Is Suicide Ever an Option?: I don't... - Parkinson's Movement

Parkinson's Movement
16,786 members16,303 posts

Is Suicide Ever an Option?

pdpatient
pdpatient

I don't want to alarm anyone. I am not suicidal and I am not contemplating it right now. However, I have been having an inner dialogue with myself, kind of like a thought exchange about the idea of the possibility of ending the pain of PD with an early exit from this world.

Should I / We ever consider it as a viable and/or an acceptable option? What are the arguments against or for it?

98 Replies
oldestnewest

pdpatient,

I can't comment on your case directly because I don't know what level of pain and disability that you have to endure and what help you get from family and friends. But, I can say that in my case, even though the underlying illness has got steadily worse over the years, I am as happy now, 14 years post-diagnosis, as I've ever been. Perhaps I've been lucky, in that my journey has been relatively benign. Perhaps I've been lucky in that the support I've had has been excellent.

I would recommend that any PwP who is having trouble should see their doctor to optimize their treatment. It is easy to get into a state where the drugs have less and less effect, but which with a simple change of regimen you can recover from.

John

I think it’s up to each individual to determine what quality of life they are willing to endure.

pdpatient,

This is a very difficult subject to discuss, even as an inner dialogue because it can force us to think about things we really don't want to. This subject also encompasses many things which further complicates the issue. It involves family, religion, friends, relatives, people who we may not even know or be aware of, your actual health status, your belief system and many other things which may not be so readily apparent at first or even second or third glance. It is not something we get to reconsider after the fact so the end result is final! I do not have an answer regarding suicide, just an opinion on what will clearly be a very controversial subject!

For me, I do not feel that I have the right to judge someone on their final decision because there is no way of knowing what an individual is going through or how much pain or mental and physical suffering that person is in. If that person is in relentless pain, suffering or misery that they are willing to end their life and I have never been where they are, how could I possibly even comment on their situation?

There is the religious aspect which can easily be the most complicated aspect of suicide.

It is often said that God will not give you more than you can handle, but suicide is clearly real and happens everyday somewhere in the world, so is that often quoted sentiment really true? Some people feel that God can never forgive you if you commit suicide, but what if suicide is the answer that God is showing you? If heaven is as wonderful as it is often said or portrayed to be, maybe this is the way that God wants to put an end to our suffering and guide us to our new location in heaven. When it comes to religion, I don't think anyone really knows the answer and it is pretty much taken in faith. There are many religions or beliefs, so how can one say that theirs is the only correct belief? If you believe in God as the creator of everything, how then can you maintain that your belief system is correct while saying another's belief system is wrong, if God created everyone and everything? God is often said to be a forgiving God and if you believe that then why do you not believe that God can forgive a person for anything if he wants to?Who is to say that God has not changed his mind or himself? If he created us as constantly learning and evolving creatures in his likeness, why can't he be the same? God has clearly shown that he can change his mind and the course of the world. A cursory inspection of the Old Testament and the New Testament, to me proves that God can definitely change his previous thinking as that was one very huge change! To me that comparison confirms that God and his thinking are evolving too because it suggests that God saw that the old way was not working as he had intended it to and so God evolved toward the New Testament and if he did it once why can't he do it again? The Old Testament God and the New Testament God seem like night and day in difference.

I do not mean to offend anyone with what I am saying here as I know that religion is a very personal issue and can be very different from one person to the next, I am just giving my opinion, right or wrong and obviously it is just speculation on my part, but it tends to show just how complex this subject is.

Even though it is our life and many feel it is our choice to make, but that choice will clearly impact many around us and often in a very negative way. Don't their feelings matter? Are we merely transferring our pain from ourselves to them? Even people we don't know or barely know may be affected by our decision. As a basic example, let's say that someone you have met at some point in your life, but barely know, looks up to you as a hero or person that they greatly admire for their strength and ability to endure extreme adversity and consequently you are a person who unknowingly gives them strength to overcome adversity in their own life, your suicide may impact them tremendously and probably not in a good way! What if your suicide is so disillusioning to them that they decide to do the same?

Although it is true that it is your own life, it can be much more than that to those around us!

So, as I said in the first paragraph, I do not have an answer, just an opinion on a very complex subject that can easily impact many others!

Art

pdpatient
pdpatient
in reply to chartist

Thanks for the well thought out reasoning, Sir!

Enidah
Enidah
in reply to chartist

Hear hear, Art! Thank for that well thought out response. I would imagine there are few of us who haven’t mulled this over. I have 3 children and other people who love me. I will do and suffer whatever I have to to not make their lives any harder than need be. But I am going to see what my doc has for pain. Who knew PD could be so painful?!

chartist
chartist
in reply to Enidah

Thank you for saying so, Enidah. It is a very hard thing to discuss, even with ourselves.

Your point is well taken about how your children motivate you to keep going on a tough and sometimes painful road!

Btw, what is the cause of your pain and what areas is it affecting?

