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Is Dairy Really Good For You?

Dairy, if unpasteurised/unhomogenised from animals fed on grass and especially, fermented, is extremely good for you! But there are some instances when even raw dairy can be problematic for some people, either temporarily or long term. Here 'AskWardee' who is a traditional food cook, goes into detail about why some people may need to avoid dairy and which type of dairy is the best for everyone else. A1 and A2 milk differences are also mentioned.

I love my fermented raw milk kefir and feel amazing on it and there's no need to miss on out this health food even if you are lactose intolerant, as the bacteria which make the kefir live on the lactose in the milk, so there is no lactose left when you drink it! :)

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This video starts by saying that essentially all supermarket milk (& cheese) is pretty well bad for you and should be avoided. The catalogue of negative attributes listed goes on and on.

It then being to promote the positive values of raw milk, especially when fermented. There is no doubt that fermentation has some fabulous benefits, but you can ferment non-milk products such as coconut milk to make kefir. This will then have all the benefits of fermentation with absolutely none of the downsides of milk, of whatever variety.

She makes an interesting point that all dairy milks should be avoided by anyone with leaky-gut issues. How does one know one has a leaky gut? Obviously if symptoms such as when my arthritis blew up in my face in May 2015, then looking back I can now say that that was leaky gut. But who on this forum has a leaky gut? If you asked your doctor what would he say?

The reason people stick with dairy milk is the casein protein which is highly addictive, being an opioid. She makes an interesting point that clarified butter has the casein removed. That may mean that people cooking with ghee may not have some of the issues.

One final point. I was disappointed that she, being a foodie, did not try to research the health issues of cows milk properly before making this video. It was as if she wanted stay safe with the perspective that those who had cows milk issues were those people with health issues, primarily lactose intolerance. That is "if you are healthy then raw milk is safe & healthy."

I don't think cows milk is safe for anyone. They may not show symptoms immediately. It took me 40 years of living with arthritis before it went haywire. I think consuming such a food daily is building a time-bomb in the human body. If you escape the time bomb (such as arthritis, osteoporsis, heart attacks) you are very lucky.

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Kefir is best made with animal milk as the grains need the lactose sugars to feed on.

chriskresser.com/dairy-food...

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No it isn’t. If anything it is bad for you. Studies that say milk is good for you have probably been funded by the dairy industry to get people to drink more milk. Always follow the money to see if any research you read into may be biased.

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Actually it's only pasteurised, homogenised milk from cows fed mainly on grains which is bad for you. Many people have excellent health and have cured many ills from drinking raw milk from cows fed on grass, as nature intended. Also, raw milk used to be used as a medicine!

'By J. R. Crewe, MD

January 1929

The following is an edited version of an article by Dr. J. R. Crewe, of the Mayo Foundation, forerunner of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN, published in Certified Milk Magazine, January 1929. We are grateful to Dr. Ron Schmid, ND of Middlebury, CT for unearthing this fascinating piece. The “Milk Cure” was the subject of at least two books by other authors, written subsequently to Dr. Crewe’s work. The milk used was, in all cases, the only kind of milk available in those days—raw milk from pasture-fed cows, rich in butterfat. The treatment is a combination of detoxifying fast and nutrient-dense feeding. Note that Crewe quotes William Osler, author of a standard medical textbook of the day. Thus, this protocol was an orthodox, accepted therapy in the early 1900s. Today the Mayo Clinic provides surgery and drug treatments, but nothing as efficacious and elegant as the Milk Cure.'.....

realmilk.com/health/milk-cure/

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Published in the milk magazine? How is that unbiased? Milk is bad for you, period. Water is better than milk. Milk is baby growth fluid. We only need it when we are babies. Humans have been conditioned to believe we need to drink cow growth fluid to be healthy. This is a total fantasy. We are not baby cows, therefore we do not need to drink cow growth fluid.

Also, since cow milk is designed to grow a calf rapidly, it has a lot of hormones like oestrogen and other stuff. Stuff humans don’t need. This is why humans who consume animal milk end up with so many health issues like diabetes, high cholesterol, heart disease etc.

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Actually, that is not a milk magazine it is a campaign site for REAL milk!

But, believe what ever you want. Of course, you are a vegan I see, so you are totally biased against natural, nutritional animal foods, which have always sustained humanity. So there's really no point in me trying to reason with you in any way.

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Hi folks, I think that we have to be careful here as this is a Healthy eating site and not a vegan or any other specialised diet site. And we as members have to respect one another's views and needs, however passionately or well meaning our views are.

