Me and my OH have been on our fertility journey for 3 years now. within the last 14 months (Jan 2017 - March 2018) work have said I have had 7 days off for appointments, investigations and treatments. We are just about to start the injection stage of our first cycle and now my work have called me in for a 'chat'. They have said I've had the 7 days off since Jan last year that they have paid me for but as they have been generous enough to do this the next 7 will now be unpaid. Once I have had another 7 days worth off it will reset and they will pay me for every other appointment. They are not commenting on any other sickness days etc just focusing on my IVF appointments.
I have mad appointments the latest I can at my clinic or the earliest so that I do not miss the whole day of work and even after being puled about for this and that Ive went straight back to work.
After initially crying like a baby at the end of the meeting because of all the stress and anxiety of now trying to figure out affording the IVF whilst not being paid for the treatment, I am now so angry and emotional I don't even want to go back in tomorrow! Does anyone know where I would stand. i work in a school for my local borough and have done so for the last 8 years. I just cannot believe they have waiting until this emotional roller coaster is at its highest peak when everything is about to happen and I feel at my most anxious Any advice xx
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No advice about your rights I’m afraid but no doubt there will be someone on here who will know. I just wanted to say I understand. I was dealt a blow with work today and it really does come at the worst of times doesn’t it? Thinking of you xx
Does your work have a policy around ivf? They should do which should clearly state what you are entitled to. Mine is included in the maternity policy and includes all ivf appointments related to a treatment cycle. I was then given 3 days (2egg collection and 1 transfer) plus flexibility for scans. It didn't state how many cycles, that is apparently manager discretion but he said I can take it for multiple cycles as would otherwise phone in sick and probably end up taking longer off! Your policy could well be different but definitely ask to see it, they shouldn't just spring it on you that they have been 'generous' enough. Its not like you are having a holiday with the time. You are entitled to some time for treatment and they should have a policy to clearly state that. Makes me really angry when work adds stress at an already difficult time! Good luck xx
I understand your anger but at the end of day it’s in heads desertion if you get paid for any special leave days. If there is no ivf policy in school the it’s all up to the head.
You can self certify for 5 days of get a gp to sign you off with something.
School does not have a responsibility to give you paid time out for ivf as it doesn’t have to pay you for any other special leave (weddings, funerals, appointments). Ivf is not life threatening or/and it’s not an illness. I know what you are thinking so don’t get mad at me, but we undergo ivf as our own choice even thou it’s not our choice not be conceive naturally. Again, I know what you are shouting now, but it is a fact.
It will sounds awful, but 7 days in teachers pay is not that much ... especially that it’s for a greater goal.
And yes, I am a teacher myself.
I am sorry I have been so awful, it is good to know your rights.
Im not a teacher i'm a nursery nurse/LSA so 7 days is nearly a week and half ( only paid monday - Friday) so it is actually a lot of money, about £350 to be exact.
It is true, its not our choice to take this route but this is the only way. It states online IVF should be treated as if it would any other medical appointment which we are paid for. x
Yes and no . Yes, a lot of money. No, not a lot if you look at all the costs of ivf and treat it as one. Yes, it should be treated as any other medical app, but no, it is our choice to go through it because we want it so badly.
Please do not get me wrong as I am on your side entirely, I just reason with it.
It’s not a law to pay for our appointments, at least not yet, maybe one day it will change ...
I understand your saying your one our side but if you read back through what you are saying it does have a negative spin.
Yes it is a lot of money and yes, especially yes when you look at the costs as without a paid job the IVF wouldn't not be able to happen. Its not our choice for IVF its actually our right as everyone is entitled to the chance to have a family.
A lot of other people have given advice and things for me to look into and offered solutions and compromises to take back to my work place whereas you seem to be getting a little lost in the law and rights side of this.
If you have any positive advice or ways to speak or compromise with work to work through this it would be great to hear xx
You are right, I am sorry for that. I didn’t mean to upset you.