Art

Enidah
Enidah
in reply to chartist

Good morning Art,

When I am going off my meds I start getting pain in my shoulders and upper arms and if I don't get my dopamine replenished it spreads from shoulder to shoulder and feels like my bones in my clavicle area are aching. Pain has always been my number one problem. Started with dystonia in my right foot and back which I still get if I am very depleted of dopamine. It's a problem at night because it wakes me as my meds wear off. Still, I am very grateful I have something I can take to alleviate it.

chartist
chartist
in reply to Enidah

So many members mention similar and it seems there should be a way to lessen or avoid this problem. Does any of the controlled release C/L products offer any relief if one is taken right at bedtime? Have you tried mag oil to see if it offers any relief? Have you tried any of the oral higher absorption forms of magnesium such as the magnesium blend that Kia is using ? What about the over the counter Salonpas patches? Is topical ibuprofen cream of any help? I'm just asking to see if others can chime in to see if they can offer any ideas on dealing with this form of pain which seems fairly common. I wonder if any C/L products are offered as a "patch" or cream? Life without pain is so much easier!

Art

Enidah
Enidah
in reply to chartist

I like all the ideas for pain relief. One of my friends has been taking zonisamide for pain and it is helping. Originally an anti-seizure med. I am going to ask my doc about it.

I have taken generic extended C/L without much improvement. Sometime I would like to try Rytary.

SilentEchoes
SilentEchoes
in reply to Enidah

Rytary worked for my mom.

I use a TENS machine purchased at drug store for 30 USD. You attach patches to painful area (my back) and can regulate the speed and intensity of the pulses. A 30-min session totally dissolves my pain for a full day.

CapSage
CapSage
in reply to Enidah

I've used Arnica gel from the local pharmacy without prescription for pain. And a friend has used Deep Massage with good results. I have a gift certificate for the Deep Massage that I will soon try.

chartist
chartist
in reply to CapSage

I use a homeopathic version of Arnica called "NatraBio The Arnica Rub" and it is equivalent in pain relief to the home made ibuprofen topical cream that I make and I feel it is safer than the regular arnica topical formulations because some people are allergic to arnica montana. The homeopathic version may be safer due to the super dilutions used in homeopathy. It also has fairly good reviews on Amazon. Here is a link to the product I use and have given and recommended to my family members and friends. This product contains two 4 ounce tubes.

amazon.com/Natra-Bio-Arnica...

Read some of the 242 reviews to get an idea of what users think of it. A bit of a warning, it has an unusual/possibly unpleasant smell, but that smell is gone in less than 5 minutes. I didn't recommend this in my original reply because mag oil (MO) is less expensive and does more, so I recommend MO first to see if it will be adequate. If it is not effective enough, then I recommend NutraBio The Arnica Rub next.

I should mention some differences between these two products. I consider The Arnica Rub to be a slightly more effective pain reliever and it also helps to speed recovery from bruises.

On the other hand, MO can relieve pain at a slightly lesser effectiveness, but it also helps to relax muscles, especially in the neck and shoulder area which can sometimes relieve tension headaches and stiff necks. MO is also good at helping to quickly relieve muscle cramps in the arms, hands, feet and legs and because MO is absorbed very well through the skin it can contribute to your total magnesium intake. Mo is also useful for sprains, strains, relieving arthritic pain, relieving pain associated with a torn rotator cuff or frozen shoulder. Here is a link to a fairly inexpensive 8 ounce spray bottle that should be more than enough to test it out and should last a fairly long time.

amazon.com/Magnesium-Oil-Sp...

Again, read some of the 1,849 user reviews to get an idea of what users think of MO.

Art

CapSage
CapSage
in reply to chartist

Wow...so much to know, so much to review! Thanks Art!

Grumpy77
Grumpy77
in reply to chartist

(Quoting chartist: " To me that comparison confirms that God and his thinking are evolving too because it suggests that God saw that the old way was not working as he had intended it to and so God evolved toward the New Testament and if he did it once why can't he do it again? The Old Testament God and the New Testament God seem like night and day in difference.")

I will keep this very short because its off topic from the pdpatient's original post. Evangelicals and other Christians would find it difficult to accept this quote. To say God's thinking is evolving is to say he doesn't know the future OR his knowledge of the future is less than perfect. This is never accepted because (1) there were so many prophecies of the future both in the new and old testament. And many have been said to come to pass already (2) God will not be God and will be no different from us if his knowledge of the future is not perfect. (3) it contradicts many quotes from the bible

The old and new testament thing is about different dispensations (different eras: before Christ's resurrection and after his resurrection- requiring different principles)

chartist
chartist
in reply to Grumpy77

Yes, we could go on and on on this subject alone, but that is actually a different subject altogether and I will leave it at that. This just further illustrates the point that suicide is a very complex subject.

Art

Kwinholt
Kwinholt
in reply to chartist

Art, Very eloquently put. I agree as well and the pain for me is all to real as well but I endure for my family and friends who love me too. Thank you for your thoughtful response. ❤️ Karen

Good Morn Chartist,

After reading your post, I've been compelled by the holy spirit to give my simplistic take on God and Jesus.

People are constantly asking, “What’s so special about Jesus? Why is he the only way that someone can know God?”

