Diabetes India
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DAMAGE BY HIGH FASTING SUGAR?

We all know about complications and damage done by high sugar spikes after meals. However, I have NOT found any articles or references to any long term damage done by High Fasting Sugar levels. Anyone knows?

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Hi Fatbuddy,

Have you checked the Topics section and/or search box area for the information?

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No - NOT here - But many other sources for last five years, before I joined this-

Not found any relevant info.

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If you type in certain words or phrases into the search box, you may find a few postings with the information you want on the subjects.😀👍

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I am of the view whether fbs or ppbs if it is high beyond acceptable limit it has the same effect on body tissues.body recognises high or normal and not fbs or ppbs.

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Sir - That is NOT true. Only PPBS - over 180 for long duration damages tissues and have nerve damage.

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What does this mean. Please explain.

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even fbs can be more than 180

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That will be my next question -to do survey

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Fatbuddy,

I will be sending you a private message soon. Wait for me to say that it's been sent.

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High fbs suggests that the person can't deal efficiently with the glucose load of dawn's phenomenon. Meaning he has high IR. And he also is less likely to deal with any glucose load.Fbs is difficult and last to get controlled by a diabetic. But single reading is not very confirmatory and if repeated fbs readings are high further investigations should be carried out.

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Investigate what ? Dawn Phenomena is totally different and there NO one solution. Every one has different situation...

This does NOT answer my question --- what type damage does high FBS

cause ? any research - proven by medical association?

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Medical associations are busy with medication treatment. So, no study has been done by them.

The dawn phenomenon has been known to have an effect on the fasting blood sugars as I said.

Investigate for diabetes.

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then why so many studies - info available on after meal -ppbs ? and its relevant to nerve damage or complications ?

Yes - agree - and know that dawn phenomena effect can extend to early morning and may have high FBS. My question is about damage due to fbs ..no info

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If you have anything on mind please let's all know. High fbs is an indicator of conked glucose metabolism. So damage is not peculiar to the fbs but due to conked glucose metabolism.

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I have been studying- T@ - for last 8 years - Never found any specific study or research on damage by HIGH fbs...

Also most people have mis- conception about ppbs - over 140 mg/dl causes damage- which is NOT true. My info is that anything over 140 % ( not 140 ) can cause damage to nerves -- if stays high over extended time - and repeated several days or months. Once damage is done -its irreversible.

I have had 9 injections in both eyes - due to Retinopathy- without any symptoms--that's when I started studying and now becoming an Advocate of Diabetes and LCHF.

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True.D damages in long run.140 is a propsed / postulated level and may not be true for all but may be for majority. Since you are studying D for last 8 years you must be conversant with its pathophysiology. But just for recital high bs infiltrates into tissue spaces which if not cleared draws the fluid by osmosis.So basic pathology is tissue edema. The oxygen released by rbcs doesn't reach tissues. So tissues suffer from hypoxia. Lots of ros generated. These ros are responsible for tissue damage. Higher uncleared bs levels more is the tissue oedema and more is the tissue hypoxia. So 140 may not be very high for those who clear relatively rapidly due to low IR. But high fbs shows possibility of concked glucose clearance. Damage occurs over years.The process Any chronic disease starts early in the life - may be while in womb- or in the childhood. They manifest later in the life due to less active life and dimming - slowing - of bmr.

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That is too technical- I don't get into that detail- My objective is to help - make aware " AAM ADAMI " - average civilian to learn about and prevent complications. - Diet, exercise and frequent monitoring.

Still have many unanswered questions - that some endos not answering.

Most doctors and endos do NOT have time and brain washed by pharmas

Real numbers - for high ppbs - is 180mg/ dl or higher --- when it starts damaging berves.

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What questions did the doctors not answer for you?

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Technical understanding is necessary for better management. Yes.Lots of questions unanswered. Also any number 140-160-180 is not definite.May not be applicable to all.But keeping bs below 140 is recommended to avoid any possible damage.

