Does the NHS know what it's talking about? - Weight Loss NHS

Weight Loss NHS
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Does the NHS know what it's talking about?

Subtle_badger
Subtle_badger17kg

I typed this as a reply to Camella, but it was in a discussion where a member was asking for support, so it didn't belong there.

Original discussion: healthunlocked.com/nhsweigh...

"Secondly, the nhs have qualified health advisors providing the nation with sound information. They have researchers and other professionals such as doctors, dieticians and nutritionists and not u tubers stating their opinion."

My answer:

I think your trust in the NHS on the subject of nutrition is misplaced. Almost everyone in the UK is aware of what the NHS tells us is healthy eating, yet 2/3 of are are overweight, millions have type II diabetes (a disease that was very rare even in the 1980s), and more than 1/3 of us have pre-diabetes. There are only two possible reasons: either the diet is hard to follow or the diet doesn't work.

For me, it sort of worked for the first 30 years I followed it, but it quietly damaged my metabolism so over the last ten years I had become obese, and my blood sugar was climbing. Focusing on following the EatWell Guide, watching fats, sugars and salts did nothing. When I basically ignored all the advice and stopped snacking and filling my plate with pasta and rice, and then my weight dropped so now I am inside the healthy BMI range for the first time in my adult life.

The NHS and PHE look at the obesity and diabetes epidemics, and wring their hands, but then keep doubling down on the same dietary recommendation that they have been making since just before the rates of both started skyrocketing.

Your idea of female solidarity is to reassure someone that what they are doing is healthy, even if you know that doing it made you sick. I think real sisterhood is telling someone the truth, and trusting they are strong enough to accept it.

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TheAwfulToad
TheAwfulToadAmbassador

One of the weird things about Modern Britain is that telling the truth is likely to get you publicly pilloried. People have never really liked hearing the truth, but there's definitely a growing philosophical position that everybody's version of the truth is equally valid (I suspect this grew out of terrible experiments in education back in the 1970s). Coupled with that has been a steady erosion of the underpinnings of science, particularly the Popperian contributions to the art.

The word "judgemental" also crops up a lot these days. If you make any sort of judgement, that makes you judgemental. The optimum position (apparently) is to make no judgement, ever, about anything. This conveniently avoids the need to have to learn any facts about anything, because you never need to call upon any facts in order to make judgements.

As for your experience, I'm always amazed by the posts that state something along the lines of "I've been eating healthily for years but I'm fat and ill", the poster apparently unaware of the logical contradiction in there. I can't criticize too much because 20 years ago, that would have been me (like you, I did low-fat for years ... and got slowly fatter). Still, when someone points out the contradiction, you'd think the lightbulb would go on. Sometimes it does, but often it doesn't.

There's an opportunity right now for PM to sort this out (apologies for bringing politics into an apolitical forum). But will he take it???? bbc.co.uk/news/health-53514170

No. Because that's not what he is being told.

I added this to the Diet Myth post a couple of days ago...

How is this myth still be promulgated by the government, public health organisations, and even the Guardian??

"It’s energy in, energy out

theguardian.com/society/202...

TheAwfulToad
TheAwfulToadAmbassador in reply to Trimmerteacher

Crikey. Appealing to Boris Johnson to sort out obesity is a bit like appealing to Jair Bolsonaro to sort out global deforestation. He wouldn't know where to start, which means he's going to listen to a whole load of BS from well-placed experts.

To be fair, although the article mentions "calories in/calories out", the rest of the argument is not unreasonable.

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to TheAwfulToad

Dr David Unwin has been into the Dept of Health quite a bit recently which is encouraging. What is less encouraging is that the ‘obesity tsar’ says that obesity is not about what we eat. 😱

So today’s headline is GP’s are to prescribe cycling as a new obesity strategy!

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer in reply to Trimmerteacher

I wish they'd ask me instead of assuming I'm slim because I cycle, then I could tell them "lower your insulin levels".

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to Trimmerteacher

I’m all for cycling & when I did a job in London in 2019 I was so glad to use the dedicated cycle lanes. I hope other towns and cities follow suit. If I win the euro millions I’d spend it all on creating a canal path cycle track near us for safe cycling for families. BUT I was still at my fattest ever when I commuted 12 miles a day by bike.

Great! cycling! and look at the sort of body you build with cycling

healthunlocked.com/nhsweigh...

(Yup, that's what I looked like when the consultant would not believe I was following the eatwell guide and exercising)

If you have a mass participation ride, like RideLondon, watch the bodies of the riders. There will be plenty of racing snakes, but also plenty of obese individuals and many many with visceral obesity - aka beer belly, and they are keeping up with the other riders, which shows they exercise regularly. You can't cycle 100miles in 8 hours without plenty of training.