Along with the problem of people who have never heard, there is no question asked more often than this one. We are accused of being narrow-minded because us christians assert there is no other way to get to God.

The first point to make is that Christians did not invent the claim of Jesus being the only way. This is not our claim, it is His. We are merely relating his claim, and the claim of the writers of the New Testament.

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6, NASB) and, “For unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24, NASB). The apostle Peter echoed these words, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12, KJV).

St. Paul concurred, “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus… . ”(I Timothy 2:5, KJV). It is therefore the united testimony of the New Testament that no one can know God the Father except through the person of Jesus Christ.

GODSPEED!

Have a great weekend everyone!

Mark

Allowing, for a moment, that your God is the only to true God and that you were commissioned by him to share the truth with us -- that those of us who don't worship in your faith will all burn in hell, as you said a few hours ago in another thread, which I had the HU administrators delete, the question was, "Should I / We ever consider suicide as a viable and/or an acceptable option?"

I don't see how such a display of religious bigotry is responsive to the question.

Just to be clear, your post is anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-Hindu, anti-Buddhist, anti-Baha'i, Etc. -- Xena phobic.

If mankind could have reached God any other way, then Jesus would not have had to die. His death illustrates the fact that there is NO other way. Therefore, no other RELIGION or religious leader can bring someone to the knowledge of the one true God.

The more you believe, the less you know.

My concern is that the video you posted didn't just say all the rest of us will burn in hell, it said we deserve to burn in hell which is religious persecution and precisely the language that inspires violence.

John Macarthur pulls no punches, as displayed in that video, when it comes to standing for the truth. One of the last real deal evangelical preachers we have left in this vile world, Rava Zachirous being another and, God rest his soul, R.C Sproul. The vidoes, books and preaching these three men of God have done over the last 50 years is unmatched, if your looking for the truth with no sugar coating look no further than these three men.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_...

Your name says it all. How come you not the Lord's messenger? Weapons are for hurting people. Your rhetoric is hurtful. Is that what you're about -- hurting people?

Dont be silly, not me, comon think, The Lords Weapon, here let me help you....

Hebrews 4:11

The word of God is alive and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It cuts all the way through, to where soul and spirit meet, to where joints and marrow come together. It judges the desires and thoughts of our heart.

Ephesians 6:17

And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God forever.

---------------------

Put it together yet MB, The Word of God, the bible is the Lords Weapon

OK class dismissed

I have one last question, before you dismiss the class. Seems very convenient for you that you are born into the only true religion. Would you be espousing the same thing if you were born a Jew?

MB, there are many Jews that have converted to Christianity, and many more who believe Jesus was a blasphemer because he claimed to the son of the living God. For the ones who still do not accept the lords weapon into their heart they will have to face the consequences of their decision come judgment day.

Closing scripture for todays class, Jesus knew he would cause divinsion between people, even in your own family, because of believers and non believers fortold before the creation of the World.

Luke 12:49-56 Living Bible (TLB)

49 “I have come to bring fire to the earth, and, oh, that my task were completed! 50 There is a terrible baptism ahead of me, and how I am pent up until it is accomplished!

51 “Do you think I have come to give peace to the earth? No! Rather, strife and division! 52 From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against—or perhaps the other way around. 53 A father will decide one way about me; his son, the other; mother and daughter will disagree; and the decision of an honored mother-in-law[a] will be spurned by her daughter-in-law.”

54 Then he turned to the crowd and said, “When you see clouds beginning to form in the west, you say, ‘Here comes a shower.’ And you are right.

55 “When the south wind blows you say, ‘Today will be a scorcher.’ And it is. 56 Hypocrites! You interpret the sky well enough, but you refuse to notice the warnings all around you about the crisis ahead.

I would think that perpetually reciting these kinds of passages and being so angry all the time ("...No, strife and division...") would make your tremors worse.

Take a deep breath. Exhale slowly. Relax. Calm. :)

Good point MB,

But what really makes the tremors worse is not the preaching and friendly arguing about the Lords Weapon like we had today, but knowing that I and many more Christians like me are rowing against the tide, trying to win people over to Jesus Christ while the majority of this world fight against us as they continue down that broad road that leads to death and destruction.

Twenty years ago I was just like them, never thought twice about peoples feelings or the Lord Jesus for that matter, but he got my attention, oh boy did he(Thats a whole nother story), I grew a conscience on th spot and was born again, which means asking Jesus for forgiveness on how you have been leading your life, repenting of your sins, which means turning away from the things you know are sinful and displeasing in Gods eye, and start living your life as God intended not how you perceived it.

Have a Blessed weekend!

GODSPEED!

Let me clue you in.

1) A person does not need to be born again to live an honorable, moral, ethical, constructive, authentic and gracious life and saying that they do, alienates people.

2) Preaching at people, telling them that they're unworthy and deserve to go to hell Is not how you win people over. It also alienates people.

Try teaching by example. Worry about yourself, be a good person without rubbing it in other people's face.

