I'm new here so you know what that means...(dumb questions). Since I don't want to go the gp route with the all the hassles and expense. I've decided to go rogue and try to hack this issue. I'm wondering if someone else is doing or has done this before...
I bought some Methylcobalamin 1000 mcg capsules, syringes. I mistakenly thought I would dissolve the powder from the capsules in distilled water then load and "fire". Problem is, it really didn't dissolve completely as planned. So I gave it a college try anyway. After my second attempt, I got penetration only to find out when I tried to inject the liquid it burned like heck. I now believe I might needed to mix the powder with saline solution and buy a vial bottle to make filling the syringe easier. Any thoughts and tips would be greatly appreciated. (I may look back on this experience and laugh...)
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dogmman10
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You actually need to buy b12 in an injectable form, unless you have the scientific knowledge and access to the ingredients! I would advise against trying to mix your own as I think that could be dangerous. Better to purchase Ampoules made for injection.
I would seriously advise that you do not inject the Methylcobalamin powder from capsules...not sterile and not of injectable formulation / quality.
I'm with Carpabob on this one...buy injectable sterile ampules of B12.
I see that @fbirder has, in one of your previous posts, outlined why Hydroxocobalamin may be as suitable as Methylcobalamin. Hydroxocobalamin is not expensive (and certainly cheaper than Methylcobalamin capsules - and a lot safer).
Also - not so sure it's a good idea to go down the B12 treatment path with no proof of deficiency, no attempt at proper diagnosis, and no (at least) initial GP input.
Also - and I'm sorry to say this - I find myself wondering if this is a serious post? If it is, then a humble apology!
If you could give more information about your medical condition, it would make it easier for people here to offer appropriate advice.
If you want any further help, then please post again and people can direct you to appropriate guidelines that will help you with your GP.
I'm reluctant to go to a GP and get the go around. Personally I'm very jaded by doctors in general. Actually, I seriously believe most are quacks. When I consider all the bad advise they're giving the patients I cringe. Remember the low fat diets and how people get fatter and diabetic... I digress.
The problem I have with buying B12 injections from who know where is the phony set ups for get the "consultation". And the high cost...
I've read some of the comments from others who have gone to their GP and told that their levels are fine when it's anything but fine.
Hydroxocobalamin , from what I've read in the inactive form of B12. Methylcobalamin is the the active form. That's primarily what I'm interested in if I have a choice. Let's face it, you can be almost certain everyone is deficient in B12. And since B12 is said to be safe a reasonable dose of say once a week for several weeks should provide some feedback as to its efficacy.
My symptoms are general low energy similar to several years ago when I had low blood platelets ITP. Some dizziness a times, muscles aches and maybe loss of hearing and border- line high blood pressure. Then again I guess these symptoms could be caused by just about anything. My main objective is to give it try and see attitude.
I can understand yourfeelings regarding the gp however before supplementing you should at least find out what your b12 level is. Yes the gp may tell you it's normal if it's in range but you can ask what the number is and then decide on your treatment. I am one of the ones with B12 in the low end of the range and I have had to fight to get injections but to be fair I haven't had as difficult a fight as many. I had to write to my gp and then asked for a referral, this has led to a five week trial of alternate day injections.
There is much debate on the best form of b12 and it's not something I know much about and as foggyme says you have had some info on that.
Methylcobalamin is expensive though whilst hydroxocobalamin is relatively cheap and available to purchase without consultation or prescription from a number of countries Germany is where I see most people purchase from. I haven't looked at methylcobalamin so have no idea if it can be bought without consultation.
There are two active forms of B12 that the body needs - methyl and adenosyl. Neither are particularly stable which is one reason why they can be a bit more expensive.
There are some documented cases where people have genetic variants that stop them converting methyl to adenosyl - seems to be rare but it is a possibility.
MTHFR genetic variants can affect your ability to convert hydroxo and cyano to the active forms - methyl and adenosyl - but this only makes it less efficient doesn't shut it down completely so using more frequent doses of hydroxo - which is more stable should work fine. MTHFR tends to have more effect on ability to process folate and folic acid ... and some people actually get on very badly with methylated forms so go slowly on that.
This article - from the pinned posts - discusses methylcobalamin and points out that hydroxo can actually be better for some.
Injecting is an extreme option. Some people experience functional deficiency when levels in their blood are high and for my family this seems to be quite significant - though this isn't based on any scientific study just on personal experience. Both my mother and myself - who received loading doses on a formal diagnosis of B12 find that we actually need to keep our levels of B12 ridiculously high to beat functional deficiency. My brother and aunt, who hasn't gone down the formal diagnosis route, seem to manage extremely well on much lower doses delivered using a nasal spray.
