Is our Poo a Crystal Ball into our health destiny... - PMRGCAuk

PMRGCAuk

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Is our Poo a Crystal Ball into our health destiny ? Auntie Bee did a little research to see if the truth is in our bowels.

Blearyeyed profile image
94 Replies

After reading a post yesterday suggesting that using DNA or Gut Microflora testing may help me see into the Future of my long term health my curiosity was peeked . Is the Bioflora of my gut the " forgotten organ" with insight into the probability of my chances to get another autoimmune disease or cancer?

Could my current illnesses , not just digestive issues but even things like my GCA and PMR have been predicted years ago in my poop?

I know many of you will have raised a skeptical eyebrow. Yes , many forum members will have been doing a creditable impression of Roger Moore over your probiotic yoghurt but were you wrong to dismiss it . Well , after some members showed an interest in taking the test themselves Auntie Bee decided to do a little research herself to see if having a private Gut Microflora test was worth us spending our precious pennies on and this is what I discovered.

The short answer is a definite , No.

Gut Bioflora / DNA testing is in its infancy , it involves a lot of hype but not much hard and usable fact , it may be a test that will revolutionise Medicine in the future , but that future will be a distant one . Gut Testing is yet another one of these things that needs to be relegated to the " Don't try this at Home yet " pile much like Bicarbonate of Soda or the multifarious forms of sleeping aid or over the counter , unregulated or tested products including CBD.

But Why? Auntie Bee , can expand on her decision.

As yet , Microfloras ability to predict ,or help in the diagnosis of most illnesses , even simple stomach infections has not been researched enough to the point that even Gut Flora Specialists have a systematic set of guidelines to use themselves. The big Bio Boffins know that in the future with greater research the tale of our future woes could be told in our poo , just as the tale of a poor digestive system is already evident in the shape and size of our stools but they are not there yet. Until they have thoroughly researched how to do this , and created data that can state the amount of specific bacterias in our guts are required to prove a diagnosis the results of a Bioflora analysis will never be relied upon to predict your future Health . It won't even be relied upon alone to Diagnose a common bout of the trots.

People whom have read a lot about Digestion and Gut Health may be wondering why I'm not using the well quoted word Microbiome in discussing this. Microbiome , or Biome is a word regularly used while discussing this growing area of scientific interest but it has also been misused. I chose not to do the same , as it turns out it is not a word used regularly by Researchers themselves and came into common parlance with its use by one of the original creators of the Gut DNA Home Test kits , a group called Ubiome . From 2012 , Ubiome, have gained huge business investment and a collection of over 250,000 private , paid for, poop tests from their citizens project whilst promoting the idea of " Biome" being the predictor of autoimmune diseases and cancers . Although their poop tests could be a thing of the future the work itself may not be in use for decades as a credible form of Health Prediction. The group itself is also under investigation by the FBI for billing irregularities and information errors.

If you pardon the pun, this particular Companies ethics are not my only reason for "poo pooing" spending out anything upto £150 on this test. It is simply because a test like this , on its own, from the advice of researchers and gastroenterologists ,will not tell you anything much and even if you had it done , or your doctor took a free poo test , it would not be used alone to make a diagnosis or cause them to recommend a change in your health routine.

I particularly liked an analogy I read by a Gastroenterologist from the University of Southern California , Rosh Modi. They said, would you take one photograph of your garden at a specific time or day , send it to a friend and then expect them to predict how well your garden will grow all year round?

Of course not , because one photo could not predict what other things might affect the health of that garden over the year or even later that week. Microbiological tests of stools must be viewed in the same way. You would need more tests at different points to run a comparison just in case the food you had the week before affected your results and then you would still need blood and other tests for confirmation of what your gut was telling you. Most Doctors at the moment choose to jump a step to predicting chronic illness by just using clinic conversation , symptoms and blood tests instead. The questionnaire that comes with the tests concerning what you ate before testing is as good an indicator of a future blighted by Obesity or Diabetes than the results from the stool itself.

An perfect example is of one person whom tried a test and had virtually no Probiotic Bacteria despite having a high probiotic diet and had , had a negative full set of tests for Coeliac disease but got a low score of bacteria required to process gluten. Her poop was really not telling the whole tale. Research has already proved that low probiotics in the bowel are common , even in people whom take prescribed supplements because the bacteria are processed further up the digestive system. And even though low gluten bacteria may suggest an intolerance , it can also suggest that you already have a gluten free diet by choice. Even the indicators of Coeliac or H.pylori B in the blood or breath can be altered to give a false negative if you do not eat gluten or digest certain things, which is why they may ask you to eat , or not eat certain things , for weeks before a test is given . Most other important bacterias that do not present in the blood are only confirmed by Breath Tests and Biopsies.

