Is there any way to image NATUROPATHI... - Prostate Cancer N...

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Is there any way to image NATUROPATHIC SUCCESS?

sm60 profile image

I've got a couple other posts here describing my naturopathic regimen, and I have yet to have anything done to me that is not natural. I've been told I can not cure PC with herbals, vitamins and diet, but have dropped my PSA from 20.3 to 16.0. (I've also dropped my weight from 245 to 218--all in four months.)

I recently submitted to these barbaric random biopsies due mostly to family pressures, because my urologist here in northern Maine steadfastly refused to move to the 21st century and do imaging first. That came back positive with some 6 and 7 Gleasons, and one 9.

I am trying to get a quality imaging done--if I continue to use Western Medicine at all-- and hope to be able to afford Pylarify in Mass., at some point in the near future.

My question is this: Is there any way that imaging can measure my naturopathic success?...i.e. can they see cancer cells in various stages of apoptosis, etc.? So far, my questions to my local hospital have pretty much been met with blank stares.

I am willing to consider using BOTH naturopathy and some of the less invasive Western stuff, if I can be convinced that there are things that will help me without making me incontinent or a eunuch. BUT, I am not willing to go forward with anything more on the Western side if they can't even credit/acknowledge or SEE what I am doing. I do not want to be treated as a "9 Gleason," if I am well on my way to curing myself.

It's a quandary. Any help ?

Thanks!

50 Replies

Hello?

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to sm60

Hello is right. 12 hours since you posted. Why would anyone comment when you obviously in your angry at the world mind have all the answers.

Do you have a spouse or people in your life who care about you?

You are on a selfish world be damned path. Pretty self-righteous to say the least.

PSA 20 to 16 and gleason 9 with no medical intervention? Your cancer is festering like an ember thrown on a pile of wood. I venture that in 6 months or less your Alk Phos will be up and you will begin to feel some minor pain.

Apoptosis you wish dude. Curing yourself you say. If that statement wasn’t so sad, I would be laughing.

The compassionate side of my brain says please seek medical intervention. The other side of my brain because of your indignance says good luck gonzo; you are on your own.

LOL here I am anyway. PSA is not prostate cancer. Many "natural drugs" mask PSA. Gleason 9 is serious stuff.

GL9 with 6 and 7 ???? You did get a 2nd opinion, right????? I'm all for "DIY" when it comes to mechanical but with MY BODY, I prefer superior brain cells than mine.

Tall_Allen 5 hours ago wrote " ... PSA is not prostate cancer. Many "natural drugs" mask PSA. Gleason 9 is serious stuff... "

Your PSA coming down could actually be meaningless, r.e. PCa!!!

Good Luck

sm60 wrote --- "Does ANYONE have anything to share here REGARDING THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD?... "

I just reviewed info r.e. *naturopathy* and in answer to your question ---

NOPE, sorry I can't help but again

GOOD LUCK 👍👍 and post as to how things go. TIA

Well , your obvious distain for modern medicine won’t get you much love here, but you had to have known that. I’d say try softening your stance a little, but that would be disingenuous I suppose.

As for your efforts to heal yourself, one thing stands out in particular; bragging about losing 25 lbs in a 4 month period, especially at 245. This could mean the beginning of a life transformation, or it could mean you’re a dieter. Dieters are fat most of the time despite occasional quick and significant weight loss.

Considering the risk you’re taking with your disease, I would take a honest look at that.

I’m not saying you’re a dieter, but I am saying that rapid weight loss in a otherwise ‘healthy’ person is usually fleeting. Boasting about this is always suspect.

Again, please refrain from posting in this thread if you can not address the question posed in the subject line. Thank you.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to sm60

Okay.

No.

You’re asking if conventional medicine will measure naturopathy for you, or rather if we, a group of laymen, think it can.

What you actually want is for conventional medicine to co-sign it, which is understandable.

Don’t worry, if you try hard enough you’ll get the answers you want to hear.

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to London441

hmmm...ok.

Steve Jobs tried to treat his (pancreatic) cancer with home remedies. After no success he turned to more recognized medical procedures but the lost couple years allowed the cancer to win. Gleason 9. Your choice of course but the cancer is going to win if you don’t let a good physician get to work with modern science based procedures. Your choice.

My thoughts exactly! I’m sure we all wish you the best of Luck. Please keep us posted on your progress…

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to Dont08759

Will do. (As long as I'm still allowed to post.)

Hey sm60,

Gleason 9? The first thing you should do is get the very best imaging from someone such as Dr. Busch in Atlanta, Georgia. Is your cancer confined within your prostate's capsule or are there extracapsular extensions?

