thought some might be interested in grades on knees mine is now grade 3 in 12 months
so i whent from norm to that and nothing showing on mri xray all the way through i cant belive it this inflamation stuff can cut through anything for biger picture try this link
It looks like a knee replacement for you my friend.xx
Bet you're glad you had that investigation op now John! Tildax
well tilda
you yourself said if you dont have it done you will never know now i wish i had left well alone at 2 weeks out but the pics give you an idia of grade 3 so all the exersise i have been doing aint going to pull it back in line
the thing that gets me tilda is what is the inflamitory process which started of in that knee and whent else where with no show up in bloods that did this in like 9 months
what is such a good acid that does this no one is saying
or are their some types of enthesis out their that are damaging ones
fair wear and tear dont do that to you.
when i saw the xrax it looked to me like equal spacing maybe a little bit out and that was last june about
no one did any other xrays of that joint prior to investigation
i have got the swelling down as much as possible doing what i know best but feet and ankles going red and watery then drying up at night.
at the start of this its as if this thing new all my week points on my body to take out with the inflamation.
and ive had a few real bad flares since op but i know this can sometimes be from the operation process where the bodys imune system can have a bit of a problem resolving some of the issues and goes hay wire.
if i could resolve the feet going cold and pressure point sores i seem to get i could go forward better
but im conserned with what options i have when i see him in april
like you im not a happy bunny at the way ive been treated when i told them the problem and they said nothing wrong with you at all from xrays mri scans
but everyone knows where their body is giving out pain dont they but doctors just look at what they have to go with
i have got the letter to my doctor where the surgon says their is nothing WRONG with his knee but under the circumstances and the lengh of time i feel we need to investigat the knee but the danger factor is that if we find nothing it will not resolve his knee problem WELL GESS WHO WAS RIGHT TILDA
i now know where you have been coming from with the problems you have had with investigations and difrent diagnosis
regards john
as long as you havent started eating carrots and growing long ears lol !!! that is a rabbit xray he he xx
i know summer but it shows what one looks like at grade 3 gives you some idea no cartlidge in inside of knee left so all the exersise trying to keepthe quad and vmo strong is going to pull things back in line
but i do like raw carrots lol
my chap had his cartlidge removed in one knee if plays him up.. lot of sport
John its quite common to get joints that are affected by severe osteoarthritis so if I were you I'd go and speak to your GP now and talk through your options. Many people have knee replacements at a younger age than you. I know you like to keep yourself fit but knee replacements are very good these days so that would probably be the best way forward.
The scary part of inflammatory arthritis to me is the systemic inflammation which can affect your organs and eyes and even your blood. Osteo is mainly just mechanics, and horrible as it is to get older and degenerate it just happens to all of us to a greater or lesser extent. If you are worrying that the OA knee has been accelerated by an as yet unidentified inflammatory condition then keep on pestering your GP. I just dont know enough about cold feet and such like though so perhaps it is part of spondy but it seems possible to me that its just aggressive OA. But I wouldn't be reading too much into the rapid changes until you've spoken to your GP if I were you. Tilda
yes tilda
i belive now if i was honest the private rumi i saw was correct on an spondyoropathy enthesis point of veiw he said none damaging that would possibly go or need to be on sulpazine for 1 year and see.
the thing is i belive when your ligaments are attacked in this way that the inflamation that the body sends as a response to this does quite a bit of damage.
for instance if the main stabaliser of the acl in the knee gets ripped then you would have to strengthen the patela and the quad and the vmo mussle to hold that joint from slipping forward if you get my meaning.
but when the attack is at main ligament sites the knock on effect is like and inflamation process that moves on to other joints to compensate for it .
the cold feet i think as we discussed before could be a bit of renolds
but i would bet its to do with the popolite artery in the back of the knee getting flatened some what because of the knee joint moving forward squashing it along with not being as active.
i darnt say this to some of these people cos they think they know better
but to me its not rocket sience to eliminate things.
i told them over and over about the knee joint but would they listen and in the end i was right
said knee not tracking and feels like im walking on one bearing pad in their with something like ACL not holding
get you on the bed test the acl well not much movment well the strength of the quad and petela where holding it after 5 years of swimming
but they knew when I did it i could sublux my knee by 1/4 inch
AND GESS WHAT I WAS BLOODY CORRECT ALL ALONG.
one of my technical days to you tilda.
hope the weather is being kinder up their its damp and misrable down here today
Yes that was a tad too technical for my sleepy old brain John! I really think these medics do need challenging and that you could well be right. After all you are thinking and researching it everyday whereas you are just a number puzzle to them and if they can dismiss things they will.