It's not that they are dismissing the use of poo in Health , it is important right now. There is one reason that you should be insisting you send you poo off in an envelope.

The one test using your poop that is vital in preventing Bowel Cancer and Bowel Diseases is the Free Bowel Screening Tests you should have from age 60 ( or earlier with a family history of the disease) to test for blood and Cancer cell DNA in your stools . These tests , just like Cervical Smears , Breast Scans, and Prostate checks really do save lives , and excuse me for being blunt but you are being a complete ninny if you ignore or put off having them.

But, if you are short of money , as most of us can be with all the extra costs of coping with a Chronic Illness , but still desperate to find a way to get answers , these poop tests aren't going to help you in the way giving your GP a polite but stern kick up the bum will.

Hope this was helpful to those considering these tests , and all this toilet talk didn't put you off your cuppa , hugs , Auntie Bee xxx

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Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed
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94 Replies
SheffieldJane profile image
SheffieldJane

I found that really interesting . It stopped me obsessing about heavy metals in cosmetics. Metal will become the new plastic. Sorry to diverge. Giddy with relief having got the head MRI out of the way, not even had the results.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to SheffieldJane

Hope it and the rest of the week goes well. As long as you know that stopping use of things containing heavy metals or plastics is a good thing it's definitely not worth obsessing about . Big hugs xxx

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador

Thank you Bee for writing what I would have had I had time!

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro

Thanks Pro , Glad to help , and it keeps me out of trouble !😋😁😘

Yellowbluebell profile image
Yellowbluebell in reply to Blearyeyed

Nothing keeps you out of trouble bee, it only keeps you put of being arrested. Not the same thing.

Glad we can finally put this so called "cure all" test to bed for the foreseeable future or at least ours!! YBB

Ranchero profile image
Ranchero

Brilliant! What a wonderful sleuth you are Blearyeyed. So many ponderables and variables within this human physiology - as those on this forum will no doubt appreciate. The great human fixation with poo goes on and on - remember mad King George and his stools? There must be something in it 😂😂😂🤓. But gut tests not yet sophisticated enough - or it is not known of what they seek?

Great to get a sharp reminder about Bowel screening - so very important.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Ranchero

Thanks , yes , Bowel Screening for Cancers is definitely worth pooping for.

And a great point you made by mentioning Mad King George , as in reality if they'd spent more time looking at the other parts of his body and his urine instead of obsessing about his poops they may have understood what was going on a bit quicker.

If you haven't seen the film I'd highly recommend it , hugs xx

Ranchero profile image
Ranchero in reply to Blearyeyed

Oh yes, the film is one of my favourites. Browsing through the literature (as one does🤓) I found this ancient article you might find interesting _

S.A. MEDICAL JOURNAL 5 July 1958 PORPHYRIA I~ SOUTH AFRICA: THE FAECAL EXCRETION 'OF PORPHYRIN

H. D. BARNES, M.Se., PH.D., A.R.l.C. The South African Institute for Medical Research, Johannesburg

just copy the above into your browser. Hope you are having a decent day. x

Ranchero profile image
Ranchero in reply to Blearyeyed

By the way your much missed feline friend is the spit and image of my much missed feline friend. Such a miss. x

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Ranchero

A nod to your much missed feline.

😂😂😂😂 Thanks for the article , I already have the reputation of being the " Poo Lady" from my time volunteering with the Wildlife Trust , looks like it's followed me here too! 😋

But I will have a look bit of brain training for the day , hugs xx

Highlandtiger profile image
Highlandtiger

Thanks - that's all really interesting and makes perfect sense. Re bowel cancer screening I don't know about E+W but it actually starts at 50 in Scotland for everyone. And how did you get that hat to stay on the cat? Did you administer drugs? 🙀

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Highlandtiger

That's how chilled out my old and much missed feline friend was , not like your tree climbing nutter ( he loved that hat !!) Good point about the different timings for Screening , thanks for that xx

Highlandtiger profile image
Highlandtiger in reply to Blearyeyed

Ha! I wouldn’t have a chance with a hat! Her latest escapade was to get her head stuck in a venetian blind! 😻 xx

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Highlandtiger

Now that's a whole other dimension in winter head accessories, are blinds cutting edge fashion for cats this year?!!😋😂😂😂😘

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Highlandtiger

I just checked looks like Wales is 60 to 74 and we miss out again on useful early bowel screening .