Someone dies of natural causes on RL every year, and plenty of others are taken in an ambulance.; there is no evidence these devoted athletes are any healthier than other apparently healthy members of our society.

elliebath
elliebathMaintainer in reply to TheAwfulToad

He says he's lost 1.5 stone so far, so better late than never and presumably he has a bit of a clue how to do it 😉

elliebath
elliebathMaintainer in reply to Trimmerteacher

BJ says he's lost about 1.5 stone so far by "eating less and exercise". Hmmm I wonder if he would share his eating regime ??😆

Subtle_badger
Subtle_badger17kg in reply to elliebath

Calorie reduction will work for anyone in the short term, and for some people in the long term.

I'd be shocked if he hadn't lost weight, especially as he presumably lost some in ICU.

Oh, and I saw boris "in the wild" on his bike cycling away from parliament back before he was mayor. Cycling didn't seem to be keeping him slim back then.

The timing of this discussion is good as the impact of obesity on Covid-19 infections appears to be motivating a government focus on healthy eating. bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53522492 bbc.co.uk/news/health-53532228

What I do hope doesn't happen is that a crackdown on obesity falls into the old habits of advocating calorie counting, low fat foods, eating fruit and demonising fat. Advice that would appear to have failed generations of dieters.

CautiousK
CautiousK5lbs in reply to SofaJockey

Hi SofaJockey,

I was just familiarising myself with this site and saw your comment about calorie counting and eating fruit etc.

I started calorie counting a couple of days ago as my BMI tells me quite clearly that I am obese. I thought that this sounded like good advice for me as I have made the changes to my meals, ie wholegrain, 5 a day, brown rice, bran flakes.

Please would you give me what consider the best approach is for sustainable weight loss?

My downfall is bad snacking habits and I do know that it is a major problem that I have to address .

Thanks

Kim

SofaJockey
SofaJockey48kg in reply to CautiousK

From my perspective, I think calorie counting isn't ideal because it doesn't focus on changing what you eat rather than how much of it.

I've cut out unnecessary foods entirely, such as bread, rice, pasta and potato. Fruit contains natural sugars so I think it should be eaten in minimal quantities. 5 a day vegetables? Absolutely. 5 a day fruit? Really bad idea.

I think the sustainable approach to weight loss is to find healthy unprocessed foods (meat, fish, vegetables, and healthy full-fat items) that make you feel full-up and are a nutritional approach that can be continued after reaching a healthy weight.

So many people calorie count then yo-yo back to and beyond the weight they started.

I was certainly a crisp addict when I was approaching morbid obesity, but thankfully after losing 7 stones-ish, that snack addiction has largely gone. I still have a couple of healthy snacks in a day such as yoghurt with some double cream, or some walnuts, or olives or a couple of cheese crackers.

But don't take my word for it, I'm no nutritionist.

This classic video 'The Skinny on Obesity' is well worth catching the first 10 minutes of (or more), to cover the nutritional principles.

youtube.com/watch?v=h0zD1gj...

CautiousK
CautiousK5lbs in reply to SofaJockey

Thank you so much SofaJockey. You say you arent an expert but it sounds like you have made a big difference to your life achieving such a big weight loss.

I hope to take on as much official advice and advice from peoples own experiences to build up my own healthier lifestyle .

I think eating for me has become a habit rather than because I am hungry.

I have a lot of work to do.

Thanks again for your reply.

Kim

SofaJockey
SofaJockey48kg in reply to CautiousK

I think you are wise to read around the subject. My own preferred method has refined over 50 weeks, I'm sure yours will over time. 😄

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer in reply to SofaJockey

Well, you can hope SofaJockey, but I can tell you that our Local Authority are almost duty-bound to point people in the direction of the PHE information (believing it to be based on the weight of evidence) because they are responsible for the majority of our funding.

And this underpins the cyclical behaviour of organisations. They believe that PHE guidance must be reliable, and that they are doing the best for individuals by recommending it.

People who dissent are seen as being influenced by 'fads'

Hi Subtle Badger,

I just wanted to let you know that I am sorry if any friction was caused on my account between you and Camella.

I have about 4 stone to lose and know this wont be easy. I do believe that I can see both sides of the argument,believe me , going from the amount of comfort food I eat to nothing between meals is a real task but I am starting off without inbetweens and seeing how I cope. If I feel I will fail , maybe I could add 3 a week or something.

I felt that I needed you to know that I am trying to listen to you both.

Thanks

Kim

BridgeGirl
BridgeGirlAdministrator in reply to CautiousK

Don't worry at all. It was me that Camella took exception to.

