Dr David Morris - essential viewing video on B12 def.

[auldreekie]

vimeo.com/891099138/4150efa...

I've posted this because it has some amazing information which lots of people seem not to have managed to get hold off any other way!! No surprise there considering...

[Sea-blue]

Thankyou so much for posting this. Listened to all of it. One of the good guys

[Cherylclaire Forum Support]

Thanks - always useful to hear an informed medical professional's opinion on B12 deficiency detection and treatment.

A clear explanation of the complex process B12 from food (extrinsic factor) has to go through, including recirculation - and the conclusion that this must be an extremely important vitamin for the body to work that hard to retain it certainly seems to make sense.

Lithium hair test - anyone here had that ?

[Nackapan]

Thankyou.I tried to 'like ' but wouldn't do it earlier??

[auldreekie in reply to Nackapan]

Have to spread all we find don't we!!

[Cornwaller]

V good.

[WIZARD6787]

Yes, I found this video very helpful. Seems to me he is a student of B12 rather than accepting the status quo.

[GalDriver]

I'm listening to it now and it stopped me in my tracks when he said "avoid folic acid like the plague"???!!! I only started taking because it was recommended (on here, I think) to take it if self-injecting, which I am. Could someone please clarify/explain this for me, please?

[Nackapan in reply to GalDriver]

400mcg recommended daily by NHS for all women of chikd bearing age.

I took this dose to raise folate levels.

Still take 200mcg every other day.

No ill effects .

So don't know why to avoid it ??

[GalDriver in reply to Nackapan]

Thanks, as I thought. I'll listen again but I'm pretty sure that's what he said.

[Regenallotment in reply to GalDriver]

He definitely did say that, more than once, it was related to there being new evidence that folic acid is less bioavailable and can bind to receptors actually stopping folate absorption, there’d counter productive. Methyl folate is the way to go if supplementing but he says address b12 first not together but wasn’t specific about a time period. 👍

[GalDriver in reply to Regenallotment]

Oh, is methylfolate supplement easy to source?

[Regenallotment in reply to Nackapan]

GalDriver I wonder if that relates to the MTHFR gene mutation many of us with autoimmune conditions seem to have. I use a methylfolate supplement rather than folic acid. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[auldreekie in reply to Regenallotment]

I do that too. But I do wonder if increased urination could be counter productive ..in particular low bp when blood volume needs to be optimum. Thoughts anyone?

[Regenallotment in reply to auldreekie]

If my FT3 is optimal (not too high in range or over range) and I stay off sugar my urination definitely reduces. Dehydration definitely linked for me to low BP and afternoon fatigue, have a bottle of water in the car for the commute home and that really helps. Fascinating 🤨

[GalDriver in reply to Regenallotment]

Oh, is methylfolate supplement easy to source?

[Regenallotment in reply to GalDriver]

Yep (I am in the UK) I use the Healthleads one and buy on Amazon and other supplement websites 🌱

[GalDriver in reply to Regenallotment]

Oh, is methylfolate supplement easy to source?

[Technoid in reply to GalDriver]

well spotted GalDriver , I covered this in my reply posted below. It is indeed quite an outrageous and unjustified statement.

[Regenallotment]

this was so informative!

Thanks for sharing 🌱

[auldreekie]

I started SI again a year back because GP wouldn't re-instate 3 monthly injections. I asked him over and over why was I weeing so

much...then it dawned...

Back in 2012 when he first conceeded I needed injections he rang me to say I needed a prescription for folate. He has obviously forgotten that. I researched per above this yime around. Don't make it easy do they??

[Technoid]

There is some good information in the video but there are a couple things I take issue with:

(1) Claiming that Hydroxocobalamin "may just be a breakdown product, we're not sure is entirely natural"

Hydroxocobalamin is just as much a natural form of B12 as Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin. It can be found in animal products along with other forms. In the metabolism of B12, as it is absorbed into cells it is broken down to Hydroxocobalamin. along the way but not as a "breakdown product" but an intermediate stage before it is converted into methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.

(2) He claims that Adenosylcobalamin is often lacking in the diet.

Where is the evidence for this? Besides which, we know that all forms of B12 are disassembled to the base cobalamin structure before being rebuilt so it doesnt make any sense to claim that reduced consumption of one particular form would have any appreciable effect.

(3) Stating "we're still using cyanocobalamin 80 years on"

Yes because its fairly cheap, much more stable than the co-enzyme forms, works well and it is the form of B12 which has the most evidence for its efficacy in the treatment and prevention of B12 deficiency. In fact, some registered dietitians specifically recommend cyanocobalamin B12 over all other forms because of this strong evidence base and either do not recommend the other forms at all or advise much higher doses be taken if the co-enzyme forms are used.

clivealive has been doing fine on Cyanocobalamin for decades.