Sorry if I sounded a bit unsympathetic and grumpy yesterday. Just found out that a close friend has cancer and its not looking good. He too was palmed off by 4 different GPs until finally referred for scans - much time wasted.
If your knee was in that state when you've tried really hard to get on top of it (pardon the pun) through swimming and told them over and over that its wrong then I think you can demand an explanation and a referral to the rheumy. They shouldn't have dropped you but as with Earthwitch they are too busy focussing on making swift judgements and not on being good doctors. If I were you I'd shout from the rooftops about this (write to your practice manager, MP - anyone who will listen) so that they give you the best treatment from here onwards. I do believe its the only way to improve things. We shouldn't settle for moaning on this site to each other but should stand up (or not in your case - sorry). Sock it to 'em please John! Tildax
YEP I DO GET A BIT TECHNICAL SOMTIMES ITS JUST THE ENGINEER COMMING OUT BUT LIGAMENTS AND BONES ARE NOT MUCH DIFERENT TO A BOLT AND AN ELASTIC BAND.
FOR EXAMPLE
if you wound up your elastic band plane with a complete elastic by 20 turns how far would it fly.
if you then cut the same elastic band 1/4 way through and did the same would it fly as far or would it snap before 20 turns.
i once said to AN APPRENTICE
describe me hooks 3rd law of motion or draw me a spud
and he drew a spud and got it wrong cos he didnt put the eyes on the drawing
get it tilda
Hey I'm an artist John - not easily fazed by talk if rubber bands or spuds you know! This is why I say that I fear the systemic side of these autoimune diseases much more than joint trouble because I prefer what I can see and feel and trust pain to keep me right - but bloods and organs and eyes worry me far more personally.
I think the clue for you could be in the Reynauds which is autoimmune and yours sounds as if its getting worse. That needs diagnosing soon and this could push your docs into thinking hard and fast about what's actually going on with you. Secondary Reynauds can be quite serious you know so I wouldn't just focus on the osteo knee (could well be secondary)? I know the engineer in you is always thinking of the mechanics but you should consider your whole system not just the joints. Reynauds is what I would focus on most if I were you. Tx
i know ive read up on it tilda from you and that think at secondary is realy seriouse shit if you forgive my french
and i think it is and addition
dont know weather it was you or earthwhitch wich talked about secondary thing happening in relation to ra or inflamotory immune systems (but that did catch my attention very much so) and i belive is a verry good theory to
Yes - don't want to get u too worked up John but I do think the cold feet are a worry and I really would try and see your GP asp and make a double appointment. Look them in the eye and tell them how you see things as clearly as you can. Don't let them fob you off this time its too important. Think of my friend and his advanced cancer just because the GPs didn't believe him. X
i will i have podiatry on friday and to back me up on this if it gets worse i will go to docs or walk in centre they are a wee bit sore today but not blue as bad quite looking normal at moment but at night the vains in my feet pump blood thats so warm into them it make you feel like climbing the wall things where settling down a bit before opp
probably cos i was doing more walking
and another thing could be the inflamation is going down their from the knee opp instead of being going up the leg so im realy keeping my eye on it
wife thinks im being a bit to much on it but dvt is not good to have if you calf mussle starts hurting can be good night viena in days if not treated
Hi John, joint destruction is my big fear (I'm responding mainly to your reply to Tilda's first comment). My blood inflammation levels wobble around & look increasingly okay and I'm lucky in that I have very little pain. HOWEVER, my history to date is that every time a joint really starts hurting, swelling, stiffening or whatever then some degree of permanent damage occurs alarmingly quickly - tons more quickly than it is 'meant to' with this disease. My experience of secondary Osteoarthritis (i.e. OA caused by RA) is that it is potentially crippling & of quite a different order to the OA that many (but by no means all) suffer from as part of the ageing process. At its worst it can make normal life impossible.
