Can I Claim That My Diet CURED My Diabetes?

Well, old timers here know about me and the diet that I follow and preach and that I do that without hurling insults at fellow bloggers here, despite being insulted uncountable times during my being active here. Those who don't know me, here's my little success story right from the day I was detected diabetic and into sixth year as DRUG FREE:

healthunlocked.com/diabetes...

Now back to the topic. I love living by watching the meter and love corroborating what my reports tell me with the literature available on web regarding the diet that I follow and preach. Here's one little experiment:

Base Date: 9th October, 2016

Amul Kool

Energy 89 - 178 for 200ml

(ie one bottle/can)

Carbs 13g - 26g for 200ml

Added sugar 8g - 16g for 200ml

Fat 3.1g - 6.2g for 200ml

Full day just one tea with sugar at noon as was out and was having headache. Since few days, mild headache had been plaguing and though I did go to sleep at 9:30 pm y'day I woke up suddenly at 12:20 am for no reason. Dinner itself was loads of chicken+ veg preparation ordered from outside and 2 bottles (400ml) of Amul Kool. Never took any readings :)

With sleep gone, did following experiment:

Took reading -- 77 by meter headahce persisting

200 ml Amul Kool

1 hr after Amul kool - 119 mild headache persisting

Again took another Amul Kool

1 hr after second one (2 hrs after first) -- 129 headache gone

Took another Amul Kool

Went to sleep at ~4 am as was feeling sleepy again with headache all gone.

Woke up at 11:30 am

Reading : 95

So, 600 ml Amul kool with 26X3 = 78G carbs out of which 48g was sugar and 77 as starting reading before the experiment, woke up with 95 on meter.

Total kcal from Amul Kool : 890

If computed for full day 1000 ml Amul Kool in a day and wake up number 95, despite 80 grams added sugar.

Am I cured ? Should I start claiming that my diet CURED my Diabetes? Asking this, as I have found many HERE claim that Diabetes can be CURED. As it is, for sixth year running, I haven't tasted any diabetic drug or for that matter any drug for anything like diabetes, hypertension or LIPIDS, desipite eating loads of fats which include 3 eggs a day, 30ml VCO, 100 grams nuts, cheese, butter, curd etc

:D :D :D

PS: I love discussing based on what I Do and back it up with numbers rather than do copy paste from Google Search. Why? Because there's no better teacher than EXPERIENCE. No point in wasting Health Unlocked resources (bandwidth, storage, CPU/RAM resources) by doing a copy paste of full article from Google Search. Everyone can search on Google and find that info in any case :)

My meter normally reads higher than lab.

Last edited by

180 Replies

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  • In this forum it's legit to say that you are cured.

    But you know the intricacies of it

    You still remain carb intolerant

  • :) :)

    I would love to hear from Folks who are selling the HOPE of CURE since a long time here and have people who support that claim. Let's see what I get to hear, if they do respond, from them, and then I will carry the discussion forward based much on what I had been saying, based on interpretation of an Engineer's mind :)

    I am sure that 80 grams sugar out of 130 grams carbs from Amul Kool in a day is far more than sugar/carbs in 3 idlis and yet my peak was 129 at the most critical timing of 1 hr and then despite loading on top of 119 reaching the next peak was 129. This included ingesting 48 grams of sugar within 3 hrs of start of experiment, loading 16 grams every hour

    My concept of legit is based on SCIENCE and not propaganda to sell something or to draw clients to a given doctor or buy some book :)

  • anup

    so good to hear that experience from you. But i'd love to know your bcf and ir before and now. Such excellent results can't be achieved without good bcf and low ir.

  • suramo

    As usual, no one told me to test fasting insulin when Dx'd diabetic.

    Post that, it was too late to get that data as I had gotten my sugar levels aggressively down by June 2011 and had completely switched to LC** by around Jun 2011.

    Will test fasting insulin during the upcoming yearly tests to see where it lands. Planning tests on completion of six years -- Feb 2017 -- as Type 2 on no drugs.

  • congratulations sir,well done great,and wonderful for sharing everything which is a personnel experience and research based,i follow you a lot,and read everything you and fellow members share on DLIFE as well

  • Thank you kaku30

    On dlife.in we only have such discussions for majority of the time.

