Is drinking a lot of milk good for us? Or are oth... - PMRGCAuk

PMRGCAuk

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Is drinking a lot of milk good for us? Or are other dairy products better ...

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador

womenshealthnetwork.com/com...

reports on a study that found that "There was a positive association between higher milk intake and undesirable inflammatory markers (urine 8-iso-PGF2a and interleukin 6)." and also

"BUT, the use of fermented milk products such as yogurt, sour milk, keifer and cheese actually significantly reduced the incidence of hip fracture and death. For example, for every serving of fermented dairy consumed, women experienced a 10 to 15% reduction in both hip fracture and mortality. Eating fermented dairy was also associated with a decrease in oxidative stress and inflammation."

IL-6 is the cytokine related to PMR and at least some GCA. Basically it suggests not to worry about how much milk you drink - but eating/drinking fermented dairy products benefits us in two ways, both improving bone strength and reducing inflammation.

It doesn't have to be yoghurt - Skyr and kefir are also good. So is cheese.

64 Replies
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OK, quick question. Survey was completed with 100,000 men and women but the stats only mention women. Are the results applicable to us lads as well?

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Bcol

bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015

is the original paper which says

"In an analysis based on a single exposure assessment, men in the Cohort of Swedish Men also had a higher rate of death with higher milk consumption (table 2, fig 2). However, the excess risk was less pronounced than in women, with an adjusted hazard ratio of 1.10 (95% confidence interval 1.03 to 1.17) for three or more glasses of milk a day (mean 830 g a day) compared with less than one glass a day (mean 50 g a day) and was mainly associated with an increased rate of cardiovascular death (table 2 and fig 3). No reduction in all fractures or hip fracture rates with increasing milk intake was observed in men (fig 2)."

and

"We further investigated whether milk intake was associated with oxidative stress and inflammation. Milk intake was positively associated with 8-iso-PGF2α in both sexes, and with interleukin 6 in men (fig 4⇓). Consumption of fermented milk products (soured milk and yogurt) indicated a negative relation with both the oxidative stress and the inflammatory markers (see supplementary figure C, panel A). No such association was observed with cheese intake (see supplementary figure C, panel B)."

So too much milk isn't that good for you and fermented dairy is good. The effect is more pronounced in women than men but applies to both,

Bcol
Bcol in reply to PMRpro

Thank you, tiz interesting

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Bcol

I thought so. I'd really struggle use more milk per day than in my x mugs of tea - but they probably give me over 25% of my daily calcium requirement. And 1 ball of mozzarella would provide the rest!!

Bcol
Bcol in reply to PMRpro

Likewise, my only milk intake, as such is in tea, mind you I get through a lot of that. Do have a fair amount of yogurts though.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to Bcol

I measured the amount of milk I drink in tea and it's about 1 cup a day. I used to eat cereal every day, so that would have been another cup of milk, but that's a rare treat these days since cutting back carbs. When you think about it, that's plenty of milk for an adult, so why they suggest we drink glasses of extra milk beats me.

Bcol
Bcol in reply to HeronNS

They used to say it was good for us. Third of a pint at school every day and extra if you wanted. Have a cupful with morning porridge plus a large number of cups of tea a day and that's it.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to Bcol

I think it's different for growing children. It is good for them. Not so much for adults. In Canada, to avoid rickets, Vitamin D has been added to milk for decades. So I'm not anti-milk for children at all.

I think for adults there is too much phosphorus in milk so it doesn't help maintain bone density although why this isn't a problem with fermented forms I don't know. Perhaps it's because the micro-organisms have already pre-digested many of the nutrients, making them easier to absorb and utilise?

I tried giving up milk in my tea one year for Lent. By the end of Lent I had (temporarily) given up tea. I never learned to like the flavour, and black tea made my stomach hurt.

