.

2 grains is an average dose. 'Looks like' an overdose isn't an overdose. Because the patient would know full well they have taken an overdose and reduce or miss next day's dose. This link is informative but it's main issue is that we are given too low a dose of hormones.

web.archive.org/web/2010073...

hormonerestoration.com/Thyr...

hypothyroidmom.com/is-your-...

Read first and second question/answer on this link.

web.archive.org/web/2010103...

[Jodypody in reply to shaws]

I've asked for a copy by email or I'll collect. There's no way I'm overdosed, I'd know. I was half expecting an increase if anything. I'll get the results and then I'll know. In the meantime I have 90 days worth on order of 2 grain so guess I'll be ok for a while anyway 😃

[shaws Administrator in reply to Jodypody]

Yes jodypody, you'll be o.k. At least now we are able to ask questions if in doubt about any decisions regarding our doses. I think we instinctively know somethings amiss when they make statements like you've had.

[Jodypody in reply to shaws]

My blood results came back and yes at 6.9 for T3 and 14.4 for T4 it looks like I'm hyper on paper but, they insisted I have the test on a day Id taken my armour and was 4 in the afternoon! Should I insist on a retest

[asmile4u in reply to Jodypody]

Yes, you should not take your Armour before testing. It will mess up the results. No wonder you are reading hyper.

[Clutter]

Jody, It can't be based on TSH only if they've told you FT3 is over range. It is very possible to have over range FT3 without feeling at all overstimulated. It's pretty much universally accepted that FT3 should remain within range and going over means overmedication. Advising you to halve dose is a big reduction though.

[Jodypody in reply to Clutter]

I will hang on and get the results. You can bet your bottom dollar t3 wasn't done and it was based on TSH alone. Funny how all has gone quiet their end when I requested my T3 number. God bless the NHS.

[Jodypody in reply to Clutter]

What are the chances of me going from 3.4 to over range within 6 weeks of taking 2 grains?

[Clutter in reply to Jodypody]

Jody, quite good I'd say as you went from 75mcg T4 to the bioactive equivalent of 150-200mcg which contains 18mcg T3.

[Jodypody in reply to Clutter]

Oh right. I will take your word for it then. Flies in the face of treating people based in symptoms though. X

[Clutter in reply to Jodypody]

Jody, you'll have your results soon, so if FT3 is high as you said in your OP you'll see for yourself and won't need to take my word for it.

STTM et al say dose until symptoms resolve but hold at 3 grains for 4 weeks and test to check levels aren't over range before increasing further. I've always thought 3 grains is too high and 2 grains would be more appropriate.

[Jodypody in reply to Clutter]

I'm on two x

[greygoose in reply to Clutter]

I was on six grains. It's how you feel that counts. Really, Clutter, I thought you knew better than that! You talk like an endo!

[Clutter in reply to greygoose]

GG, That's below the belt!

Reducing T3 to drop my FT3 back into range didn't make me feel hypo. If it had I would probably have resumed the higher dose but I accept there may be trade offs between feeling well today and adverse health events like AF and osteoporosis in the future.

I advise more cautiously than you and won't be changing that. You can follow up with your advice and members can make their own decision based on all the advice they read.

[greygoose in reply to Clutter]

You can waste your life away being cautious. But it's not going to kill you if you go half a grain over-dose. You can easily cut back again. I'm not advocating increasing by half a grain every day. 2 grains is a very conservative dose for most people. (example only).

Jodypody said she didn't feel hyper. In fact, she still can't lose weight. So my guess is, she's still Under-dosed no matter what the labs say. She'd soon know if she was over the limit.

[Jodypody in reply to Clutter]

I can't help but think it was high because Id taken my armour that day. The doc said it did t matter and wanted me to do the test. I may continue 2 grains then test at the right time on no meds in 3 weeks. I'm unlikely to suffer from osteoporosis as I lift heavy weights and ha e done for the last 15 years. (46yrs old now).

[greygoose in reply to Jodypody]

Yes, they always say that! It's because they just have no idea! But it does make a huge difference. In my opinion it's unethical to insist a person lower their dose based on a blood test taken just after taking thyroid hormone. If I were you, I'd stay on 2 grains.

[Jodypody in reply to greygoose]

I was thinking of emailing the doc and requesting a retest without meds. I would also outline my reasoning for this. I'm very mindful of the fact I'm ine of the lucky ones to be given NDT on NHS and I understand he has parameters to work within. What do you think?

[greygoose in reply to Jodypody]

Didn't you say your next test is in two weeks time? Or am I muddling you with someone else? If that's the case, then I would wait til then, whilst continuing on 2 grains.

Even with a test taken after taking your NDT, and late in the day, you still aren't over range. TSH is a useless test, as we all know, but even the FT4 and FT3 were designed to monitor someone on synthetic T4, not someone on NDT.

And, in any case, all this talk of osteoporosis and AF is just scaremongering. They have absolutely no proof of that. All the research I've seen just says it's a 'possibility'. Well, it's a possiblility that pigs might fly if you put them in an aeroplane. I would want a lot more proof than that before I conformed to conventional blood tests.

But if you Don't have more tests planned anytime soon, you could always try emailing for another test. But, to be honest, I very much doubt the endo would take any notice of your reasons for doing so. He doesn't appear to be very well versed in thyroid!