I read about people who have awful pain, really high inflammatory markers etc. & realise how lucky I am ..... but some kinds of RA seem to really go to town on a joint, yet leave it intact once the meds are sorted out & mine is not like that. My Rheumy is aware of how it has affected me so far but needs 'encouragement' to stay on the ball! Without terrible pain or fatigue I sometimes bury my head in the sand but I do have some very real & wholly justified fears about my joints & next appointment I'm going to make sure my Rheumy knows all about them in glorious technicolour!! Sounds like that's going to be your approach too!
Luce xx
hi luck you can say that again
one joint follows on to the other verry verry fast and what mine seem to do was start under the knee capps like nettle stinging permanently then moved to lower back then in to left leg ankle then feet going red raw
i could not keep control of the thing then into my arms after been swimming then in 3 days felt hands the finger koints sore before i new it the fingers had little red nodules on it 3 BLEEDING DAYS IT WAS THEIR and people cos i was wallking around didnt beleive me untill they saw them
so your right in ra to ao in areas
please kep your eye on what happens cos i always thought things in ra or ao whas a slow profile that came on
in the early days last year i was thinking it was ms or some kind of bug that had invaded me at the swimming pool and got inside me
but the op at 2 weeks out has realy made this thing flare again like imune system dosnt know what its doing again
as an engineer i think i have quite a good understanding of what is happening but others like doctors dont thing things can happen quite that fast
i saw the xray of the joint before in june last year and the paperwork said no difference to 2005 in wear
so if its like that after 12 months where did all that joint go to it didnt just vanish on its self did it
so we will have to see what we get in april as options but i myself dont beleive a new knee loint will solve the problem in the other areas, but thats just my view at present.
regards john
I think Rheumatology services seem to be geared towards treating 'slow burn' types of inflammatory arthritis. What I like about the Rheumy dept. I go too is that I feel they are with me for the long haul - they are quite organised, they make the effort to get to know patients - but quick response does not seem to be part of their game plan.
I have been given all sorts of reasons other than RA why my knee and hip sustained permanent damage - every medic I see rubbishes the others' theories! And when I feared it was happening - and indeed it was happening - I was told 'don't worry dear, RA takes at least a couple of years to damage a joint.'
When you ask where your joint went to I really understand. And joint destruction is serious sh*t. I think you are right to seek a proper, secure diagnosis which will lead to the right treatment and therefore prevent the same thing happening in other areas. Knee replacements can be very good but, as they say, prevention is better than cure. At the moment both my hands are swollen and fairly painful (the pain bit is unusual for me). If it is in any way, shape or form temporary then I can cope but in might not be. I'm not freaking out but I'm preparing for a bit of a battle starting on Monday morning. I'm going to push & push for an MRI scan for a start. I'm trying to bear in mind is that if, a few months down the line, my hands are permanently damaged it'll be no consolation to look back & think how polite & patient I've been!
Just one more thing - x-rays really aren't great are they? Personally I'd have one if that's the best I can get but then they all just argue over whether or not there's anything to see.
Keep fighting John!
Luce x
hi lucy
sory to here about your hand they will probably give you wax treatment
.
which reminds me of a story when i was going with me arm and tyhis is a good one
i had a wagon nock me of the bike i shoved of with me arm so his whell did not run over me head whent over me forarm well that swelled all col;ours under rainbow. i was 18
down to hospital wasnt even broke must bave strong bones whent for xray on it could not bend me wrist back with the wax treatment after 4 weeks
well me aunt said why dont you go see him who does bolton football players and i did he said had this wrist and arm xrayed i said yes nothing wron they say
he says you wrist is out of socket with that bone their and thats out their i said can you fix it
he said yes but all the stuff has grown round it
he then put some smothing electrical thing on it and grasped me forarm and linked up hand
then he said that the no 47 bus to bolton i looked out the window and wam he wrenched me arm to wrist socket
never had sweat come out of me forhead so fast
he felt round it and said looks ok now then
I WANT THE TO BATH THAT WITH BORATIC CRISTALS LAD FOR 3 TIMES A DAY SHOULD BE OK WHEN SWELLING GOES DOWN
i said how much do i owe you 10 bob he said
and it was as right as rain in 4 weeks bend back and everything.