Kwinholt
Kwinholt
in reply to MBAnderson

MB, I agree with you. I believe there’s someone looking out for me and I am a good person and don’t need a building to frequent to know I’m going to heaven . I’ve been witness to some hypocritical “Christians”that judge and flip people off as they leave the church parking lot. If we have a caring heart and are good to others we all are going to whatever heaven we believe in no matter what . ❤️ That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Karen

All 3 of these guys are harshly critical of and condemn Catholicism as a cult. Really??

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
TheLordsWeapon
TheLordsWeapon
in reply to Hidden

(Mark 2:16-17) When the scribes who were Pharisees saw Jesus eating with these people, they asked His disciples, “Why does He eat and spend time with tax collectors and sinners?” On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

-----------------------------

Dear Chartist,

I would guess there are more people here at this forum who are sick and in need of a doctor. versus those at a religious-based forum who are more inclined to believe in God and/or our Lord Jesus Christ.

GODSPEED!

PS. My original post was deleted by the mods.

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
alaynedellow
alaynedellow
in reply to Hidden

Thank you Art. The question posted was about suicide in relation to having PD. Also thanks to MB anderson for your pointers. X

I am glad I live where it is a legal option although I am nowhere near that at this time.

RS313
RS313
in reply to Juliegrace

Juliegrace, where do you live that its a legal option? I have never heard of this option.

Juliegrace
Juliegrace
in reply to RS313

Washington state.

CapSage
CapSage
in reply to Juliegrace

I think it's also legal in Oregon.

I would like to live in a country where it was an option ( I live inEngland) then at least you have the choice.

I wrote something on this in another thread, I tried to retrieve it now but its GONE MISSING

Firstly its good and beneficial to be optimistic, be positive and try to enjoy life as you will feel better, heal quicker and live happier and longer

However realistically, this is not always possible. I think suicide (or rather euthanasia) could become an option if the quality of life deteriorates to a state whereby pain and suffering becomes unbearable... happiness is gone, sadness rules the mind... you live a life of misery and become a burden (and expensive) to others

In such situation i believe dying with dignity via euthanasia would be the best option. Unfortunately this is not legal in most countries even though vets in these countries readily euthanize animals that are badly injured beyond repair in order to ensure they don't end up living a painful miserable life

I once saw a paraplegic man (paralysed from the neck down) on TV who was begging to be euthanized, but no one would oblige because it wasn't legal and would be done for murder

Living should be encouraged, but when the quality of life does not allow this, we should fight to be euthanized

Which ever country we are from, we should fight for euthanasia to be legalised

pdpatient
pdpatient
in reply to Grumpy77

Hi Grumpy. Is this the post that you are referring to?

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

Grumpy77
Grumpy77
in reply to pdpatient

Oh this 😁,

No, the post I'm referring to is actually a reply comment (not a main thread post) directly about euthanasia (or assisted suicide) and very very similar to what I posted again here

I believe its gone missing because the person I was replying to got banned for some comments in that same thread and so all his comments (together with replies to his comments) were all deleted by HU admin

But thanks 👍 anyway for reminding me that, not too long ago, I once wanted to chop off my own arm 😁😁😁

A while ago our local PD group got onto this subject and whether one would consider it a viable option or not I think people were relieved to know there was an out if things became impossible.

Voluntary euthanasia has just been legalised in Western Australia and it’s really taken a weight off my shoulders. Before that I was pondering various terrible options. (Swim out to sea....).

Not needed now, but I couldn’t go on if the meds didn’t work. Can’t bear that aching feeling in the shoulders and not being able to breath easily, and lurching and shuffling around.

I hope you can make a plan and then hopefully never have to use it.

Woofie123
Woofie123
in reply to Astra7

Swimming out to sea beyond the possibility of return seems a good option. When I was a child of 12 , i nearly drowned, but was rescued just as I was losing consciousness. I had entered a quiet, peaceful state, at one with the sea around me. It wasn’t so bad.

Grumpy77
Grumpy77
in reply to Woofie123

That's a new one to me.,.. i used to imagine drowning is very traumatic, since people fight and struggle to breathe air but gubble in unwanted water into their lungs which is not natural for the body... And slowly their brain is starved of oxygen

How can that process be peaceful?

Woofie123
Woofie123
in reply to Grumpy77

I am going on my own direct experience of it, not musing or surmising or theorising

CapSage
CapSage
in reply to Astra7

I hope we are all delivered by real cures very soon....

States with right-to-die laws on the books:

California Colorado Hawaii Montana Oregon Vermont Washington and Washington DC.

That doesn't mean it's easy to do. Most pharmacies don't want to cooperate. Nor do doctors. The Washington Post had a good article on a gal who was trying to end her life in DC and the hoops she had to jump through. She was dying of lung cancer. If I find that link I'll post it.

I've been thinking of this lately. Life HAS become intolerable but I don't think it my disease per se. I believe if I had better treatment and community and family support life would be better. Here in Republic of Ireland medical services have crashed. Doctors are leaving in droves, the medical services collapsing. We recently 'won' the top spot for the worst European country to live in if disabled! Life is grim....oh and family...I can't tell you about THEIR lack of support. Their answer to everything is "you need to be in a nursing home". no way...not on your nelly!

