from the Washington Post article today. "prednisone, which is used to treat such conditions as arthritis in adults and breathing difficulties in children, appeared to result in a tenfold reduction in antibody production, regardless of the dose given if administered around the time of the vaccine.
“Right now, we’re telling them to pretend they weren’t vaccinated,” Kim said. “That is the easiest solution but it’s only a short-term one. The step beyond is: What do we do to mitigate this?”
I am going to get an antibody test today even though they say not to.. because I think if I HAVE them I will be less stressed knowing I have them than I will be stressed knowing I don't. Since I am stressed about it now!
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yogabonnie
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Yes - I heard this. There was a study carried out in USA. The presentation was posted on here recently. Quite depressing. I’m going to try to find somewhere where I can get an antibody test too. I read that it is best done 4-6 weeks after the second jab.
I don’t want a home test as likely I will make a hash of it!
we will see. If they give it to me.. in the end I dont think it is for vaccine.. but more if you think you had covid. but I assume they would be the same... but perhaps a different test.
This was discussed on the forum a couple of weeks ago, pretty sure it is a proper study, but it was preliminary and involved not many participants. They released the findings because they are important.
HOWEVER this was just published in The Guardian - a new study demonstrates that the difference between the immune responses of the immunocompromised and the healthy subjects disappears AFTER THE SECOND DOSE!
well I certainly like THAT article better!! thanks! I am more curious than ever now.. and will take the test. It is very reasonable. ($38) and at a clinic with results in 20 min. we shall see!! I also had COVID nails.... but that could be from the PMR too.
Paused using J&J temporarily due to quality control issue and the 6 women that died as a result of blood clots but for about the past week all three vaccines are being given in the US.
The test I just had yesterday ( cost $40 Cdn ) is a rapid screening test for Covid 19 ( not antibodies ) and is designed for anyone who has none of the criteria for Covid and therefore isn't eligible for regular testing. I took it out of curiosity and was -ve. We get the results in 20 minutes and, I think, maybe, this is what you are referring to.
mine was the IGg test for antibodies. and also for short term antibodies. I had the the long term. at minute clinic associated with Allina Health system I think...
Got it ! Much more useful than the one I had. It was the charge you quoted that misled me. If I had tested +ve there would have been a follow up IGg /Covid test for which there would have been no charge.
Different things I think - the pop-up tests are almost always antigen tests, showing if there is virus present, mostly live virus in enough quantity to make the test positive. Very low levels in the first few days may give a false negative and after recovery from the infection it may remain positive in response to fragments of dead virus being coughed up from the lungs, giving a false positive, The PCR test is more sensitive. Antibody tests show if you have HAD the virus and formed antibodies to it, the same as you hope for with the vaccine.
This is the test which Nova Scotians are getting at free pop-up test clinics. I've had two. Why did you have to pay? The federal gov has provided millions of these test kits to the provinces.
I have assumed from the start that, until they come out with some good figures, I am no better protected than I was pre-vaccine. I shan't be changing my behaviour at all. Because at any point as long as the infections remain high, a mutation can occur that escapes the protection afforded by the vaccines. And if and when that happens - we are back to where were were this time last year until they can develop a tweaked vaccine and, even more important. manufacture, distribute and administer it.
Actually Nova Scotia is a case study in what happens with a variant, in this case the B.1.1.7. We are relieved these days when our new case count is "only" 90. Pre-variant the "normal" count during a flare-up would be closer to 9 cases, and that worried us. We have always had really good protocol here, and most people have been compliant (there are always outriders but they are not very numerous here). Nevertheless this "wave" is taking a very long time to bring under control and the hospitals are filling up.
Your population is about double ours - and at one point we had over 800 new cases a day which was quite scary and that wasn't even the new variants. It took several weeks of lockdown to get it down and it seems to be stuck at something over 60 a day now. However - our hospitals are emptying ...
