New here and struggling advice needed please

Hello all.  I'm new here and first, I'd like to say that its been heart breaking and shocking to read of all of your struggles to get appropriate treatment.

Here's a bit about me.

In July 2011 I was diagnosed with vitamin B12 deficiency, was given six loading doses of B12 and commenced 3 monthly injections. I was told that I did not have pernicious anaemia but would need B12 injections for life. The initial loading doses made me feel much better but I found that I was running out so quickly and constantly waiting for a top up to feel better again. Fog, pain, neurology and all the other nasties did not go away completely.

Two weeks ago I asked for more B12 (because of ongoing neurological symptoms) which my GP very reluctantly agreed to (following a discussion with Martyn, I outlined treatment guidelines). I persuaded the surgery to let me self inject (I'm an ex-nurse). Bloods were taken and two days latter I was told to 'stop treatment immediately' and 'under no circumstances given myself any more B12': my B 12 levels were 'too high'.

I went back to the GP and was told that the nurse had looked it up and that I have vitamin B12 toxicity and no more B12 would be given until the levels were 'normal' again. FBC screen was normal, as were thyroid, liver function, serum folate and other tests. No B12 'functionality' tests have been done. (Reviewing the results I've noticed that my Serum ferritin might be a little low at 14ug/L - normal range listed as 10.00 - 420.00 ug/L).

I have been referred to a neurologist (pins and needles, stumbling, difficulty swallowing, problems with vision, numbness and tingling in neck and across shoulders etc. etc.).  The GP reluctantly agreed to also re-refer me back to a gastrologist (ongoing stomach problems - a year ago I was acutely ill with diahorrea and vomiting and lost two stone in 5 weeks. Treated for Heliobactor, been on PPI's for several years and endoscopy showed inflammation and tissue granulation through the whole gastric lining. Multiple biopsies normal).

I asked for a copy of the blood result and my medical records happened to be printed in the same document.  This is what I learnt.

In 2012 I was diagnosed with pernicious anaemia, but never told. First serum B12 level was 188 ng/L (normal range listed as 220 - 700 ng/L.).  18 months later, post-treatment the level was still only 206ng/L. This has gradually crept up to 2000ng/L, the point where treatment was stopped because of the high level!

Considering my past medical history (investigations for MS and Lupus (all clear) and diagnosed with ME, CFS, Fibromyalgia) and the ongoing stomach problems, what I have read over the past two weeks leads me to think I may have had undiagnosed B12 deficiency for many years.

I now feel extremely ill!  My score on the PAS check list is 73. I am concerned that neurological damage is being done and may become permanent if I am not treated with more B12 soon. But my GP says the neurology is due to B12 toxicity and I can't have any more!

So, a catch 22.  If I am B12 deficient and don't inject, the damage will get worse. If I am B12 toxic and I do inject, that damage will get worse.

I don't think I can afford to wait several months for the NHS appointments so...

I would really welcome your thoughts.  Am I right to be concerned? Is there such a thing as B12 toxicity? Could I have had a functional B12 deficiency which has 'righted' itself so I really don't need the extra B12? Is my Serum ferritin low (as above) and will this make a difference?

My main questions are: has anybody out there manage to find a gastrologist in the Leicestershire area who is sympathetic to all things B12 deficient / PA? Is it worth trying to get a private appointment? And have you been able to have an initial private consultation and then transfer to the NHS. If any body could email me with information or recommendations it would be very much appreciated.

I've spoken to Martyn (I received his book yesterday), been in touch with, and am working my way through all your posts and the PAS website. I'm also taking note of potential blood tests I may need etc., and the advice that has been given to others.

I've had so many 'light-bulb' moments whilst doing this and for the first time in a very long time I think I might not be going mad!

This seems to be a long post but it's really helped me put my thoughts together and try to 'think' a way forward. It would be good to hear from anybody out there and especially to hear any thoughts on B12 toxicity.

Foggy (always). Me (I think I'm still in there somewhere).

57 Replies

  • I'm just off the see my doc, so this will have to be quick.

    There's no such thing as B12 levels being 'too high'. Nor is B12 toxicity real.

  • Thank you for the very useful information fbirder.  I think I'm going to have a real battle on my hands with GP.  All she wants to do is re-test my B12 levels in two weeks.  Based on what I've read so far this will be a completely useless activity. Her opinion is so fixed I do not think her position will change. But I'll keep trying. 