Your last sentence shows you've got the proper handle on dealing with the void of empathy from those closest to you. If trading them in for a more supportive 'community' is not an option, strive to become as independant of their support as possible and thrive DESPITE the emotional black hole you've landed in. Live long and prosper...

Woofie123
Woofie123
in reply to magicmags

I am very sad for you, but admire your resistance to your cruel family’s urging. It would be a living death to give up your freedom to go into one those places.

Would it be at all possible to move to the north and get care under the NHS?

ddmagee1
ddmagee1
in reply to magicmags

Thanks for sharing! I did not know it was tough, like what you are saying, to get support and help from the Republic of Ireland medical services. I thought the USA is bad, in regards to expense of treatment, and lack of support, from family and friends etc. I had thought of retiring in Ireland, but now, I don’t think so! In many places, in the U SA, medicine prices have skyrocketed, and if one doesn’t have $500.00, let’s say, to buy insulin, one is out of luck. When a man, dying of ALS, in a wheelchair, protested prices of medicine, in Washington, lawmaker’s wouldn’t listen to him, and he was arrested. He got no support, whatsoever from his government, for help. He was incapable of being a threat to anybody, because ALS robbed him of any physical ability, to move, and, yet, he was arrested! The medical community dropped the ball, too, because the attitude is, if you don’t take your medicine, you are non compliant. If you don’t have the means to pay for your medicine, or to pay, in full, your doctor’s bill, for seeing you, then, in many cases people are being turned away. No money, no service. It is really sad, for some elderly people, especially, in need, who can’t afford medicines and paying medical doctor’s bills. I have seen a complete lack of empathy, from both the government, and the medical community, in general, in wanting to, and actually helping, many of the most vulnerable citizens, in need of help! This has not always been the case. Years ago, when my grandmother became disabled, she got plenty of support from her family, and her doctor’s helped her, by giving her medical samples of medicine, needed for her condition, and let her make payments on her medical office visits billing. It was NOT their policy, to turn away an elderly patient, in need. The Government, at the time, passed laws to help the elderly, and infirm. My Grandmother got the help she needed, from the medical community, family, and the government. Nowadays, this is not the case for many citizens in need. There have been a number of citizens, who have died, from diabetes, because they can’t afford insulin, for example. Many ALS patents are not getting the help they need, and are having great difficulty! The list goes on and on. The cost of medical insurance premiums, and deductibles, has risen so much, over the last several years, that many people on fixed incomes, especially, are struggling. It is commonplace for signs in Doctor’s offices, stating that if one cannot pay the bill, in full, and proof of insurance, and payment of deductible paid promptly, there will be NO service given- no exceptions! If people are late in paying their medical care balances, oftentimes, medical treatment offices will turn their accounts, over to collection agencies, who demand payment in full. Patients are not given the luxury of making partial payments. So, service is withheld and patients suffer, as a result! Medicare premiums have risen so high, along with deductibles, so that many elderly, on fixed incomes, must choose between medical care, needed medicine, and food, transportation, and housing. Many can not afford to buy medicines, pay high mortgage/rental costs, buy food, and pay for medical visits. and transportation costs, with their fixed income. Some, so ill, that they can’t work, have to make difficult choices. It is very sad to see this decline, in caring, for those elderly and disabled, in the U SA. Many people are losing hope, of getting any help from anyone, for anything! The attitude of lack of respect, and willingness to help, towards the elderly, and disabled, has become very prevalent in our society these days.

magicmags
magicmags
in reply to ddmagee1

We have not yet got to USA private level of medical services . we have a two tier system. Public (free) & private (Insurance) the insurance system is a bit like America . policies don't cover everything so you still need money! though there are bigger packages that cover most. So if you want to come and retire in Ireland make sure you have private insurance at top whack rate! public services are good - when you get in - but long waiting lists. but if you had cancer, heart problems, broken leg public hospitals would look after you well. community services for chronic diseases , like physiotherapy, nursing care - almost non-existent. so its not all bad...but there's a struggle....my big struggle is community support and a neurologist who i can trust. i do not like or much trust my neurologist.

Bundoran
Bundoran
in reply to magicmags

There are also good subsidies for P-drugs.

Legality

Effect on relatives,by standers, first responders

Method

Morality

Effect and Legality of any who helps

Consequence of failure

nO

Sorry to be so blunt I just think life is precious on every level this should never be an option

I am newly diagnosed and I often contemplate the suicide option because I am not very strong or brave. Even when still healthy I often found it difficult to live. I wonder why anyone would claim and sincerely believe life is wonderful on every level :( It is a mantra people keep repeating without really thinking ............my belief at least.

NellieH
NellieH
in reply to narcisa956

nothing to add, just sending you a hug and wishing you some peace of mind.

narcisa956
narcisa956
in reply to NellieH

Thank you, I need both..............

NellieH
NellieH
in reply to narcisa956

I understand. My guess is, if you've struggled with this (and I've been there too) even before the diagnosis, that you are stronger and braver than you think. More hugs.