(4) Claiming that Cyanocoblamin needs to be methylated

As I stated above, all B12 is broken down to the base cobalamin and needs to be methylated. That is just as much the case for methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin as it is for cyanocobalamin. It should also be noted that there are other dietary sources of methyl groups e.g. TMG/Choline. In fact, some research states that we receive more of our methyl groups from choline than any other source.

(5) He claims that Cyanocobalamin can increase cyanide to toxic levels in smokers

What is the source for this claim?

Vegan Health cover one associated study:

"The Vitamins and Lifestyle Cohort is a prospective, observational study from the state of Washington. It found an increase in lung cancer among male smokers in the highest B12 intake group of 55–275 µg/day (Brasky, 2017). However, Obeid and Pietrzik argued, with supporting evidence, that this is likely due to reverse causality in which smokers, knowing they were at risk for health problems, were more likely to take B vitamins (Obeid, 2018)."

from veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12...

(6) He claims that viable B12 can be found in seaweed

While some usable B12 has been found in SOME seaweeds prepared in specific ways, many of them contain B12 analogs and in no way should be recommended or claimed to be a viable source of B12 since the analogs may actually interfere with human-viable B12 function.

More information here: veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12...

(7) He claims that "studies consistently demonstrate that up to 50% of vegetarians and 80% of vegans are deficient in vitamin B12"

Well, a recent systematic review and meta-analysis of seventh day adventists found that "Adventists following a vegan or vegetarian diet did not demonstrate increased risk of vitamin B12 deficiency due to the widespread consumption of fortified foods and supplements"

I think the importance of vegan B12 supplementation and the knowledge of how to do so safely is growing. It is and always will be an area of concern but we shouldnt overinflate the issue.

(8) Asking people to "please avoid folic acid like the plague"

Now. I am not a fan of this seemingly facebook-derived trend of using daily 5mg folic acid supplementation, particularly in the absence of deficiency. I have called it a cult because I think that it is like some kind of mind virus that has been spread with no logic or evidence behind why it would be necessary.

But I think its possible to go too far and scaring people about folic acid to the extent that he is doing here is unwarranted. There is good evidence that a moderate dosage of 400mcg of folic can be helpful if there is an absorption issue, or if the diet is low in folate and does not meet RDA's for someone's stage of life. There is no evidence that 400mcg of folic acid is unsafe and that it should be "avoided like the plague".

A final note: it is probably not a coincidence that this presentation is being hosted by Cytoplan, a supplement company, since one of the main intended takeaways is how scary folic acid is and how you "must" take an alternate form, like methylfolate or folinic acid. I think, if you are taking very high doses, like over 1mg, then methylfolate or folinic may be a better choice but a lower dosages, there is no reason (and no evidence base) that justifies scaring people about folic acid to this degree.

It may work to sell supplements, as methylfolate and folinic acid are a lot more expensive than folic acid but I doubt that making supplement companies richer is something most people here want to do.

There's plenty of skepticism about big pharma going around, perhaps some of this skepticism should also be brought to bear on big supplement?

[auldreekie in reply to Technoid]

Thank you for your critique. Very enlightening all points beyond my awareness...until now. On the final point it is always wise to be alert to bais and the supplement co link did peek my awareness. I am under the impression that the dietry (animal and human) supplement 'industry' is of a value in the 44 billion dollar area so circumspection is essential.

I think we (I?) can be forgiven for getting enthused when someone goes over and above the normal level of interest in B12 deficiency and is prepared to contribute to the debate and is seen to be helping others (Dr Morris's email is available - unlike most of our GP's!) without (at least from what I can see) a cut from big pharma.

[Tanitha in reply to Technoid]

I agree that the fact the presentation is hosted by Cytoplan shouldn't go unnoticed here and we should always be mindful of being influenced into buying branded products without researching - I had in fact purchased hydroxocobalamin tablets from this company a number of years ago. On balance I think Dr Morris' presentation is interesting and combines many of the areas I have been researching as a layperson over many years in an effort to restore my health. He pretty much describes what I have experienced and many of the conclusions I had come to.

[Technoid in reply to Tanitha]

Yes, there is much good information in the video, it might sound like I'm being harsh but thats not intended and I appreciate the knowledge sharing, just wanted to clarify a few things I think are misleading.

A reminder to newer members that many useful resources that have been posted on the forum over some years have been collected by jade_s in this pinned post:

healthunlocked.com/pasoc/po...

[auldreekie in reply to Technoid]

Yes and thanks again. It was sent to me here couple of months back. I was relieved to see a Dr who was showing some interest at least!!

[Tanitha in reply to Technoid]

I don’t think your comments harsh at all - in fact agree with them. It is such comments which make people think and question which can only be a good thing and one of the reasons why this forum is invaluable.