By the way , you can't see it but the cat is also wearing a matching stripey cat sized scarf with bobbles on. He didn't wear the hat all the time , he usually came up to have it put on before a nap , but he went mad if you tried to take his scarf , even in the summer.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Blearyeyed

You mean your cat is as mad as you????????

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro

He wasn't so bad , the other one certainly had ..... Issues!😋

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Blearyeyed

Ah-ha ....

Highlandtiger profile image
Highlandtiger in reply to Blearyeyed

I wonder why they've made such different decisions on the timing of the tests? They’re so efficient here that you get your first test kit pretty much at the same time as your 50th birthday cards! 😳 I guess it’s financial but presumably carrying out treatment when problems are found early costs much less than if they’re found later?

And you think my cat is mad?? 😻😹

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Highlandtiger

I'm way off , but I double checked as I was basing my knowledge on what my friend had said , turns out it's right. I think they originally began doing testing at 60 and Wales and England might not have made the same changes as elsewhere. England are introducing testing from an odd age of 56. Of course , if it's not available but you want it checked it's worth asking the GP to have it done.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Highlandtiger

Probably because someone in the Scottish NHS realises that prevention is better than cure ...

Estellemac profile image
Estellemac

In the subject of bodily fluids mainly poo, I have seen research on good gut bacteria providing a “cure” for Celiacs or Crones disease. You take the contents of a healthy bowel, blend it into a fluid then introduce it into an unhealthy bowel. It worked well on the test subject allegedly. You don’t drink it by the way.

Parker has the colon of a mythical god. My whole digestive system hates me and refuses to act the way nature designed it to. Regardless of yoghurt kimchi kefir and inulin (chicory root to add fibre) when I can’t eat tons of veg.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Estellemac

I know exactly how you feel , any imbalance causes my gut to fume , hence my interest in checking if the gut tests would be a miracle thing . My OH , like Parker , 90% of the time has a stomach like a steel tank .

So glad you pointed out they weren't having to consume the poop smoothie , I was thinking in horror of pirates ( and Bear Grylls!!) drinking urine on long exotic journeys!😨😲😲😲

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Estellemac

Other way round in this household!

Several uses of faecal transplants - not least to sort out C.Diff

theguardian.com/lifeandstyl...

in reply to PMRpro

Yuk to gastronasal tube especially!!!! 🤢🤮

I used to have an iron stomach.... No more. Too many meds I think. Although in my mid 30s I had gastric flu and it started being more sensitive as the years past. Got the generic ibs now of course!

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to

Yes, I thought that! There are two ends to the gut ...

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

Mine started to go downhill after a nasty bout of salmonella , and child birth didn't help, my Digestive issues have always been very sensitive to hormones. Having no gall bladder doesn't help much either , but most of my woes are connected to what makes up my digestive system as much as what I put in it. Bad nerves and loose connective tissue seem to be a primary cause , when I do eventually poop Dr. Gillian would probably still be quite happy with the results.😋😂😂😂

in reply to Blearyeyed

When I watched the programme my fridge always looked like the after fridge.... Still don't know why I blew up like a balloon in less than a year with no change in diet. The only thing that change was I was super stressed and didn't sleep.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

That in itself can change the balance of your gut flora , especially when you have diabetes . Eventually this sort of testing will prove what happens in these scenarios it will just need some guinea pigs with these conditions donating a number of poop samples through a year to help them prove it statistically and use it to advice Patients and Doctor's on what to do next.

In the meantime , it's worth continuing with your gut friendly diet and reducing stress techniques and exercise , as it does help until we get the chance of looking into a well tested crystal ball.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro

Both fascinating and a bit ukky , perfect reading for me 😋

scats profile image
scats

Thanks, that explains the post at the weekend which did confuse me, despite having read about gut flora. I agree with you that the garden analagy is a good one, as is your conclusion.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to scats

Thanks , I thought it was worth investigating so many of us have an interest in these holistic health issues it's good to divide the "worth trying" from the "save until laters".