I had loading doses and maintenance doses for a year and was getting worse because of functional deficiency. It wasn't until I started using a nasal spray (in very high frequent doses) that I actually started to get better.
Dogman10. I agree with all that CarpaBob , wedgewood and PAS-admin have said.
Can I just add that if you do start to supplement B12, in any form, this will skew any blood tests for B12 deficiency, in the future. You would then struggle to get a diagnosis and would never know if this was, in fact, the problem.
The symptoms you have, as you recognise, could be due to many things, and the danger is that if you 'treat test' for B12, then you may be missing other things that need treatment.
In particular, as you have had low platelets (thrombocytopenia) in the past, then you really need to find out if this has returned. So, blood test with the GP...and why not let him pull in B12 for good measure (before you risk skewing the tests).
Low platelets can be caused by a number of things (for instance, the use of certain drugs, infection by heliobactor pylori, autoimmune disease, vitamin deficiency (folate and / or B12 deficiency etc). Although B12 deficiency can be one cause, you will not know if low platelets is the issue and B12 would not deal with the heliobactor infection or address any potential folate issues. If the is any autoimmune connection (for instance, pernicious anaemia), then this would need to be investigated.
Also - your 'borderline' high blood pressure (hypertension) should be checked and monitored by a GP.
Also - your symptoms could be due to many other causes, which will not be identified and go unaddressed.
Why do I say all this...simply to try and highlight the fact that you really need to at least get your GP to run some bloods before you attempt self-treatment.
We all know that GP's can be ill informed about B12 deficiency and that some are quite difficult to deal with. But I do think that seeing you GP first is the safest course for you to take if you are to deal successfully with whatever is ailing you 😀.
And please, please, do not attempt to inject the Methylcobalamin powder from capsules....you could do yourself harm and just make a bad situation very much worse.
There are people here to help,you through this, if needed.
Yes I agree with you about bring safe taking B12, in South Africa we were able to just how to the chemist and get a B12 injection no problem, a lot of us did it and felt great for 2-3 month, unless you are planning on taking it weekly 😊
You only need injections if you have Pernicious Anaemia ,i.e. A B12 absorbtion problem . If you don't have P . A . taking B12 in tablet form should help . Methylcobalamin is only needed if you have a conversion issue , because Hydroxocobalamin converts in your body to Methyl .
Are you vegan , strict vegetarian, do you take any B12-robbing medications e.g, metformin for diabetes , PP inhibitors for acid reflux eg Omeprazole etc . ?
Need to know much more about your situation before you start any injecting .
have an absorbtion problem i.e. Pernicious anaemia . If you don't have P.A. They should work . Best of all , take a vitamin B complex tablet , and see how you get on . You don't yet know what the cause of your low B12 is , do you ?
The premises of my interest in taking B12 was to see if I would feel a real difference in energy level not that I'm dragging my butt or having depression, weight or sleep problems etc.
I don't need to launch a full investigation into wanting to try B12 injections for say 6 weeks or so. I operative word and i emphasize here is "try". If B12 is so safe as everyone admits then why screw around?
You don't even know íf you have a B12 deficiency/absorption disorder. If you don't you can just take the capsules you bought and they will work perfectly.
If you do have a B12 absorption disorder, even then the capsules might work. But sublinguals would work better and injections of course would work. Yes, B12 is safe, but as with anything you take and more so when you inject, there is a risk of an allergy. And if you inject in the wrong way that can give complications as well.
Because you do not want to go to a doctor, and you don't even know if you are B12 deficient, take some sublinguals and see if they help. You don't have that many symptoms, and if it hasn't been that long, you should feel something within a couple of weeks.
Of all the people who've checked into this site has anyone had good levels of B12? I'm not trying to be a smart ass just asking. I'd be willing to bet hardly anyone has sufficient B12 in their body.
Any thought on snorting the B12 powder ? From what I understand B12 taken orally has to pass digestive road blocks i.e. intrinsic factor... Why diddle around . On a different subject I know numerous people with thyroid problems who rely on TSH test and still don't feel well but the test are fine. My point is you can test test test till the cows come home. It's how you feel that matters.
Hope I'm not wearing your patience as I have a way of pushing the limit at times.
There is a point to testing, but we won't go into that again.
Your other post was about snorting the powder, I answered there. Use a nose spray if you want.
Anyway, Sublingual does NOT pass your stomach, no IF needed. Besides, you might not have any problem with IF. You don't know. So you can take any tablet you like and try to see if it helps your symptoms.
Treat it like a test if you want.
If the capsules you bought work, you're fine. If they don't, get sublinguals or the nose spray or patches. Try those.
If that doesn't work, then you see again.
That's all I can say. I don't know why you would want to make it more complicated than that.
I guess you're right. I really just wanted to get the B12 of my preference and the shoot the stuff in my leg. I might go out on the porch drink a six pack and smoke pack of cigarettes . No prescription or test needed for that. Not complicated there.
