Not being a microbiologist, I wondering how distinct the strain PXN21 is for bacillus subtilis. Apparently bacillus subtilis has many different strains. How different are they?
How significant is the strain in bacillus... - Cure Parkinson's
How significant is the strain in bacillus subtilis PXN21?
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pvw2
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for sure it is a type patented by protexin and makes me think. We should ask them.
I've asked which one of their products has the most Subtilis and this is the answer.
"Many thanks for your email and taking the time to contact Bio-Kult.
Out of our product range, the new Bio-Kult Mind contains the highest concentration of Bacillus subtilis PXN® 21® at a dose of 1 billion CFU/capsule (1 x 109), so this is the product I would recommend for you."
1-2 x day. Ordered today, let's see!
Very well done Luke, very usefull !
I bought the "mind" on ebay after I also bought the "advance" before, because I saw it later.
where did you buy it if i can ask.
We keep in mind that this is a research on worms that have an anatomy and a metabolism of alfasynucleina very different from man, so it is only a stroke of luck if it works.
But you are LuckyLuke .. true?
ty 
Gio
cell.com/cell-reports/pdfEx...
Yes, we are all lucky here Bought directly from Bio-Kult, the Advanced here is less expensive fruugo.co.uk/bio-kult-60-ca... but they still don't sell the 'mind' version. I do cycles of probiotics every year so, it's worth trying with a better performing bacteria at this point!
Hopefully it's a mater of the mind version not distributed out to the retailers yet.
Sounds a little strange because I bought it on eBay let's see if it arrives and what!
rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?...
took mine on the official web site bio-kult by the way, from UK to Italy.
UK-UK has free shipping, lucky parkye from UK!!
Here's a reminder of what you've purchased and where we'll send it to:
Product Name: Quantity: Price:
Bio-Kult Mind (BK-055) 1 GBP 19.94
Delivery (Tracked Delivery) 1 GBP 7.95
Conclusion: the claim is all bacillus survive the high acidity of the stomach.
Quote: Bacillus subtillis PXN® 21® has been proven to survive the high acidity of the stomach and to complement the existing gut flora naturally present in a healthy person's digestive system.
From: protexin.com/products/bio-k...
Strain HU58 has same claim:
amazon.com/Perfect-Probioti...
Apparently this is a general claim for all bacillus:
Quote: Bacillus species are of particular interest as potential probiotics. Probiotics are ingestible bacteria which improve intestinal balance, modulate immune function, produce compounds with systemic effects, and convey some benefit to the host.[4] Due to the pathogenic nature of many bacteria the human gut comes in contact with, the stomach contains hydrochloric acid (HCl) to protect the body from pathogens by killing off “bad” bacteria.[5] B. subtilis spores survive transit through stomach HCl, making them particularly intriguing as a component of probiotic formulas.[6] Once in the small intestine, B. subtilis spores sense a favorable environment for proliferation and undergo differentiation into active bacterial cells.[7] It is here that these bacterial communities begin to flourish and convey benefits to the host.
From: sanescohealth.com/blog/baci...
I just read that B subtilis has been shown to survive exposure to space! Here's a quote:
"The spores survive extended periods of time in space--up to several years--, if protected against the high influx of solar UV-radiation."
Paper is here: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/843...
Conversely, I just read a very negative review on Amazon for a B subtilis probiotic. The reviewer complained that when they opened a capsule and put it in water the probiotic didn't reproduce (foam etc.)
But from what you wrote, it should only only begin reproducing once it gets to the second intestine and senses a favorable environment. Interesting.
Quote: A species can be biologically defined, as being able to reproduce sexually with members of the same species and further, their offspring or progeny can also reproduce sexually and produce offspring.
Some species, mostly in the kingdom Prokaryote, such as bacteria, reproduce asexually through cell division.
Strains, races, breeds, cultivars, are subdivisions of a species based on characteristics.
Apparently bacillus subtilis is itself a bacteria strain. So, PXN21 must actually be a sub-strain, and bacteria strain is not well defined. The sub-strains must be to have a patent so research can be done on the patented bacteria leaving the initial strain unknown. I can only guess this and would like feedback from those who actually know.
Also interesting is what it does as described here. It would be a good stroke of luck.
Hi just wanted wondered if anyone knows of a good supplement containing this particular strain.
PXN = Protexin and 21 identifies the strain they developed from bacillus subtilis and patented. So, Protexin sells probiotics with the strain. For another company to sell the strain, first Protexin would want to sell licenses to other companies, and then that company would be willing to buy a license. The unanswered question: "Will bacillus subtilis do the same thing?" For someone to do the research without their own patented strain would mean they were willing to do so without recovering their research cost.