I think that this is an interesting post Dottie and in my opinion you're right that Kefir is very healthy and we know how healthy live yogurt is.

We have an eclectic mix of members with many different dietary needs so lets be benevolent to one another and realise that 'we' are members with a common interest in Healthy eating, for 'us'.

Jerry.

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Jerry is correct

We all follow different diet and our requirements and beliefs are different

Need to appreciate these differences

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My main driver is health of foods and I find it hard to accept when people go by word of mouth or anecdotes rather following the good science, peer reviewed.

A huge problem is by far most of the food research & consequential stories on the web are paid by the food and dairy industries. There are memos that show they are following tobacco's marketing policy a mix of "doubt is our product" along with get them when they are young. I hate to accept that Margaret Thatcher did anything good for the UK but she did stop milk being pushed directly to our children's mouths and getting them addicted to milk while young and impressionable.

The fact is meat and dairy consumption is so institutionalised into our brains, our society we cannot easily open our eyes to the problems. I only had mine opened because of the extremely serious deterioration of my health, with only two exit routes - suicide or a whole-food plant... diet as it turned out.

Many websites that offer advice are shop fronts selling books and supplements (including Chris Kesser above) . The realmilk link above is a promotion of the Weston A. Price Foundation which one of the biggest campaining organisations for eating animal.

This is why I love nutritionfacts.org. It is all about real research. It is totally free. If there are any bad news stories about vegan-related diets it exposes those as well. (see B12 and vegan deaths for just one story line.) There are no adverts, no supplements to buy. It is run by Dr Michael Greger whose book How Not To Die is continually in the NY Times top 10 sellers. And before you star arguing that he is getting the proceeds from the book - wrong. All proceeds go to charity.

For me it is not about beliefs. It is about the science. Ignore the science and you will be putting your body at increased risk, and sometimes very increased risk.

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But there is something that cannot be denied, which is, that. In the past, all the chronic illnesses that are so prevalent today, were virtually unheard of and that is when the majority of people were eating many more (Better quality, not factory farmed) animal foods and less sugar, carbohydrates, refined oils etc. The Weston A. Price foundation was set up because of the dentist of the same name, who in the 1920s and 30s, travelled around the world, studying different cultures and he found that they were all very healthy with virtually no instances of tooth decay, heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc., and he found that the thing they all had in common was that they favoured and purposely sought out animal foods, to some degree or another, (Some lived entirely on them) and it was only when they started to get introduced to refined sugar, carbs, oils etc., that their health started to deteriorate and their teeth started to fall out.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westo...

So, how come if people were much healthier in the past eating all those animal foods in their natural form, can all those foods be so bad for our health now, especially if they are from traditionally/naturally raised and fed animals??

As for Margaret Thatcher taking away children's milk, which was/is an essential form of fat soluble vitamins that children so need to help their brains and bodies develop, I think that was absolutely terrible!!!

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I have liked your post, because yes, what we eat today is not as it used to be. When I grew up we had meat on Sundays and then it was supplemented during the week. Essentially because of cost meat was a rare luxury. These days people eat meat breakfast, lunch & dinner - if not for snacks. Factory animal farming hardly existed when I was young, now every fast food chain thrives on it.

When we were young we thrived on whole foods. Restaurants hardly existed. I remember my "courting" days when the choice of restaurants was expensive hotels and not much else, apart from fish n chip shops. There simply was no such thing as fast food.

The lard from meat was saved and I remember eating lard drizzled with sugar on bread. That was our fat for the day if not days.

In those days all animals were grown on the farm entirely out of doors. Nowadays most consumed meat is inside sheds and then inside pens.

In those days there were no "oils". Margarine was white with a yellow tablet to be mixed in by the consumer.

The healthiest people on the planet eat vegetables, legumes, pulses and so forth. This is very well documented.

The unhealthiest populations are those that eat lots of meat. This is very well documented.

Please point me to any independent peer-reviewed research supporting the Weston A Price foundation.

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Andy, do you think children are better hungry than having a tiny bottle of milk in the morning. So many have no breakfast before school, & little of nutritional value in the evening. Thatcher's cost cutting was at the detriment to children's health, & also education. It wasn't a science based or cow happy AR exercise by the party that support hunting, or the milk would have been replaced by something else.

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I have to agree with Dottie and BadHare on the issue of free school milk.

Maggie the milk snatcher was the outcry.

