Research resource: An interesting point noticed when... - NRAS

NRAS
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Research resource

An interesting point noticed when reading about developing Rheumatology practice in Vietnam, and papers on % of population suffering from RD:

China has fewer than UK and other Western countries’ populations while Vietnam has high prevalence of RD (and combines modern medicine approaches with ancient ones).

Q: Why does it occur more in tropical Vietnam? Is their soil depleted of boron? Is it bacterial ie due to mycoplasma/microbiome issues?

Link to papers:

academic.oup.com/rheumatolo...

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Thank you Charisma,

Interesting data. I have also tried to get a gloabal picture of the prevalence of RA and thought about how diet, culture and so on are different where there is more RA. Interesting that UK, Finland, Sweden have the highest numbers in Europe.🤔 Any thought on this?

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On my way out for retesting of white blood cell counts.. but may be to do with prevalence of agricultural methods ie use of synthetic fertilisers and/or crop dessication methods. Maybe also monocultures.

These affect the whole food chain derived from wheat and oats. Just a thought!

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In Finland through the years bread has been the main source of nutrients.Its changing though.There seems to be a lot of gluten in rye bread that is very central in Finnish diet. Finland is also leading countries in diabetes ( also AI). I do lean against effect of gluten. An other thing that may play a role is the low amount of sunlight hours in a year. The reparing time of bad effects of darkness is not sufficient. Many stress factors inliving up north. 🤔

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I always wonder whether it is the actual prevalence of the disease or a better ability to diagnose it? It seems that sadly many people in U.K. (And other countries) suffer undiagnosed as they are fobbed off by their GPs so never get to see a rheumatologist. Perhaps Nordic GPs are more astute?

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I do not think this argument applies any longer. New research on AI diseases are popping up all the time. Just recently on BBC about RA incidence going up in a steep curb and the predicted incidence in the future was quite alarming. The same situation in the US.

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I agree it seems that in general AI diseases are increasing, but that's another question....

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I know you are not convinced that food has anything to do with RA but I find it quite interesting to compare what kind of foods are eaten in the areas where RA incidence is high. And compare these findings with the new research findings on what kind of nutrition maximizes the energy produced of the cells in our bodies and what are the foods that in fact stand in the way of optimal life energy. Many are already identified like PUFAs ( polyunsaturated fats), refined sugar, processed foods, grains and so on. There are ofcourse numerous other variables.

Did you know that life expectancy has gone down for the first time in US? " We are what we eat" like someone wise said a very long time ago.

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You are right, I don't believe that food alone can cure RA for everyone. However I do believe that lifestyle changes can make a huge difference to individual experiences of RA and their ability to tolerate drugs. For a lucky few it can tip a less active RA into quiescence. For me it meant I am actually healthier now with a bucket load of drugs than I was pre-RA.

Eating a restricted diet if you remain overweight and do no exercise seems neelessly miserable to me. By contrast, testing out whether there are some foods that are triggers for you, alongside living healthily seems eminently sensible. However coming to terms with having a chronic disease is hard and I get quite angry when people are made to feel guilty for their lifestyle choices, and treatment choices. There is no universal answer to RA.

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I do so agree. But the fact remains that there are destructive ways we can treat our body with foods, as there are additives and toxins around us that decreases the bodys ability to cope, as there are lifestyle factors that increase our both external and internal stress and increases the load on our bodies. We can in fact define these factors in our lives and also the meaning they have in our disease. We can do this on different levels, the way it suits us. Everyone has her/his own journey.

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Unfortunately our bodies were not designed to eat the modern definition of a restrictive diet.

From an evolutionary perspective the wide range of meats, fruits and vegetables that we now have access to should be considered a privileged, diverse and wide ranging diet. A real luxury.

Processed foods and manufacturing has changed people’s views of what a restrictive diet is. From an evolutionary perspective cutting out dairy, gluten and refined sugars is not in any way restrictive. It is completely normal.

Eating Pringles, Biscuits and Chocolate is abnormal from an evolutionary perspective but now we consider a normal diet restrictive.

We have moved very far away from the lives we were supposed to live and our bodies cannot evolve fast enough to cope with the new challenges. We have paid the price in the form of modern disease. We will fix the problem in time, but I fear things will have to get much worse before they get better.

I believe that Gluten will go the same way as the Tobacco industry in the next 20 - 30 years. When life expectancy in the West drops back into the 50s and 60s, these harmful foods will be demonised and outlawed just like Tobacco was.

The unfortunate thing is that a lot of people are going to have to die and suffer needlessly before we get to this point.

The scary part about the way we are heading is that our Microbiology is a finite resource. The health of our Gut Microbiome declines with every generation because we inherit our Microbiome from our mothers.

This is why I believe these diseases are rapidly increasing in prevalence.