Woofie123
Woofie123
in reply to jeffmayer

Hey Jeff, so don’t do it, but don’t put your values on other people

jeffmayer
jeffmayer
in reply to Woofie123

Wasn't aware I was but I will expresmy opinion whatever don't read it it's your choice

How was he putting his values on other people’s? It seems like he is expressing his opinion , just like everyone else in this thread. It happens to be one with which you don’t agree.

He wrote “ this should never be an option”, which I took to mean it shouldn’t be allowed. How would you take it?

I have thought a lot about this although I’m not anywhere near needing to end my life. I strongly believe it’s a personal decision, but wherever possible, a joint one with loved ones. I watched my father deteriorate with PD, with dementia, pain, complete dependency, NO quality of life. I don’t think he would have voluntarily ended his life, but I don’t want to go through what he did, in part because of the pain I know it would cause my loved ones, in part because I’d rather my last moments be aware, dignified and autonomous. I completely respect those who think otherwise.

I live in California where voluntary euthanasia is legal, but only if the person has been medically determined to have less than 6 months to live, and is mentally capable of making this decision. Unfortunately, PD isn’t a condition that would likely put one in the position of doing this.

So I look into other options. There are organizations where information is available.

As far as religion, I don’t believe that a loving God or Goddess would condemn the choice to end one’s life if suffering is unbearable. My opinion only.

I was curious from this thread what different religions have to say on this, so I checked with Wikipedia. Interesting.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rel...

Much love to all of you, may we each walk our own path knowing that we are not alone.

Hi

Your Life is too precious be strong

People around you love ones need to be remembered they will help unconditionally

Try alternative treatment if traditional meds not helping keep positive

what’s precious about a life dominated by unbearable unremitting pain? Why would love ones prefer to stand by and watch that?

Unfortunately, both my parents had Parkinson’s disease and I looked after them for many years. Although I realise my own path may not follow theirs

( I sincerely hope not!) I know all too well what may lie ahead for me.

My mother had severe pain during the off periods and was on a continuous apomorphine pump to help with this, which it did, however it gave her very debilitating writhing movements as a side effect.

Pain seems to be a little discussed subject on Parkinson’s forums.

Apomorphine may be of help to you on a lower dose pdpatient to control your symptoms at night? Definitely speak to your neurologist again - there are ways of reducing your pain!

In answer to your question, I feel I have already made my decision in a rational and non-depressed state of mind, that I never want to get into the state my parents were in. When I feel my quality of life is too poor, I will go down the route of euthanasia. However it is not yet legal in the U.K. and I fear that by the time I wish to take action, it will be too difficult to hop on a train to Switzerland! So what we may wish for ourselves and what may be available, may make this impossible. I fear I am too much of a coward to take matters into my own hands.

But hopefully this is a long way off and I plan to make the very best of it! And who knows what therapies may become available along the way to ease our journey.

Thank you for bringing this very difficult subject to the fore, pdpatient

You sound like a thoughtful, compassionate person. I believe you will make the right decision for yourself, and that everyone should have the right to do that - to go on living, to seek (and get!) help, or to decide when they no longer wish to.

Regarding pain inflicted on others: if it's a decision you have come to over a long time, much of which you have spent doing all that you can, living as fully as possible, appreciating the world, loving your friends and family, allowing yourself to be loved by them, and they have seen you do all this and arrive at a point where you no longer can, then they will understand. They will just go on loving you until they draw their own final breaths in the manner that comes to them.

Many people in all walks of life, say enough is enough, and simply choose to stop eating and drinking. I have yet to hear anyone say they committed suicide.

I think we have all thought about ending our lives since diagnosis. I don't want to be disabled and don't want to be a burden on those people close to me. I just hope that there will always be a little something each day that keeps those thoughts firmly at the back of my mind.

My sister stopped eating to hasten her death from ovarian cancer. At first, I was so upset....but as the horrible cancer progressed, I agreed with her choice. Her example made me think about my life and where I would draw the line. I know my dad asked to die repeatedly when he was in the late stages of PD and was locked in a memory ward. He was miserable! I have informed my family that I will take my own life when I feel like it is too painful/miserable of an existence and too much of a burden on them (hopefully 40 years from now!). People used to pass more quickly so the burden on family wasn't so drawn out. I will probably just stop food/liquid as my sister did. It is such a hard decision to make. Watching my sister and mom die of an aggressive and horrible cancer really brought the reality of quality of life and burden on others to the forefront for me. I have worked in many nursing homes as well as helped my dad for the 4 years he was in a locked ward. Just a little FYI.......neglect is an understatement. My dad was in a super fancy one....behind closed doors....its all the same. I will never go in one as a permanent status.

People mostly do it, not because they want to end their LIFE but because they want to end their PAIN. I lost two family members to suicide. My brother had been in mental anguish for years and just started on meds and didn't give it time to help.