Bcol
Bcol in reply to HeronNS

Yes you are completely right about children, wasn't thinking!!!! I'll blame the Pred!!! Drank black tea in China for a couple weeks when out there with 130 children, but not my favourite. Can't be far off snow time for you now, I know my sister is getting boat out of the lake etc.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to Bcol

Aagghhh noooo! Not likely to get snow, at least none that stays on the ground, for a couple of months. In fact the temperature today was close to 20C! But, yes, I think people with cottages and whatnot like to get everything put safely to bed around Thanksgiving. With climate change the seasons seem to be shifting, everything running late.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Bcol

One of our priorities in China was to find milk - and we never failed! It started well in Beijing with a tiny shop opposite the hotel where the student running it spoke English. One night himself returned with a fermented milk of some sort, absolutely delicious on its own, but I nipped across the road and got the right stuff! Same in S Korea - they didn't understand you saying milk, but when you wrote it, no problem.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to HeronNS

The articles say it is due to the galactose content.

Milk (and anything else except breakfast cereals) in Europe isn't fortified but apparently Marks and Spencer sell one form that is fortified. It does mean you have to be careful checking nutritional info.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to PMRpro

The inflammation thing? Sorry, I was nattering on about bone health, a bit of a tangent on this thread.

I quite like oat milk with my tea.

Lauterbach
Lauterbach in reply to HeronNS

Re Drinking black tea and it making your stomach hurt. It could be that you were making it too strong. If you make it the same strength as when you use milk all you are likely to taste is the Tannin in the tea from experience it also affected my stomach. I drink black tea all the time, but make it a lot weaker. That way I can taste the tea and not the Tannin. Also it doesn't affect my stomach

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to Lauterbach

I appreciate your advice but the idea was only supposed to be Lenten discipline, not a fundamental desire to give up milk in my tea. Nowadays I give up computer games! By the same token I do not like coffee unless it has cream (not heavy cream) in it. To me there's no point drinking coffee black or with milk in it. Very picky, I know. Don't like skim milk in tea either. Nowadays it's 2% organic milk. So there must be something about the small amount of fat which contributes to mouth feel and flavour which appeals to me in these caffeinated beverages. A herbal tisane is quite another story. ☕☕

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Bcol

Think that was what put me off - frozen in the winter wasn't too bad but going off in the summer was definitely NOT!

Bcol
Bcol in reply to PMRpro

Yey, used to love it cold

I’ve been eating plain Greek yoghurt for breakfast, and at least one serving of cheese daily for 2.5 years now. 💪🏼

Thank you for sharing this!

Me too!

alvertta
alvertta in reply to PMRCanada

Me too. Eating skyr at breakfast w berries, hemp hearts and chia. Filling. Yummy.

PMRCanada
PMRCanada in reply to alvertta

Yep! Mine with homemade mixed berry compote...YUM.

Are they really saying that “for every serving of fermented dairy consumed, women experienced a 10 to 15% reduction in both hip fracture and mortality.” Does that mean if I have just one serving of fermented dairy I will experience a 10-15% reduction? I don’t think they mean that!

I was told when I was diagnosed with PMR I should have a pint of milk a day.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to piglette

It seems not!!! Though it is observational so not fixed in stone!

It will be the change in risk not absolute risk - the old story! But you don't need to drink gallons of milk for bones - and it was more the effect on IL-6 that interested me.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to piglette

My doctor told me to drink more milk, but I already knew better, had known for years that yoghurt and cheese were better for us adults than baby animals' food - i.e. liquid cows' milk. I do drink milk in my tea, but not otherwise. Think this was info I picked up when I was pregnant, actually, as I remember not heeding a friend's advice to drink a lot of milk. I did eat a lot of walnuts when nursing as an acquaintance from Syria said that's what new mothers ate to improve milk production. Turns out they are a fairly good source of iron, I didn't know that then. Later, as a beginning vegetarian, I read up on ways to get calcium without relying on dairy.

alvertta
alvertta in reply to HeronNS

And one Brazil nut per day for selenium.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to alvertta