I hope you can take on board all the information you'll see around here and come up with a plan that will work for you, for good :)

The important thing is to eat well. If you're feeling hungry, remember that and plan for bigger meals the next day. Just eat real food, home cooked; eat when you're hungry and stop when you're full. This is a straightforward plan phcuk.org/wp-content/upload... If you use it when you're planning your shopping and meals, you won't go far wrong :)

CautiousK
CautiousK5lbs in reply to BridgeGirl

Thank you BridgeGirl, I really do appreciate your advice.

Kim

BridgeGirl
BridgeGirlAdministrator in reply to CautiousK

You're welcome :)

Subtle_badger
Subtle_badger17kg in reply to CautiousK

What a lovely apology. As BridgeGirl says, it wasn't me.

I just worried that if someone posted asking for support, and the responses turned into an angry squabble, that person might just decide it wasn't the place for them. I am glad to see you are made of sterner stuff.

(for the record, BG did not deserve that attack. She's a volunteer who gives a lot of time to support dieters. And telling people the truth doesn't always seem nice, but it actually is the nicest thing you can do)

I have a letter from an NHS consultant that basically calls me a liar. She told my GP that she had advised me to cut down the fat in my diet and exercise more. I had told her I ate low fat, and exercised at least an hour a day. I even got out my phone to show her strava, that had recorded about 150km of riding that week. She didn't believe any of that, because I wouldn't have been obese if it was true.

Like SofaJockey, I have taken a few turns to reach the point. I set out to lose maybe 2stone, I have lost 3. I think when I describe what I did, you will think it was hard. It wasn't. It's a new way of approaching food, and I think it is for life.

It's a mixture of low carb and intermittent fasting. It's a great change to what I was eating before, but I think I can live with it.

CautiousK
CautiousK5lbs in reply to Subtle_badger

Hi Subtle Badger,

You inspire me to get stronger.

I am at the opposite end at the moment but I really want to succeed for myself this time so wheras I am hearing success stories from strong motivated people, I know there is more than the weight issue that I have to deal with . All advice is greatly appreciated and motivation will keep me reaching forward to my goal.

Kim

TheAwfulToad
TheAwfulToadAmbassador in reply to CautiousK

You would be surprised how many of us following a proper healthy eating plan, and who lost weight by doing so, aren't "strong motivated people". In my low-fat diet days, I would occasionally eat an entire cheesecake in a sitting. I'm definitely one of those people who doesn't have a whole lot of self-control. I have some pretty embarrassing stories in my cupboard of skeletons (mostly not involving food). Thing is, I rarely even have the urge to eat cheesecake these days, and if I do, I can't even manage a full slice.

The point about healthy eating is this:

1) Eating behaviour is almost entirely autonomic. You have basically zero control over it. It's driven by hormones and dumb, reptilian bits of your brain. If you eat the wrong foods for a long period of time, these mechanisms go haywire. And a lot of people are eating the wrong foods, because TPTB keep telling us those foods are "healthy".

2) Once you start eating proper food, all those mysterious stone-age mechanisms will breathe a metaphorical sigh of relief and start working properly, and it happens almost immediately. You probably can't believe that. I didn't either, but I was prepared to give it a go. I hesitate to use the word, but it's quite miraculous.

Subtle_badger : stories like that make me think nothing is going to change from the top down. When someone shows you hard facts and you refuse to believe them, you're in religious-cult territory.

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to CautiousK

Before I ate low carb, I had to eat every 3 hours. I had to. Or I would start shaking, lose motor control, be confused, incoherent. That’s just who I was I thought and I so I needed to eat often. And not strangely I was a bit tubby.. After 7 months of eating a low carb diet I no longer need to snack. I can eat my meals a hour or two later too. If you need to snack, in the way I did, it’s not a question of willpower or habit. You need to change your physiology. It’s possible. The answer is to eat food that does not need a lot of insulin to process it, and in turn, this reduced insulin production makes our bodies much more able to hear true hunger, that relates to how much fat we have on our bodies going spare, rather than hunger because our metabolic hormones have got confused and it’s easier for our bodies just to eat more.

I am frustrated by this idea that there is consensus in the NHS about diets and the impact of insulin, on obesity and rebates type 2 diabetes. I am frustrated when people read the NhS website and assume it is a careful considered judgement, supported by ongoing cutting edge research. It isn’t. It would be nice if it was, but wishful thinking does not make it so. And there is dispute here just as there is in every scientific field., The cutting edge research is being done by a NHS drs, such as Dr David Unwin and Dr Aseem Malholtra, showing heart disease, T2 diabetes and obesity can be reversed by a low carb diet. Their findingS - as well as a bucket of research from the US - is slowly being heard but have not filtered through to the healthy eating advice.