B12 tablets are sublingual (let them dissolve under your tongue) making presence or absence of intrinsic factor in the gut, fairly immaterial.
I've chosen to bypass the gp too Dogmman10. I have MS and over the years the GPs have had no interest/time to investigate anything further.
I recently bought some powdered methyl B12 from Oxford Bioscience to mix with saline (from another supplier). I'd been using sublingual B12 before that to treat a variety of symptoms that came on about 13 years ago. MS diagnosis was about 22 years ago. Get methyl B12 drops for under the tongue which get absorbed even quicker through the thin skin under the tongue.
After years of sublingual my B12 level at the GPs was high (up in the 800s) but the moons on my fingers had disappeared,Pins and needles have become so regular as to not be worth mentioning, I've had cracks at the corners of my mouth and irregular crushing fatigue.
In answer to a question you'd posed?
I'd had stupidly high levels of B12 last time checkt at docs.
Hi doze, Refreshing to see someone else who's chosen to bypass the GPs . I'm looking into Alternative Med. My issues involve going for repeat visits, time out from work and the cost involved. I mean can I expect the health doctor to just hand me a B12 script. Would be nice but that won't happen.
I'm presently using methyl B12 capsules one a day. See how that works...
Could be better, but could be an awful lot worse too. There were no ms meds when i was diagnosed age 20, I kicked off when they became available in the US but not the UK.
Then the interferons came over here so i read up about them and didn't want to take every other day injections for a less than 50/50 chance of anything working. I'm not freaked about injections rather taking ineffective treatment!
I kind of stopt talking to the neuro when, on hearing I'd been reading up on the trial data of the different treatments that he wished I hadn't!
'They' don't necessarily know any more than us. It's not the NHS's fault it was built before the onslaught of chronic conditions encouraged by the toxins we put in ourselves (and the planet).
Try the methyl sublinguals - swallowing isn't the best way to ingest anything except food. It has to pass through the liver (I think) before it can begin to get where it's needed.
I think it gets into the bloodstream more efficiently bypassing the stomach as you'd read?
Good luck on your travels. It's strengthening to feel empowered isn't it?
glad to have found this place they have more specialised knowledge than I do.
Thanks for checked back and the encouragement . I'm reading a rather interesting book (at least I think so) . It's called The Microbiome Solution by Robynn Chukka. It mentions MS.
When I finish my bottle of Methy B12 I'll give the sublinguals a try.
I believe many doctors almost hate informed patients who ask questions, who want to be empowered and aren't afraid to say no to their meds with all the side effects. Since i found this site I've learned a"few" things.
book sounds intresting. After reading celebrity neuro's book, Brain Maker (David Perlmutter, I found the UK Co that did FMT for one of his US patients with MS and went to talk to them.
Fascinating stuff (I have a think about it here chronicalternatives.co.uk/2... but it would cost more than twice the price of my car which doesn't really work for me right now?
I'm also too much of a stress head at present to not waste the expense of a week's worth of someone else's poo! (bacteria REALLY don't like stress as I'm guessing you've been reading?).
For the moment I'll put a little more time into mindful breathing, living and thinking.
Hi Doze , I really like David Perlmutter's Brain Maker book . Someone else you might enjoy is William Davis, Wheat Belly yes these are doctors and I don't think of them as Quacks LOL.
Someone else's poo ????? I'll give them all the want, just pay postage.
dogmman10 Do NOT inject the powder from capsules, that is not suitable for injection! It's dangerous to do this. There are many places you can buy B12 for injection, and relatively cheap. BUT I also do not recommend injecting without medical supervision. Even though the chance is small, there is a chance of an allergic reaction. Just get your level tested, it is relatively easily done and then you know more. If you do not have an absorption disorder (there are more than just PA) you can just take sublinguals/tablets in any B12 form you like. If you do not have any neurological symptoms, you can also do that instead of injections if you really don't want to get tested. Hydroxocobalamin is perfectly fine. All B12 foms, including methyl have to be metabolized. But please do not just self inject and absolutely not powder from capsules. Take care.
Thank you for the good advise. I'll keep it in mind.
Ooh goodness dogmman10 that sounds terribly risky and downright dangerous!
It's simple enough to get your B12 tested (and with it folate and ferritin as well since those nutrients are heavily involved) - I've just done it via finger prick mail order kit from Medichecks (there are other online providers as well) and from those results you can get plenty of advice from folk here as to whether your levels are high enough. Probably wouldn't hurt to get your thyroid panel done as well, again so many tests available online. Get all the information first, is my advice. I'm still sorting out various pills and potions now I have my results, and haven't been near my GP as yet (will do in early Sept) when I plan to show her what I've found out so far. Even if she says it's all 'normal' at least I have my info and a plan of attack!