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I said something less polite! ;)

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Quelle surprise LOL 😊

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No-one should go hungry, whatever the age.

I think a non-diary child is a healthier child. One should be more careful with children to ensure they are properly nourished. This can be done even more nutritiously without cows milk. it would be very easy for me to go into a rant at this point on the very unpalatable things that make up today's milk (some of which were not there when I was a child). Just because it looks white and clean does not mean it is safe.

Avoiding hunger in a child is about consuming nutritionally satisfying food in sufficient calories to ensure good growth. There are plenty of vegan children and adults who have been vegan from birth who show signs of good health from emotional, physical etc perspectives. Some of the strongest people on the planet are vegan.

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I'm not disputing the issues with milk, rather that the removal of milk left a lot of children with nothing to eat until lunchtime. I'd rather a child eat something than nothing whatsoever, & the type of parents that feed their children no food in the morning are unlikely to skip to a vegan diet. Thatcher's ideology left even more families impoverished, & the issue is worsening with the current government increasing child poverty.

Around half the children I taught had no breakfast. I'd rather they have some form of food than nothing.

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Well said Mel,

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Biased because i have a conscience. My lifestyle doesn’t necessitate the death of animals, and yes animals do die so you can drink milk, whether it it pasteurised or raw.

Back to the health arguments. Watch “what the health” and you will see the other side of what milk does to the human body. Look at both sides of the argument before blindly deciding milk is healthy after reading something in the “milk magazine” funded by the milk industry.

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Actually, none of the cows I get my raw milk from die, except for the males, who go for meat, but no actual cows die to produce my milk. The rest of the cows and their calves are very well looked after and live out their lives in family groups grazing on grass....http://www.hurdlebrook.co.uk/cows

But of course, yes, they will all die one day and that is part of life.

Regarding 'What the Health' and looking at both sides of the argument..... articles.mercola.com/sites/...

Also, sciencebasedmedicine.org/wh...

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Exactly, male cows die so you can drink their milk instead of the male calves. At least you know that your milk isn’t cruelty free. Most people are ignorant of the facts.

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But those male cows would die anyway, even if I didn't drink the milk. It's not a perfect world unfortunately, but we have to do what we can to try and be as ethical as we can, whether we eat animals or not.

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They wouldn’t die anyway! If you didn’t drink their milk the male calves would drink the milk instead, and grow up to be adults. It is the commoditisation of animals that necessitates the death of male calves so people like yourself can drink milk. And I put it to you that no lifestyle bar a vegan one is ethical. That is the reason I became vegan, because I couldn’t drink milk and claim to be ethical. I saw the hypocrisy of my ways. If you are comfortable with how you are living then that’s fine, but please don’t fool yourself into thinking that you are an ethical milk drinker. There is no such thing.

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@Dottie2011 do some research into the weston price organisation. A quick google search returned this: “Science-Based Medicine evaluated the medical and nutritional claims of the Weston Price Foundation and concludes the website is "one of the worst on the internet" [25] due to misleading and false information.”

The research you are quoting is contradictory to some modern research which the weston price organisation airbrushes as it doesn’t meet their objectives of promoting raw milk.

I strongly discourage everyone here from taking the article Dottie posted seriously. It’s just some pro milk propaganda. Extremely biased. Think of it like “britain first” or “BNP”, but for milk.

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Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!! That is hilarious para86....'Science based medicine', yes because they are so unbiased and objective aren't they....:D !!!!!

Food isn't about science, it's about health and what works for people and milk in it's pure, unadulterated form, has been drank by humans for thousands of years and has been used as medicine to successfully treat many ills. Vegan diets on the other hand, are very new and many people seem to develop a lot of deficiencies and health problems long term, so how can that be healthy??

If you read the comments on that Mercola 'What the Health' link I posted, many people on there are stating that they were a vegan for many years and had to go back to eating animal foods, because they got so ill.

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And yet you posted a link to a sbm article yesterday. So you are quite happy with them when you think they support your position.

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Oh, yes, so I did! My bad. Some of their articles are absolutely terrible though, calling naturopathic doctors 'quacks', so I don't know why they weren't endorsing 'What the Health'. Maybe it's because too many people are now realising the facts that sugar and carbs are to blame for most of the health problems we see today, not fat and meat, as stated in the film. So, 'maybe' they felt they had to debunk the film so they could hold onto some credibility.