You cannot expect success of any type if you do not know what your status is. Is your cancer a tumor such as an early T1c that can be viewed or in more advanced stages?

Once you know what your situation is as diagnosed by someone like Dr. Busch then their advice should be seriously taken.

I take many natural supplements but I also had a treatment because it was necessary.

I have made lifestyle changes and take supplements to prevent recurrence.

Read about Dr. Ruth Heidrich. She was lucky and highly disciplined. She also had, I believe, a double mastectomy as her first treatment.

Again, I believe in a treatment if necessary followed by lifestyle changes and supplements.

One can have some inconvenience for a time after some treatments for prostate cancer but you can also live many quality years if you make the right decisions early enough.

Your diagnosis certainly places you in a difficult place. The sooner you find the status of your cancer the better. Early treatment has greater long term success.

Currumpaw

I would say , don't stop with Naturopathy. It's one of many valuable tools. Take a look at Donnie Yance's books, among them- Adaptogens and Herbal Medicine, Healing and Cancer. Many of the Naturopaths seem to place what they do as an adjuvant to S.O.C.. Seek out the best medical knowledge you can find. If you're not too far from Boston- there are centers of excellence there. Send your biopsies down to Johns Hopkins for a second opinion. Get a multi parametric MRI, at least a bone scan. Hopefully PSMA scans will be have a geographic distribution beyond California soon(if you can make it out to UCLA, get one of those now.)

Gather as much information as possible, everyone's cancer is actually different- there can be complete genetic heterogeneity across all the cells in one tumor! By all means take the supplements, get excercise, eat wisely.

You don't have to follow any treatment path that doesn't make sense to you, but try to make that decision from a place of being informed. Explore all of the treatment options out there.

And while PSA is not precisely Pca, it is one of the best indicators we have for what the cancer is doing- So congrats on driving it down a few points- at least it's not on it's way to doubling.

You need to see a doctor immediately and get treatment quickly. Gleason 9 is very serious and likely is spreading outside your prostate now. Time is critical. Losing weight and some dietary change will likely have trimmed your PSA but that's a one-off bonus, it won't keep going down. I find it disappointing that they won't do imaging combined with biopsy (fusion) but that doesn't change the fact that you now know you have Gleason 9. You either need prostatectomy or urgent radiation treatment. The longer you leave it, the worse it will get, and likely you will shorten your remaining lifetime.

You probably already know the answer to your original question...you could track the size of the local lesions by periodically having MRIs and you could monitor any distant mets that may exist with PET scans. However, there is probably a limit as to how many scans your insurance will fund.

With Gleason 9, I'd take some of the comments on this thread seriously and not rely on a naturopathic approach exclusively. Getting an MRI with someone like Joseph Busch in Atlanta would be useful. He could recommend possible treatments. You may qualify for brachytherapy or a focal treatment.

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to Daveofnj

Thank you for addressing the question I posed. That's not quite what I was hoping to hear, though. I was wondering if slides from the biospy (or future imaging) could SEE ongoing cell death. Thanks!

A scan is a scan is a scan .....

You establish a baseline - then you get re-scanned at a later date .....

hi sm 60 ... i have both a naturopath and an oncologist managing my condition ... and ... i had a 3T mp MRI done ... perhaps consider checking-out these websites ... sperlingprostatecenter.com ... drgeo.com ... envita.com ... i also wanted to add that ... a way to lose weight almost effortlessly and is also a very positive thing to do for prostate cancer is to become a vegan ... i did and in less than a year, went from 210 lbs. to 165 lbs. ... best wishes ... Nous

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to Nous

Thanks. I'm down to 218 from 244, and am just doing it with a low-carb diet. I'l check out those links. I appreciate it!

Nous profile image
Nous in reply to sm60

you're welcome sm60 ... way to go re your weight loss ! :)

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to sm60

216 this morning, with a goal of 185.

I was diagnosed with Pca almost 4 years ago, as my PSA moved above 6. A biopsy resulted in a Gleason of 7. I tried to go the route of active surveillance and naturopathic. I have found naturopathic to be helpful in general health and some other minor ailments over the years. Also, I have always been skeptical of our medical system here in the US.

I tried a variety of naturopathic treatments, which may have been helpful in preventing spread of the cancer and helpful in maintaining overall good health. However, they were ultimately a waste of my time, energy, and money. I still take supplements such as Saw Palmetto, Stinging Nettle, Pomegranate, graviola, etc to help with urinary flow and symptoms of prostatitis, but nothing really stopped the advance of the PSA and the growing threat from the Pca. Immunotherapy through naturopathy might have benefits on other cancers but it doesn't seem to do anything for prostate cancer.