Is it ok to take if it also has PXN 23, and PXN 25 in it ?
As long as it has PXN21, the only disadvantage with more probiotics is less room for PXN21. Note PXN21 is still undergoing trials. No guarantee that it will work. Note also PXN23 and PXN25 are different bacillus, not subtilis.
Thank you for info. I can only find 1 product containing the PX21 strain and that is Bio Kult. Any other product I’ve come across seems to be for animals.
The Bio Kult Mind seems to be the one as it contains just the one live strain. As normal one is advised to check with a health care professional before commencing with these supplements. I’ve always found this difficult to do as my neuros (I’ve had a few) will never commit themselves when it comes to over the counter medicines.
Munnings,
An important principle. Most MDs including neurologists seem to have accepted big pharma's "standards of care" myth. Very few such physicians are willing to act heretically by recommending that a patient might try a supplement or several.
This seems especially true in at least some nursing homes with their Gestapo-like drug-dispensing policies.
The medical/medicationist mindset that detroyed Ignaz Semmelweiss thrives.
This is from the aforementioned study
cell.com/cell-reports/pdfEx...
"We therefore asked whether the observed effect on a-syn aggregation is unique to PXN21 or if it is shared among other strains of the B. subtilis species. We tested a panel of laboratory B. subtilis strains, including 168 (Zeigler et al., 2008), JH642 (Smith et al., 2014), and the undomesticated strain NCIB 3610 (Branda et al., 2001). All strains showed similar effects on a-syn aggregation to the probiotic strain PXN21 following the continuous or food-switching regime (Figures 2F and 2G), indicating that the anti-aggregation effect is a general property of the B. subtilis species. Furthermore, all tested B. subtilis strains extended the lifespan of a-syn-expressing transgenic animals (Figure 2H; Table S1)."
Here's a link to a less expensive supply of Bacillus Subtilis DE111, which may give you the same result: amazon.com/Probiotic-Probio...
Other articles mention that Bacillus Subtilis has almost an antibiotic ability to get rid of other bacteria including C. Diff. This makes one suspicious a unwanted bacteria causes the a-syn aggregation.
Thanks for answering the question by digging that paragraph out of the long article I went through too fast.
Here's all Bacillus Subtilis not so expensive:
amazon.com/SUPERSMART-Lacto...
Looks like they were overwhelmed with orders and sold out, but you can use the above links to put it on your list for later.
I want to also point out (as I have elsewhere) that it's possible to make your own Bacillus Subtilis rich food by fermenting soybeans. It's a Japanese dish called "natto". To make it. you need a starter or "seed" (one pill from any B Subtilis probiotic or a small amount of natto). There are a few ways to make it, so you might go to youtube to see which way seems best to you.
The benefit is that it's very inexpensive. You can use your own natto as seed for all future natto you make. Also, to help B Subtilis thrive in your 2nd intestine, you should provide it with the right food, and natto would do that. Taking a probiotic is similar to planting a garden, while prebiotics provide nutrients and water to help your garden grow. By eating natto, you're giving the B Subtilis inside you what it needs to thrive.
The downside is that you don't know the specific amount of B Subtilis you're eating. Also, unless you use a probiotic pill as a seed, you won't know the particular B Subtilis species (sub-strain?) you're growing. Also, natto is an acquired taste, or so I'm told.
JerMan22, I've also read that natto has an extremely bad smell. The Japanese don't seem to mind it though, as they eat a lot of natto. But the odor may be difficult to deal with by people who didn't grow up with it. (I'm not trying to discourage people from making it; I'm just trying to forewarn.)
this research is very well done even if is done on lab worms. Researchers not only try to prove the good results, but also try to demonstrate the opposite without success. An example of how research should be done. If the results were confirmed on humans it would be a very positive fact.
I quote (in discussion):
"PD is typified by the presence of intraneuronal a-syn aggregation and dopaminergic degeneration (Poewe et al., 2017). Our current study is based on an established Caenorhabditis elegans model that expresses human a-syn in muscle cells, which allows us to assess aggregation in vivo. The effects of Bacillus subtilis on the nervous system, as well as its efficacy in mouse models of PD, present promising avenues of future investigation. The prospect of B. subtilis modifying a-syn aggregation in humans could open exciting possibilities for diet-based, disease-modifying interventions through the manipulation of microbiome composition in the gastrointestinal tract or the development of drug therapies based on protective bacterial metabolites.“
cell.com/cell-reports/pdfEx...