That's pretty frightening! It's considered "good news" that our recoveries are now outnumbering new cases. Hospitalisations still increasing. When the "second wave" hit a few months ago, we went into lockdown, and within a couple of days, literally, the whole thing was under control. Basically the second wave barely registered and no one died. That is the difference between standard covid and the B.1.1.7 variant where we are actually now experiencing for the first time what the rest of the world has been facing for over a year. We are such a small jurisdiction already some non-covid ICU patients have had to be moved into other hospitals further from home. It's our lack of ability to deal with a catastrophic increase which has led to the extreme caution here. We've just been informed that until new cases are back to single digits, and hopefully 85% of the population who can be vaccinated has its first doses, there will be no easing of restrictions. 😨 If we'd be counting 800 cases a day I honestly think our hospitals would be looking, to scale, at the same kind of disaster New York faced in early days. Mind you, I've no idea how many of the cases being counted are asymptomatic or mild, because there's so much testing going on. Probably the hospital numbers are more significant and those have been worrying.
I don't think we got to the ICUs being full here - but all that required anaesthesiologists to do like the Pain Clinic was cancelled. I think a couple were sent to Austria, probably Innsbruck - not as many as last time though. The really scary bit this last time was that they were catching almost as many assymptomatic cases with the mass random testing as they were with people with symptoms - showing just how dangerous the mild cases are.
Exactly. The "pop-up" test site across the street at my public library has been there every day for a few weeks now. The library is closed, of course, but they funnel people through from one fire door to another. I've been there twice. Very efficient. Mostly volunteers staffing it. They don't publicly release numbers of presumptive positives from this testing, only the ones which are confirmed through the regular tests - to which presumptive cases are referred. It would be interesting to know how many are caught by the asymptomatic testing. About ten days ago the labs were overrun with tests and it took several days to clear up the backlog, so it's entirely possible if all those cases had been tabulated on the day they were actually done we'd have a had a day of close to 800. There were several days with over 200 and the rest until recently still in 3 figures. There have also been three people who died at home, one of which a person who didn't know they had covid. As a result of this they are no longer charging people for ambulance rides. About time. Most of the cases are concentrated in the municipality where I live, the capital city, with a population of about 430,000.
The online paper has a continuing article where they change the numbers and nothing else but it always says PCR tests done, antigen tests done, and positives for each. I assume all the antigen +ves are then checked with a PCR but won't be on the same day
Oh yes, they do tell us how many antigen tests were done, but not the number of those which are presumed positive. I think for a while most of the confirmed positives were first detected this way, showing how much community spread had been occurring. Serves us right - this all started a few weeks after our new Premier decided we should relax a number of restrictions. An object lesson for everyone else who thinks it's now safe to open up - with the variants it really isn't, even with high vaccination numbers. We can get a bit more relaxed, maybe like Nova Scotia was for so many months, but then there is that step too far....
I get the impression that regions/countries that didn't have it too badly last year got cocky - and our region was one, insisting on going a "special way" when Rome wanted to get tighter. But they haven't learned - look at England now.
Yes. And it was very interesting at the covid briefing where the lifting of restrictions was announced, our chief med officer stated that he was very worried, I think he even used the word scared, about the next few weeks. So, again, an object lesson for leaders to pay attention to the public health people, even if they don't like the message! I find it interesting that this new Premier of ours is not being given a harder time over this. He did change his tune very quickly, but it was too late by then. Perhaps the third wave would have happened anyway, but I bet it would have been more easily contained because far fewer people would have been exposed initially. Oh well, water under the bridge and all that. Eventually we'll get through it.
I think Bergamo was the area most inundated in the first wave. Our friends said it was like being in a war the ambulance sirens were continuous day and night and the military trucks were noisily grinding through small streets loaded with coffins.
Strangely (well, to me at least) when there was some opening up, people were out on the streets, side by side, forming big crowds and the Bergamo/Milan area was as bad as anywhere else even though their figures were still high. And a few weeks later - the numbers were climbing again.
Agree! 85 health authorities in the UK now have people sick with the Indian variant! If the spread doesn’t slow then we will be back in trouble soonish! But they don’t know how it acts regarding the vaccine. Most people in hospital are those who turned down the vaccine but were eligible for it but one patient had had both vaccines and still caught it...but is described as ‘frail’. Um. Caution for me, but it’s a personal choice atm! S x
None have landed in Italy since it took off in India - and it doesn't appear to be a problem so far although there are some cases. But they seem very keen to let UK tourists back in - with the knock-on effect that could have.
Unbelievable. Yes I think italy France and Greece all want uk tourists but those countries may just stay on the amber list. The Indian variant cases are now growing faster and I think the EU should put England on their red list!