I had PSA tests every 3 months. I even had a period where PSA dropped from around 17 to 13, but it didn't last. I also dropped weight, 220 down to 190, but that did not last. In the Autumn of 2020, my PSA jumped above 20.

In Jan. 2021 I started an 18-month program of Lupron ADT, and in April I started 40 sessions of radiation. It has not been easy. the final week of radiation I got very sick; I think it was a severe bout of radiation fatigue - still not sure exactly. The ADT is quite unpleasant - lots of fatigue, lack of motivation, lack of mental clarity, weight gain combined with muscle loss, plus a few other nasties. Still, my PSA is now less than 0.1 and testosterone is basically undetectable. My oncologists say this is very good news.

I can't say what course of treatment is right for you. I have talked with people who opted for surgery - most say it worked great; a few told me about complications. I opted for radiation/ADT and it has not been easy but it looks like it is working. I talked to many people who tried naturopathy and I have heard stories of success but I have never actually met/talked with anyone who successfully beat Pca with naturopathic remedies alone.

I use this analogy, comparing the cancer to a deadly, venomous snake that had entered my home. For 3 years I tried naturopathy to get rid of the snake, and I managed to avoid a snake bite, but the snake just grew bigger and meaner. There was tremendous anxiety for me and my family, having that snake in the house. I did not fully realize the pain this created for my wife. Finally I called in the doctors - they hit me with some very powerful poisons, driving the snake out of the house, even though the poisons used have been difficult for me to handle. For now, it is gone, and as I try to gather my strength, we are making plans for the rest of our lives.

My grandfather died of Pca at age 92. My father died of Pca at age 86. I am 64. If I can get another 20 or 30 years (or whatever time I am granted), I do not care if it comes from Big Pharma or from Mother Nature. I start each day with a prayer of gratitude for the blessing of another beautiful day.

I hope you find the blessing of many more days as well. Good luck.

FYI...all.... My brother, who alerted me to the need to get going on things this Spring because he was diagnosed with a "very aggressive" PC tumor, has been going the all-natural route with the help of a clinic in Mexico. He was there for three weeks a couple months ago (he's two years younger than my 60,) and went back yesterday for a checkup.

He just wrote me this:

Just concluded with the doctor at H4C. Overall he was very pleased with my progress. He said I came with the most aggressive form of PC there is but that is not the case with my cancer anymore. He said it is not aggressive at all anymore and that it is dying. It still has a tiny blood supply but that the overall size of the tumor is smaller and the overall size of my prostate, which was enlarged and malformed, is now normal.

My labs were almost entirely better. These are some of the comparisons:

PSA now: 8.2 was 9.9, Range < 4

% Free PSA now: 7, was 1.6, Range > 25

Vit D now, 104, was 46, Range 80-100

Glucose now, 101, was 128, Range 75-110

Total Cholesterol now, 191, was 237, Range < 200

Dehydrogenase now, 211, was 311, Range 120-246

All of my other labs were normal or better. The big thing he wants me to do is exercise more. I've been horrible at this but he says it's really important with prostate cancer to do 50 mins of cardio, 3X a week and 20 mins of weights a week. Muscle mass is important, he says. He is upping my dose of SP activate because of my size and keeping me on the IV GCMAF. He was adding Lugol at 3 drops a day but I told him I was already doing 5.

He wants me to continue TCM - blue scorpion venom. I'll see if I can get you some. He wants me to add 4 grams of Resveratrol which I can get from TerraKeys. He also wants me to add 10 MG a day of Serrato Peptidase, whatever that is.

I still have some inflammation but not as much as I did when I was here last. I still have some issues with my thyroid. He also wants me to continue with the Metformin for another 3 months. All in all he said I am in a far better place today than where I was when I left here 3.5 months ago. PTL>

==========

P.S. I immediately began mimicking most of what he is doing, and he is helping me mimick the regimen at home (without spending the $50k he's already spent) and am having GOOD results here.

I just want to add that those who claim natural therapies can't work are misguided, shills for big pharma, or BOTH.

To answer your question, no there is no imaging technology available to measure naturopathy success in respect of prostate cancer, since there hasn’t been any validated case of naturopathy curing medically diagnosed prostate cancer.

Imaging is available of failure in this regard, i.e. funerals!

I appreciate your abhorrence of western medicine, indeed I share it, I too find the idea of surgery, radiation, chemical castration and chemotherapy as a barbaric way to treat the human body.

Unfortunately we have no better way yet to treat prostate cancer and when treated in its early stages can be cured.

When diagnosed, I chose treatment from what was available and proven to work, to continue with life.