I knew there was a reason I used to eat Brazil nuts, not just because I like them. Haven't had any for a while. Aren't they getting hard to find because the Amazon rainforest is being destroyed?

alvertta
alvertta in reply to HeronNS

We find them in the local grocery store. Eat one every day.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to alvertta

I'm sure I could get them if I was interested enough. I am concerned about the supply generally, not on a personal level. You do know the Amazon rainforest is on track to flip over into savannah?

alvertta
alvertta in reply to HeronNS

Yup. We humans are not good for the environment.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to alvertta

I suppose in a generation or two people will either be eating manufactured foods, or scrabbling in the dirt for what they can find. Neither scenario is very appealing. Meanwhile I am off track so I'd better stop here!

Yes, nuts and seeds in general are very good for most of us (there are some who have life-threatening allergies), I like them and as long as my teeth hold up I'll be eating them :)

alvertta
alvertta in reply to HeronNS

Yes. My naturopath likes me to eat nuts at breakfast. Around us in rural Ontario there is a surge in home grown veg and supporting local farmers. a good trend. Cut down the number of km travelled per veg. And know who grew your food. We have eggs and beef a half km away. Plus so many little farms around us. A gift.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to alvertta

I buy pretty much only local produce (except oranges and bananas and their ilk of course). There is more local hydroponic production these days as well, to see us through the winter with local greens. When I started pred I began eating pumpkin seeds instead of cereal at breakfast time.

alvertta
alvertta in reply to HeronNS

Interesting. I have pumpkin seeds in a granola I made last month. Will have to try that. Sunny here. Off to garden. Have a great day.

Very interesting, PMRpro - thanks for sharing this. I have been unable to drink milk due to intolerance but found I can eat most cheese and some yoghurt. Have actually been doing the right thing inadvertently! 🙂

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Rache

Lactose intolerance - ask for a test! Lot less lactose in yogs and hard cheese ...

Similare to Rache I have found for many years that I was intolerant to milk but quite ok with yoghurt, cheese - and cream. Since finding lactose free butter I can happily eat that too.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Saxsoprano

You'd love it here - almost all dairy products can be found in lactose-free versions. It is very common up here in the mountains.

Great info. Thank you.

On another support site, the guy who started it up advocates the Keto diet. It worked for him and he is now off all meds. In addition to PMR he also has RA. However, the Keto diet wouldn't work for me as I lost a lot of during the 4 months before diagnosis and I'm finding it difficult to put it back on. I am eating dairy - yoghurt, cheese, full fat milk, lots of fresh veg, chicken (mainly), fruit (mainly bananas as they agree with my digestive system), but low carbs and no sugary foods/treats. It seems to work for me.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Pr0jection

We talk a lot on here about the low carb diet - keto is next to impossible to achieve when you are on pred as it triggers the liver to release random spikes of glucose from the muscle stores of glycogen and that alone takes you out of keto. However - there have been people doing keto and no-one has ever said it cured them. But a male version of PMR often defies the usual rules.

But your diet isn't low carb if you include bananas plural! A LOT of carb in a banana!

Pr0jection
Pr0jection in reply to PMRpro

Ah yes, that may be so with bananas, but I'm considering that along with the other food I eat. I will be having some fasting blood tests next Monday and I'm curious to see the results. If they're OK I'll continue as I am. If not, I'll adjust accordingly. Thanks for the reply.

When first prescribed pred I was given an NHS leaflet which recommended an increase in consuming dairy products and to eat 5 eggs a week, my understanding is that it helps the bones.

Thanks for very interesting read. I wonder if there is a difference between goat and cow milk. My guess it applies to both. Happy to hear about cheese and yoghurt: don't think I'd be happy giving those up.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to FRnina

purewow.com/food/goat-milk-....

thespruceeats.com/goats-mil...

