The conclusion of this article should be of interest to those trying to avoid taking bone medications for bone thinning:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
"The use of vitamin D and vitamin K2 together as an approach to osteoporosis treatment may significantly reduce morbidity and mortality. This approach may rival bisphosphonate treatment without the side effects associated with the use of this medication, along with reducing vascular calcification and its complications."
Thank you for posting this article, as calcium didn’t agree with me, will follow up on the advice.
Thanks Heron I only wish I had this two years ago.
I find this a really interesting article Heron as I have/had vascular calcification. Will this improve now I'm taking K2? I'd like to know more about the absorption when taking antibiotics for longer than 10 days. I'm on a low dose Nitrofurantoin for 4 months for bladder problems. Will this affect absorption of K2 do you know?
I think the problem is associated with K2 binding to bacteria in the gut. And conventional AB’s blitz all those bacteria as well as the ‘baddies’ they were prescribed for. Hence upset runs and diarrhoea. And one assumes this is detrimental to the K2 levels.
BUT 😃 Nitrofurantoin is a ‘bactericidal nitrofuran antibiotic. It is completely absorbed/degraded in the upper intestinal tract and therefore has no detrimental effect on gut flora.’ Hurrah! 🤗
Plus there don’t appear to be resistance issues with nitro, hence its choice for long term prophylaxis.
Oh no. Ive been on antibiotics almost non stop for last year. Keflex and augmentin. Cant take nitrofurantoin it turns me yellow. Hope my k2 hasnt all gone to waste.
I would have said.... do you bruise easily? but on pred that’s probably a daft question!
Unusual or unexpected bleeding? Might be a better question.
I don’t think blood tests for vitK are done unless a clotting problem is identified.
Are your AB’s full strength or prophylactic doses?
Both. Have had tons of antibiotics. Now on long term for constant uti's. Though getting bladder instillations to see if it will help with the uti's. The joys.
Best thing I can suggest is live yogurts, kefir, cheese, and fermented foods by the bucket load.
Re the resolution of calcified arteries: I found this: (it’s talking about rats 🐀) “However, when high-dose therapy with vitamins K1 or K2 (100 µg/g of chow) was given, the progression of calcifications ceased and there was also a 37% reduction in prior calcifications induced by warfarin. Moreover, high-dose vitamin K1 or vitamin K2 restored arterial distensibility back to that seen in control rats.38 Thus, animal data indicate that vitamin K (K1 or K2) may be able to reverse arterial calcifications and at the same time improve arterial compliance. “ (it’s talking about warfarin because W leads to inhibition of vitK aka VitK deficiency)
Read here for context, scroll down to VitaminK and Warfarin.
This is easier to read nutraceuticalbusinessreview...
Thanks Soraya, will read it later when more time but very grateful.
No idea. Soraya is the expert here. My context is simply someone who has been told in the past to take alendronic acid and refused and has managed to improve bone density by the use of such therapies as taking Vitamin K2. I don't take any other medications so this issue of warfarin is irrelevant to me. But I do think it is very interesting that the importance of both forms of Vitamin K is being recognized, even for people who have to be very careful with their intake because of being on certain types of coagulant. I posted this article because I thought it encouraging that some research has actually been done to support the views of those of us not lucky enough to live in Japan which supports the idea that Vitamin K2 is helpful for preventing and treating bone thinning.
That is interesting! Thank you for posting it!
Thank you, very interesting indeed.
Very helpful and reassuring article. Thank you.
Like the others I'm deeply grateful for this. I might take a copy to my next rheumy appointment in case she tries to persuade me to take the bisphosphonates again. Even if she's sceptical, I like to think she would at least look into alternative and less hazardous treatments.
Hi Heron,
In the article there is reference in section 3 to absorbtion of Vit K2 when on long term antibiotics. Since I find it difficult to take in meaning of information on these types of documents, and I take daily preventative antibiotics long term, does this mean I should be taking vitamin K2 because I am on long term antibiotics or does it mean no point since it won't be absorbed anyway, or does it mean vitamin K2 will interfere with the antibiotic? I am interested since I have osteoporosis and am not keen on the other choices of bone meds being advocated by Rheumy, who is keen on annual injection, since this will mean having the rest of my teeth out first! At age of 60 (in a couple of weeks time) I feel it is young for a full set of falsies particularly when I have had issues with a crumbling jaw in the past. I have flatly refused AA on the basis of family history with it and what I have read on here.
Well, not having any education in the field I can't really say. But I suspect because our gut does convert a bit of Vitamin K1 into K2, wiping out the bacteria which do this would lead to vitamin deficiency. I doubt that taking Vitamin K2 would diminish effectiveness of your antibiotic, but it might be worth a discussion with your pharmacist. If they don't know the answer they should at least be able to find out for you as they'll have access to the literature. Ir would be interesting to know, so if you find out please let us know!
Found this, which indicates it depends what antibiotic you are taking:
consumerlab.com/answers/whi...
Thanks Heron. I will check with pharmacist since you have to become a member of the site on the link and I think they charge as it requests payment type.
So your type of antibiotic wasn't on the list at the beginning?
The short term one, Cefalexin was listed at the beginning. Have just finished this but may need it again in the future. However the long term one Nitrofurantoin, which is the one I'm interested in, is not.
