Hi All

[Chocolate41]

Hi everyone

I have just read a comment some where on the Internet about Vitamin B 12.It said it was written by a doctor! He said it was harmful to have a very high reading as it could cause cancer of the liver.

Has anyone else hard about this.

I would appreciate any comments you have please.

[Hidden]

Hi Chocolate41 ,

Its more that if you have a very high level of B12 naturally then there could be a reason for that such as liver problems, so that would need to be investigated. But if your high level is produced by artificial means such as injection then that is of no concern,

I hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Marre

[Gambit62 Administrator]

There was a study done in Scandanavia that showed a high CORRELATION between B12 supplementation and development of cancer. There are also studies that show that tumours tend to be larger if B12 supplementation is happening. However, that was a CORRELATION and didn't identify a causal link.

B12 deficiency is one condition that increases your risk of cancer because of the part B12 plays in healthy cell reproduction, so it's quite possible that the causal link is the fact that people receiving supplementation would have been deficient but the cancer wasn't advanced enough to be caught and identified at that point. The point about tumours probably stems from the same cause but also reflect the fact that B12 promotes cell reproduction which would include any cancerous cells as well.

Think the doctor concerned probably doesn't understand the difference between a correlation and a causal link. My usual explanation is that if you analysed suicide rates against languages I'd expect that you would find a high correlation with languages such as Swedish, Norwegian, Lapp ... but that doesn't mean that speaking those languages makes you more likely to kill yourself. The causal relation is to do with where the people who speak those languages are concentrated - around the arctic circle and the variation in day length that that brings - which has been established to be a factor.

[engels]

Post by bluedragon a few minutes ago with a relevant link:

healthunlocked.com/pasoc/po...

[Leilanilea in reply to engels]

The site noted by bluedragon has excellent information...it is in English though of Dutch origin.

Thanks for posting,

Leilani

[Hidden in reply to Leilanilea]

Its the dutch version of PAS, the person who has set it up was initially involved with the first PAS forum, she helped me a lot ( I am dutch, but live and married etc in UK). Stichting B12 tekort also has a forum, but you have to be a member to see all. One can read it with google translate. PAS refers to them as their sister organisation.

[Leilanilea in reply to Hidden]

Thanks, Marre

[Bluedragon]

As above, funnily enough a page I came across earlier explained previous fears of liver diseases linked to high B12.

[Chocolate41]

Thanks for all your replies and Engels for the link.Very interesting.Will print it off and show my GP when I next attend.

I don't think he is really knows about Vit B12 treatment.

Thanks again

[Poppet11]

Two points to note:

Some articles 'written' by Drs. Aren't. They are ghostwritten. And some of the ghostwriters go round the internet scraping information. There may have been only one research paper done about high B12 and cancer, it might not even have been published. Only way to check is to go back to the article you found, find the reference to the study and read the whole study. That basically applies to any information which concerns you. Just to give you an example: I found a couple of brilliant 'references' only this week concerning studies on another treatment. They are referenced all over the internet. I went to double check the information. They don't exist. No such studies. And that was just 2 references from 1 article. Yet that information is duplicated all over the internet in many, many, articles.

Others you find that the 'conclusion' is really only the interpretation of the author of the article. Someone else might have a really hard time seeing it.

A great example there is how Livestrong were continually putting it out that B12 treatment 'causes' the 'side effect' of pink urine. Well, anyone worth their salt knows that if your urine turns pink it is because your body is excreting the excess and it means you are nicely full up. Whether it's a 'side effect' or not is a matter of interpretation.

Secondly, because B12 does act on cells, the presumption is that it will increase cancer cells also. This is not necessarily true. I've got a book here somewhere which explains why (not the whole book) B12 only regenerates healthy cells. There was however some work done on another of the B vitamins which showed it does increase the rate of cancer cells.

[Hidden]

Huge doses of hydroxocobalamin (5g) are given to patients with cyanide poisoning, no serious adverse health effects;

See:

Hydroxocobalamin in cyanide poisoning.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/231...