[greygoose in reply to Clutter]

Accepted by whom? I've had my T3 over-range for years, with no ill effects. The ranges are just a guide and it is impossible to say that over a certain figure you are over-dosed, and on that figure you're ok. It just isn't logical and we're all different, we all need different levels. And saying that it's very possible to have an over-range FT3 without feeling at all overstimulated and yet it's bad for you, is just a nonsense. So, if, according to you, your FT3 is over-range, but you're still hypo, then it's too bad for you, suffer?!? Doesn't make any sense at all. Dosing for hypo is not an exact science, it's an art. And as with all arts, we have to have a little licence.

[Clutter in reply to greygoose]

GG, accepted by the medical profession and most thyroid fora. Jody hasn't said she is still hypo on her current dose and reducing to get FT3 into the range doesn't mean she will become hypo. Her FT3 has built up and most people feel well with FT3 high within range. If she does feel hypo on a lower dose she can weigh up the pros and cons of wellbeing now versus future impact on health.

[greygoose in reply to Clutter]

Well, you know what I think of the medical profession! They're only happy when you're ill and taking loads of drugs to treat the symptoms.

And where do most forums get their information? It's a pity Dr Lowe never told us what his FT3 was on 150 T3...

No, she didn't say she felt hypo, but she didn't say she felt hyper, either.

[faith63 in reply to greygoose]

I agree GG..the last forum i was on went strictly by labs and always told everyone to consult their doctor. The were totally mainstream and didn't believe in ndt or self medicating, in order to save your life. I left the forum do to their reliance on labs.

[greygoose in reply to faith63]

Yes, I've been on forums like that!

[Jodypody]

How many times can I recommend that reply x?

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK]

Thyroid medicine is absolutely not like taking one paracetamol for mild headache and two for a stinker. The idea of slashing your medicine in half is grossly wrong-headed.

There are only rare exceptions to the rule that changes should be made slowly. They include thyroid storm and myxoedema coma - but you sound to be so many miles away from either of them that small, incremental changes are the only way to go. If, indeed,any change at all is indicated.

[Jodypody in reply to helvella]

I'll let you know but my betting is that they've only tested standard Tsh and t4.

[Jodypody]

Exacta mondo. Remember I am being treated by the NHS. Only so far they'll go before pushing the panic button. I lift weights for osteoporosis and do HIIT training for my heart health. I can't do much more patient compliance

[Glynisrose]

NEVER lower your dosage by blood results alone!! Go by how you FEEL not numbers!!

[Treepie]

Handbags at three paces.

[Jackie]

Hi You need tSH, T4 and free T3 to know. It is possible to be hyper ie overdosed and have the same symptoms as under dosed.

Jackie

[Jodypody in reply to Jackie]

I have no symptoms either way. Only improvement. I haven't lost weight, I sleep like a baby and I'm not jittery. My temp is now near human 👍

[Jackie in reply to Jodypody]

HI certainly sounds as if it does not apply to you.

Jackie

[Jodypody]

Just got the results. TSH 0.03 T4 14.2 and T3 6.9. So on reflection it looks like they might be right. The test however was done at 4pm and I had taken my meds that morning. What do we think?

[greygoose in reply to Jodypody]

I think that would make a huge difference! What was the range for the FT3?

[Jodypody in reply to greygoose]

It was up to 6 and I was 6.9.

[greygoose in reply to Jodypody]

Well, that's not over-range, that's just nice. I can't see any reason why you should reduce if you Don't want to.

[sorrel89]

Hi, I have just read this thread. What were the reference ranges please? You took the meds before the blood test, this will always elevate your FT3 levels!

[Jodypody in reply to sorrel89]

3.7/6.0 for T3 and 4 is 7.8/14.4 tsh .3/5.5

[Clutter in reply to Jodypody]

Jody, you aren't significantly above FT3 range and it is possible FT3 was slightly elevated by taking NDT during the morning although T3 should have stopped peaking after 6 hours. If you can get a retest in a few weeks there's no need to reduce dose now. If you do reduce dose 1 grain is too much, quarter or half should be enough.

[Jodypody in reply to Clutter]

I remember speaking to you coming up through the grains and I really struggled on 1. Palpitations anxiety and insomnia. I can't afford to not sleep. X

[faith63 in reply to Jodypody]

You had taken your meds before the test and you are improving. I would really not put so much importance on labs. You are getting your life back.

[sorrel89]

Jody, I am writing this on my phone so am unable to put links on but it is very important not to take your NDT before a blood test. It will skew your results particularly the FT3 reading and this is most likely to have been done in your case. Some people leave 12/24 hours without taking meds before a blood test. Doctors do not seem to understand the importance of this. If you feel good on 2 grains stay with it. Halving your dose will really set you back. Dr Bayliss wrote in his book The Thyroid- the facts "Do not take any thyroxine on the day when you go for your check-up and have a blood sample taken. The reason for this is that for about 4 hours after ingesting a tablet of thyroxine, the blood level of thyroxine peaks and will give a spuriously high reading".

[Jodypody]

I was going to ask for a retest, fasting morning and on no meds. What do you think? Alternatively completely ignore them stay on 2 grsins and retest in 4 weeks in the correct way not at 4pm on a day I e already taken my armour. Stupid as it sounds this has really knocked my confidence

[faith63]

I totally agree with Grey Goose and Shaws..if you can't lose weight with diet and exercise, then you are still undermedicated, regardless of labs. It is what is happening in the cells that count. Doctors don't know this and would rather leave us ill. They are more concerned about not getting into legal trouble. The labs are not very useful once meds have been started, with ndt you go by symptoms, t3 also. Dr. Lowe found that they didn't correlate with symptoms at all. Doctors don't really care much about symptoms, just labs. And this one wants you to cut your dose in half. Once the doctors notice your suppressed TSH, then they will say you are overmedicated regardless of the free's..mine said so. Please read Shaws Links!