Yes, your pharmacist should know, or be able to find out. Good luck!
Thank you for this info. Shall definately carry on making the Kefir!
Excellent article, thank you
Before taking K2, it might be a good idea to know your prothombin time PTT. It's great if you may be prone to clots, but not so great if you are prone to bleeding. I agree K2 is a great asset for people who have had blood clots, or PTT shows shows unusually fast clotting. But if you don't have blood that clots normally or quickly enough, Vit K2 could increase bleeding or hemorrhaging. What do you think?
I think I don't need to know that. K2 is concerned with bones, K1 with blood clotting. I have no blood or cardiac issues. Most of us need K2 because we no longer get it in our food.
One would hope that anyone who does have these issues would have the sense to check into what might be a safe dose of Vitamin K2, or whether they would be better served finding food sources which contain safe and useful amounts of this vitamin.
Yes , you are right , there is a big difference between the actions of Vitamin K1 , more well studied and with greater impact on blood clotting and Vitamin K2 being more involved in calcium metabolism and better bone growth and dental restoration ( which is actually a group of three K based metabolites) . The difference is even making some researchers consider that Vitamin K2 should get a distinct classification of its own.
In fact , in the early days , as Vitamin K2 was not visibly present in the Western Industrial Diet it was sometimes known as a mystery nutrient in Simple Eastern Diets called "X".
It has now been proved to be present in diets rich in fermented vegetable and animal products.
Where K1 has shown to make little difference in increasing bone health and reducing cardiac risk , the metabolisation of calcium by K2 has shown a reduction in calcification of the arteries in some early studies of over 50%.
Researchers are trying to find more funding to test K2 as a separate entity and just how important K2 is in Cardiac Health and in reducing Dental Decay in Adults .
They are also convinced that it could become an intrinsic part of the preventative diet against the speeding up of the ageing process in people with Chronic Diseases in combination with vitamins D and A.
Obviously , as with any supplement , it is important to check if it is right for you with your particular set of health issues and medications.
Thanks; I had forgotten that there are 2 types of K with different functions.
Speaking just for myself, I will decline K2. I had hyperPARAthyroidism dx in 2012. I probably had it for a long time before. I knew something was wrong, but had to figure it out for myself. The parathyroids control calcium metabolism; probably the most vital mineral to the brain and musculoskeletal system.
I had been having slightly high calcium levels, but my Dr. attributed that to supplementation. I was having US of my thyroid glands every year or 2 b/c of some small nodules picked up by a by an integrative medicine physician (who moved too far away), who felt the right side of my neck seemed enlarged.
The US were always ok, nothing changing or growing. I went for an US in June 2012. An astute radiologist, reported that she thought she was also seeing a parathyroid adenoma. I had forgotten what parathyroids do from nursing school, so I found a great website from a surgical practice in Tampa, Florida devoted just to parathyroid surgery, and have a whole wing devoted to parathyroid surgery at Tampa General Hospital. One of their surgeons will review your relevant records if you choose. I sent them off. I got an email asking me to stop calcium for 2 days and have oxidized calcium blood levels done twice, 2 days apart. My GP ordered them for me.
At the time , I had severe osteoporosis and very soft fingernails. I got a call about 4 days later from one of their 4 surgeons who said he thought I was a candidate for surgery, reminding me I had the freedom to go to any qualified surgeon. But I decided to go to Tampa. It was scheduled, and using a minimally invasive nuclear medicine technique , they located the bad gland, removed it, photographed it and measured how much parathyroid hormone it was producing; way too much, all in 15 minutes.
My daughter came with me and we stayed at a local hotel for 1 night. The surgeon called that night to be sure all was ok. We came home the next day. It took a little over a year before all body chemistry came into alignment with a normal calcium level, and it was rough going. But then it was over, and I was back to normal.
The surgeons said to take calcium carbonate for the rest of my life. I asked, anything else? Response No. So I would personally stick with their advice.
Once 1 gland of 4 goes bad, and starts overproducing parathyroid hormone, the other glands shut down and hibernate.. The calcium does not stay in the bones or anywhere else it should be, and is dumped into the blood stream. At the surgeon's direction, I had a DEXA scan 2 years later; , osteoporosis transformed into very mild osteopenia and now with very hard fingernails.
Long story to say that I personally won't risk mucking up anything with Vit. K2. But I'm sure it's fine ; with PMR, I'll personally just stick with what I was told.
Your story is very interesting. This is the reason we advise people to make sure there are no "secondary" reasons for bone thinning before agreeing to take medication. It seems the parathyroid situation is not uncommon, although your case sounds like it was very serious. So glad you were so well treated for it.
Vit K doesn't INCREASE the risk of bleeding, it is a factor in clotting and is used as an antidote in patients on warfarin-like anticoagulants whose INR has risen to a high level putting them at risk of excessive bleeding. So it isn't a benefit for patients with a history of clotting problems. It is fine for patients on warfarin PROVIDING they keep an eye on their INR and take the stuff regularly - but not otherwise. Vit K plays no role in the coagulation changes experienced by patients on the direct acting anticoagulants.
Wow, that’s very interesting. Thanks for sharing this! 👍🏼
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