My understanding of this is that they have had success with Bacillus Subtilis in the context of muscle cells in a worm. Now they want to try it in the context of nervous-system cells, and also try it in the context of a mouse model of PD. If successful, next up would be a Phase 1/2 trial in humans. All this will take a few years.
Meanwhile, Bacillus Subtilis is readily available as a dietary supplement for humans. I don't change my list of supplements very often, but I am very tempted to add this to my list now, rather than wait a few years for the outcome of the first human trials.
Hi jeffreyn,
IMHO the thing is very interesting for the disintegration mechanisms of the asyn more than where it is produced in the worms. A research that is not easy to read and evaluate by a non-professional like me,but not impossible to study and understand, including the metabolism of lab worms for experiments on PD. IMO you may be pleasantly surprised by this research once you fully understood.
From the research paper:
"... direct interactions between a-syn and lipids are known to modulate the aggregation propensity of this protein both in vitro and in vivo. We propose that the B. subtilis probiotic diet in the C. elegans model alters the lipid composition of the cell, directly affecting a-syn aggregation."
I may be mis-understanding something, but this passage strongly reminds me of the recently-reported results of the ambroxol trial, and the connection between glucocerebrosidase, glucosylceramides/glucocerebrosides, and a-syn aggregates.
hi Jeffryn,
I haven't looked at Ambroxol yet,
About B. Subutilis: it was a couple of days that I wondered where this idea of searcheers for B. Subutilis had rained down. That is, I was wondering who the genius was who had this idea and here it is "Roberto Grau of Rosario National University, Argentina, who reported that feeding probiotic bacteria to worms prevented α-synuclein accumulation and neurodegeneration." In a 2017 research. article says practically the same things confirmed by English research. Grau is said to have drawn inspiration from natto and that he would have tried to use it on PD patients in 2018. I am not surprised that the discovery comes from Argentina, which is one of the major producers of soybean ,base ingredient of natto, as well as a great nation that uses glisophate by airplane.☹️ What do you think about it?😀
alzforum.org/news/conferenc...
misionesonline.net/2018/12/...
Not sure I would want to use it all the time, but looking for decongestants with Ambroxol.
Gio asked: "What do you think about it?"
Well, it is my understanding that natto is very popular in Japan, so you would expect PD to be less common there. But I don't think that is the case ...
That seems like a key point. Just did a bit of searching, and didn't find any really great reference, but my initial impression is the same... Japan doesn't appear to stand out for a low incidence of PD. Worth further searching though!
You could perhaps even just eat natto, which has its own species of B. subtils.
...Oh, I see it's talked about in a link provided by GioCas above.
From the discussions this has generated, it seems likely that many of us will be trying B subtilis on ourselves. My order for the probiotic containing it should arrive today. Based on past experience with this forum, we should perhaps have one main topic that focuses on results (both good and - hopefully not - bad). And another topic that can contain answers for those who want to try it themselves. Anyone care to organize that?
B subtilis sounds like a good probiotic even if it doesn't work on PD.
Yes, I'm really amazed at how many conditions Bacillus subtilis appears to help. Everything from toenail fungus to constipation and diarrhea. Also colitis, obesity, and even the flu. Not to mention improved liver function, skin and dental health. In general, it seems to be a big part of our immune system, controlling pathogenic (harmful) bacteria and fungi.
The original question that started this topic asked how significant the PXN21 designation was. I've looked for the answer in the aforementioned study and found this:
"We therefore asked whether the observed effect on a-syn aggregation is unique to PXN21 or if it is shared among other strains of the B. subtilis species. We tested a panel of laboratory B. subtilis strains, including 168 (Zeigler et al., 2008), JH642 (Smith et al., 2014), and the undomesticated strain NCIB 3610 (Branda et al., 2001). All strains showed similar effects on a-syn aggregation to the probiotic strain PXN21 following the continuous or food-switching regime (Figures 2F and 2G), indicating that the anti-aggregation effect is a general property of the B. subtilis species. Furthermore, all tested B. subtilis strains extended the lifespan of a-syn-expressing transgenic animals (Figure 2H; Table S1)."
For those of us who are unable to order the BioKult Mind product (or just want to save money) you can order Bacillus Subtilis from Amazon and elsewhere, which (according to the above quote) may give you "similar" results.
I received my order (about $US 14/month) and took my first dose yesterday. Fingers crossed.
So how is your Bacillus Subtilis trial going, if I may ask?
An interesting paper: jcm.asm.org/content/36/1/325
pvw2 in reply to
Can someone interpret what this paper is telling us? We seem to be getting a lot of contradictory information on what is helpful and harmful.