Right about 180 but not true for everyone. Some may start getting damage may be at 160 or 140. we don't want to wait till one gets to 180.

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Wt does it mean 140%

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This is in response to my comment- Simple answer is - any time ppbs goes above 140 % of pre meal bs - and satys there for several hours -it damages nerve tissues which is IRREVERSIBLE. With repeated high ppbs -- in long run- over several years it damages -heart, eyes and kidney.

Since -- 100 mg / dL is an accepted normal BS -- they talk about 140 as upper limit. But in reality - it should be 140 % of pre meal reading. So, if a person has pre meal reading of 85 mg/ dl -- he may have nerve damaging effect at ppbs of 119 mg/dL. That is my understanding.

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No.It's absolute value of 140 mg / 100ml. All the nerves are not affected. Only myelinated nerve fibres lose their myelin sheath because of oedema.

No values - fbs or ppbs - is static.Always fluctuate.

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Well said.

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Well Said... :)

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High Fbs is due imbalance in the secretions of pituitary gland . It is not due to conked glucose metabolism . conked glucose metabolism is the result and not the cause .

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What imbalance?

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If the hormones like ghrelin , leptin ,serotonin , dopamine ,thyroxin, etc are not at the needed levels they cause changes in the sugar levels.

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There are many theories like leptin / ghrelin resistance but it's the cause or result of conked glucose metabolism still needed to be investigated.

There are two types of diabetes. Primary and secondary. We are discussing primary diabetes. Secondary diabetes resulting from hormonal imbalance or as a result of disturbed pituitary or other organ functioning is a separate entity. Secondary diabetes gets cured when the primary cause is treated. Primary diabetes can't be cured but reversed - controlled.

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The very fact that it can't be cured shows that it is not a disease but is a disorder . A disorder has to be attended by the regularisation of the habits which is made by taking fully balanced diet consisting of all nutrients .Lack ofsome nutrients or excess of some other nutrients leads to imbalance . When one looses a ring in the bedroom , one can't find it in the market .

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There is no distinction like primary and secondary diabetes . It is only a disorder and only cause is dietary imbalance which causes glandular disturbance .

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This is totally different and revers of what is generally known for many years.

YOU ARE BOTH ARGUING DIFFERENT SUBJECT - NOT ANSWERING MY MY QUESTION.

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There is primary and secondary diabetes.

google.com/search?q=primary...

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Hidden,

I will be sending you a note soon. I will let you know when it's been sent.

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I have sent the note now, Hidden. Please check. Sorry for the delay.

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Very true. Primary diabetes is not a disease but a metabolic derangement. It's very simple. Don't eat what can't metabolise. We don't eat grass. Can't digest. Carbs we can't assimilate / metabolise / clear from the blood causing damage to our vital organs.Don't eat carbs. As simple as that. Carbs are mainly energy and some fibres.Though fibers are necessary only carbs are not the source.

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Grass gives many nutrients when made in to juice or edible dish . In fact all greens come under grass only . It is excess food which causes damage not limited carbs.

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True.But one should avoid what can't be digested,metabolised completely, cleared and cause harm.

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ONLY if grow organic - Nowa days -there is NO good Grass or Vegetables - so much pollution in air- which -gets into rainw ater and absorbed by plants - also fertiliser and pesticides -

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Yes , what we breathe , what we drink , what we eat ,what we use in day to to day life , every thing , practically everything is polluted and the only hope is to develop resistance and immunity from them . Even meat , poultry , fish , dairy products vegetables are all unsafe from the point of nutrition . To develop immunity from the evil effects is not possible through synthetic medicines . YOGA IN GREEN environs could help a bit .

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I wonder why? I hate sugar & keep well clear of it.

