So, I’m seriously considering micro-d... - Parkinson's Movement

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So, I’m seriously considering micro-dosing of lithium. Anyone been down this path, i.e., any of you die from this?

This is a popular write-up on the GSK3 enzyme.

So far as I can tell, at autopsy, there are typically a variety of species of gunk present (a/sun, tau, etc.) —not just one—and correct diagnosis is associated with the most prevalent species.

My thinking (at the moment) is that genetics dictate which of the different species of gunk, but the dynamics of aggregation that drive progression are mostly the same.

So I follow anything in any of the neurodegenerative illnesses that seem to help and so far generally find what works in one, works in others.

Again, if asymptomatic people have our species in their brains at autopsy, then our symptoms can be significantly retarded as well.

The newsiest part of this article is that the infinitesimal mcg dose of Lithium stabilized Alzheimer’s patients with no further cognitive decline while the placebo group continued to deteriorate.

Lithium is a GSK3 inhibitor and an autophagy stimulant.

The ultra-low dose of Lithium (300mcg) is a tiny fraction of the bipolar dose, analogous to the amount in the drinking water in some places... where they have unusually low rates of suicide, homicide, violence, arrests, and depression.

It’s considered a “dementia preventative”

Lithium Orotate is a health food supplement.

Used in high doses for years with no known drug interactions and the ultra low dose does the job.

I like the “trace dose” meds because the risk/benefit is always zero to positive and it’s not enough to provoke a drug interaction.

lifeextension.com/Magazine/...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

For me, even with no miracle cure, if the progression were halted, I’d be a happy camper.

Marc

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At first, having family that is Bi-Polar, and aware of Lithium toxicity I thought that was probably ill advised until I noticed "Micro" . Interesting thing about the accidental use of toxic substance in micro amounts is it is almost always beneficial. This is being recognized by the medical world . It seems to have really hit home with discovery of a very large residence building in Japan that was approximately 40 years old . Many people had lived there the complete 40 years and many others had come and gone. It was discovered that there was a very high source of nuclear radiation under the building which sent everyone into a panic and authorities removed it and sent in teams of medical testers and found:

NOTHING , no cancer of any kind, no shorting of life, no genetic degradation , just the opposite , a lot of very happy , healthy people , who were living longer than the national average but with out decease or complaint. This continues in some who only lived there a few years. Similar findings in cases of long term exposure to minute amounts of some poisons have occurred also. Apparently what does not kill you , may make you strong. Who knew ?

I printed out the information from the site you linked so that my family with Alzheimer , depression, and diabetes, will read it too .

Thank you

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I follow the blog of a woman who is trying many things in a very thoughtful way to reverse her symptoms.

pathwithpaws.com/blog/categ...

Scroll down for her regimen, which includes lithium. In general, recommended reading. Her doctor is naturopath Laurie Mischley.

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Thank you rebtar. Well, she certainly has a positive attitude -- in spades. And, she seems to have landed on all the right supplements pretty quickly. (I, too, have studied all of Laura Mischley's stuff, including her PhD thesis .)

She's taking 40 mg a day of lithium and baseofspades is taking 20 mg. I was expecting to take a micro dose, about 300 mcg. I need to do some more reading because I don't want to waste time on a micro dose if I should be on a mg dose. She probably started with a lot of those supplements around the same time, so like the rest of us, she can't put her finger on what exactly is working.

I'm beginning to entertain the same belief she has that it may be possible to find the sweet spot regimen, i.e., just the right combination of things that stabilizes the progression which would almost certainly be personalized and not work as well for most others. I strongly believe there is some PWP somewhere who have stabilized their progression -- that we don't know about.

I'm encouraged by her.

I haven't said it before, but I take 95 mg of Nilotinib twice a day. My symptoms first appeared in 2009 and I take only 2 or 3 Sinemet per month, ( when I'm going to a social event,) so I feel like I'm progressing quite slowly and sometimes not at all.

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There are definitely people who have progressed VERY slowly. Some few who have reversed symptoms (I know one, Bianca Molle). I also believe it's possible for some, I just don't know if I'm one of those. You certainly are!!!

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2 or 3 Sinemet per month ??? And what do you think of the work of Marty Hinz ??

I've seen last weekend there has been a conference about neurotransmitters....

Would be nice if I can get the continence of the items they spoken about.....

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JANVAN, I've only read some of what Marty Hinz has published. Haven't read his book, haven't yet studied the material, so I really don't know much about it.