and that arm is the only thing this ra hasd not had a go at belive it or not its immune to anything now LOL
Ok, I'll go get knocked down by a truck ..... seriously though, you'd think the arm would be the first thing the RA went for - glad something seems immune from it!
i kid you not that thing is immune exept the fingers
and that guy was about 80 years old who put that right no wonder bolton football players whent to him
they didnt play any better but he fixed them lol
I agree that over politeness isn't a good approach to have with our health Luce. Also, unlike knees and hips - finger joints can't easily be replaced. I do hate the way my GP says stuff about this 2 year window but now I'm wanting a drug holiday he tells me to remember that joint destruction can happen very fast sometimes and is irreversible. Talk about a convenient truth?! I haven't had my hands or wrists x-rayed since May '11 and they have definitely changed shape since then but the GP reverts to 2 year crap if I mention it. I would push hard for MRIs for the sake of those hands Luce - especially if you know your RA is a fast mover as you do. TTx
Thank you Tilda. I'm in the process of collecting my thoughts ready for battle - I know what I think & feel but can't always articulate it all on cue - so your understanding stiffens my resolve. x
Hello mate, well I wouldbe spitting feathers ( or bunny fluff)! Like you too John. U knew there was something very wrong, you knew your pain and I am so glad you got the arthroscopy done. That's a lot of erosion isn't it, don't know ...you must have a high pain threshold. So what's next, r they gonna do a knee replacement? Think you need something quickly and really I would want my other knee and joints checking too before they maybe go the same way, but that's me! So I am glad in a way you know, but sad you are having such a bad time. Try to keep that wicked sense of humour you have cos we need your funny blogs and sayings, I rely on you making me laugh, and hope you will be up to that soon xxxxxhugs
yep allanah
i knew their was somthing wrong drasticly last year when it was taking me 5 attempts to get of the bed and all that sweating it was frightening beeing such a good swimmer and the like
but for the past few weeks sylvi has kept me on the streight and narrow
since they whent into the knee just over 2 weeks ago its healed quite well with me bloody mindness doing the exersises again.
the realmtrouble since the opp and me getting that bended back is bloody feet have gone ten times worse for walking on go cold well semi cold yesterday and some blueness on me toes and big toe on other side and its like walking now on pressure points on me feet
if i could just get me feet right i might be able to power on more but hey at night like this thing has a clock they warm up and boil with no swelling its like all your ligament are working incorrectly.
before op i was doing better. at one half mile walking and no pain in knee what soever now its like things are all flaring up
after op being a bit grogy he said ive cleaned it up and the ball was all pitted and acl ripped for a long time and i thought hey can pull this back again then on phisio appointment was told that they would discuss my options just gutted i was didnt think it was that bad
and i knew me main threshold was quite high but last night it was like walking on hot coals
what the hell could do so much damage i dont know like a pretty strong acid of some description.
So what are the follow up plans, did they say they would see you again, or keep going with physio or what? I hope they haven't just left you in the lurch. I know what you mean about the feet, mine burn a lot and that makes it a real awful time in the morning.
Have they not thought to get you to a special muscl/ joint type clinic, the one I go to is Musculoskeletal clinic, sometimes these are in the rheumatology department.
I really hope you get this blooming stuff sorted soon, it's not like you to be complaining of this amount of pain and soreness. Have u got GOOD painkillers, I mean ones that help?
Maybe it does go back to your biking times but you are just feeling the trouble now or if it is strong inflammation then you need anti inflammatories. But you need to know what the plan is now, don't you.