You may not want to read Estelle s reply and my response about some interesting research into Coeliac treatment , especially if you have an early Tea xxx

scats profile image
scats in reply to Blearyeyed

I loved estelle's reply. I only wish my OH had the colon of a mythical god. To say I'm jealous is a gross understatement.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to scats

Yes if you know anybody with a spare colon of a mythical God do let me know , I'd be happy to take it off their hands😋

scats profile image
scats in reply to Blearyeyed

I think you'll find it's finders keepers!

Great stuff. I dread to think what future they would have predicted for me with my poo last year....🤢Probably start digging a grave. ☠️

I really wouldn't like a poo transplant. I don't even think about what caused my various health issues this far down the line and just try and eat good things, mixed with some people see as bad, I try and do some activity a few days a week and just enjoy life. If I don't enjoy the good days, how could I face the bad??

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

Oh yes , all of this work on our diets and trying to maintain a healthy gut is miles ahead of using the flora as a proper indicator of most diseases , as one test , on its own anyway.

Keeping healthy gut flora is well worth it in my experience , but often those flora which can make the biggest difference are the ones in the small intestine which won't necessarily show up in large figures in your poop or ones that embed in the colon wall and are only found by the biopsies used in a colonoscopy.

in reply to Blearyeyed

I may ask gastro if they did such tests on my biopsies. They took several during both colonoscopies as I signed for excess tissue to be used in research. They we taking bits all over.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

It's definitely worth seeing if they did the bacterial testing on your biopsies , I think it's standard , they may just not mention the results if they are normal.

in reply to Blearyeyed

I will ask. Got a letter say due an appt today.

Two words... Gillian mckeith.....obsessed with the stuff, but never looked well to me.

Highlandtiger profile image
Highlandtiger in reply to

You're right! I'd completely forgotten about her!

scats profile image
scats in reply to

Not "Dr" Gillian Mckeith? 💩

Lovely Scoops you made us both laugh here.

in reply to scats

Good.... I am Dr and it didn't come from the Internet.... Or did it??? 🤔

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to

There is evidence ...

in reply to scats

I was wishing I could have reclaimed my old identity for this discussion!

Although scoopitup says it all.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

Every time I write the word Poop I think of you , I hope you don't think that, that's a bad thing?!!😘😘😍

in reply to Blearyeyed

No. I was fond of it. I tried various ways of having poops but it wouldn't let me have it.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

Just read that sentence again ( please don't change it!) but can you see why I'm cracking a rib laughing . Constipated , much, moi ???😂😂😂😂😂😘

in reply to Blearyeyed

😂🤣😂 Oh well. The subconscious often tells it like it is.

Estellemac profile image
Estellemac in reply to

🤮🦠

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

Oh I loved that woman , although I was always a bit concerned about wether she would get her kids lunchbox es mixed up!😋😂😂😂

in reply to Blearyeyed

,😂🤣😂

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS

Interesting thread. I'm astonished any company could get away with selling this kind of test. it's not just a snapshot of one day in the life of a garden, it's a snapshot, presumably, of one kind of garden. Not only are our gut flora and fauna different one person from the other, state of health notwithstanding, but people in different parts of the world, or even with different lifestyles in the same community, will have markedly different (please let me use microbiome, it's so succinct and we all know what it means) microbiota.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to HeronNS

The interesting thing I didn't mention from my reading was obviously the results of what are considered good or bad at the moment are based on comparing your samples with all other available samples. So , just because the general population whom had taken the tests or had hospital tests may have very high , or low , populations of certain bacterias it wouldn't necessarily be significant to your future Health if you were not the same.

You aren't basically being compared , " like" for " like" and until more scientific research is done on specific Chronic Health or other demographic groups would not have a big enough sample for accurate comparisons.

It's not a bad test though for some groups and is helping Specialists in certain , specific diseases with a primary base in Bacterial Activity or gut Inflammation see patterns in future treatments , and I suppose some people could end up catching an early Cancer diagnosis if they hadn't presented with any other symptoms yet , but for the majority , it isn't anywhere need useable and is building up hopes that it won't necessarily fulfill.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to Blearyeyed

Gut bacteria are terrifically important. It's now thought that they can affect our mood, making it a factor in depression, for example. Or even implicated in some cases of autism. oadd.org/wp-content/uploads...

psychologytoday.com/ca/blog...