  • All the experts say there's no need to retest. Have a look through my summary. It includes links to the original documents...

    D'oh. I've just seen that Polaris has already posted it!

  • Many thanks fbirder. I'm getting on with reading all the things I've been directed to. I guess I now have to decide whether to self treat.  And I'll also go back to my GP - this time armed with bits of paper.

    Hope all went well with your doctor's appointment.

    I'll let you know how it goes.

    Thank you

  • I'm so shocked that you were diagnosed with PA in 2012 and now told you cannot have injections because your serum B12 is too high!

    The BMJ research document, as well as BCSH guidelines, states that further testing of these levels is not required after treatment with injections is already in place - please see bottom of page 4 under:

    'How is Response to Treatment Assessed - "

    "Cobalamin and holotranscobalamin levels are not helpful because they increase with vitamin B12 influx regardless of the effectiveness of treatment,24 and retesting"

    As you probably already know, treatment for PA is for life and your neurological symptoms should be treated according to the BNF (BCSH) guidelines: 

    "The BNF advises that patients presenting with neurological symptoms should receive 1000 g i.m. on alternative days until there is no further improvement." 

    FBirder has summarised BCSH, NICE, etc. guidelines and BMJ research on B12 deficiency:

    Re. Gp/gastrologist in the Leicestershire area, I don't know whether this video will help you find one. It seems that Tracy Witty is in this area and her website is:

    Very best wishes and I hope you are able to get adequate treatment soon.

  • Thanks for your response Polaris.  Yes, I was shocked too! The worst thing for me was the level of hostility because I'd dared to ask for more and point out the treatment guidelines to her! Not to mention the lack of treatment.

    I'm looking at the information you sent and when I have the energy I'm going to write to the surgery and include copies of all the relevant guidelines and ask them to recommence treatment (once every other day until there is no further improvement).

    I've also email asking if they can offer any advice re: gastrologists etc. in my area.

    Thank you so much

  • "In 2012 I was diagnosed with pernicious anaemia, but never told"

    So sorry to hear that this has happened to you but sadly its not the first time on this forum that someone has discovered that they were diagnosed with PA and were not told.

    For people who are unhappy or want to complain.....

    If people are unhappy with treatment it is possible to make a formal complaint but I would caution people that this might give people a reputation of being difficult. I am wary of complaining, due to fear of being blacklisted.

    I know of 2 people who started procedures for formal complaints but it was extrememly difficult for them and in one case unsuccessful. I did not find PALS helpful. a link about writing to medics when unhappy with treatment

    PAS support group

    There is as far as I know a Leicestershire PAS support group. If you scroll down the page in this link to post on 15th Nov, the details of the support group are in one of the news items.


    "my GP says the neurology is due to B12 toxicity "

    I personally haven't come across any research that indicates that high B12 levels are toxic. I have come across info that suggests that treating a folic acid deficiency without first treating a co-existing B12 deficiency may cause problems. See Management section in next link.


    MPs can be useful in getting answers from officials who do not answer queries from members of the public.

    Martyn Hooper's blog

    I found it interesting to look at Martyn's blog...there may be posts that are relevant to your situation.

  • Thank you for all the information and comments. 

    Folic acid test was not done so no idea if this is a problem - another test to put on the list?

    I'd be a little wary of going down the formal complaint route - I think I'm already classed as being a bit difficult simply for asking for more B12 and being blacklisted could only make things worse.  I'm going to explore the self treatment option (I'm increasingly suspicious of the B12 toxicity 'thing')and simultaneously try and find a consultant who will at least treat me in line with current advised medical practice and advise my GP accordingly.

    I'll also take a look at Martyn's blog but I'll keep the MP thing up my sleeve until I have more energy.

    Thank you again for taking the time to write a post - I'll let you know how it goes (are we supposed to do things like that here?).


  • Its good to get an update from people.

  • Shocked but sadly not surprised.  Two weeks ago I saw a haematologist and he told me that at 750 my levels are too low for someone who is on monthly injections and he is doing tests to find out why this might be. Apparently my levels should be about 2000!!   As far as I know there is no evidence that someone can overdose on b12 because it is a water soluble vitamin.

    There is no consistency is there? Good luck with getting it all sorted.

  • It looks as if 2000 one week post injection is not so bad then! And unlikely to be toxic, if such a thing exists! Reassuring news. Thank you and I hope the tests go well.