I’m more of an optimist and believe there will be sufficient cross reactivity that we’ll still have decent protection against the viral mutations. Especially for those vaccines that provide 94-95% efficacy against the targeted virus. Won’t be surprised if we’ll need annual vaccinations like we do with influenza.
Depends what happens in the mutation - and the more it mutates, the further it can get from what they have. It;s what viruses do. But even just the extra infectivity is potentially disastrous - not because of just Covid but the potential occupancy of hospital beds stopping all the other things like cancer and other surgery.
Very good programme on BBC called Hospital from Coventry about them only being able to to do 2 emergency operations per day because of no ICU beds. Choosing who can have surgery and live, who not and potentially deteriorating so much they won't ...
Agreed - it's an excellent programme, and our local cancer hospital. I went there for radio therapy. The daughter of our local vicar is one of those who has had to decide which patients got into ITU! Not a pleasant duty.Paddy
Did you see the one last year from UCH (I think) - showed Petros, a member of the forum, when he was admitted for Covid. And the West Mids ambo service during the peak.
Thanks for the memory PMRPro. My recovery is OK. The Hospital film crew, Label1, are nominated for one of the 2021 TV BAFTAs.
I am just wondering if the vaccines affect sensitivity of the body to pred. I recently missed my midnight 5mg daily dose and woke at 6am with severe pain, hands, arms and ankles, just as when I started PMR, 10 years ago. I took the 'missed' dose immediately which cleared the pain in 4 hours. A previous missed dose was almost painless. (Vaccine -Pfizer)
Yes, I did. I think we've watched all the Hospital programmes. We sometimes wonder if the politicians ever see them, as they give a somewhat different perspective on occasions!Paddy
I have antibodies! No idea how many was like a pregnancy test got the line across the iGg for positive! The guardian is right! Thanks for always being here for me! Xo
I have had PMR for 3.5 years. started at 15... went down to 2.5 a year ago then had a flare and back to 7.5 and difficulty dropping so now a year later am at 4mg. I had Pfizer shot Jan 25th and 2nd one on Feb 18th at 5 mg. and yesterday the antibody test said yes. No idea the AMOUNT of antibodies. I will still treat it all carefully. Will never take off mask in public indoor places (hardly go to them) and when I can go back to Sweden to visit grandkids I will be super careful getting there!
yes and only $38 which for some reason they "refunded" to my credit card. Although that could be a glitch....but maybe health insurance *I am in USA with super expensive health plan.. picked it up.
Even better! I spoke to my GP and she said it wasn’t possible for me to get a test as they are only being done for research purposes. She suggested I speak to my Gastro consultant- in case they will do one at the hospital. I think that’s a long shot!
Lloyds pharmacy on line does a brilliant one for £50. It gives you the actual number of antibodies you have. It is a blood test. We were delighted with it. I had many more antibodies than my hubby who is on a blood cancer medication.
Thank you. I’ll have a look. Not much good at collecting blood from myself. Last time I tried anything like it, it took so long to fill it to the line that it all congealed! That’s why I wanted someone to do it for me!!
My diabetic son told me the secret, which is to steep your hands in very hot water for two or three minutes, dry them quickly and then " milk" the finger you have pierced. It worked!
Prednisone. I have had PMR for 3.5 years. started at 15... went down to 2.5 a year ago then had a flare and back to 7.5 and difficulty dropping so now a year later am at 4mg. I had Pfizer shot Jan 25th and 2nd one on Feb 18th at 5 mg. and yesterday the antibody test said yes. No idea the AMOUNT of antibodies. I will still treat it all carefully. Will never take off mask in public indoor places (hardly go to them) and when I can go back to Sweden to visit grandkids I will be super careful getting there!
My husband and I had our first vaccination at the end of March (the AZ one). We are in England. We took part in an antibodies test, done by BioTech. I was very pleased to see that my result showed I had some antibodies (the husband’s didn’t!)
That’s great news for you! I was very cheered by the Guardian article too. I also had done test for antibodies which showed positive after both AZ vaccines. Tentatively feeling I may be at less risk than was thought. 🌤
It's always treated by rheumatologists and appears on arthritis websites, but isn't there a strong possibility it's really "vasculitis" - inflammation of blood vessels, not bones and joints? Not that switching to the umbrella of a different medical specialty would be likely to help us!