So although the test you critique definitely isn't ready for the big time it's fascinating to see the results of recent research into the subject.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to HeronNS

Totally agree , as a long time sufferer of digestive issues and IBS I have read research and tried things which do improve symptoms by improving my gut flora for years. The Self Care and diet side of the subject is both fascinating and can be an essential part of your chronic health tool kit , especially if you have stomach issues, it's just that this sort of test wouldn't be fit for purpose for sometime to help with the predictions that people would hope for.

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing a snap shot of the Microbiological World of my Lower intestines , I would , but it's the potentially false hope from the results that some people would have and the cost on something that may not end up helping your diagnosis that concerns me.

Another interesting point that I read was that it also doesn't give an accurate indication of what is happening in the small intestine or the stomach which can be the source of many of these gut imbalance issues , and of course , there was not a reliable way with current tests in establishing what was alive or dead.

I'm still going to continue using my probiotic yoghurt and improving my Diet as I know that's the part that counts.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to Blearyeyed

My husband is currently taking a daily tablespoonful of cultured coconut milk (a kefir variation) which includes 40 different species. This is to help him preserve and restock his gut bacteria during and after taking a course of strong antibiotics. So far so good!

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to HeronNS

Yes , I usually have some probiotic yoghurt after my meal and about an hour after taking my antibiotics when I am on them . It was recommended to me to do to replace the digestive enzymes that the medication would kill off , antibiotics don't discern between the good and the bad .

I also go fungi and yeast free on these courses as I do have a habit of getting fungal or oral thrush when I take antibiotics.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS

And for everyone's further entertainment:

smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne...

in reply to HeronNS

I really hope my breath doesn't smell like my dogs.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to

What I found most interesting was that not only do dog owers share a "microbiome" with their dogs, but members of the whole family are more similar to one another than they would be in a non-dog-owning family. I think there was also a mention that the microbiome had fewer different species in it, but not sure I'm remembering that correctly. The original information I read, or maybe saw on a science program, also mentioned that the same is not true for cat owners.

in reply to HeronNS

My dog does eat my bits that I chop off my peppers, tomatoes etc. So shares a diet. Her dog food is primarily chicken and veg. It is weird though. I can say she isn't very empathetic. She would step over me to get her ball or food even if I was sobbing. She only likes me laughing and singing. Ignores me otherwise. I just hope it's not dogs etc in cages they go on to use.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to HeronNS

Has that got as much to do with psychology as anything else , maybe there is a bit of a pack mentality with dog owners rather than the devil may care attitude of a cat family.

Plus , the habit of dog owners offering tit bits to their pets ( or full leftovers ) may mean their diets are very much the same.

Cats are more picky , unless they are stealing your chicken or ice cream.

Whole new meaning to the term , " Dog Breath" though!😋😂😂😂

Thanks for that link xx

Lookingforideas profile image
Lookingforideas in reply to HeronNS

Fascinating- but I guess as they share so many aspects of our lives and lifestyles it’s actually not really surprising 😃👍

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to Lookingforideas

Except it's only dogs. You'd think there would be some effect, if not as great, with cats, but no. So there is definitely something special about the way humans and wolves have evolved together.

in reply to HeronNS

You know pekingese are the closest dog to wolves.....

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to

I shall file that in the trivia compartment of my brain with the tidbit my husband shared a few minutes ago that the wild turkey is the mostly closely related of all birds to their dinosaur ancestor.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to HeronNS

Wow I'm learning some interesting stuff to share with the family over our Pancakes tonight!

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to Blearyeyed

As I have just been reading a book with amusing footnotes which sometimes turn out to be not true (stinking rich does NOT refer to burial underneath the church floor, on the other hand honeymoon does relate to a time when newlyweds freely imbibed mead), I thought I'd better check. True about turkeys, but also chickens, and ostriches. And also there are a number of dogs closely related to wolves, including pekingese, shi tzu, saluki, chow, and other which don't look much like each other nor mostly much like wolves!