  • I thought I was impossible to overdose on B12.

  • All the advice and information pointed to is leading me to that conclusion as well! I need more - not less!

  • Heaven alone knows where 'B12 toxicity' comes from!

    The treatment for cyanide poisoning is 5g of hydroxocobalamin (ie 5000 x the amount in a shot) administered intravenously over 15 minutes with a follow up treatment after 30 minutes if required.

    The EFSA (European Food Standards Agency) does not provide an upper limit for B12 supplementation on the grounds that no one has ever been able to identify any toxicity problems with B12

    refer to the section on cobalamin/B12

    Some people do have an auto-immune response to high levels of B12 in serum - a protein that binds to the B12 and stops it from passing into cells where it is needed. Keep the levels of B12 in your serum so high that your body can't bind it all.  

    Possible that this may be what is going on with you.  There isn't much literature out there on how to treat this - though generally treating with really high doses seems to be the way to go from what little I've been able to find and from my own experience and that of my mother.

    Unfortunately waiting for your levels to go down below this thresholds is likely to take a very long time, during which cells will effectively be completely starved of B12 - really dangerous to health

    These are some links to research and articles on this - called Functional B12 deficiency

    Note: would be possible to read the last article as saying that high serum B12 should be avoided but actually it is saying that high B12 can be a an early warning sign of other conditions so that the cause of high levels of B12 should be investigated.

  • Thank you gambit62. Not something I'd come across yet so I'll delve into what you've sent and see if it sheds any more light into the murky corners of the B12 deficient.  Once again, more B12 seems to be the answer!

  • Hello Gambit62.

    I've downloaded the documents from the sites you sent and had a quick read of what you've sent. Brilliant source of information. I'll be reading 'properly' tomorrow morning before my brain runs out.

    I couldn't access the full paper at so I've cheekily email the author and asked if he has a copy he can email.

    The more informed I am the better able I'll be to fight my (our) corner with the medical 'bods'.

    I'd be interested to know if you aware of any relation between APTT Ratios and PA / B12 deficiency? I had excessive bruising issues in 2012 and the APTT ratio was reported as abnormal (result just said 1). This was never investigated - at the time I was told the result was normal!

    Thanks for pointing me in the right directions. Much appreciated.

  • I think the link was to an abstract rather than the full article.

    Can't really comment on APTT ratios though I know I used to bruise if someone looked at me harshly - well not quite but I used to bruise really easily - and I would blled profusely because blood just wouldn't clot - very different now I am on the levels of B12 that I really need

  • Thanks Gambit.  Yes, I bleed also. And bruise.  Someone once asked me if my husband was beating me!!   Glad that you're getting the levels you need! That's my main mission at the moment!

  • "Been on PPIs for years," you write. That is the worst thing that you could do! A gastroenterologist told me that PA patients have no or low stomach acid,and you are making matters worse with PPIs. You need stomach acid to digest your food and to control bad bacteria. Look up achlorhydria . You need to treat that yourself.,as the NHS has no treatment.

  • Oh dear!! My GP prescribed PPI's and then doubled the dose when they were not working. A gastrologist later reduced the dose to standard dosage  and told me to stay on them! I've also been told to take Gaviscon four times a day and wonder if this is making a bad situation worse?

    What you've sent has been very useful...I've looked it up and I certainly seem to have a lot of the symptoms. I'm going to do some more research and see if I can discover ways to self treat. Very bad that there is no treatment on the NHS!!

    Thank you wedgewood.

  • Many people are wrongly prescribed PPIs and antacids. Older people often get reflux because their stomach acid is too low . When this happens , the sphincter, which is supposed to close when the acid level is high, doesn't do so, and so the reflux happens. This acid is still strong enough to cause burning.  The PPIs reduce the acid to near zero,and so there is no burning. But vitamins and nutrients are not absorbed properly without sufficient acid.

    I actually treated myself with Betaine Hydrochloric acid with pepsin capsules  for a short time. Now I use probiotics and sauerkraut to keep my tummy happy. Why is there no treatment ? There is too much money for the pharmaceutical industry in PPIs and antacids! They literally make billions. 

    I would not take Gaviscon personally. But in the meantime do as much research as possible on the Internet. Do the simple bi-carb test to find out if you are low in stomach acid. Sorry I must rush now I'm off abroad tomorrow. 1001 things to do! All the best!