It has nothing to do with genetics. It has everything to do with inheriting poor health from our parents and with every generation the health profile we pass onto our children gets worse.

We know that the health profile of a child starts to develop 3 months before conception. We are currently making so many mistakes that we are now starting to pay for in a big way.

I think one thing that could save us will be Microbiome transplants or the ability to grow highly targeted strains of Bacteria that we can use to repopulate unbalanced Microbiomes and turn them into healthy ones.

Pharmaceutical companies currently appear to be in an arms race to develop this technology because they’re buying up many smaller Pharmaceutical companies that specialise in Microbiology.

I just hope that Pharmaceutical companies do not discover a cure to modern disease and bury it like they have done many times in the past.

A part of me feels like they can’t do it this time though because our survival as a species depends on this breakthrough in medicine. If we don’t work out how to repopulate unbalanced Microbiome’s, the Human species may not be around in another 3 to 4 lifetimes.

Scary stuff, but it’s a very real problem we are facing at the moment.

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A restrictive diet, whether modern or not, is defined as one that limits one to a small selection of produce from only one or two major food groups.

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Allsopp, fermented foods (yoghurt containing live bacteria, kefir, veggies like sauerkraut done properly minus salt and vinegar), are said to rebalance the gut microbiome.

These are ancient and valid methods.

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Not so straight forward anymore. Used to be a way to conserve foods but science has also questioned the benefits of fermenting. Here is a thread that made me also doubt.

raypeatforum.com/community/...

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Hmm, that is just people expressing opinions with nothing solid cited for their feelings.

Balance is key. Fermented foods are a valuable resource, not the whole story of staying healthy or of regaining health.

I use whole milk (still pasteurised) for kefir from time to time.

This is, as stated already, one part of what I believe to be scientifically proven ways to maintain health and restore health.

Valid, in my opinion and experience!

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Good input😊👍🏻

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I make my fermented veggies to an adapted recipe, using about 80% cabbage ( hard white and savoy), the balance being root veggies of your choice, plus an apple and a sweet pepper. Also herbs to taste. The juice is from whole bunch/es of celery and a starter containing 20+ live bacteria. Much better than pickled!

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Here is some clear reading on the adverse effects of fermented foods. Explained more thoroughly. Not easy to know where to look😰

rawfoodexplained.com/fermen...

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That’s why using vinegar and salt is not good.

I never do it that way: freshly squeezed celery juice is the base I use, and add a starter. :-)

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This also made me think again.

rawfoodexplained.com/fermen...

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Again, based on salt etc additives.

The milk that is not tolerated is usually A1 type, not the same as A2.

Latter is from ancient breeds of dairy cows eg Jersey cows whose milk contains different form of lactose.

In a hurry, going out.

Hope that helps!

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Errm....perhaps the millions of tonnes of agent orange that the US dumped on Vietnam during the Vietnam War may have some part to play?

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Indeed! Toxins of so many kinds are affecting us, not just honeybee colonies and the whole food chain.

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.

Charisma7aj, Simba1992, helixhelix, Allsopp, weaving into 'some type of context' the aforementioned topics discussed above:

.

It's a process to change the gut microbiome.

And, depending on how bad (how severe) our microbiome (& resulting disease) is, affects how long ⏳ it takes for the microbiome to repopulate with healthy/ 'good' gut bacteria & how long ⏳ it takes for the gut to heal (whether we subscribe to leaky gut theory or not).

It's a lengthy, & at times slow 🐌 , incremental 📶 process that takes months/ years 🗓 🗓 🗓 — again, depending upon how damaged our gut (thereby body) is.

.

We don't necessarily need to purchase pricy💰 probiotic supplements 💊 . There are ways to ingest (less costly) pre- & probiotic foods along the way. 👍

It all takes time ⏳ , hardwork/ persistence 😣 ⚒ , discipline 😌 , etc..

(Boring 🙄, unglamorous 🚫 💎 💍 , & at times tedious 😲😲😲 , dogged 🐕 , unrelenting persistence ⚒ .)

.

Movement/ exercise, lifestyle changes also help us manage pain, mobility etc. 👍

It's all intertwined 🔀 , intermingled 🔄 . It's a multi-pronged, multi-disciplinary approach all done simultaneously ♻️ to manage/ reduce/ slow down/ halt/ reverse overall disease progression. 👍

.

Its intent is to reduce/ minimise inflammation ⬇️ 🔥 , thereby allowing the gut (thereby joints/ body) to heal as much as it possibly can. 🙏

By minimising ⬇️ / eliminating 🚫 known inflammatory 🔥 foods (during the re-introduction phases of the process), allows pain to subside & the gut/ body to heal. 👍

All these dietary/ lifestyle choices are done in conjunction with meds 💉 💊 & hand in hand 🤝 your rheumatologist's 👩‍⚕️ / medic's 👨‍⚕️ monitoring. 🔎

Blah blah blah . . . 💬 💬 💬

.