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The high fasting blood sugar has nothing to do with the dawn effect. The dawn effect occurs if the blood sugar level drops below normal due to an imbalance in food and medicine. The liver dumps stored sugar to suppliment this drop. Howevever, if one does not take medicine but eats dinner in such a way, then the execesss sugar beyond consumption circulates beyond the storage capacity of the liver. If a few days of ecessive food intake, the blood sugar accumulates and the body tries to control it by excretion through urine thus overloading kidneys which may get damaged and fail. This should not be allowed if one wants to avoid death.

There is no research to the best of my info. as a body only recognises excessive sugar in blood and not when it occurs whether in morning or after lunch or dinner.

If the fasting blood sugar is in control pp also will be in control as the accumulation is less and tolerated by the body itself.

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Sorry- do NOT agree. PPBS is hard to control by most pepole and even doctors. Depends on what a person eats at meal - specially high carb and forget to take medicine - Whereas fasting is totally different -

If it was so easy to control- Pharma companies will NOT make billions and we will NOT have diabetic deaths and complications

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"Sorry- do NOT agree. PPBS is hard to control by most pepole and even doctors. Depends on what a person eats at meal - specially high carb and forget to take medicine - Whereas fasting is totally different -

"

i have no expectation that you should agree but I stick to my view fasting sugar is no different.

you have to explain in what it is different.

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I agree with you that the complication due to high blood sugar does not care whether it is fasting high or pp high.

However, the explanation of dawn phenomenon given by you is not correct. What you are describing is 'Somogyl Effect'. Please follow the link below:

webmd.com/diabetes/dawn-phe...

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That's somogyi effect. It occurs irrespective of the time. Day or night. Whenever bs goes down.And peculiar to fall of bs.

Dawn is irrespective of bs levels. Occurs at midnight -2/4-8 am and is because of surge of glucogenic hormones. Gh,cortisol, glucagon etc. The release is a natural phenomenon to prepare the body for morning / daily activities.

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We have to look to the reasons for measuring PPBS and FBS. The former is to measure the effect of a meal, the latter is the sum remaining from the previous day, post fasting.

Having either significantly elevated is not good of course. Until HbA1c came along we relied on a FBS reading of 126 and above to diagnose full-blown diabetes, which is a very serious condition.

Basically, unless you keep FBS below 100 and preferably below 90, your daily intake of carbohydrate is too high for the good of your health.

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Concerned,

Meal does not have direct impact on fasting blood sugar that is why it is called fasting. Following low carb will immediately impact pp and will reduce HbA1c. Over a long term on low carb, losing weight might improve insulin resistance resulting in lower FBS.

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Whilst there is a strong association between weight and insulin resistance, it is because they have a common cause. Hyperinsulinaemia causes insulin resistance, that is why not everyone with type 2 is overweight.

Fasting enables the measuring of the body's ability to cope with the cumulative glucose mainly resulting from previous meals.

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@Concern, Praveen -- Totally DIFFERENT

*** I am skinny- and underweight - still have T@ for 20 plus years.

*** I also disagree with HbA1C - it is okay to get prescription drugs - other wise insurance will NOT pay -- doctors will NOT write prescription.

*** I still like and believe more in controlling " GLYCOMARK " test -

**** Yes LCHF - definitely helps lower A1C - as well as FBS and PPBS --

*** Still DID not answer my question - about any reference - resources, studies about DAMAGE done by high FBS ....

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Where did i say people with normal weight cannot be T2D? I am not overweight , still T2D.

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May be I misread - second sentence - I was referring to Mr Concern's comment about " weight and insulin resistance " --

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My meaning was that not everybody with T2 is overweight too.

I think we're straying off-track though. I was pointing out why we measure blood glucose; PP - effect of a meal, FBS - how body is coping with cumulative day's glycaemic load, HbA1c - longer term measure. Each has their value, but a hyperglycaemic reading of any leads to the same complications. The implications are that the more frequent and severe the hyperglycaemia (and/or hyperinsulinaemia that we don't measure) the higher the risk.

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Thank you - Sir :

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Reply to al three above-- First thank you for sharing good info and discussion.