It's difficult to give someone else advice when we all go through ups and downs ourselves. I fight depression and apathy but lately I use the things that make me feel good to get past it. Sometimes it's only for the moment or a day. (Music is big for changing mood). It's often "in the moment" that people want to give up but getting past it is possible and probable. What is life all about that makes one want to hang on? A wise man wrote "a live dog is better off than a dead lion." We may all want to be a lion but I'm happy with a dog often enough. I love dogs!They are so loyal and nonjudgmental. We can learn a lot from them. Forgive my ramble but I hope you can find things that get you through those moments or days and keep your sights set beyond them. Hugs!

When we were born, it was as if we somehow suddenly dropped out of the open outer door of a flying airplane. We have no parachute. We cannot see the ground.

This metaphor can be expanded in numerous ways but for now, we will focus only on this life and the three choices we have for however long it may last.

1. We could disregard the inevitable and close our eyes. Indifference will thwart our view of the beautiful scenery on this journey.

2. We could flail and cry with fear. Again, missing the scenery.

3. Our third choice is to relax and enjoy the view, each minute of our life for however long it may last.

It is not my intent to even begin to scratch the surface of the infinitely complex discussion of where we came from and where or if we will go somewhere after this earthly experience, or if we get another drop. Thousands of thinkers and writers have discussed and debated these ideas for centuries. I have nothing to add.

Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Traditions and rituals of various religions can be likened to a finger. Many different fingers point towards the moon. However, the finger is not the moon. To see the moon as clearly as possible, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger.

Once I "graduated" from the religion that claimed to be the "One and Only" path to heaven, I started looking at the similarities between religions instead of the differences. Try it.

"If it's not about Love, it's not about God"

"I am certain that certainty can be dangerous.

Certainty and tolerance are inversely proportional.

As certainty increases, tolerance decreases.

Different and wrong are now synonyms.

That’s when the trouble starts."

Wow that's a big question, but you're not alone. I think everybody who lives with a debilitating disease, asks themselves that question a few times. It's something only you can answer. I think the biggest question is, how would it affect the ones you leave behind. I don't have that problem because my family have wiped me, due to my bipolar, my restless legs, heart attacks, and depression. They even told me they would prefer if I had cancer .... they could deal with that. The biggest question I'm asking myself now, is WTF haven't I? And I don't know what the answer is.

SilentEchoes
SilentEchoes
in reply to TEAH35

Hurt people, hurt people. Seek to heal your own wounds first and love yourself . When you find peace within, then you can begin to build new supportive relationships. There are good people in the world but you have to open yourself up so they can enter your life. Wishing for you the love you deserve.

The Bible as we know it is greatly altered. There are many incorrect translations, many parts changed by the rulers of the time, pages removed and pages added , but the message of peace and love that has spread has brought humanity into a more civil existential state. Suicide? Bah! IMHO reflects only a very low emotional state of the person. There is no painful physical state that justifies it for a mentally healthy person and not under the influence of drugs. Many drugs indicate "suicidal impulses" as an undesirable effect. As long as you feel the pain, you can bear it, otherwise you would fall into a state of unconsciousness which is the body's mechanism for avoiding pain too much strong.

The theme of this discussion is more related to life in general and drugs than to the PD as highlighted by the comments.

Until I live in a society (and state) where all means of pain/nausea control and mental health care are available and affordable, I refuse to judge those who want or take this path. I grew up in a culture that almost glorified suffering - the more you suffered, the more deserving you were of heaven. My father, clinically depressed, struggling unsuccessfully to avoid bankruptcy, and like many others, dealing with the trauma of deprivation and loss (his first wife was an Army nurse who died in a plane crash near Naples) caused by war, committed suicide. So I do understand the horror and guilt of being a suicide survivor. But as a nurse I've taken care of plenty of people with unfathomable pain, air hunger, nausea, etc, and no family member EVER said after their death " I'm so glad they suffered". Indeed, many felt and verbalized a consuming sorrow that their loved one had to endure so much - and for what? I'm a scaredy cat - have a feeling I will scratch and claw at the tiniest chance to stay on this earth rather than leave my loved ones, but who knows.

There is a phenomenon in America, that is especially prevalent in Florida, of murder/suicide among the elderly; primarily husbands killing their wives who are ill and then themselves. It really forks up the survivors. Suicide is selfish.

I was concerned that my stepfather would commit this heinous act and I confronted him about it. I think getting it out in the open was a strong deterrent. My mom never expressed a desire to be killed and I would not forgive him if he did this. She has passed away and her husband is in poor health, he still has a gun in the house and might choose to use it on himself at some point. I've expressed my concern to his daughters and they dismissed it.

Because I have a terminal diagnosis, I have thought a lot about quality of life and also the trauma a fugly death like ALS will inflict on my children who live at home and have to bear witness.

I can see where a well thought out end of life plan that includes loved ones can be a blessing to all.

You say that you are not "contemplating it [suicide] right now," this suggests that you are not including loved ones in the decision making process. Instead of having an inner dialogue with yourself, perhaps you should seek counseling for a more balanced point of view to help you sort out these feelings.

SE

Hi Silentechoes. Thank you for your thoughts, but I believe that a dialogue with anyone else is a guaranteed recipe for hastened disaster. I am not sure if open discussion is a wise idea. Hence my reach out to the group.