I was very open with my head as she was with me. We had a meeting with union rep. At the start she said all the appointments within working hours will be with no pay but I get a paid time off after and on the day of collection and transfers. I had little choice there really but to agree.
You should ask union for advice really as they are here to support us.
I have some senior HR contacts if you need help drafting something. My advice would be to initially not go to battle but to remind them gently, but assertively that you are having treatment for a disease (and my question is, do you have any comorbidity that caused your infertility? This will make your case even stronger). And take it from there. Or, think carefully about what response you think you will receive, and if you think they lack empathy and will not support you - then you have every right to be signed off by a Dr for all the treatment if you so wish. Don't even consider feeling guilty, IVF treatment time off is so minimal in terms of total time out of your entire career. Particularly in your case. People take 2 weeks off for flu, mental health - the list goes on.
Don't be duped into thinking that you aren't being treated for an equally devastating illness/disease as any else that warrants time off.
Also, the fact that they are not commenting on any other sick days, clearly demonstrates that they are treating your infertility differently, so are being discriminatory against infertility as a disease, when compared to all (your) other illness/time off. xx
Infertility is a disease, it's classed as such. NICE and NHS say so. IVF is the treatment for that disease - which you deserve to be supported through, like you would through any other disease.
Sadly, because you are a woman and IVF treatment is heavier on the female - the same old same old women's (lack of) rights comes into it. Official IVF policies are often a way for companies to minimise the time taken off but they'd never get away with this if legally challenged.
Remember, anything after ET is treated as part of maternity illness - and actually you have a right to get paid / Dr sign off for any necessary medical procedure that treats a disease BEFORE ET. You are having IVF, series medical procedures, not cosmetic surgery and I actually don't think this is simply a whimsical treatment we chose/wish to do.
It's invasive, medically and emotionally and it is the moral responsibility for employers to view it as such. I would challenge them, personally.
I dislike language and repetition of such language that makes out this is an 'optional' treatment - it is not, it is treatment for a diagnosed disease. It is not a whimsical voluntary procedure. If we women continue talking like this we will get nowhere.
My advise, argue it is a DISEASE (FACT)- and it should be reasonably covered as any other disease would including any treatments prior to and following ET.
Thank you for all his info and advice . I’m just reading over everything now xx opened my eyes a bit as they are being a little discriminative towards just my fertility appointments and treatments .
Sadly I think it's very rare for a company to have an ivf policy. I work for a small business (no specific maternity policy apart from the legal min) run by men. I don't tell anyone what my appointments are for and either take annual leave or make appointments as early as possible in the day and then make the time up.
That's what I have been doing but as i will need o go in for regular scans whilst having the injections I had to tell them as it will be 3 or 4 the clinic said over 2 weeks xxxx
This is a tricky one... It’s a bit different for me as I just made up the hours I missed. I guess you can’t do that as a teacher! However, on my first cycle I didn’t have enough holiday left over to take 3 days off for EC and recovery. So I had to discuss the topic with our HR... gist of it is that I didn’t have a statutory right to have the time off paid, but I was able to agree that the operation should be treated in the same way as any other operation under my employment contract. It took me a while to get there though & at one point HR likened it to plastic surgery, but very quickly back-tracked on that, realising that was sticky ground!
So I think it’s a point of negotiation & in order to avoid tricky accusations of discrimination, your employer needs to be seen to act reasonably.
So the question for you to decide is whether it is reasonable... they’re basically agreeing to cover 3.5 days worth of appointments per year:
- What does your contract allow for hospital / doctor’s appointments?
- Is there a cap?
- If you agree 3.5 days paid is reasonable, then how would you expect it to be staggered? (You could push to get 3.5 days this year, 3.5 days next year & claim it is unreasonable for them to restrospectively recover 3.5 days from last year given the contract is unclear).