A. I disagree - that having FBS controlled - will also control PPBS. I have serious

issues with PPBS - have been checking 8 to 10 times a day.

B. Also I disagree with --"" Few days of excess sugar in blood will damage kidney.""

As I understand -- any time ppbs goes over 180 and stays there for several hours ... for several days ..it damages nerve tissues. Over time -- some times six to 12 months or even 3 to 5 years ... it will become a neuropathical problem.. which will then damage kidney or heart or eyes as well as legs and hands ( peripheral neuropathy).

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gly co mark test not available in india.what is the basis of your saying prescription is okay for insurancewhich is also not available in india

can you clarify .your comments are confusing to us in india

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May be NOT avialable in India - My comments are based on my personal experience and my readings at other website / forum - before I joined here. I am talking to a blood test lab owner in Gujarat to perform " Glycomark " blood test.

Sorry for confusion. my point is that we in USA can NOT get Metformin or other medicine - without PRESCRIPTION by a qualified Doctor. and doctors do NOT write prescription without the A1C - blood test.

Other comment is about insurance. In uSA - our health insurance pays 80 % of the cost for prescription - such as Metformin - otherwise too expnsive. Similarly for the Test Strips.

Hope that asnwers your question.

In Inida aslo Test Strips are too expensive - I know a friend in Ahmedabad ( Gujarat ) - I sent him a Glucometer - but he never used it- becaise strips are so expensive.

And I belive Frequent Monitoring is the key to controlling BS - and diabetes -to AVOID complications.

Walmart has cheapest Test Stirps avilable - if some one has NO insurance.

Please - NO one should feel bad about my commnets - NO intention to hurt any ones feelings.

I may be example of some one - has frustration and no control - of sugar spikes.

My A1C - 6.2, 6.6, 6.5 -- but many times ppbs are over 250.

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Sorry - typo error - have Type 2 diabetes for over 23 years

Under control now - last A1c - few months ago was 6.6

and Glycomark - was 12 .... which is better than 8.8 last year

I do get Glycomark test every SIX months ( pay out of pocket)

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What is your BMI? if you really want to get Hb1Ac to ~5.5 or less. Better do a strict diet regime of Liquid diet initially and then LCHF and eat only when really hungry, and just suppress the hunger.. YOUr Hb1Ac will become ~5.5. SURE... 100%

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This does not answer my question. This is good - generic advise for all diabetics.

My issue was sugar spikes - even though A1C is 6.6, 6.2 - don't like high spikes.

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Sorry.. if I or someone here really understand what exactly you are asking to know. May be its missed your pinpointed question after reading replies from many helpers.

As far as I know, (i am sure you also researched, by now) that the sugar spikes are inevitable or rather depends on what did you eat before that spike (mostly carbs/sugars). If you monitor it closely, you can control what really suits your metabolism, YES, obviously, all people doesn't show up with same spike, even if both taken same food and same quantity. Hope i am closer to the answer you are expecting. If you dont like spikes, your close monitoring with the blood test after taking different types of carb foods and then decide which one doesn't give you much spikes, (i.e. within your comfortable levels)

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This is too generic and know about it.

My point- question is about any Reference or research about Damage done by

High fasting Sugar ...

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I got your view. And really want to know if high FBS causes any damage.

You have a point and really you can explore it yourself, as i understood from many replies here from many supporters and helpers. from my side, frankly, I do not know any such research to give a specific answer to your question.

OK.

If you still don't feel that it is too generic to answer your question i will say some thing here.

1. There might be a damage if there is HIGH FBS level.

2. Having said above, please try to understand one thing, even if HIGH FBS cause any damage, i am DAMN sure, the damage doesn't occur or show up its impact just instantaneously, as the control mechanism in body keeps working against it, and over a period of time it tries to do it's job, and only when it no longer able to control, you would get the damage regime starts.