We are not professionals and can only relate our own experiences. Please find someone to talk to in person to help you.

It's not weakness to seek support, sometimes we need help reframing the problem.

Getting a life changing diagnosis doesn't just effect us, our loved ones are grieving too, maybe start the conversation by asking about their feelings, what are their worries, etc. and share from there.

These are my thoughts on steps you can take. I have a living will and have discussed my wishes with my husband and one of my adult sons (the others aren't ready to talk about this), it wasn't easy but it was necessary. We never know when it will be our time. My focus now is making memories and preparing my husband and kids for life without me. They are resilient and I want them to be emotionally prepared and supported.

I'm getting a relationship established with a grief counselor now to make it easier for my family to ask for support in the future from someone they are familiar with and trust. I don't want my kids forked up and risk the bright future ahead of them.

I've chosen to let go of toxic relationships, it still hurts and I'm still grieving. I have no chance of getting well if I don't heal my past and the emotional trauma inflicted by these people, so they have to go.

I have no idea what you need to do to address your family dynamics, but you are only responsible for yourself. And no matter what you think, you always have a choice. From my point of view, suicide is never the answer.

SE

Well said, SilentEchoes :

"I've chosen to let go of toxic relationships, it still hurts and I'm still grieving. I have no chance of getting well if I don't heal my past and the emotional trauma inflicted by these people, so they have to go."

I did the same.

I am not one to judge someone who, unable to bear the pain of their condition, chooses to end their life. I would suggest that beyond physical pain, psychological and existential pain probably contribute to taking such an extreme step. I personally have lost several friends to suicide over the years. I think about them often. Suicide can be a terrible loss for loved ones left behind. For that reason alone I probably wouldn’t do it, the extremity of circumstances notwithstanding.

It's not an option as far as Islam is concerned.

Quite possible that the cure is discovered within our lifespans

Very good question pdpatient. Yes i have thought of my end of life. I don't hink of it as suicide more a leaving on my own terms. My life is mine andwhat i do whilst alive is my choice and hence my leaving should be mine to choose too (whether legally available i'm not so sure but as hopefully decades away maybenot a worry).

I am not concerned about pain particularly but more the lack of ability to move. The loss of me and what i hold dear. My sons are aware of my thoughts and support me- we all die and is not to be scared of, once i am gone they can accept that but the longer they see mesuffer they suffer.

Our death and passing is something we all need to prepare for because we all die.

Again a good question thank you.

pdpatient,

Although I have already replied to your question on suicide, in reading today, I realized that there is another potential major repercussion to suicide that I had not considered and to be honest, was not even aware of.

In the United States alone in 2017, there were 47,173 suicides! The shear number is mind boggling, but that is not the point I am trying to make. In the US in that same year there were 1,400,000 attempted suicides! That means there were 1,352,827 failed suicides! There is no way to know for sure how these failed suicides were left, health wise, as a result of the attempted suicide, but it does not seem to be a stretch of the imagination to think that many of these people were likely left in a worse condition than before the attempted suicide.

If a person's intent in considering suicide was to remove a perceived burden from their loved ones, these statistics may give those people pause as according to those statistics, there may be a very good chance that you survive the attempt and may end up in a worse state, health wise, than you were and may possibly add to that perceived burden on your loved ones. Here is a link to those very basic stats :

afsp.org/about-suicide/suic...

Again, this further adds to the complexity of this issue.

Art

Bundoran
Bundoran
in reply to chartist

Apparently if you try suicide with prescription drugs there is a good chance you will fail and wake up brain damaged.

chartist
chartist
in reply to Bundoran

Yes and that would tend to work against anyone who thinks suicide is relieving a burden from their loved ones. Just imagine if the person was "brain damaged"!

Art

GioCas
GioCas
in reply to chartist

Art ,

speaking by metaphor...

to jump from the Titanic is also useless.😂

and I might add, a bit chilly! 🚢🌊🌊🌊🚢

Wanda, my MIL died last night. She was 95. For the past few weeks my wife has been with her in Connecticut. She knows what I do for a living--veterinarian--and that I euthanize elderly pets every day. Many of our clients have said, why can't this be done for elderly suffering people? I think it's an option now in Oregon. Wanda had been asking if my wife could give her "the shot". The whole family is staunch Catholic but wanted this as well. Personally, I've always been a weenie about pain. IF I had something incurable and causing me real pain I'd be ready to give myself 'the shot".

pdpatient
pdpatient
in reply to kaypeeoh

Kaypeeoh

My condolences to you and your family for the loss of your MIL.

The biggest takeaway I have from this discussion is that if one wants to go the suicide route , one must succeed in doing so. Any half hearted or unsuccessful attempt can only lead to more misery.

kaypeeoh
kaypeeoh
in reply to pdpatient

You'd think having a gun would make it easy. Several years ago a close friend was killed by her husband. He shot her in the face from 3 ft away. Then he tried to shoot himself but bungled it, merely shooting off half his face. So for the rest of his miserable life he gets free medical care and housing care of the state.

You may also like...