No - a vasculitis, inflammation of blood vessels in general, arteritis is inflamed arteries. Arthritis is a disease of joints - PMR doesn't actually affect joints, just the synovium lining and surrounding soft tissues
A higher (for me) dose of pred definitely makes OA pain go away, but at what cost? I try very hard to treat only the PMR part of my chronic pain conditions, but it is sometimes hard to sort them out. I feel better in myself, but not painfree, now that I'm back to 5 mg a day, and hope the PMR activity doesn't increase.
I have seronegative poly arthritis (as I think you know) as well as PMR and I don't think I've had one completely pain free day for 9 years. Of course age doesn't help.😏
“…appeared to result in a tenfold reduction in antibody production, regardless of the dose given if administered around the time of the vaccine.”
I am totally confused…I’ve read that the normal amount of cortisol in a person is between 5-25 mcg/dL which equates to 0.05-0.25 mg/L and if multiply this by the average volume of blood of 5 liters works out to be 0.25mg - 1.25mg. I also seem to remember (dreamed?) that under various types of stress (emotional, infections, physical, etc.) the total amount of naturally produced cortisol could be as high as 30mg? Take this and apply the equivalency of Pred:Cortisol of 1:4 and that equates to 7.5mg Prednisone.
So extrapolate further, expect total cortisol to range between 0.25 - 30mg, or 5 - 600 mcg/dL. The higher the concentration the higher percent of immunosuppression.
So, now the question. If any dose of Prednisone has an order of magnitude reduction in the effectiveness of the vaccine, then by that statement if the body is having a natural immune response whereas it’s concentration in the body is 600 mcg/dL or equivalent to 7.5 mg Prednisone then it too would result in an order of magnitude reduction in vaccine effectiveness. If 1.25mg (25mcg/dL) Cortisol is the upper end of normal that would indicate taking >0.31 mg Prednisone would start having a negative impact on vaccine effectiveness regardless as to being so minute to be insignificant (at the lower doses).
So, if all those calculations are close to being correct, then I take issue with that conclusion stated in the article by the OP.
I take issue with any Qualitative conclusions. If someone can make that kind of statement, show me the relationship (in the form of a concentration curve) of percent vaccine effectiveness versus cortisol concentration in mcg/dL else don’t publish such claims. If insufficient data exists from well designed studies then either publish effect unknown (truth), insufficient data (Truth), or nothing at all. All these types of reports from too small datasets (or inadequately designed studies) only cause people possible undue worry (additional stress), possible refusal to get the vaccine (why bother won’t be effective and I could have serious side effects), etc. In other words it just puts out more misinformation and serves no useful purpose. Could be, maybe, possibly…wth!
Sorry, my rant for the month. Just one of my buttons got pushed.
The most important fact is that the UK vaccination programme has resulted in a massive reduction in both deaths and serious illness, including amongst the elderly, many of whom will have been on steroids when they received the jab(s). That proves the vaccines are working well.
I know quite a few over 60s - and the only ones on pred are the ones I know from the forums. I think it is a bit sweeping to say a lot of older patients are on steroids ...
I do seem to come across a lot of people on steroids, possibly because it is now of interest to me, they include cancer, Crohn’s, myasthenia gravis, COPD as well as PMR. One person who has just started a large dose, has a tumour in his brain which the doctors think was triggered by the Pfizer vaccine and made it fast growing and inoperable. The doctors could be talking rubbish of course.
You are probably right. Everyone I meet now seems to tell me about their latest illness or their fiends’ latest illness, perhaps I am as bad. It seems to be a main topic of conversation now we have lost Trump.
The risk of dying from covid rises very rapidly with age. I was referring more to the care-home generation, say 75+. I'd expect a much higher proportion of those to be on steroids than 60 -75s.
Only just seen this, and yes, that's what I was told by consultant and also the doctor who gave me second AZ jab - "better than nothing",but proceed as if you haven't been done.
On 10mg of pred and had second jab a couple of weeks ago. I had a antibody test last week as part of a NHS research programme and showed positive for antibodies so there is hope....
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Does this sound familiar?
Squidgy sound in right ear!!
Can paracetamol help when pred doesn't?
Does this sound like pred withdrawal?