You can also play the emotion card (I did!!) - you’ve worked with them for 8 years & this is a huge and emotional process for you - you trust you can count on their support.
Let me know how you get on... I remember how upsetting I found it all so I 100% empathise.
I have commented, but to say I was also facing difficulties from my line manager over hospital appointments and my surgery date- I got HR involved who were very supportive and took my managers details- funny enough she backed off. To discriminate against you due a medical condition is unacceptable. HR are worth contacting- I found them and occupational health very helpful. xoxo
I totally understand that, I am having a similar dilemma.
Stressful job, inflexible employer, no specific IVF policy and constantly battling with myself around what the right thing to do is as don’t want to let people down.
The way I am trying to look at it is that I have to give this my best shot and if that means making some short term priority calls, then so be it. If I had a colleague in a similar situation, I would understand and support them. I am a committed employee and I just need some support for a short period of time.
Not sure whether this helps at all
Xx
I am currently undecided about taking sick leave by the way, but if I don’t get the level of support I am after from work, then it’s an option.
This does, its strange how even when your going though something like this you still think of others and how it affects them when we should really be putting ourselves first during these cycles xxx
I am doing exactly the same, i have a meeting next week and i think once im clear of where i stand i will then make that decision xx
The senior leaders in your school are paid to manage your absence - it is up to them to ensure that your class and class teachers are adequately supported when you are off. If they feel it’s acceptable to leave the class without a nursery nurse then it is they who should feel guilty, not you. There are almost certainly children in there who were born through IVF- their parents would understand!
Can you not go to your gp and get signed off sick for a couple weeks through stims, EC and maybe a few days after ET? That way you are covered and you won’t need much time off work after ET. Doctor doesn’t even need to specify why could just say stress or something similar.
My work didn’t have anything in my contract about IVF- so I didn’t mention it to anyone and kept it private. I managed to blag to work about apts etc but I am not a teacher and then got signed off from ec to end of TWW.
You will need to be as relaxed as possible through the whole process so sometimes you need to be a little selfish. I hope you get it sorted Xxx
Don’t feel bad about leaving your class short etc. I am sure that you have given a lot of your time and life so far and now it’s time to do something for yourself. As wishfully has said- acas is helpful and maybe have a chat to a union rep if you have access. I would have a look at your staff handbook too as it will explain about sickness leave/ leave for appointments.
It can feel so frustrating especially when you have worked so hard and you can end up feeling unappreciated. Good luck xxx
Hi jade im really sorry for what you are being put through - to me it seems really unfair. To lose £350 is a huge amount of money.
Can you have the ivf done the school holidays? That way you won’t lose the money or have the stress of work- you don’t need extra stress on top of having treatment.
I have had issues with my work - I work at school over hospital appointments. mine isn’t due to fertility treatment but I have had issues since my miscarriage- it looks like my endometriosis has returned. My line manager had the nerve to ask me to have my surgery at a more convenient time- I am on strong painkillers daily which are prescribed by my GP and because of heavy periods i have low iron and am taking 3 ferrous sulphate daily. Anyway I contacted HR who were supportive of my hospital appointments and surgery- they took my line managers details and she then backed off. If I have more time off ( the only time I’ve had off is hospital appointments) then she’ll refer me to occupational health- that is fine as they are aware of my endometriosis and are supportive 😊
Could you talk to HR? Or are you part of a union- they could fight for you. Infertility is a medical condition and you shouldn’t be penalised for it. Personally I found HR to be really helpful.
Again I’m sorry you are going through this and wishing you the best xoxo
Hi.sorry to hear that you have all of this extra stress that you could do without. I work in my local hospital but our clinic is in the neighbouring city. We are able to claim the appt time/duration as an appt however we have to take annual leave for travel time. We also try and get an appt at 8,8.30 or 9 as available. However our counselling times are always afternoon. I feel that our set up allows a bit of give and take.
When I was having my treatment I used a combo of time owing, paid time from work for medical appointments and then annual leave for egg collection and transfer.