Hi john it just go to show you have to keep on at your GP and rheaumy sometimes we do know what's best !!!!! its not them who's in pain. Yes very scary what this horrid disease can do.. I can only say make quite sure that you leave rheaumy in no doubt what are they going to do for you ? best wishes xx
hi miss
i havent got a rumi they said nothing wrong even with the swellings and lumps i had
and doctors well you got a good pulse in your feet.
so realy im still on my own with this thing flaring up all the time no matter what i try
The GP has to be your ticket back to rheumatology John and please don't take any nonsense from them this time. Tell them what you've learned about spondy and say how you've done your research and know about spondy and about Reynaulds and you know a year is too short a time for a non inflammatory condition to have done this damage to your knee. Tilda x
I THINK IT IS TILDA
ive learned a lot off people on here its been a mine field putting things together
the only thing that conserns me is if its a new knee can i pull that back with other things going on because its been left to long AS OTHER IS PLAYING UP A BIT BECAUSE OF LOAD PLACED ON IT
and that spondys and inflamitory things well i makes one wonder is RA OA INFLAMATION that thing bettween them which is the worst one seems to have a verry fast effective way of firing to other things and disrupting that which leads to more inflamation and the ra can move about.
one interesting thing on embarassing bodys last week was a woman with verry bad athleetes foot verry bad
in the end they thought it was thirod problems when all came to all it was her immune system attacking her
i know you suffer verry badly with your problems to with the inflamation.
BUT I MUST SAY IN HINDSITE I WHISH I HAD LEFT THE KNEE OP OUT OF IT COS I COULD GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR ON ME SIDE DO ME EXERSISES AND GET UP WALK 1 1/2 MILES
THEN AFTER OP I THOUGHT WHEN HE TOLD ME ACL TEAR AND MOON FACED BALL ON JOINT BUT I HAVE FETTLED IT AND CLEANED IT UP A BIT 6 WEEKS AND I WILL BE WALKING BETTER
TO HAVE THE PHISIO TELL ME THAT WELL i knew exactly what the implications where
i should have demanded another xray before opp cos you can clearly see a grade 3
i only have to look at someone walking and i could see problem
but then your just a number on the nhs list
i even had tilda people last year telling me its in your mind in your mind
well since i have told them they dont say much now LOL
IM GOING TO HAVE TO BADGER THE GP I THINK AND GO TO BURY SEE THAT PRIVATE GUY ON NHS HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO TOLD ME WHERE ME PAINS WHERE AND HE JUST LOOKED AT ME HANDS
Regards john
To cheer you John - you maybe know the joke about the 3 engineers debating which type of engineer God must be? If not here goes:
Three engineers, one electrical, one mechanical and one civil. The electrical one says "God is defo and engineer - we all know that - but which kind? I say electrical because of brain and circuits - that's got to be most important don't you think?"
Mechanical one disagrees and says "no you're wrong. God is a mechanical engineer - stands to reason - we couldn't move without joints and muscles and then where would we be?"
They both look at civil person. She (I want some gender equality here you know!) says "God is most definitely and unequivocally a civil engineer!" They both poor scorn and say how do you figure that out. "Simple. Only a civil engineer would attempt to take a terribly complext sewage system right through a very built up area and get away with it!"
This is, incidentally, the only joke I've ever managed to remember! Xxxx
NOW THAT TILDA IS BLOODY GOOD I DIODNT THINK YOU HAD ANY HUMUR
i must copy and past this in word cos ive worked in nuclear with this lot
that is realy funny copying it now
dont forget to go on sylvis blog this morning and donate a good body part we are trying to see if we can make a good body out of the lot of us for a bit of fun
Oh watch it John or you'll get a cyber slap - I've been told by friends that I could do stand up!! X
point taken
Hi John...
I sympathise completely, I hope there is something they can do for you now that you know what stage its at and how quickly it went to that level. It sounds like getting a diagnosis has been frustrating for you.
Haha I luved the views of the rabbit's arthritis but thankfully the system of grading for us humans is a bit more specific. For anyone not knowing how they do it, here are the two most common ways to grade arthritis of the knee:
1. Xrays (Hellgren and Lawrence Grading System)
2. At Arthroscopy (Outerbridge Classification System)
Hellgren and Lawrence -
Grade I : Unlikely narrowing of the joint space, possible osteophytes
Grade II: Identified small osteophytes, possible narrowing of the joint
Grade III: Multiple, moderately sized osteophytes, definite joint space narrowing, some sclerotic areas, possible deformation of bone ends
Grade IV: Multiple large osteophytes, severe joint space narrowing, marked sclerosis and definite bony end deformity.