This site and the people here have changed my life. I heard about low carb here and I not only feel better in myself than I have for twenty years, I am thin. I have wanted to be both thin and not hungry for 30 years. And I now am. BUT I will confess I needed my mind changing when I first got here. I was wholly signed up to complex carbs like quinoa and Bulgar wheat. I could not believe they were getting in the way of my weight loss. Ultimately though I realised I wanted to be thin more than I wanted to be right. So I opened my mind to something different. And here I am.

Today I am wearing shorts I never thought I would get back into. They are a sort of bright khaki, twill, knee length. I love them. But they are a bit big now. I count nothing. I measure nothing, I employ zero willpower. I need no cheering on (now). I don’t do detailed and careful food planning. I just eat food that does not contain more than a scattering of carbs. I just don’t like carby food anymore. I dare anyone who has had a weight problem, to say to me they also now have a washboard stomach from following the NHS advice and it has taken no effort or willpower.

CautiousK
CautiousK5lbs in reply to Slim_for_good

Hi,

This sounds like really good advice. I eat wholemeal /granary if I have bread. I have bran flakes, skimmed milk, poached/grilled chicken etc

If you get the time someday would you send me an idea of some low carbs and the portion sizes you use. I thought it was carbs that fill you up so daily thought they were needed.

Thanks

Kim

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to CautiousK

Oh I used to eat bran flakes by the sack. With raisins. No milk. And then I discovered they contain so much sugar I might as well have eaten haribo.

I will suggest foods, but portion sizes? forget that. Eat according to what your body tells you. If you are hungry eat some more. If you feel full. Leave what’s on your plate. Only your body knows what it needs, not some random stranger On a forum!

Breakfast - I eat seeds (pumpkin & chia), berries, (Formerly frozen as cheaper), and loads of Greek yoghurt - the highest fat the shop has. I might add some whipped double cream. At the weekend I have bacon. sausages and mushrooms - eggs are fine too but they aren’t for me

Lunch - salad with tuna/ham/ blue cheese, loads of olive oil, Olives, avocado Etc. Bacon and white cabbage fried in butter also features.

Supper - we eat beef 4-5 times a week. We fry mince with spices & Tomato paste., and eat with fried chopped leeks, cabbage, cauliflower rice. Maybe grated cheese and sour cream too. That’s what we like but there are lots of recipes out there. We eat chicken cooked in cream and pesto a bit. Or wrapped in bacon. Then if we have pudding, we eat berries again with double cream. I love cream! Oh yes and Keto meatloaf is wondrous.

Snacks - well usually instead if lunch if I am busy. Cheese. And more cheese. Salted almonds. But I needed snacks in the first couple of months of low carb.

Hope this gives you ideas.

CautiousK
CautiousK5lbs in reply to Slim_for_good

Thank you 🤗

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer

For what it's worth, I think you're quite right to question the reliance on the Eatwell Guide. That said, maybe we need to stay specific as to what the contentions are. I know it's difficult because there are different ideologies interacting.

The primary thing for me is that there is broad agreement that people with diabetes should eat the same healthy diet as the general public (as stated in NICE guidance) but then the Eatwell Guide is so glucose-centric that it just isn't appropriate. Then people begin to try to separate those with diabetes as 'different' again, because they are ill. Where do they think all these people are coming from?

The truth is that healthy eating is good for all, but in avoiding natural fat carbohydrate has been over-emphasised.

So, to be specific, what is the justification for the current RDA of carbohydrate other than it is the consensus for the avoidance of eating fat?

Of the 8 tips that are given, basing meals on carbohydrate that is higher in fibre says nothing about the glycaemic load (GL) because pulverising insoluble fibre means the Gi is often faster than pure table sugar.

The rhetoric has been about not excluding any food group, yet reducing fats and spreads to 1% is as close as you can get without actually aiming for total exclusion of a food group.

I could go on, but we aren't going to overturn 40 years of guidance on this forum tonight.

So I suppose the question is, what is the best strategy going forward?

BettyBadger
BettyBadger2020 July

Hello

I’ve been a member for just one day and was really pleased to stumble across this lively conversation. It covers the very things that I am trying to unlearn. It’s hard to put aside advice when it comes from sources you’ve spent many years trusting as an authority, for example the NHS.

Years ago, I was advised by the practice nurse that grazing is good, it raises the metabolism so I’d burn off more. Pasta and rice is fine, it’s the wicked sauce that goes with it that’s the problem. And I wasn’t to let myself feel hungry otherwise the body would grab hold of the next thing I ate and store it as fat.