I think it’s abit of give and take between employees/employers - I put in extra time when required, but in turn hope that they would support in times like this.
It was was also very handy that I worked at the hospital that I was receiving treatment at, which also minimised time spent out of the department.
Wishing you the best of luck 💕 xx
Hi Jade I work for my local authority and it does cause no end of misery and stress when I need time off whilst doing our fertility treatment. What does it state in your sickness policy? In mine under IVF or fertility treatment it states it is not classed as sickness and can be taken as holidays or unpaid leave... and that is it!!! 2 lines I think. As if it is that easy, I have been to drs to get sick notes in past but then I have to go through the sickness procedures, hitting triggers etc. This time we decided that we will take the unpaid leave whilst on 2ww and Hopefully find it little bit more relaxing. Hope this helps. Good luck x
If you had the energy you could probably challenge this stance based on the fact that ivf is classed as a disease by the WHO. But I’ve no idea how much time and money it might cost to try to fight that battle. Nonetheless it is discriminatory as the people above have said!
Have you spoken to your borough HR team about what the policy in fertility related time off is? However, be prepared that they may say it’s at the head’s discretion. Also speak to your union if you have one.
Before doing this, tot up how much time you actually have had off in terms of hours (ie days where you went back in to school- I have always gone back in to school after this too and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect to go back into work after an appointment but would be really annoyed if they still counted that as a whole day off!). You may be able to argue that you have not in fact had seven full days off.
Schools usually reset with new academic years so I’m also surprised they’re counting absence across the academic years. My school allows up to five days per year for infertility treatment and these days are allowed to be taken as “part days”. This has always been enough but then I only work part time so I schedule any appointments I can on my days off. My clinic also does Skype and Saturday appointments which helps. I’m realising how incredibly lucky I am to have such a supportive school team.
PS your GP MIGHT be willing to sign you off with stress for the rest of the cycle which would get round the days off thing if sick pay would be enough for you. Just a thought.
Well . I work in retail so Marks and Sparks down in Sussex shoreham . I mentioned this to my manager . Theres a document called fertility leave . Which entitles me to 2 and a half weeks off as paid absence leave . This week swapped 2 shifts so today and tmoz swapped days . Friday and Monday I have taken as paid leave worth . Maybe Worth looking into it. Also I got the clinc to do a cover letter to confirm I’m having ivf treatment so no one can say anything . Hope this helps Lou xxx
I work in a HR department. There are no rights for time off for IVF treatment. If you did get pregnant then you would be entitled to time off for antenatal classes etc. Some companies do give time off in their special leave policies.
i really feel for you, I'm a nurse and had no problem at all through 2 cycles and a very understanding boss. I tried to have treatment on days off but did get paid leave when i couldn't. honestly, I'd get signed off sick!! It's clearly causing you stress which isn't good when having treatment so you're not playing the system. Hope it works out for you. Xx
Thank you, I am considering it, I travel and hour to my clinic as it’s In London so it’s usually a 3 hour round trip so I either miss all morning or all afternoon but I do always try to go back. I am considering just getting signed off as it’s stressing me out! I can’t sleep driving me mad xx thank you xx
Hi Jade, was excited at your BFP so decided to have a look back over your journey. Have a look at mine, I posted a comment a while back about IVF and work related to legal cover for redundancy or bad treatment at work.
Looks like I might be too late and your journey is over hopefully but might be worth a read for the next time xx
Hi thank you, I’m still fighting them at the moment as they haven’t came back to me with a plan after realising what they originally said was ‘illegal’ and I think they were trying to be sneaky x
Just make sure you have Family Legal Cover included in your Home Insurance Policy and make sure that covers you for Industrial Tribunal. Hopefully it won’t come to that but the cover won’t cost you much more and if you are ever unfairly dismissed you’ll be covered. I’d also advise you to keep a log of any incidents or bullying.
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