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Like with all cases, there are exceptions. I’ve been vegan for 3.5 years and I have no deficiencies. You have to watch what you eat more but vegans tend to do that anyway. My b12 is fine too. I’m 100% healthy according to my doc. Most vegans are healthy. The link you quote are probably the 0.1% of people for whom veganism didn’t work because they have some underlying health condition or didn’t eat a balanced diet, which means they would have probably become ill regardless of what diet they were on. That doesn’t mean it isn’t the fault of their vegan diet, but at the same time it doesn’t mean that they got ill because they were vegan, as much as the dairy industry would like you believe. @Dottie2011

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An interesting website on water kefir culturesforhealth.com/learn...

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reading through all this post has got me thinking... should i stop my young children from drinking milk?

they drink a small carton of uht milk every day at school and may be once in a week or 2 weeks with cereal for breakfast.

as far as i know there has never been any kind of warnings, but i have lived in thailand for 12 years and never look at tv. so not up with the news of the world.

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A way to think about it is this: what is the purpose nature intended cows milk for? One answer is to allow a baby calf to grow to maturity in less than a year - so what are all those growth factors going to be doing to a human that takes 18 years for this?

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hi bebwl, and thank you for your reply.

i have to say i dont know the answer to your reply, but thats to say i wont eventually find out... up untill now i had always believed that milk was pasteurised to protect people from harmful bacteria that sometimes even coursed death.

my children our on holiday now and i will make up my mind if they can have school milk when they go back...

theres over 700 children in that school and they all drink the uht milk... difficult to see how i can stop them 🤔

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That is terrible for all those poor children March1950, drinking all that UHT 'milk'. When a lot of those children develop health problems due to it, the parents will have no idea why. :(

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I’d recommend doing your own research and bringing up your kids in a way you feel best. If I ever have kids, I will be bring them up vegan, as I feel this is the best for them.

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Well, then I feel sorry for any children you bring up vegan, because you will be denying them the nutrients they need for healthy development....At least you have a choice, they don't!

metro.co.uk/2017/05/11/vega...

dailymail.co.uk/health/arti...

And in Italy, people face being arrested for feeding their children a vegan diet..

reuters.com/article/us-ital...

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Please do not quote the daily mail and expect me to take you seriously @Dottie2011

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What those Italian parents did to those children is truly awful. If you look behind the headlines veganism was not the problem, very far from it.

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hi para86, and thank you for your reply.

up untill now i had always believed that milk was good for you, thats why we give it to our children.

by asking members on here what they know and if possible to share there experience if they or there children have ever come to any harm with drinking pasteurized milk is part of my research.

by that i dont mean if you have allergies.

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One of my friends is raising her child as a vegan and he seems to be doing fine. Drinking milk is not a necessity to be healthy, and indeed it can be argued it is actually not healthy, due to the hormones (meant for cows) going to your children. Also excessive calcium in cows milk can lead to calcium leaching in bones, which ironically mean that bones can become brittle, and hence weaker, not stronger, as the dairy industry would have you believe.

Oh and when you do research, ignore everything by the weston price organisation that the OP quotes. Most biased bs source of info ever, paid for and published by some nuts working under the payroll of the dairy industry.

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The health side effects of dairy are a long term issue. This is why population-oriented studies are more helpful. Look at societies that drink the most cows milk, and what do you see? Ever increasing levels of osteoporosis, despite the dairy industry arguing that milk is essential for bone health.

What the dairy industry doesn't tell you is about acidity of dairy which the body reacts in order to restore PH levels. It does this by drawing calcium from bones. This is the exact opposite of what we want.

Sadly the calcium in cows milk is largely peed out. Just because soon foodstuff is high in a nutrient does not mean the body will metabolise it!

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thank you for your reply.

i have been thinking about it... i know that we can manage very well without the use of cows milk..i use a lot of milk in one week as i like milk custards.

my concern was for my children and the 3 that are in school drink uht milk... i have already asked them to stop drinking it and buy bottle water or fresh juice.. they have a great school restaurant.

i do suffer from gut acid and i will look more into it... thanks again for you thoughts. ☺

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If you think you could have problems with milk, it may be the sugar (lactose) or the protein (casein). Lactose intolerance is common in adults.

Modern science suggests that milk acidity has little effect on the body. This interesting article is from Scientific American.

quickanddirtytips.com/healt...