It takes time ⏳ , patience 😌 to implement a process.

It takes willingness 😊 & persistence 😣 to work through (troubleshoot 🏹 🎯 ) hiccups along the way.

It is doable. 👍

.

Kindly, refrain from feeling blame. 😧

Please be assured, anyone attempting a process — it's not a "blame game". 🙏

It's "a process", that can be extremely difficult at times, but can be worked through. 👍

As one improves — over time ⏳ (whether incrementally or in 'leaps & bounds') — it's well worth the effort (hardwork/ persistence 😣 ⚒ ) . 👍👍

.

Aside:

Anyone trying to "make you feel guilty" 😧 ('blaming') sounds unkind 😠 / foolish 🃏 ; thereby, wouldn't it (they) be easy to ignore 😑 / bypass such foolishness, such unkindness? 🤔

(Why pay them ('blamers') any mind? 🤔 )

Allowing someone ('giving over' one's power/ self-esteem(?)) to such 'blamers' also seems equally foolish? (Or, at least unkind to oneself?) 🤔

Why allow other people's need to 'find blame'/ 'find fault' or affix some kind of 'guilt-trip' affect one's self-perception or one's actions? 😳 🙃 🤔

Also, on further reflection how does one allow another person to "MAKE us feel" one way or another way? 😯 🤔

Don't we have our own inner strength 💪 , inner thoughtfulness 😌 , inner emotional self-control 😐 — within ourselves — to not fall prey to whims, manipulations, thoughtless accusations of others who've no clue, no understanding of our own individual circumstances, experiences, efforts, etc.? 🤔

Isn't it easy to ignore/ 'brush off' ignorant/ foolish/ un-informed statements intended to make one feel a certain way? 🤔

Like 'water off a ducks back' 🦆 💦, why wouldn't such nonsense 'roll off'? 🤔

Why 'take it to heart' 💓 or allow it a moment's thought 🤔 ?

Why not be proud, joyful & revel in what one has accomplished? 🤗

Why not delight in accomplishments achieved? 😃

Why feel any 'guilt' — 'self imposed' or otherwise? 🤔

[Blathering on about this point, cuz have seen it ('guilt'/ 'blame' topic) raised quite a few times. 🤔 ]

In short, if the shoe 👠 👞 doesn't fit, why (perpetually force oneself to) wear it? 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♀️

.

.

Back on topic:

Our food choices broaden (re-introduction phases) depending upon our bodily reactions to each newly introduced food. (There's no 'deprivation', no malnourishment 💀 , no lack of nutrients.) 👍

As our body ceases to react to newly introduced foods, our food choices safely broaden over time. 😋

Our ability to move/ exercise increases. 📈

Our QoL (Quality of Life) improves. 📈

And, yes, for some of us, even our meds decrease or are eliminated all together. 📉

.

The effects are cumulative 📶 over time ⏳ — months/ years 🗓 🗓 🗓 — as the gut, joints, body gradually improve/ heal. 👍

Call it whatever you like: 'improvement', 'healing', 'remission, 'reversal', 'increased mobility/ decreased pain', a 'non-cure' that just makes us 'feel better', 'improved QoL', or whatever terminology you like to use. 🙏 ☺️

.

[I'm merely a layman (not a medical 👩‍⚕️ or science 👨‍🔬 person) living this 'process'. Please pardon if I've imprecisely spoken the 'technical/ science' bits. I can only assure you that those of us living a process, it does work. 🙏 😌 ]

.

🙏 🍀 🌺 🌞

.

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Thanks for taking time to input on various subjects.

Most probably realise that lifestyle changes need persistent discipline and won’t achieve instant results.

However, I have found great benefit from cutting out gluten from wheat (not spelt) and changing from vegetable oils to good ones.

I certainly don’t feel any implied criticism or blame from this string of comments.

We are all sharing and learning all the time here.

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Agreed & understood, your various noted points, Charisma7aj. 🙏 😌 👍

[Sadly, theme of 'implied guilt/ blame' has arisen (over the time I've participated on forum) & thought it may be useful to address again. 😌 Terribly unfortunate anyone should feel that way. 😔 Especially when we're all trying our hardest to regain & maintain optimum health given our individual situations/ circumstances. 😌 ]

Yes, indeed, we're all learning/ sharing together in 'real-time'. 👍👍

Steps forwards 👣 ➡️ ➡️ ,

. . . steps backwards ⬅️ ⬅️ 👣 ,

. . . . . . warts, lumps, bruises, 'n all! 😂 🤦‍♂️ 🙃 🤦‍♀️

🙏 🍀 🌺 🌞

.

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