I’ve embraced the healthy fat part of the low carb, healthy fat approach. Thing is - I now enjoy lots more butter on my toast. I suppose I must work a bit harder on the low carb part of it!!

Even with my haphazard approach I’m making some slow and steady progress and definitely feeling the benefit.

Thanks, and looking forward to reading more in this forum.

Subtle_badger
Subtle_badger17kg in reply to BettyBadger

That's great. Growing up I knew a lot of lean people who ate carbs. If you can do it, more power to you.

The reason humans have become the dominant species on the planet, is we are flexible.

Humans can survive on a wide range of diets. I think i have reached the point when I can't eat many carbs, but in past times, I would also be nearing the point I wasn't adding much value to the tribe.

If you are losing weight and buttering your toast, more power to you! And also my envy from 3 months ago. I am now at peace with not eating bread and butter, but I wasn't ready to say that in March.

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer in reply to Subtle_badger

Are you two related? You have the same surname....

😂

I can't believe I didn't notice that until you and TheAwfulToad pointed it out!

Sadly, the Badger and _badger clans had a falling out back in the time of the reformation. Maybe we finally come to an accord on HU.

👋 cousin BettyBadger

TheAwfulToad
TheAwfulToadAmbassador in reply to BettyBadger

The badgers in the forum seem to be multiplying.

I suspect people who are basically still healthy can wind down their carbs, and go back to a normal level of fat, without the appetite "kickback" that you can experience if you're overweight and prediabetic (normally, you'd work around that with a 2-week keto phase). Let us know how you get on!

moreless
morelessAdministrator in reply to BettyBadger

Hi and welcome, BettyBadger :)

I'm really pleased that you found something here that immediately struck a chord with you. If you keep looking around, I'm sure you'll find many more.

All of the information you need about the forum can be found in Pinned Posts healthunlocked.com/nhsweigh... and I hope you'll be joining all the Events, Challenges and Clubs that we run, especially a weigh-in and the daily diary.

If you haven't already taken it, here's a tour of the forum healthunlocked.com/?tour=true

We've found active participation to be key to successful weight loss and, of course, it's a good way to get to know people, find inspiration and share support and encouragement.

Wishing you all the best :)

sandoval22
sandoval22Visitor

I don't think that the obesity problem will be solved until Keto is mainstream which may never happen because big food and big pharma make so much money out of misinformation. Even when an MP has lost 8 stone and reversed his diabetes (Tom watson) and 60% of nurses are overweight/obese the NHS keeps its head in the sand so as not to offend its paymasters.

IndigoBlue61
IndigoBlue61Administrator in reply to sandoval22

Hello and welcome sandoval22 and thank you for your thoughts on this issue. I like to think attitudes are slowly changing, I was on an NHS led scheme 5 years ago and the dietician admitted that SOME good healthy fat was acceptable, up to 70g per day. But I realise there are still many health professionals who haven’t got this message yet.

Are you wishing to join is for support in your own weight loss journey? I’ve given you a visitor badge but please let me know if you are looking for more help 😊

Subtle_badger
Subtle_badger17kg in reply to sandoval22

Yes.

Worse, in my opinion, the health minster Matt Hancock follows a low carb plan, yet the institutes he supervisors have made no change.

BridgeGirl
BridgeGirlAdministrator in reply to sandoval22

Do you mean keto (i.e. less than 20g carbs a day) or low carb (i.e. anything up to 50 or 100g a day)

sandoval22
sandoval22Visitor in reply to BridgeGirl

Bridge girl, I think you need to see what works for you. Anything under 50 carbs will do you good if you are eating "normal" food now. I added intermittent fasting and progressed to alternate day fasting. You can make it what you want depending on what you are looking for but food is the new medicine imo.

BridgeGirl
BridgeGirlAdministrator in reply to sandoval22

I was really asking for clarification about what you meant. I see the term Keto used when often what is meant is a low carb way of eating and it can be confusing for people coming to it all new. :)

sandoval22
sandoval22Visitor in reply to BridgeGirl

Keto is low carb. Low carb is Keto. The aim is the same which is Ketosis. It's not a diet, more a lifestyle so it can be adapted to what you want. 5 days on 2 days off , 4 days on 3 days off etc depending on your goals. Bread was the hardest thing for me to give up but I found Livlife bread in Waitrose @ 3.8 carbs a slice (15 -20 carbs in normal slice of bread). The secret is to find alternatives and if you can't you can always use websites like sugarfree londoner to make your own and diet doctor for recipes etc. There is a chocolate bar in tesco called chocologic which has 15carbs; that is less carbs than in 1 slice of normal bread. It's daunting when you start but it get easier.