  • Thanks again Wedgewood. More research, bi-carb test etc pending. Hope the words 'off abroad' are followed by the words 'on holiday'. Enjoy.

  • Hello Wedgewood.  Just to let you know jillc39 is looking for you - lost a response you sent her. Please could you post again so that she can find you. Thanks

  • This is wrong. Your B12 level should be high after injections. Mine is always reported as >2000 and my GP has accepted this as normal for me as I am on injections. As others have said there is no need for further blood testing after treatment has started though. When I just started treatment and was on loading doses one particularly arrogant GP told me he was only going to prescribe more B12 if I had a blood test showing low levels again. I told him that we both knew that my level was going to be high, and no reflection of the repair to damaged nerve cells, as I had alternate day injections so refused the blood test as it was pointless and that the guidelines were alternate day injections until no further improvement. In retrospect the long wait to see a neurologist was helpful as I was able to continue alternate day injections until then, by which time thankfully most symptoms had settled, and I had already started to reduce the injection frequency myself.

  • Thanks for this Secondchance. 

    So I'm not going mad then!! I just wish my GP would listen in the way yours seems to have done (the arrogant one aside). My GP remains adamant that I have B12 toxicity, despite my outlining the points you make above. I'm going to keep at it - next stage is a letter with all the guidelines and research information attached. If that doesn't work, I'll be looking for another GP pretty smartish.

    I agree - a wait for the neurologist is not such a bad thing - apart from the fact my GP will not treat me with B12 until I have blood tests which show low levels again (sound familiar!). Taking steps to try and remedy that so will let you know how it goes.

    All this would be a farce of magnificent order if it didn't have such a terrible impact on me and the many many others who suffer similar (I won't say treatment 'cause this would imply that such a thing is routinely on offer).

  • Hi, 

    It's mad!  If you can get enough B12 and supporting supplements into your body and get them to metabolise properly you can be well.  If you don't feel reasonably well there's a good chance you just aren't getting enough!  Blood tests are only a guide and can't say what is happening at cellular level!  

    For more information you could look up my profile and see my post "My Experiences". 

    Good luck! 

  • Mad indeed!! 

    Since I joined this site I've learnt so much, so quickly, and I now realise that I have to do what all of you seem to have done - become my own 'expert' and really push for decent treatment. And keep on reading. And learning.

    I've had a quick glance at your profile (just discovered there are such things here) and will be reading through it later today. Everything I read adds to my minute store of knowledge and its really helpful to read about other peoples experiences'.

    So... thank you Deniseinmilden

  • Wondering if Martyn had an opinion on 'B12 toxicity' - but looking at your post again it seems this was said after you'd spoken to him. I can't find anything about it on the internet, apart from in the case of a couple of underlying conditions, or the danger of potassium levels falling too low. As I understand it, very high B12 if you are NOT supplementing may be an indicator of a medical condition, but not when you are supplementing. I wonder where the nurse looked it up and whether the doctor double checked?

    I also wonder why there continue to be so many reports here of this kind of hostility towards and refusal to treat people with symptoms of B12 deficiency. 

    A lot of wondering!

  • The Dutch link FBirder gave above has more excellent information on this:

    "Misconceptions about a B12 Deficiency"

    "5. Serum B12 can be used to monitor treatment:"

    "One of the most common problems in the treatment of a vitamin B12 deficiency is that people receive insufficient injections to feel well. Often the serum B12 value is used to ascertain the frequency, or base treatment upon, but there is no correlation between the serum B12 value and the symptoms experienced by patients.

    During vitamin B12 injections, transcobalamin and haptocorrin (transportproteins) are fully saturated with vitamin B12. So, serum and Active B12 values cannot be used to ascertain the effect of treatment; levels rise regardless of therapeutic effectiveness."

    "Large groups of people need much more vitamin B12 than the recommended maintenance dose to feel well, and prevent recurring symptoms. Symptoms should be used as a guideline, not blood values.

    Also many physicians are, erroneously, afraid of an overdose."

    "6. B12 can be toxic in high doses"

    "In the past 60 years harmful effects have never been shown from overdose. No single case has been found in medical literature. After an injection the serum B12 value rises quickly to far above the upper reference value (on average 150-700 pmol/L), followed by a slow decrease. Apparently the underlying thought is that is it is necessary to keep the value between the (upper and lower) reference values. However the blood level of serum B12 rises regardless of therapeutic effectiveness, as I mentioned before.