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to HeronNS

If I ever get back to a pub quiz , or playing Trivial Pursuit , I think you must be a phone playing member of the team 😘

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to Blearyeyed

Problem is I have a limited range. Things concerning the natural world stick better in my mind than, say, historical facts. And as for popular culture I'm a total write-off. (The other day I called the doctor's office to make an appointment for my husband. I was on hold for 15 minutes. During that time I was assaulted by Whitney Houston's singing. I was in a state of trauma by the time they took my call. Usually I'd switch off that kind of "music" instantly, but of course I had to keep on listening so I'd know when my call had gone through. )

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to HeronNS

It reminds me of the rubbish they put on while I was in the machine for my second MRI. Michael Jackson wailing that "Earth Song" then Justin " Bloomin" Bieber attempting Rap . I gave a call like they say to do if you have a problem , and when they asked if I was alright said , " I will be if you could turn this noise off and put something better on instead". Music great distraction in these machines as long as it doesn't make you want to tear your hair out.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to HeronNS

I always tell them if I had that sort of experience - it isn't fair.

She's doing a world tour you know - as a hologram ...

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to PMRpro

I told them. I was practically hysterical - my reaction surprised even me. I never thought I'd say this, but a bit of good old elevator Muzak would have been infinitely preferable. At least I could have ignored it.

in reply to HeronNS

I did not know that but looking at them I can well believe it!

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

If you see a Sandwich Tern chick they look just like little skeletal versions of dinosaurs , rather ugly really , or at least a bit of a shock , when you think about how beautiful the birds look when they finally get their feathers.

Black headed gull chicks remind me of WCFields ( or was it Buster Keaton?!!!) when he wore that big fluffy fur coat.

Oyster catcher chicks are some of the cutest though , like little wobbling polka dotted pompoms on legs.

in reply to Blearyeyed

Baby birds before feathers are incredibly dinosaur like. I haven't seen that many apart from springwatch!

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to

Being down at Cemlyn as volunteer wardens it was our job to keep an eye on them. Grandma was really funny when she saw her first tern chick through the scope and turned round , hands on hips , and said , " You mean we've spent all these weeks down here looking after that !!" She was only 7 , but she was not amused😋😂😂

in reply to Blearyeyed

😂🤣😂 My late uncle was was an avid birdwatcher who travelled the world when young. He was head warden at a large bird sanctuary when I was a kid but I didn't understand it. I do see lots of different birds on the woods and regular hear and see birds of prey but my brain does remember what they are... Except for an massive pair of snowy owls I saw in Scotland and drove my vw camper behind them as they followed the road for a couple of miles, sparrowhawks, peregrines. Buzzards and the Eagle I also saw in Scotland... I obviously like birds of prey... And a woodpecker and its hidden babies in a tree a few years ago! I am am rubbish apart from that and Robins. 😂🤣😂

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply to Blearyeyed

We don't know what dinosaurs looked like. They probably did have versions of feathers or iridescent scales.....

fmkkm profile image
fmkkm

Good documentary to watch; The Gut, Our Second Brain.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to fmkkm

Thanks I will have a look , not seen that one , but I do love to find any way I can to improve my gut and keep my body happier by doing it .

Theziggy profile image
Theziggy

Check out

rnz.co.nz/national/programm...

and

youtube.com/watch?v=5ufESc1...

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Theziggy

Oh my goodness , I knew I shouldn't have checked the forum just before lunch , thanks xx

Jackoh profile image
Jackoh

Fascinating subject. Thanks for your input x

tangocharlie profile image
tangocharlie

Interesting, I've only just read this, but I don't think it would have stopped me if I'd read it earlier - I've just sent off for a biome test from Chuckling goat, they don't do the actual testing but sell Atlas Biomed labkits. I hear what you say and you are probably right and maybe I'm a mug, but I'm still curious enough to spend £130, well twice that as I intend to repeat the test in a few months' time. I'm currently trying all sorts of things that might improve my gut health, like probiotics, l-glutamine, eliminating things like gluten and dairy for 28 days and adding in good stuff like more varied fibrous vegetables. I have no idea whether I have a 'leaky gut' (or even if that is a real thing) claimed to be the root cause of many autoimmune illnesses or whether what I'm doing will help, but I figure it's worth a try at this stage as my immune system has just spiralled out of control. I shall report back next month. I won't get the results from the stool test for about 5-6 weeks. The tests did get a good recommendation on various BBC food and health programmes, such as the Doctor in the House series with Rangan Chatterjee.

Mstiles profile image
Mstiles

I just came upon this post from 4 years ago and wondered if any more research about the effectiveness of these tests has been done. I have been prescribed this test by my holistic doctor, not my primary MD, and would rather skip the hassle it if it’s not yet any more useful than described in the post. The test is from Genova. I’m in the US.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Mstiles

That's Genova diagnostics I assume, not Genova the city ...