BridgeGirl
BridgeGirlAdministrator in reply to sandoval22

No, keto is one end of the low carb spectrum. Keto is low carb but low carb is much wider than keto.

I do follow low carb eating. I decided against substitutes for bread, rice etc., unless you count using shredded veg as the base for bolognese. I just make my meals up differently than I did before. I like diet doctor recipes but mostly I just do my own thing.

Night-Watchman
Night-WatchmanVisitor in reply to sandoval22

I disagree with your definition of low carb vs keto. I'm following a low carb lifestyle and I typically eat around 100g of carbs daily. That's not keto. Keto is extreme low carb in my mind: <20g daily. I'll never be in ketosis. In fact, it doesn't really bother me. I'm happy enough keeping my carbs much lower than before and enjoy being a newer healthier me :)

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to Night-Watchman

Agree, but i will say that the no of carbs that put you In/out of ketosis varies according to your body. I eat about 60g carbs a day and an in ketosis (I have the blood test results to prove it.) the idea is that 20g will definitely put you in ketosis but less efficient bodies like mine can get away with more.

sandoval22
sandoval22Visitor in reply to Night-Watchman

Exactly. Adapt it to what you want. A diabetic trying to reverse diabetes would need a much lower carb habit than someone who wants to lose a few pounds for the beach.

sandoval22
sandoval22Visitor

No help needed thanks. Being diabetic I prefer low carb to drugs but the NHS will still tell you diabetes is not reversible. I saw a doctor a couple of years ago who was diabetic herself and told me diabetes is not food related ! My GP refers to my diet as "strange". When I had diabetes and went Keto my diabetic nurse said she had never seen anyone reverse diabetes before. That is the NHS. If you go to a private London diabetes clinic they will tell you that you can reverse diabetes and tell you how. The NHS don't understand nutrition, it's not part of their training. Their standard phrase is "healthy balanced diet" - well it hasn't worked so far so time for a change maybe ? 50% of my diet is fat but supermarkets are full of "low fat" . Big food/pharma are running the show so self education/research is the only way imo.

Subtle_badger
Subtle_badger17kg in reply to sandoval22

Thanks for the contribution. You may want to hang around here, there are plenty of people that could use your advice.

I was perusing my blood work online 🤓, discovered my Hba1c had gone up 3 points of 3 years, googled to find out what the heck hba1c is and realised I was on the road to diabetes. I was able to nip it in the bud - I hope, I haven't had a retest because of lockdown.

Have you visited lchf-diet? healthunlocked.com/lchf-diet

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to sandoval22

Dr David Unwin is perhaps a lone NHS voice with the same views and a lot of cured patients to prove it. His YouTube videos are wonderfully inspiring.,

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to sandoval22

Well, type 1 diabetes is not food related as such. I have a lot of type 1 diabetics my family, they have to inject insulin because their body doesn't produce it.

But Type 2 diabetes can be 'cured' with low carb diets I helped a neighbour get that sorted a couple of years ago, I am happy to say. His partner could not do without giant crumpets or any other refined carbohydrates, etc and so is still piling on the weight and having injections at the surgery each week. The GP and District nurses had no idea and actually told her that crumpets were great for things to have within her diet. Talk about mis information!!!!!

You couldn't make it up

sandoval22
sandoval22Visitor in reply to BrynGlas

No you are right. T1 do not produce any insulin but I have a friend whose wife is an NHS dietician and she is T2 diabetic and prefers taking insulin to low carb. Each to their own but not much of an advert for the NHS.

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to sandoval22

I might have read that low carb an help T1, bit can’t recall any details.

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to sandoval22

Definately not good advert for the NHS. Low carb is just the same diet for type 2 and for weight loss.

Wouldn't you think that someone in NHS might have a light bulb turning on in their brain when they realise that? LoL

I could never see that happen somehow.

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to sandoval22

You are dead right sandoval. Try getting full fat yogurt and you have a hell of a job to find it. I found a lovely creamy cottage cheese as well as plain yogurt in Tesco (own brand) last year, I bought both weekly for a while and then one day it had disappeared into thin air. In their place was a 5 % fat one as well as a fat free version. I wanted to spit!

I can get 10% fat yogurt in Lidl, but that is over 15 miles from me, so I can only get it occasionally.

Yes, that's the same with Thyroid training given to GP's, they are lucky if they get a single afternoon's training on thyroid issues.

sandoval22
sandoval22Visitor in reply to BrynGlas

I make my own version. Large pot of double cream and punnet of strawberries. Whisk them up together until the cream has thickened. Lasts about 5 days in fridge and very low carb. Greek yoghurt isn't too bad at 5 carbs for a small one.