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i do have a problem with gastro mainly coursed by medicine i used to take many years ago so cut down on acidic foods.. i was going to stop making milk custards but i think i will make some in the morning...

many thanks for your reply ☺

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This is because it is pasteurised milk though, raw is different, because the calcium is more bioavailable. That's the problem, people never differentiate between pasteurised and raw milk, which are two totally different things!

Raw milk is actually neutral....

'Milk is high in protein, sulfur and phosphorus, so you would expect it to be acid forming. Raw milk contains enough calcium (which is alkaline) to make it neutral. Pasteurized milk loses these benefits, although they can be restored by treating the milk solids with kefir, yogurt cultures or probiotic supplements.'

life-enthusiast.com/article...

'As a living food, raw milk is also rich in natural food enzymes: lactase, lipase and phosphatase number among many of these natural enzymes. These enzymes help your body to better digest milk and better metabolize its vital nutrients. Enzymes like phosphatase help the body to better absorb milk’s calcium while other enzymes like amylase and lactase help you digest the sugars present in milk. It’s the presence of the enzyme lactase that help some individuals who are otherwise sensitive to lactose better digest raw milk.'

nourishedkitchen.com/10-rea...

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As a woman of a certain age, also lactose intolerant, this is a topic I’ve looked into as thoroughly as I can.

Modern research suggests that an increased incidence of osteoporosis may not be a direct consequence of dairy consumption. There is a high correlation between latitude (lack of vitamin D), exercise (or hard work), age and osteoporosis. An elderly, inactive and housebound Northern European lifestyle would seem to be a recipe for osteoporosis.

The PH levels hypothesis has also been questioned. Variations in human diet (alkaline /acidic) show no effect on blood pH, as this is tightly regulated by the homeostatic systems in the body to ensure survival. Any dietary calcium surplus to requirements will be excreted.

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No, just give them decent raw milk from cows fed on grass, never UHT as it is very unhealthy DEAD milk!!! If you don't want to give them cows or goats milk, then coconut would be much more preferable than UHT!

'WHAT’S WRONG WITH UHT PROCESSING?

'According to Lee Dexter, microbiologist and owner of White Egret Farm goat dairy in Austin, Texas, ultra-pasteurization is an extremely harmful process to inflict on the fragile components of milk. Dexter explains that milk proteins are complex, three-dimensional molecules, like tinker toys. They are broken down and digested when special enzymes fit into the parts that stick out. Rapid heat treatments like pasteurization, and especially ultra-pasteurization, actually flatten the molecules so the enzymes cannot do their work. If such proteins pass into the bloodstream (a frequent occurrence in those suffering from “leaky gut,” a condition that can be brought on by drinking processed commercial milk), the body perceives them as foreign proteins and mounts an immune response. That means a chronically overstressed immune system and much less energy available for growth and repair.'

foodrenegade.com/just-say-n...

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hi Dottie2011, and thank you for your reply that i aprechate very much.

i have always hated uht milk and would never have it in the house, even the box's of over a thousand cartons a year that the thai government give to my 3 school children i give away.

i just ask my two little boys if the milk they drink in school they have to drink it and they said no... the teacher just says take it if you want it. so i will talk to them before they go back to school.. quietly as i dont wont them to put the fear of God to there friends.

i dont think i will be stoping them from the little bit of fresh milk they only sometimes have with a small bowl of cereal.

interesting about the coconut milk .. but i think a bit to different for them, but we all love fresh young coconut water and the soft fruit.

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Hi March

Perhaps have a look at some other info on milk? UHT milk is not necessarily a bad thing, although it may not be such a good source of iodine for children as pasteurised.

newscientist.com/article/dn...

Our own bodies produce far more growth hormone naturally than would be supplied by drinking milk, so there is no potential health problem with drinking milk, if it agrees with you.

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thank you Penel, thats what i really was thinking myself. but thought it best to check it out.. thanks or the link ☺

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Actually fermented foods are EXTREMELY good for your body, full of beneficial bacteria, enzymes and vitamins!

bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide...

drdavidwilliams.com/gut-hea...

Also, what's wrong with lemons??? I agree about sweeteners though!

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I’m impartial to a kombucha every few years but wouldn’t go near cows milk (drink it), even if someone paid me a billion pounds!

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Ok, apologies Little_toad, I didn't realise you had actually had bad experiences with fermented foods and you are correct, everyone is different and our body tells us what is good and bad. So, sorry for assuming when I didn't know your personal situation. ;)

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Can I thank everyone who has participated in this debate. We come at it from different perspectives. There is a lot to learn. The journey continues...

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