Well, I'm not an expert, but I think these 2 partial sentences say it clearly enough:
"The subject of our report is a 73-year-old male with chronic lymphocytic leukemia..."
"We conclude that...high numbers of viable microorganisms (especially if polyantibiotic resistant) should not be given to any patient with severe immunodeficiency."
Which is why everyone should be reminded to consult with their doctor before taking anything new.
Another point to make is that it may be unwise to take a probiotic which contains antibacterial resistant strains of viable microorganisms. The subject of this report had taken "B. subtilis spores... available in Italy as a pharmaceutical preparation for oral use. Each dose contains a mixture of 109 spores of four distinct antibiotic-resistant derivatives of ATCC 9799 (Enterogermina; distributed by Sanofi Winthrop, Milan, Italy)"
I don't think I've ever seen an antibacterial resistant probiotic on sale.
So, is it safe to say the Bacillus Subtilis strains available on the non-prescription market do not have the antibiotic resistant characteristic?
After a little more searching, I found this paper which seems to be saying that resistant strains in probiotics could be a growing problem, so I'm not ready to say one way or another:
sciencedaily.com/releases/2...
Speaking just for myself, I'm taking what's probably a small risk, but everyone should decide for themselves.
One consideration is one shouldn't keep taking probiotics unless one has just gotten off antibiotics. Thus, one usually needs only to add the culture once.
After even more searching and reading, I've discovered a few things closely related to the risks involved. There is a lot of positive information, which is all very interesting and inter-related.
Almost all of the negative warning I've found comes from one person with a youtube video here: youtube.com/watch?v=AqqfEY3...
As he says, B subtilis (really, all of the Bacillus) can form spores that protect them, which makes them all anti-bacterial, though not normally resistant to all antibiotics. He refers to a case in which the subject's biome became over-run by B subtilis and he had to take extreme measures, but survived. In this case, the subject had previously been taking strong antibiotics which had wiped out his gut biome, and he'd been taking a probiotic with B subtilis to try to rebuild it. So, again, someone with a compromised imune system and gut.
In the video, he makes a claim that B subtilis isn't commonly found in human gut biomes, and when they are found, they're probably just passing through and not forming long-term colonies. This is his main concern about B subtilis. I found a paper which appears to corroborate this and provides more clues, though he seems to be wrong about it being uncommon. Here are a few quotes, followed by a link to the paper:
"The scientists recruited 200 volunteers in rural Thailand for the study. This population, they speculated, would not be as affected by food sterilization or antibiotics as people in highly developed urban areas. The scientists first analyzed fecal samples from each of the study participants for bacteria correlated with the absence of S. aureus. They found 101 samples positive for Bacillus, primarily B. subtilis..."
So, they DID find B subtilis in about half of the samples, but were they from a colony or just "passing through"?
"Bacillus bacteria form spores that can survive harsh environments and commonly are ingested naturally with vegetables, allowing them to temporarily grow in the intestine. The scientists then sampled the same 200 people for S. aureus in the gut (25 positive) and nose (26 positive). Strikingly, they found no S. aureus in any of the samples where Bacillus were present."
Source: sciencedaily.com/releases/2...
In other words, they believe that B subtilis is ingested via poorly washed vegetables, survives the stomach acid and "temporarily grow in the intestine". So, it's likely that we evolved ingesting B subtilis on our vegies.
Based on this and my general good health (other than PD, I seem healthy enough) I've decided to periodically take the probiotic, maybe two pills every few days in order to better simulate eating poorly washed vegies. But in the end this is a purely "gut" feeling (pun intended) and everyone should decide based on their own situation and input from their doctor.
This makes one question the wisdom of taking probiotics while taking antibiotics. If one were trying to make an antibiotic resistant strain, that's how you would do it. The antibiotics are in ones' system the entire time taking them. Taking probiotics during the lower concentration times just increased the chance of developing an antibiotic resistant strain.
Should've been clearer. Previous to all of this, he'd taken a course of strong antibiotics. After that, he took probiotics to try to restore his gut biome. Not at the same time.
Couldn't find it anywhere, AmazonUK or Amazon USA. I finally found company's site. Presently UNAVAILABLE! Sent them contact info to let me know when it's going to be available.
Found other probiotics same as Bio Cult but without the specific strain.
I use this one. Has the strain. amazon.com/dp/B004SGO4DG?re...
Yes, I use it, too, but I am talkin g about "Bio Cult Mind" which has PXN21 strain only.
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