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to sandoval22

Sounds phenomenal

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to sandoval22

Sounds lovely, I could just eat that now!!!!!

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to BrynGlas

I’ve come on holiday to Cornwall and the local Tesco has very limited Greek yoghurt options, unlike the monster shop near me that has loads. So I have bought clotted cream. Heh heh.

Midori
Midori2020 July

You have a good point. Everybody is different, so there can be no one size fits all diet.

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to Midori

Our bodies all work the same way though. Even overweight horses are put on low sugar diets....

Midori
Midori2020 July in reply to Slim_for_good

That's a very simplistic way of looking at things, when you consider that although we all have the same arrangement of organs,there are multiple ways for them to go wrong, either by genetics, or by aquired problems such as allergies. There are different treatments for Kidney disease and Diabetes for instance, and a person with coeliac problems cannot tolerate the same diet as a Lactose intolerant one. As a former nurse I have experience of caring for people with specific dietary needs. Horses would not be given the same options; rather they would be declared incurable and put down. When a human breaks a leg, it is set and plastered, when a horse breaks its leg, unless the owner can afford The Supervet, it gets put down.

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to Midori

Did you mean to sound so patronising? Let’s hope not. What I meant was that excess insulin production has a similar impact on everyone, whether they are lactose intolerant, Crohn’s disease or have kidney problems. Fat horses do not need to be put down just because they are fat. They are given restricted access to high sugar grass and sugar beet and they lose weight. A horse that breaks its leg will of course be put down, but i was under the impression the topic was obesity not fractures and orthopaedics.

Midori
Midori2020 July in reply to Slim_for_good

Thank you,

No my post was not intended to seem patronising, any more that your reply is with regard to horses, more a case of not knowing the person you are posting to.

I also have a lot of experience with horses, 64 years to be exact. Yet horses are not the issue here, humans are.

Cheers, Midori

Slim_for_good
Slim_for_goodMaintainer in reply to Midori

You have the years experience on me with horses. What sort of riding? I had a dressage horse before I went back to work after I had my son. I found it so INTERESTING that horses are put on low sugar to lose weight - but they can hardly go low carb!

Midori
Midori2020 July in reply to Slim_for_good

Very true, I've been around horses for most of my life, working pupil for BHSAI until my father found out and stopped me! (he was scared of horses, odd, as both my mother and I rode). I still kept riding, just couldn't study for AI any more. I worked on, volunteered with a vet for awhile, before I went into nursing. I have ridden in Dressage, one day events, show jumping, (all at low level), and finally went to volunteer with Betty Skelton who was a leading light with the Side Saddle Association, of which she was President, and where I learned sidesaddle, which as time went by, and I became less able, became the most comfortable way for me to ride. I have also been a helper with RDA.

Can no longer ride, but I had a lovely Welsh Section D.

Cheers, Midori

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to Slim_for_good

My daughter does a lot of dressage, such a graceful thing to watch in my opinion, but I have never been interested in riding, just watching.

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to Slim_for_good

Poor souls!!

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer in reply to BrynGlas

Not really. I took a quick google, and 64% of a horse's digestive system is hind gut, so they are well equipped with all that bacteria converting the carbs to fat.

Our colon by comparison is only 7%. So, as you are aware, if we eat a high-carb diet for a long time we start producing too much insulin because we just haven't got the equipment onboard to cope with it. Ergo, we're designed to eat the fat directly.

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to StillConcerned

The 'poor souls' quip was a little tongue in cheek joke really. I have an idea of how a horse's digestive system works and realise that they follow neither low carb nor the NHS 12 week programme! LoL

Sorry, I couldn't resist!! My sense of humour can be rather an 'acquired taste' shall we say?

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer in reply to BrynGlas

LOL! You make some good points though. Lots of restrictive diets work for a short while, but what matters is how well we are decades down the line.

A number of people have argued how we are all different, Actually, diet plays a big role, and it depends what the weakest link is as to what breaks first.

Even those people that are active are still healthier with a lower proportion than societally-normal carbohydrate, adequate natural fat way of eating. The longer an activity can be performed, the more fat can be burned; it is yet another example where the carbohydrate card has been over-played.

I'm not sure of your point, but you can do plenty of long "fat burning" activities and still be obese.

Well, maybe you can't, but I can.

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to Subtle_badger

Me too!!!!!!! LoL

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer in reply to Subtle_badger

People are traditionally told to eat more carbohydrate to fuel their activity. However, only intense activities are fuelled by carbohydrate.

My point is, people decided decades ago they were going to start advising people to eat carbohydrate instead of fat for a number of reasons. One of the defences was that complex carbs provide sustained energy. Well, the Gi showed that to be a fallacy, but the Eatwell Guide is still telling people to eat over a third of the volume of their intake from carbs.