Mstiles profile image
Mstiles in reply to PMRpro

yes, Genova Diagnostics, not the city

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Mstiles

Just looked up the reviews for Genova Diagnostics on Trust Pilot, it got two stars and that was probably only because of a very few full star requested reviews.Words such as , " It's a Scam " , " If there's a class action lawsuit , count me in "

" It cost £490 and couldn't even tell me if I had any food intolerances"

" It took months for results and they were useless"

" GD stool tests cannot diagnose food intolerances or other problems if you want real results go to a real private lab for proper tests they cost the same and at least you get results for the money"

I think that answers the question, is the holistic practitioner you are visiting part of Genova Diagnostics as a company ?

If not , I'm surprised they are willing to ask you to fund these tests or to get your insurance to find them it doesn't take more than 30 seconds of time to see that they are not medically useful or credible.

To be frank , if I was seeing a holistic practitioner and found out that they were asking me to do tests which they hadn't properly researched as credible , I'd be very sceptical about their abilities and intentions in general , and I'd definitely show my opinion by heading for the door and finding myself a new more knowledgeable and responsible practitioner.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Mstiles

Has your holistic practitioner given you a reason why this test needs to be done? Us it a postal poo test like the ones we were discussing or a proper laboratory stool test looking for specific illnesses?

If you don't mind answering, why were you looking for help from the Holistic practitioner in the first place , have you started to have gastrointestinal or bowel problems or is it as a comprehensive assessment to help with other issues?

Personally, I still don't think that the postal poop testing has progressed much further in its ability to help diagnose issues and if something is found you'd still need to show the results to a GP and hope that they would take them seriously to do further tests or give treatment.

Many things highlighted in these tests are still just a snapshot and you can't guarantee that you are consistently having any problems that it could highlight. It still often gets misused by some Practitioners to then encourage people to make very costly decisions about taking supplements ( often sold by the practitioner themselves) or make diet changes that may not be necessary or appropriate.

So , knowing the reason for the test is important before choosing to have it or not, and it would make a difference to whether I'd be for or against it.

Take care , Bee

Mstiles profile image
Mstiles

Thanks for your detailed reply Blearyeyed.

The holistic doctor I’m seeing is part of a large, “regular” medical system. He’s not employed by Genova as far as I know and not receiving money from them, but who knows? This practice has MD’s that combine traditional medicine with some alternative, non-western practices. Right now it seems to be experiencing the same problems as all health care everywhere - doctor turnover and more cost for additional services. My insurance pays for the tests. The previous doctor I saw there also prescribed the mail in test, but I never completed it.

I think many are seeking alternative solutions beyond prescribing a new drug and then another drug to treat the effects of the first drug, and someone who will actually listen to you in a 10 minute appointment. The first doctor I had there did this. She would order more comprehensive tests that would provide more information, for example a complete thyroid panel instead of just the TSH level. (I had Graves’ disease before PMR/GCA). They also emphasize diet and stress relief practices. Acupuncture is provided at an extra cost.

I saw the new doctor there in January and was not impressed, or maybe I’m just becoming more cynical as I wend my way through multiple doctors and appointments. I haven’t ever been diagnosed with bowel problems except for constipation that has appeared off and on for many years and seems to be associated with stress or emotional problems. I do think diet has a lot more to do with or health than western medicine knows about or has interest in, but I believe this is changing.

I don’t think I’m going to bother with this Genova test. It makes sense that with all the variables affecting the results it would be pretty useless for me.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Mstiles

It's sounds like a good approach in theory but not when the service orders tests that need paying for by your insurance that aren't as credible as standard stool tests and can't actually be used alone for diagnostics.It seemed to be a big bug bear for many of the people complaining on Trust Pilot , as I assume it must affect the cost of your insurance over time if you keep getting tests for things. It does make you wonder whether the Practice as a whole gets a cash incentive for ordering certain tests from certain Companies, especially if the tests aren't proven to be reliably useful.

Even if , on the whole, the more holistic approach to treating patients and only prescribing if required from a whole body view is a good one to follow , the surgery don't do themselves, or, the reputation of a holistic approach any good by ordering tests just because they are being hailed as the new big thing in alternative health media.

To be honest , if they wanted to do stool tests for someone like yourself they'd be better choosing ones that are normally conducted to monitor inflammation etc. rather than choosing a less than reliable diagnostic company.

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