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Can you pls share your protocol..? I am especially curious about Nilotinib's effect on your symptoms..??

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I take pretty much the same stuff everyone else does. I’m always tweaking it.

Nilotinib; 95 mg twice a day.

Condranol; 2 mL injection once a month.

L-ergothioneine + Ergocalciferol (brand ERGO4)

Isradapine

S-Acetyl Glutathione

Trehalose (disaccharide)

DHA

EGCG (green tea)

Trans-Resveratrol

L- Carnitine

Beta Cyclodextrin (a selective fiber)

Apple cider vinegar

flaxseed oil

PQQ

Thiamine

CDP Choline

B complex, one hundred milligrams each B

Mannitol

Magnesium L-threonate

Omega-3 fish oil

NAC

Probably going to begin Metformin, Naltexone, and lithium carbonate or lithium orotate if I can’t get the lithium carbonate by prescription. My wife’s doctor’s mother had Parkinson’s, so he’s pretty good about prescriptions.

We are 90% adherents to Ketogenic diet. Approximately half my meals are freshly juiced vegetables. I fast 15 hours every day and 24 hours once a week. Don’t consume alcohol, soft drinks, red meat, dairy, bread, most lectins, gluten, sugar, processed or fried food. I walk four miles every morning and spend 45 minutes in the gym every other day. I am in the process of increasing that.

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Whoops. I forgot an important one. A small swallow of virgin olive oil with most meals.

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That's an impressive list Marc. Just wondering why you take both Mannitol and Trehalose? I know about Nilotinib but have not heard of the next three on your list - what are the benefits of these? Are you not taking any Sinemet?

Your diet and lifestyle are exemplary - wish I could get my husband to eat, drink & exercise like you. He finds movement very difficult now (was diagnosed nearly 13 years ago), and is presently suffering with very debilitating back pain. How long since you were diagnosed?

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No mention of the prized: High Dose Thiamine? Is it included in your sweeping reference to B vitamins?

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Amy, curious that I forgot that one. Yes, I'm taking thiamine HCL orally, going on 6 months, but I am not having the dramatic results many others are, i.e., my symptoms haven't diminished. I'm currently at 6 g a day, have been at 4 g a day for month, 3 g a day for a month, 2 g a day for month and nada.

I get my healthcare at the VA as I assume you do and so you know they won't prescribed thiamine injections off label because they won't prescribed anything off label. My wife's doctor's mother had Parkinson's and I got a prescription for Isradapine from him, so I'm gonna go back to him for thiamine injections prescription. I'm marshaling my case to put in an email to him in advance my visit.

Sounds like you have found an outside doctor who will prescribe injections for you?

Marc

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I never took Nilotinib by itself, so I don't know.

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My tremor appeared early in '09 and I was diagnosed in July 2011.

I take both mannitol and trehalose because there is data for both, but I may drop one if I find their mechanism of action is identical.

I take 2 or 3 Sinemet a month.

There is no way for me to know if anything on my list is doing any good.

Condronal all was originally invented as an eye injection for macular degeneration, then re-purposed to prevent organ transplant rejection. My daughter breeds and trains horses as jumpers and injects them with Condronal to keep the inflammation in their legs down. A number of family and friends say it greatly relieves their arthritis so I take it as an anti-inflammatory. My daughter gives me my supply. Ergothioneine is of white mushroom extract. I've never seen it on the market. The doctor who invented it (Marvin Hausman) gives me my supply. (I believe he ran trials with the Michael J Fox Foundation.) Isradipine is an old, weak drug (it takes 6 weeks for a blood serum to reach therapeutic level) for hypertension. It's in phase III trials for being neuroprotective, but the data is not very robust. On bad days, I have back pain, too.

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For how long have been taking Tasigna (Nilotinib)? Its more expensive than the stem cell therapy!!

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I had it made by a compounding pharmacy in China. $700 per year. That means if Novartis makes 100 pounds at a time, it probably cost them $0.10 a gram or about $7 per year.

I've been on this dose since August 23, 2017. I started the last 2 months of 2016, then stop for 5 weeks, then resumed at 50 mg per day and slowly titrated my way up - having an EKG on the 7th day each time I changed my dose.

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You have sorted out a good solution for the cost. Does it really help in terms of symptomatic relief and slowing the progression?