You can't outrun a bad diet, and it's quite possible to do lots of bike riding and not lose weight because as we know it's not just calories in v calories out (or the food in our supermarkets would be turning to fat). Fat regulation in the human body is governed by insulin. If people want to hang on to the energy theory, the relevance is the amount of insulin stimulated per calorie.

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March in reply to StillConcerned

Also those doing lots of exercise could be making more muscles in placeof fat - well, if they did enough high energy exercise and that will never apply to me I'm afraid - and muscle apparently weighs 'heavier' than fat. I will never be able to blame the muscle that I have built up by exercising.

I always feel better when I really have zero of the high carbs, so, rice, bread, potatoes, any flour containing items and I also try to leave out most root vegetables, except celeriac and swede on occasions. I still crave high carbs though and if there are any in the house I can't leave them alone.

Luckily I live alone, but my brother in law has been here for a week and he has to have all the things that I don't eat. So since he went home last Thursday the birds have had rice, bread, mini cheddar, bread, biscuits, chocolate etc etc it has been a nightmare for me and I have gained weight. He is totally unashamed of his role in my weight gain and thinks I am quite mad. Most of my family think the same to be honest.

Being low thyroid for well over 20 years and not well regulated for it, brings it's own problems, believe me. But got to keep trying or I will gain, gain, gain and I refuse to have to buy larger clothes, so either I try and live in my PJ'S or I keep on top of my diet!!

"However, only intense activities are fuelled by carbohydrate."

That's not quite true. If you largely eat carbs, then fat is burned in a carbohydrate flame. (Something complicate to do with the crebs cycle) If you don't eat enough carbs or exercise long enough to deplete your glycogen, you "hit the wall". I've experienced this myself, unable to climb a hill on my bike, and was cured by a very small amount of baguette.

Of course, that was in the before-times. Now I am fat adapted, climbing a hill or not is down to my muscles and my lungs. Fuel is in endless supply.

StillConcerned
StillConcernedMaintainer in reply to Subtle_badger

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.

Fat needs oxygen to burn. I can't change the laws of physics. It's quite true that when we become fat adapted we have an almost endless supply of fuel, and this has a carbohydrate sparing effect so that glycogen reserves will last longer.

That said, anaerobic work necessitates carbohydrate or the derivatives of ketosis, because that can be used in the absence of oxygen, which is where the lactic acid comes from.

Yes; hitting the wall is very real.

Barry Groves said that people used to believe there was an actual fire that took place in the lungs, which was the origin of the myth fat burns in a carbohydrate flame.

I don't know Barry Groves' work, but that makes no sense. A fire in the lungs must be a medieval idea, at least, predating human dissection and an understanding of anatomy. Carbohydrates is from the 19th century, following the understanding of molecules. There is no one who knows what carbohydrates are, who thinks there is a literal fire in the lungs.

If you aren't creating ketones, you need carbs to burn fat.

You might find this enlightening

drbillsukala.com/fat-burns-...

BrynGlas
BrynGlas2020 March

Well said Subtal_badger it needed saying. You know I think, that I had some advice that absolutely floored me on this group and I didn't think that I could continue here, because I knew that I could not almost double my alone intake, eat the NHS way and lose weight.

I did leave the group, but kept getting the daily digests and it was only reading those messages that made me return to the site again.

If the NHS way suits you, everything is hunky dory, but we all know people who it hasn't/doesn't work for (count me in there) and being told you are not doing 'it' right helps no one, that goes for GP's & dieticians too. Calories in, less than calories out, 3 meals a day plus snacks, a 'balanced' diet, thou wilt eat breakfast etc etc. Not necessarily, I have proved it insofar as I am concerned.

Nothing works for everyone, but the NHS needs to get itself up to date, the world of weightloss has moved on.

I am low thyroid and believe me, it's exactly the same for thyroid patients and the NHS. Most of us (I can only speak for low thyroid patients) have to pay for our own blood tests because the NHS has a ridiculous way of blood testing these days. Many also self medicate, for the same reasons. Thyroid hormones affect absolutely everything in our bodies,especially metabolism. I have spent over 25years low thyroid and I am appalled, but it seems there is nothing to be done.

The NHS needs modernising.

I wrote this elsewhere on the internet, but I think it belongs here, too.

When you feed geese corn, they develop fatty liver (foie gras). When you feed cattle grain, they develop intramuscular fat (marbling). When you tell the entire country to eat more simple carbs, what do you get? 2/3 overweight, and 1/3 with diabetes or pre-diabetes.

But yeah, the problem is the dietary fat.

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