Barbarism is better than death, I can fully attest to that.

Some people are afraid to live, especially if their life view is threatened.

I wish the best for you, I fear that you’ll be in dire need of it and more once it dawns on you that you are not curing yourself, just reducing your chances of a decent future and bringing forward your end of life.

That will hurt.

Hugh

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to Aodh

We DO have better ways to treat. I just gave proof.

Aodh profile image
Aodh in reply to sm60

That’s not proof, it’s anecdotal; with a sample of 1. Once again best wishes

Londinium profile image
Londinium in reply to Aodh

Anecdotal was once referred to as "Case History". And there are many, many positive anecdotal Case Histories.

Aodh profile image
Aodh in reply to Londinium

And sadly there are many, many dead from improperly treated cancer. There are many, many snake oil salespeople too. There are many, many of everything, if only the dead could talk!

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to Aodh

Ah...but you implied there were none, and now seem to be allowing that there HAVE BEEN many successfully treated, naturally. Can't have it both ways.

Aodh profile image
Aodh in reply to sm60

There are no documented cures of prostate cancer via naturopathy alone that have been verified by the recognised medical doctors.

Believe what you want, you will anyway.

You have my sympathy and best wishes AND I did answer your thread question.

I wasn’t expecting thanks and didn’t receive any.

Case closed.

Londinium profile image
Londinium in reply to Aodh

There are also "many, many dead" from what you would define as "properly treated cancer". I personally know of people who accepted the recommended conventional treatment and they died. My neighbour was given 12 mths to live unless she accepted their recommended chemo protocol, despite the fact that they said it would not save her life. She accepted their chemo protocol because, as she told me, "they're the experts". She had no inclinication to do any research or to seek a second opinion from another hospital. As soon as she began their recommended chemo, she rapidly went downhill and died weeks later. So the chemo significantly shortened her 12 mths lifespan.

On the other hand, I know of two people with brain cancer, each was given months to live. I've met and spoken to one of them. Despite both of them being given months to live, they chose to go a different route, a non-conventional route... and 7-8 yrs later they are both very much alive.

Each person should be free to consider, for themselves, what method/route they want to try... for better or for worse.

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to Londinium

Excellent reply! Thanks!

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to sm60

But gee golly Mr. sm60. They didn’t answer your question about scanning. I thought anyone with a comment that doesn’t answer your question is full of BS and to be banned from your thread.

DR GOOGLE AND PROFESSOR YOU TUBE

I think all here would have preferred naturopathy like you SM, but it’s just not there, it’s not perfected enough yet for handling this , so that means hedge your bets , play all your cards , use all your tools to fight this one, it has taken far too many of us already, Even the Steve McQueen tried like hell to go entirely your way and lost with his cancer . So unless you and your brother are all done here on Earth , and want to go back on the ‘other side’ quick, (where you came from,btw) get ALL your options that we are talking about medically going NOW, and damn it , get another urologist, have your brother come , and get him an appt as well and some valid tests with the same one. Time is not on your side anymore, and Tall Allen is a great guy that helps everyone , so listen to him! Take care SM times’a tickin’ man

I have a cabinet full of supplements and tried for a few years to control a rising psa with nutrients, exercise and diet and what I suspected from family history to be developing pc. I already had a good diet eating mostly organic food, little meat, was thin and fit (6 ft 160lbs) so there was little dramatic lifestyle change I could make. I agreed to an mri guided biopsy and had 3+4 favorable intermediate PC that was confined to the gland. I doubled down on my lifestyle and supplements, read everything I could, saw five uro/rad/Onc practioners and an Ayurvedic one for good measure. I decided SBRT was the best option for my cancer and for me.

I won’t begin to criticize your choice. If there was a single practitioner, who was honest about the work they did and what others offer, a good choice might be easy. They know what they know and it is up to the patient to make a choice about something they never wanted to know about. All treatments suck, in terms of time, pain or money and this one seemed to suck the least. I think western medicine has it wrong a lot, and I continue to take supplements, which are also western drugs at the concentrations they are. However, after 2 1/2 years, with no lingering SE’s, retained sexual function and a psa below .5 and still falling, I am at peace with accepting a treatment option that in 20 years may also seem barbaric.

People on the forum can be brutally honest, and even mean sometimes, but they are speaking from the position of their own choice and navigation of the options handed them where they live. Many cannot afford to travel long distances and seek advice and diagnosis at multiple sites.

I decided to accept what western medicine had to offer, pursue a cure and not dwell on what if. So far so good.

God speed to you.

Thanks. Same to you.

Congratulations on having access to the cure for prostate cancer, hopefully people the world over will flock to you for it. Remember you heard it here first, folks!