I doubt it somehow - except it has 13% more calcium per volume than cow milk. But it is rather GOATY in flavour ... ;)

Pr0jection
Pr0jection in reply to FRnina

Sheep's milk is also very good for you, more protein and lower in sodium.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Pr0jection

Infinitely preferable as cheese :) Pecorino for example

I only use cow's milk for tea - no substitute is acceptable though!

Thanks for research ! not much between them it seems. This household is where goaty competes with garlicky (can get used to the stuff).

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to FRnina

I love garlic (and goat's cheese, quite common here) but OH will accuse me of cooking with garlic when it isn't even in the house!! So I avoid the issue!

nickm001
nickm001 in reply to PMRpro

Garlic also helps for social distancing :)

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to nickm001

Not so much here! And definitely not amongst the Polish tourists ;) Sharing a ski gondola soon after breakfast can be an experience ...

OH you don't know what your missing. Oven roasted garlic squelched on crusty bread and a glass of wine... you'll never look back

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to FRnina

Oh I DO know what I'm missing! The crusty bread as well as I'm allergic to wheat - though I can usually get away with baguette etc in France ...

will raise a glass to you and OH at garlicky aperitif time today in France. Garlick= health benefits, non?

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to FRnina

Mais certainement :)

All the books on keto and low carb eating say to eliminate milk but other dairy such as cheese and yoghurt is good, especially the fermented stuff. I just quit milk as of yesterday so this is a timely article, I'll see if it makes a difference to inflammation levels. I've also switched to nettle and Holy Basil tea instead of standard black teas. It's worth an experiment

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to tangocharlie

Holy Moly - no, I can't see nettle and basil tea hitting the spot in the morning!!!

I did find something recently saying that anything less than 50 cals is unlikely to upset the morning fast in the 16:8 split - and each of my morning mugs has under 25 cals. Someone else was delighted too ...

tangocharlie
tangocharlie in reply to PMRpro

Yes I''m missing it already but am trying to think positive. I have tried milk substitutes like Oatley and react to them all except a coconut based milk called Koko, so I just concluded I'd experiment for a while on cutting out milk and see if it affects inflammation. I had already switched to lactose free milk to lower the sugar and now just decided to quite cold-turkey. As I am going to be virtually cut off from the world due to Covid restrictions and not going out to eat this seems a good time to give really healthy low-carb eating another go. I'm also cutting out pork, and tbh think I'll miss bacon even more than the morning cuppa. So just chicken, fish and low carb veg, one meal a day, for a month, I'll report back in 30 days #LearningToLoveNettleTea

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to tangocharlie

ruled.me/keto-milk-substitu...

says the drop in a cup of tea/coffee is fine. There seems to be an assumption that if you want to go keto you would want to drink a whole 200ml glass of milk at breakfast!

tangocharlie
tangocharlie in reply to PMRpro

Oh yes i have been having a bit of lactose-free or goats milk in my tea in the morning but as I'm going to try and keep carbs really low it makes sense to try cutting out milk completely and see if it helps the weight and more importantly inflammation. I aim for keto, but as you point out it is very hard to stay in ketosis when on steroids so am really going to try my darndest and every carb counts when you're only allowed about 20 of them a day. I can do a month. See, I've just made myself accountable to thousands of people on here, so i will have to do it now! LOL PS I once saw a programme that pointed out babies put on a pound a week and all they drink is milk, so that made me think! I don't think it was a science programme, probably was Gogglebox (my favourite prog ever).

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to tangocharlie

Lactose-free isn't lower sugar though - just the lactose is already split into glucose and galactose in the production.

tangocharlie
tangocharlie in reply to PMRpro

Ah right, that must be why switching hasn't helped the weight. D'oh, I should read the science!

PMRGCA members should tune into Michael Mosley's webinar on Monday to learn more about low-carb and eating for your gut. He is a very engaging and knowledgeable speaker, what a coup to get him to speak to us!

Thanks for that. I now have soya milk unsweetened which contains less carbs. Didn’t particularly like it at first but have completely got used to it. Do eat though thick Greek yogurt and cheese, both of which I love.

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