    "A high serum B12 value does not mean that symptoms are treated sufficiently. This presumption can have damaging effects for patients with neurological symptoms, which can become irreversible with insufficient treatment."

    "The treatment with high dose B12 injections is not only completely safe but fortunately also very effective. With the right treatment patients can recover completely. Starting straight away with treatment is essential, as is the continuing treatment in order to give the body enough B12 to fully recover. Therefore it is essential that patients are no longer exposed to the real danger of irreversible symptoms because of the imaginary fear of overdosing."

  • Thanks for the extra information Polaris. I'm getting so much good stuff. Its brilliant.

    Thank again

  • A few years ago someone - suspect it was Martyn - commented at the PAS conference that the only way you could have too much B12 was if it was in a box above your head and it fell on you!

  • In that case, order me up a thunderstorm.

  • Thanks Frodo. Interesting points. And a lot of wondering too!

    I know the doctor didn't check it, simply quoted what the nurse said.

    You'll probably laugh (or scream) when I tell you this but... the nurse wants to check my B12 levels again in two weeks, a pretty useless exercise in light of everything I've been reading!! I'll ask her where she got her information. I think I'll even point out where I'm getting mine!

    Keep on wondering.

  • Hi Foggyme,

    It's possible that the nurse is getting her info from local NHS B12 management guidelines. Some of these local guidelines have not been updated for several years and some have not been updated since the "BCSH Cobalamin and Folate guidelines" came out in 2014.

    I found it helpful to get a copy of the local B12 guidelines in my helped me to understand why I had not got the treatment I felt I should have got. I was surprised that some guidelines appeared to differ from the BNF (British national Formulary) recommended treatment.

    Local NHS B12 guidelines may be found by an internet search, a search on local NHS website, a FOI (Freedom of Information) request to local NHS website even an MP might be able to find out.

    if you are in England, your local CCG (Clinical Commisioning group) might be able to tell you if the BCSH Cobalamin and Folate guidelines are being followed in your area.

  • Hi Sleepybunny...I started a reply and my laptop ate at the risk of repeating myself...Good idea.  Not on the internet so I've emailed the CCG with an FOI request.  I wait with bated breath.

    I suspect she got the information from the patient information leaflet in the box of hydroxocobalamin since when I originally asked for more, she read it out to me in the apparent expectation that I was having too much and would therefore get all the potential side effects. It gets better...the potential side effects are identical to the symptoms of B12 deficiency...which I had already!

    It'd be laughable if it wasn't so damaging (to put it mildly).

    I'll update you when I find out what her source was.

  • Oops.  Sorry Frodo...wrote a reply but I think I put it in the wrong place - it seems to have appeared somewhere below in a separate case you're wondering...

    I'll get the hang od this soon...

  • A banana a day will keep Potassium levels up which helps  B12 absorption. You are on the right site for help. These people are wonderful! Good luck!

  • Bananas it is then! Thanks for the tip. This site - I've only been here a few days and this morning my husband made the comment 'you've got your spirit back'. And he's right. And its entirely down to the support and help I've been getting here. And the knowledge!

    Thanks for your best wishes.

  • "been on PPI's for several years "

    Some links about PPIs and B12 deficiency.

    This link also mentions functional B12 deficiency.

  • Thanks Sleepybunny...I'm learning fast and its all really good stuff

  • Hi Foggyme. I really appreciate your posting and it looks like you have received some great advice. I can relate to your story and I am very new to this too.

    I really hope you get improved treatment from your GP and find a way to liberate the 'me' that's still inside. I believe if you contact Pernicious Anaemia Society, you can talk to there nursing Sister. There is a B12 conference on 18 June 2016, at Loughborough University, which may also be helpful in finding someone to treat you privately. It is open to medical professionals and patients. If you google '' all the info is there. I'd love to know how you get on and the best of luck.

  • Oh thank you for your kind words.  I read my post afterwards and thought...hmm...I did go on a bit!!

    Its pretty awful to hear so many stories of people who struggle to get treatment.  But at the same time, really heartening to have all their experience 'on-tap' and not have to struggle alone anymore.

    Thank you for the info about the conference. I'll certainly go to it (its less then half an hour from where I live). Are you attending? Anyone else out there going?

    I'll post on progress and hope to have good news soon.