Reads like you're on the road to a long, happy life. 👍

I don’t wish to disrespect your beliefs or lived experience, but I prefer to believe

gentlereformation.com/2020/...

And welcome to Prostate Cancer Network, I noticed that you just joined.

There are many wise and experienced people here.

Best wishes,

in reply to Aodh

Thanks Aodh. I totally get that when some people hear the C word, they freak out and just want it out of their bodies. I have spoken to several of them. But for me, I would like to keep the body parts God gave me and just make the cancer go away. Wisdom is one thing. Bias is another. I do not wish to disrespect your beliefs either and I know nothing I say will change your mind or vice versa. However, for those on the fence, remember what Mark Twain famously said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." I would add that there are a lot of down right dirty tricks being played out there. I will leave you with this possibility.

If I was a widget manufacturer selling my widgets for $750K each and I had a 50-year monopoly on them and someone else started making and selling a better widget for$50K to my customers and prospective customers, I might react negatively. Maybe I would start out by threatening the other widget maker by suspending his business license. Or maybe I would commission hundreds of “papers” which I ghost wrote and pay prominent widget analysts to trash my new competitor. I might contribute to political campaigns and even use my massive lobbying network to pass laws in the states and in DC outlawing the processes my opponent was using to make the better, cheaper widget. Now if I got really nervous and this guy wouldn’t go away, maybe I would put former board members of my company or friends of mine to serve in places like the NIH or the NCCN to develop and enforce standards that only allowed my manufacturing process. Maybe I would threaten the new widget maker’s customers by stripping their credentials if they didn’t stop buying from the other guy. I might even have them arrested and thrown in jail. Since I am responsible for 60% of all advertising, I might even be able to use the mainstream media to go into full spin mode in my favor trashing anyone who challenged my status quo. I might even pay people to blog for me or use big tech to do my bidding. What do you think? Could this REALLY happen in America?

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to

Excellent~~~!!! A voice of reason in our Big Pharma Clown World.

Sorry to hear that. 🖖🏻

in reply to Londinium

Thanks. It happened before we met, second wife. Bile duct cancer runs in her family. It took her granddad, her dad and her uncle. Western medicine, at the time, not sure if this is still the case, had no cured for bile duct cancer. My wife, before we met, was concerned she might get it also so she found a Homeopathic doctor in eastern medicine to help. As they were meeting, she started presenting with symptoms. He had never treated a bile duct cancer case but had helped hundreds with other chronic illnesses. Understanding that 95% of all illness originates in the gut and that up to 70% of the immune system is also found in the gut, he started her on a series of colonics and probiotics. She then did a series of liver cleanses and took a ton of supplements he recommended. She eventually passed a huge worm she picked up doing orphanage work in India. It took two years, but she beat it and 9 years later, she is doing fine. So, there is hope for the "incurable."

Londinium profile image
Londinium in reply to

Amazing story. Thank you. 🖖🏻

What we ALL should fear the most are out-of-control, power-hungry, Malthusian governments and their belief in manufacturing crises in order to seize to themselves ever-increasing power, to the point of claiming they have the right to tell you what you must put in your body. For most of us, that is the far more pressing and immediate danger than slow-moving P.C.

In fact, for many of us, it may very well outstrip and RENDER MOOT any treatment plan--especially those that can not largely be undertaken at home.

Use to cycle a bit myself. Only around 150 miles a week but it was the only exercise I could do with my bad knees. Always wondered if all that biking contributed to my prostate issues?

Exercise is supposed to be good for P.C., not cause it though, right?

Yea Ric.Your scam/sham is up. Out in the open.

You are a celebrity talk radio host along the lines of Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson who has decided that the hate and vitriol on your radio show isn’t enough and you want to bring it here. Same lines in your radio show "New World Order, Malthusian governments" gets your audience behind you. Here on HU not so much enthusiasm for your style you get paid for.

I venture that you don’t even have prostate cancer.

Shame on you. You suck.

Actually, it’s pretty serious. You have no business recruiting people who call into your radio show with trash to spread to come here. Yourself included. Sham is up dude.

And advertisers that don’t mind your conspiracy trash talk and pseudoscience pay your paycheck as you whine and falsely claim others are paid by big pharma. FU.

Stick to your radio show and your brainwashed agreeable listeners and stay clear of here.

sm60 profile image
sm60 in reply to CAMPSOUPS

Wrong. So wrong ABOUT EVERYTHING, in fact, that I refuse to cast my pearls before you.

My radio show on a small AM station ended 8 years ago-- 8 years before I ever even heard of H4C.

You just enjoy your shots.

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