3. So, if i were, you i also, try to check if any such research done, and if i don't find any, I just don't worry about whether any research was or is there, But HIGH FBS is HIGH FBS, and is NOT GOOD for health or some metabolism is not functioning properly. THAT'S it.

4. Then i will focus on regulating by means of diet, or any other things etc, so that i keep it as normal as it should be.

5. I do not worry any more if there is any research or not? If i found any in future, that's good, i get to know, even if not there, still good, as i am controlling my FBS.

6. Feeling stressed is also contributes high FBS, so better be coooool.

All the best.

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I think people have answered your question in addition to some discussions on related topics. May be you should research yourself also if answers are not satisfactory and enlighten us with your new findings. That is how we learn from each other.

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Hi, after some research I have found 2 NCBI links. Hope this information will help you

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/234...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

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Thank you - both links have same article. It is for all people- NOT just diabetics only.

It shows that even low sugar - less than 70 is NOT good. Yes- it shows - fbs above 110 - can have cardio risk- NOTHING about Nerve damage ( affecting- kidney, eyes, or general neuropathy ) - thanks again for taking time to research. really appreciate that very much.

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At times LIFE is a right pain ! BUT ! Please keep at it & do your best to throw the high carb stuff out the window. Low carb is better for you. from a T1 for more than 52years & still full time employed. Good luck & well done for your hard work.

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Why are you silent on questions raised.do you have Anya seers?

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Hello- I dont sign up this site every day -

I ahve repleid to you above- hope that will help-

what more questions do you have ?

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The questions activity2004 asked 2days ago and how fbs is different in damaging nerves?

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That is my question for this topic--

Does High FBS damage nerves ? does any one have any articles, research, studies ?

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Hi, as per my knowledge- For people with diabetes who is doing fasting/ long time gap between one meal to other meal- there is a chance of two things 1. Low sugars and 2. High fasting sugars. Low sugars every one of you know the reason but high fasting sugars occurs because once your sugar levels go very low then your liver will releases the sugars to activate your brain. Hence, the early morning 3 AM sugar monitoring is also important for diabetic people to control this.

i would suggest for every one to take 1. fasting, 2. Post lunch, 3. Pre lunch, 4. random (evenings) 5. before dinner 6. after dinner and 7. 3:00 AM- sugar tests for your perfect sugar monitoring and out of all these tests you can do any one/ 3 tests on weekly basis. Means- you can take any of these tests in a week. But 3 Am sugar test should be monitored at least once in a week.

But there should be HBA1C test for every 3 months - which will give you the accurate 3mnths avg. if its below 7.0-7.5 you will be perfectly alright and if its above that u need to be very much careful. in your diet and exercise.

I hope my answer might help you all. :)

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Sorry - DeepikaG - that did NOT answer my question. What you said - is universal knowledge now- every one knows.

My question is NOT why we get high fasting sugar - BUT what studies - available to indicate that there is ( will be ) nerve damage due to high fasting BS.

What you mentioned is Intermittent Fasting ( Sashikant is expert ) - and Dawn Phenomenan -

Also- your comment about A1C is VERY wrong.. NOT good to have above 7.0.

Preferably under 6.0 even with medicine.

I do know and agree that - for older persons - above age 65 -- IF the A1C is within 7.0 and 7.5 -- there is NO need to treat aggressively ( i.e. increase dosage of medicine).

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HbA1c should be <5.6 to say its very well within control. 7.0 is considered as high.

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OKAY- will stop here now. I will continue my own research,

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High sugar will do nevre damage it doesn't matter if it's fasting or PPBS. If your fasting level is more than 110-120 it means that there was something wrong already happened while your were sleeping. And damage already done its a indicator

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Please - my friends - suramo and cofeeday2018 and DeepikaG ---

Please do NOT discuss - out side main subject -in Question.

We can go on for ever arguing - your discussion can be better posted in separate forum - NOT relevant here. I WILL STOP HERE --MYSELF.

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