I know that there is trial going on by Michael J Fox Foundation with the name NILO-PD but still it is in phase 2. Cannot wait till the completion of that trial (expected by 2020 end)

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Correction; I said I started the last 2 months of 2017. That should have been 2016.

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Ah I see now that you have already answered these questions below, I apologise Gio

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Here is a good article about lithium entitled:

Lithium as a Nutrient

Timothy M. Marshall, Ph.D.

jpands.org/vol20no4/marshal...

It is the best evaluation of lithium I have read.

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Hi rick. What dosage would you recommend pls?

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That is a good question because even at this time, to my knowledge, there is no RDA for lithium. RDA, recommended daily allowance, is set for a nutrient to prevent disease and not optimize health. The RDA for thiamine (to prevent beriberi) is as follows:

14–18 years 1.2 mg 1.0 mg

19-50 years 1.2 mg 1.1 mg

51+ years 1.2 mg 1.1 mg

ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/T...

These doses are hardly going to help PwP as compared to the 4,000 mg/day of thiamine which many of you take. The following article notes,

"The available experimental evidence now appears to be sufficient to accept lithium as essential; a provisional RDA for a 70 kg adult of 1,000 microg/day is suggested."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/118...

Given 1 mg of lithium for a 70 kg/154 pound person can prevent disease the therapeutic dose of lithium for PwP should be higher. This link was posted earlier...

pathwithpaws.com/blog/categ...

...and the author was advised by Dr. Laurie Mischley and "I take 40mg a day". In lieu of not having a micronutrient test for lithium, 40 mg/day would be the upper limit and 5 mg/day should be the lower limit. Many lithium supplements can be purchased at 5 mg, for example:

duckduckgo.com/?q=lithium+o...

How you react to lithium totally depends on your biology. I thought about taking low dose lithium but felt I did not need it. I do not suffer from any mood disorder/depression and do not have suicidal or criminal tendencies. Given I had a strong reaction to both M12/methylcobalamin and Methyl folate, both transported by lithium into cells I concluded that the lithium content in my brain/central nervous system was fine.

Here is Dr. Michley's lithium thesis:

digital.lib.washington.edu/...

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I'm conservative when it comes to prescriptions and exotic stuff like Nilotinib and lithium. I'm going to start a 5 mg per day and MAY go to 10 mg a day after 2 or 3 months. I'll leave all my other stuff as is, watch for change and I'll report back.

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Good paper and I'm convinced, but the last line of the paper said Dr. Marshall is going to begin marketing lithium.

It's pretty common for nutritionists, as well as specialist in other fields, whose research becomes widely recognized and accepted to market products and/or sell their knowledge which, by itself, doesn't necessarily undermine their credibility.

I'm fine with experts selling books, but I'm unresolved about their selling supplements.

How do you feel about that?

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What is most important to me is that the scientific research is good and the research will result in a quality health product. Dr. Jack Bukowski investigated the immunomodulating effects of tea and discovered the non-protein amino acid L-theanine boosted the immune system:

telegraph.co.uk/news/scienc...

Later he filed a patent for using theanine to boost the immune system,

Alkylamines and their precursors as specific modulators of human gamma-delta t cell function

patents.google.com/patent/W...

I share Dr. Bukowski's enthusiasm for theanine and take it prior to bed to enhance sleep. Theanine has also been shown to be neuroprotective in a PD model:

Protective effect of the green tea component, L-theanine on environmental toxins-induced neuronal cell death.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/184...

Just so the product is good I have no problem with it. I am less fond of super self promoting Drs like Mercola. Yes he posts good information but the pop ups, products, etc... are pretty garish and I avoid his website. Just give me the science and I can figure out which supplement I will take well enough.

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Thanks. Good point. I went on about Mercola in my post too, but then deleted it. He pushes everything and everything can't be that wonderful.

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Laurie Mischley says that NDs talk about how water should be lithiated rather than fluoridated. She thinks most everyone can benefit from low dose lithium. I believe she told me she takes it herself and when she stops her husband is not happy, or it may be the other way around. (It's been several years since I've seen her.)

I took 5mg lithium orotate for a year or so. I stopped when my supplement stack was taking me thirty minutes to choke down. I didn't notice a change one way or the other.