    Thanks again

  • Yes, I'll be going on the Friday. I wish you well :)

  • I was under the impression one could not overdose on B12.Reading all these posts I am so impressed at the knowledge you all have and also give profound thanks for my spouse who treated my problems for many years, so I have rarely encountered the hostility you. Have all encountered.What happened to the Hippocratic oath?

  • Indeed.  Can I borrow your spouse please!

  • I wish I knew what had happened to the Hippocratic oath....I was traumatised by my experiences . I didn't expect a cure just to be treated kindly..thankfully things are better now. Pleased to hear that you had support for many years and sure you, Foggyme and many others will get support from this forum.

  • Foggy me unfortunately he died three years ago since which time I have had to navigate on my own.He was Avery brilliant endocrinologist who always was able to diagnose long before anyone else. His reputation was unmatched So I had the very best of care plus the attitude from other physicians was always very respectful.

  • Retren...I'm so very sorry to hear of your loss.  And I apologise. I should have picked up on your use of the past tense, but I didn't. I can only begin to imagine how much you must miss him.

     I sincerely hope that you have been able to get proper treatment since (though it will obviously never be the same).

    In a few short days, I've found the people here to be a wonderful support and, as you're here too, hope it makes you feel less alone.

    Once again, I'm so sorry.

  • Foggy me don,t upset yourself although it was very kind of you to respond.I only wish there could be some solution for everyone's problems.

  • May25i have wondered where you are Foggyme.did you say at some posting you wished for the books on pernicious anaemiaB?i have finished with mine if you would like I could send them to old nurse to another.

  • Hello Rentren. I'm here! That is such a kind offer. I've just purchased Martyn's book,'What you need to know about Pernicious Anaemia and Vitamin B12 Deficiency (a really good read) and am waiting for 'Could it be Vitamin B12 Deficiency' to be delivered.

    I never knew how much there is to know until I became deficient!

    If you have anything else then, yes, I'd love to take you up on your offer (Icould private message you with my details).

    It's really nice to 'meet' another old nurse!! I should imagine that some of the terrible tales of uncaring negligence that we read here make you very angry. As they do me.

    Hope that you are keeping well and thank you again.

    Take care.

  • May25 again that was quick the reply. I only have could it beB12 and What you need to know---- I have not got a clue how to figure out the hidden stuff.Isn,t it amazing how all we nurses keep popping up?I already posted my thoughts on the appalling state of everything.I was unfortunately hospitalized here in the US last summer if I had not already had one coronary I would have had another.the nursing care was positively eye opening.They are wonderful at the stuff requiring I've,s and so forth but have not got a clue about bed side nursing. They would not have lasted five minutes with my nursing tutors.

  • Hi Retren. Yes...we old nurse get everywhere (given a chance).

    Know what you mean about nursing tutors. One of ours, in particular, was a 'stickler' but I have never known anyone so kind to patients and my goodness, did she make sure we were up to scratch. I don't think they even teach bedside nursing care anymore! That was the bit I loved more than anything. And talking to patients...what a joy that was...and seeing someone's face light up because of the simple act of putting on a bit of lippy for them. 😄😄

    I wish we could show today's nurses what they're missing!

    Hope that you've fully recovered from you spell in hospital. I'll watch out for your posts.

    Take care

    P.s. Looks like I have the books that you have but thank you for the lovely offer xx

  • May28lovely to find we have more in common than we thought at first.Thank you about my recovery asking.Not sure if everything is back in order but one trundles on.I only thank goodness When I know my closest friend from pre training school onwards is dealing with Alzheimer,s I could sit down and cry .in fact have.So many things out there.

  • May29Foggyme Did you go to the conference at Loughbrough?I always thought it was an agricultural college. Used to know someone there.

  • Hello again Retren. So sorry about your friend. It's really sad. I have a friend from 'back-then' and I'm closer to her than to some of my family. I'd be devastated if anything happened to her.

    Haven't been to the conference yet. It's on June 18th - just deliberating about buying a ticket - bit of a gamble 'cause not sure yet whether I could manage to do all day on feet!

    You're right about the agricultural college - Sutton Bonnington, just outside Loughborough. We also have Loughborough University (where I studied for a late degree in English) where the conference is being held.

    All these seats of learning but we're really quite ordinary and small!

    Take care Retren, hope you keep well x

  • Foggyme Thank you for your good wishes and likewise.I originate from Doncaster so I should know the area.

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