Outerbridge -
Grade 0 = Normal
Grade I: Softening and swelling of the articular cartilage
Grade II: Partial thickness fissures
Grade III: Full thickness fissures
Grade IV: Bone exposed (typically described as "bone on bone")
I dont know but I suspect your doc also shaved and tidied up your knee and would have taken out any floating pieces etc at the arthroscopy. I have had three such ops on one knee and one on the other (mine are both grade 4 on the two systems). On the bright side, after each op I seemed to get a bit of relief afterwards, I sure hope that happens for you too.
Good luck and let us know what your next step is.
MY PROBLEM HAS BEEN SINCE KNEE OP FOOT KEPS GOING COLD AND ANKLE HURTS A BIT AND IM 14 DAYS OUT OF OPERATION WITH SWELLING DOWN AND IT WILL GET ME UP STAIRS BUT IM NOT WALKING RIGHT FEELS LIKE IM SHORT ON ONE LEG ANY IDEAS WOULD BE APPRITIATED
MY PROBLEM HAS BEEN SINCE KNEE OP FOOT KEPS GOING COLD AND ANKLE HURTS A BIT AND IM 14 DAYS OUT OF OPERATION WITH SWELLING DOWN AND IT WILL GET ME UP STAIRS BUT IM NOT WALKING RIGHT FEELS LIKE IM SHORT ON ONE LEG ANY IDEAS WOULD BE APPRITIATED
MY PROBLEM HAS BEEN SINCE KNEE OP FOOT KEPS GOING COLD AND ANKLE HURTS A BIT AND IM 14 DAYS OUT OF OPERATION WITH SWELLING DOWN AND IT WILL GET ME UP STAIRS BUT IM NOT WALKING RIGHT FEELS LIKE IM SHORT ON ONE LEG ANY IDEAS WOULD BE APPRITIATED
Sorry to hear that, but give it time, it takes me about 3-5 weeks before I am right afterwards. Maybe your foot is cold from not putting as much pressure on the leg as you would if you were walking normally. Probably because they are such small incisions, we think it shouldn't be long before we are up and about but be gentle with it because it depends on how extensively they have scraped and prodded as to how long before it feels totally normal again.
Having said that, everyone is different and if you feel there is something wrong then don't hesitate to contact the surgeon - don't ignore your instincts, they have saved me quite a few times in the past.
thanks net buddy
think i will have to wait a bit it keeps bending better but not quite stable but the acl is not in good condition its probably the small insisions like you say think it will not be long but they dont say six weeks for nothing
did you start to throw weight acros to the other leg when you had yours done
Yes I used it to lessen the my weight off the operated one and of course that makes it sore then. I think on one occassion the opposite ankle even swelled up so much that I had no shoes to wear however I'm used to several sore things at once lol.
thanks net buddy
can i ask also did you get sore feet due to circulation well it seems like that or atheritus in their to
knee bending a bit more this morning but the ankle on the operated leg wow its like its in the wrong posuition a bit
regards john
Sorry John, Ive not been on...
Sorry to see your knee continues to bother you.
No I dont think my circulation was ever affected, there was just fluid and an aching ankle from resting on it when I tried to take the burden off the operated one.
If you are still having problems it might pay to ring or go back to the surgeon.
hi yes mine is on the operated one that hurts the ankle so much
but its getting me upstairs ok
just hate the sort of watery knee and the cold feet funy but when i get in the supermarket like yesterday they go realy warm like hell then stayed that way all yesterday weird thing thing this
so realy you where putting more weight on the none operated one that was giving you the ankle pain mine is the opposite but i do get a bit on the better one until i correct myself
Baricitinib - 3 weeks in
Week 3 methotrexate... shortness of breath. 
3 weeks into my Methotrexate 
Broke my ankle in 3 places 