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My two favorite people aside from Art, Gio, Roy, etc 😁, thanks Julie because I noticed by way of your alert that too much 100% Mucuna was definitely was causing dyskinesia so I cut the dosage down a little bit and saw some change, then my other favorite person Marc aka health forum therapist said he would cut that stuff with a lower dosage Mucuna which I did and so far so good 😊. No dyskinesia do far. Thank you all

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Hi, I think you should do it. In another post of bassofshade, he showed his protocol of Marty Hinz and they also mentioned lithium.

My doktor, Dr. Joachim Mutter, also use it sometimes in his protocol ! detoxklinik.de/publikationen/ >>>> that his link with publications, just some, but o.k. at least some, in english (not specific about lithium).

Unfortunately, I can't say anything about the dosis........

(but you have to keep in mind : (I think, Aristoteles has said it : the dose makes the poison))

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Thank you for this, MBAnderson (Marc?). Some time ago I read about the uses of Lithium in very small doses for Alzheimer's but doctors have seemingly not taken up the cue (not in South Africa at any event) when it sounds so promising. I hope our Parkies can benefit.

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Here's my recommendation: 20mg / day for 2 weeks then kick it down to 10mg / day. Try that for one or 2 months and see if you notice a difference in mental clarity. I sure did! Read "Nutritional Lithium: A Cinderella Story: The Untold Tale of a Mineral That Transforms Lives and Heals the Brain" by James Greenblatt, Kayla Grossmann.

Start reading it for free: a.co/iG0NUWE.

There is a chapter on pd.

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“Page not found ... “ re: book

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Nutritional Lithium: A Cinderella Story: The Untold Tale of a Mineral That Transforms Lives and Heals the Brain amazon.com/dp/B01FT4OGDI/re...

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Thanks, looks interesting. I will see if it's available on my reader/Kindle.

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I have it on Kindle

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I suspect everyone else cannot read from books either. Boo-hoo. I'm probably just old school, but I prefer the real thing over a video screen.

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I own a kindle for about 2 years now which I bought on a cyber Monday for $40 downloaded about 5 books, but could not get used to reading off a screen. I'm with stupid😁 I love to read books.

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Thank you all for responding, for all the good, additional information, and your support and thank you Rich for that article. I'm sold. I'm going to do it.

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Lithium enhances transport of B12 into cells (according to the following link nancymullanmd.com/big-deal-...

and since B12 deficiency can create many neurological symptoms this way lithium might help to prevent them. However, lithium can suppress thyroid function, so it's good to monitor your thyroid hormone levels, especially if taking high doses of Li.

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I have used lithium orotate off and on for a few years because I can't seem to tolerate anti-depressants. I have dysthymia but it was thought bipolar at one time. I was put on lithium carbonate for 2 years after severe depression and felt better mentally than when taking other types of anti-depressants. I've had depression on and off since a teenager and now 66 yrs. old. When I went off of it I found I was fine and had few minor ups and downs like most people and didn't tolerate dark winters well so tried orotate. It comes in 5 mg. pills. In Canada they have now banned it but I saw it on Amazon.ca (I stocked up because had heard rumors). End of winter I always need a boost and am back on it now and just taking about 1/3 of the 5 mgs. each day. It definitely helps to microdose. My mood is coming up and so is the sun more so won't need it soon but I can definitely feel the effect. I read the article you mentioned about areas where it occurs naturally in the soil/water and was fascinated. Canadian Government Health here always bans what works and becomes popular, saying we wouldn't know how to dose ourselves?? We do just fine with many everyday products that could be overdosed. Wonder if they will ban apple cider vinegar next. Have a great day and enjoyed your post.

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Thank you for this. Do you think of smaller doses, i.e., one third tablet is more effective than a 5 mg dose?

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It's just the need I have right now of a smaller dose more for anxiety and a bit depressed. A small amount doesn't affect my energy level which is not so good lately but as for depression I did use 5 mg. It is often used for PTSD patients and I understand why. It is very calming. Having dysthymia mean my body reacts quickly to things. What a yo yo.....Ha!

I would say start small for a few days or more and add a few mgs. more if you need it. Some take more but I researched the amounts people were taking safely and some used as much as 25mg. or even more. The warnings are that it will affect some organs (kidney??) but not in smaller amounts. Lithium carbonate is much more dangerous in my opinion.

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I'm pretty conservative when it comes to exotic things like lithium, I will go with one third tablet for couple months. I won't be trying to increase the dose, instead I'll be trying to keep the doses lowest possible.

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I’m on low dose lithium per Mischley recommendation and findings that most w PD are low in it + benefit

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