For Pete's sake why would a thinking person go back to GP god. If you have your results why bother showing her what you found out so far. Sounds like a child. If your an adult act like one. No one cares about your health more than you.
No one may care about your health more than you (although injecting unknown substances doesn't seem too caring). But caring is not enough - you need somebody that knows about your health, what may be wrong with it and how to fix that.
And you aren't going to get that sort of information from the internets unless you have the right training and experience is sorting decent information from the piles and piles of rubbish out there.
That's why a thinking person would first seek out a healthcare professional.
You're more likely to get good information from the web, books and the public library than your quack GP . That's why I'm asking question here. If a supplement ingredients states pure Methylcobalamin is that an unknown substance? Not sure if you realize this. In the US a least, the third lead cause of death is medical related. Yet, hardly anyone gives it much thought except thinking people like myself.
A thinking person would have realised that a capsule containing 1000 ug of B12 couldn't possibly be pure methylcobalamin. 1000 ug is about three grains of salt. So, unless your capsule was minute, the vast majority of what you were attempting to inject was other stuff; stuff whose composition and toxicity you were completely ignorant of.
it is ludicrous that the medical profession has a special word for 'harm caused by doctor's action' (and/or inaction) Iatrogenic. Also, why does the profession need to give a special word to 'we don't know' idiopathic.
we're all mostly grown up? As soon as we're able to own up to not knowing the world the better state we'll all be in.
I'll get my healthcare from a number of sources:
papers on the internet (pubmed is a good resource although not as good as it was)
Forums, like this one have their place but mostly stick to referenced works?
GPs (write down what it is we want from them). They're only human, just like us? (I know I forget important bits otherwise).
Unlike an adverse event, an iatrogenic effect is not always harmful. For example, a scar created by surgery is said to be iatrogenic even though it does not represent improper care and may not be troublesome.
thanks Helvella for your point about scars. More often iatrogenic's being used to describe the overprescription of say pain meds which can then lead to addiction, abuse and death issues?
Pubmed has a lot more sponsored stuff put into it to benefit pharmaceutical companies. I don't know when this started, in the last 10 or 20 years?
In press releases for new products pharma marketeers are able to reference a reputable site whilst the paper about what their product addresses isn't necessarily science newsworthy.
Where real hypotheses are being examined it's great still but arguably it's become a destination to provide fodder for astroturfing?
Another fascinating word not just referring to its misuse (but mostly).
Also, why does the profession need to give a special word to 'we don't know' idiopathic.
Why?
For the same reason that they use a special word for 'not having enough of the metal that we get from the red rock inside the small round things floating about in the liquid that's inside our bodies'.
For the same reason they have a special word for 'a thing originating from moulds that kills the small round or oval things that sometimes get inside our bodies and make them go wrong'.
For the same reason they have two special words for 'that thing where, for unknown reasons, the white stuff - around the long stringy things that carry that stuff like weak lightning - becomes damaged.
When I first read hack, I didn't realize how rogue you would go.
The others have warned you off doing crazy stuff like cooking up you own injections.
A B12 deficiency (B12D) is serious from multiple points of view. There are many different symptoms that do not all manifest at the same time.
GPs tend to diagnose the first symptom the see. Usually misdiagnosis get it for something else. That said GPs are not useless and should be considered a partner in tackling the problem which is the deficiency and all of it ramifications.
If you think you have any of the symptoms, start a log book and assess a severity score for each symptom. If it is really a deficiency, the symptoms will not disappear overnight, they will continue to get worse.
When you start with B12 supplements or injections, additional symptoms ( very similar ones ) appear between 3 and 48 hours later so hacking this (sorting out the causes of the symptoms) is confusing. The ones from the injection repeat in the same pattern so that is a start.
When you finally decide to get a doctor involved, the logbook also provide a good set of evidence that is needed to be confident of the diagnosis. Of course, initially you will be treated as a nutter or at least a hypochondriac. This is a phase we all go through in trying to get more frequent injections. Documentation is what is needed and usually the GPs fob around building up the evidence.
If you are just looking for an energy boost, the energy drinks do a pretty good job as they contain B12 too.
Hey pvanderaa thanks and I appreciate your comment . I've been to enough GPs in the past and they really annoy me with dumb ways of turning me into a cash cow. Put you on some med and get you to see them every 3 months for your "condition".
No respectable GP will listen to the patient. No matter what or how many papers of information you come in with. Yes, I was treated like a nutter when I asked too many questions before . They real don't have your interest at heart. Their goal is to get you on a least 3 medications and send you on your merry way.
I'm honestly going to check into finding someone other than an allopathic quack who understands my needs. If that's at all possible.
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they have more specialised knowledge than I do.
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