"ADVERSE EFFECTS:

Both animal and human data suggest that hydroxocobalamin is lacking in clinically significant adverse effects. However, in one human volunteer study, delayed but prolonged rashes were observed in one-sixth of subjects, appearing 7 to 25 days after administration of 5 g or more of hydroxocobalamin. Rare adverse effects have included dyspnoea, facial oedema, and urticaria."

And:

supplements.annemergmed.com...

lib.ajaums.ac.ir/booklist/2...

portal.mah.harvard.edu/temp...

"Hydroxocobalamin is available as a lyophilized powder

that forms a clear red liquid when reconstituted. It should

be administered through a dedicated intravenous line, since

it is known to be incompatible with several drugs commonly

used in resuscitation and with the other cyanide antidotes.

19 When administered for vitamin deficiencies, hydroxocobalamin

is typically dosed in micrograms or milligrams.

When used as a cyanide antidote, much larger

doses (grams) are required. The recommended starting

dose is 5 g administered intravenously over 15 minutes,

but it can be given more slowly if infusion rate–related

problems develop. Additional doses of 2.5 g may be given

as needed to reverse the symptoms of cyanide toxicity. For

children, an initial dose of 70 mg/kg can be followed by a

50% repeat dose (35 mg/kg) if needed."

"A more recent study evaluated the safety of high-dose hydroxocobalamin in adults.26 In this randomized, doubleblind, placebo-controlled trial, dose safety and tolerability were evaluated. Hydroxocobalamin was given intravenously in 4 ascending doses of 2.5, 5, 7.5, and 10 g over 7.5–30

minutes. A total of 136 participants were enrolled, of whom 102 were randomized to receive hydroxocobalamin and 34 to receive placebo. The study was stopped prematurely after the rate of adverse reactions in the 10-g arm was deemed “not acceptable for volunteers.” The most common adverse reactions were chromaturia (seen in all pts.) and reddening of the skin (seen in almost all pts.). Other reactions included a papular/pustular rash, headache, erythema at injection site, decreased lymphocyte percentage, nausea, pruritus, chest discomfort, and dysphagia. Two allergic reactions occurred during administration of doses between 4 and 5 g. An increase in blood pressure, usually starting toward the end of the infusion and returning to normal within 4 hours, was noted. The

mean systolic and diastolic blood pressure increases averaged 23 and 18 mm Hg, respectively. Heart rates also were noted to decrease from baseline. This study established that intravenous intravenous

doses of 2.5 and 5 g are generally well tolerated by nonpoisoned humans. Although a reasonable number of subjects were enrolled, the vast majority of participants were of Scandinavian origin, which may limit the ability to generalize results to other ethnic groups."

There are loads more research papers, just put hydroxocobalamin and cyanide into any search. 5 grams is a hell of a lot more than what you get in a B12 injection..

Kind regards,

Marre.

[Leilanilea in reply to Hidden]

Thanks for information. I'd like to add a couple points; when evaluating any effects, be sure you are not mistaking intravenous (IV) for intramuscular (IM) or subcutaneous (SQ or sub-q). Except in emergency situations such as poisoning, B12 is usually given IM or SQ.

About studies...a very important part of information that may not be noted in abstracts and summaries, is what concomitant, or accompanying, diseases or conditions the study participants already have.

Also, "chromaturia" means urine is abnormally colored.

Best,

Leilani

[helonlegs]

Just a comment on the contrariness of doctors. A doctor would not give me extra B12 injections as it is harmful but has prescribed 5 mg of folic acid daily for life; folic acid has a proven link to increase chance of cancer and is usually only given for 4 months. I am prescribed it due to my haemolytic anaemia - I need extra folic as I need to keep making more blood cells but apparently not more B12!

[engels in reply to helonlegs]

Is that contrariness or ignorance?

[swimminthrutreacle]

Same experience here in France. GP wanted to stop the B12 injections I have been having (for at least 35 years) but left the Folic acid tablets on my the prescription for 2 years or more. He doesn't know about B12 deficiency and/or PA.

I am doing my own injections now, and tend to know when my folate is low because the B9 anaemia symptoms return. But am finding it difficult to supplement without the cursed folic acid tablets, with plenty of greens and methylfolate maybe? He won't test my bloods for another 6 months, so I am going to spend the time translating the study that proves doctors should treat according to symptoms rather than blood tests.