    That said, please don't take my post as a CLAIM of CURE. I have posted the details with title being a QUESTION and not a CONCLUSION. That question needs to be answered by few experts who SELL the DREAM of CURE here and then I will respond.

    Till then, stay tuned on this post :)

  • thanks for guiding us by sane advice,and i also go through all the links you post validating your claims as how to" manage our diabetes "with LCHF diet which is offcourse research based . thanks

  • अभिनंदन अनुपजी

  • Dhanyavad SBJ1947 ji

  • It's a moot point Anup, and it depends how you look at things.

    And probably covered by 'Keep on doing what you're doing and you'll keep on getting what you've got'. Meaning if you carry on with the diet that normalises your blood sugar and you require no medication, then in effect you are cured. Equally the phrase applies to those looking for a magic cure that embraces unproven therapies hoping they can continue on the path that took them to T2.

    However if your system is severely compromised or permanently damaged and you go back to consuming sugar and refined carbohydrate, then no.

  • I know MikePollard

    Pl remember that this post's title is a QUESTION that is soliciting response from experts who are selling dreams of CURE out here. No conclusions from my side, YET ;)

    The engineer in me will answer once I get a response. If there's no response, I will end this post with the conclusion in due course :)

    In am very sure that I will not say that Amul Kool worked like DPP4 drug or like SU drug because I don't say anything unless I can back it up with evidence :)

  • it is said..LCHF will help you to melt your fats...

    it is also said even if you melt just one gram of fat from your pancreas your pacreas will start working back.

    You are following LCHF for last 6 years...what do you think about you fats around pancreas and liver??? are they stil there and not gone???

    If @anup bhai you are not cured...then the either theory of one gram of fat from pancreas is misleading...or LCHF helps to melt fats is misleading.

    But as per my experience...LCHF surely helps fats to melt....

    So the theory of one gram is misleading I guess....

    Or one more possibility.....fats around pancreas are very stubborn...

    What is true?? MikePollard

  • cure bhai --

    First thing: I have contacted HU for users not being able to tag my username and they have confirmed that it is a BUG. So hope they solve it.

    Second thing: You are aware of my responses and I am sure you would also be able to guess what my response would be if I were to respond immediately.

    Yet, I will respond once I see few Diabetes CURE Sellers put in their responses, if they do and believe me I will base my judgement based on the numbers which I have already posted in public domain. Obviously, post my responses, everyone is free to dispute that based on some science and not some LOP Sided OPINIONS laced with insults that some resort to against me.

    I have done many such experiments eating loads of rice, tonnes of pasta and pizza. This is the first time that I thought of playing with a mix of DAIRY (I am not a VEGAN) and Sugar.

    Future Experiment: I Will do with Tropicana juice which has 15 grams added sugar per 100 ml.

    I love discussing NUMBERS more than stating OPINIONS with no proof :)

  • nah @anup the quetion is for 'Brahmagyani' let him answer what is truth.....

    I know you are doing nice social work....and your findings are really valuable... but let him answer... let us see his 'Brahmagyan'

  • Well, I want the Bramhagyanees who do copy paste from google to chip in with their OPINIONS. Specially those who propose that some special quality wheat acts like DPP4 drug or has some SU drug like chemical, but provide no evidence.

  • cure ,Can you reply me?Who is Brahm-Gyani??

  • @Anup

    Playing with fire !! Hmmm. Good. Wish you good luck.

  • I will explain the readings. Pl stay tuned to this thread. Surprisingly, no one who sell dream of curing diabetes here have responded so far.

    What you said is right, but I don't do this every other day :)

    Woke up in the middle of the night and with nothing much to do, thought of doing this experimental run :)

    Thanks.

  • "Surprisingly, no one who sell dream of curing diabetes here have responded so far."

    Do not expect reply from Gyani people!

  • The melting of fats from the pancreas may help in more secretion of insulin

    But issue here is of insulin utilization or insulin resistance

    So fats from pancreas melting will not resolve the problem

    @cure

  • Exactly Shashikantiyengar ....I also think that its is circle...Cholesterol...IR...and fatty liver/fatty pancreas....

    Now what is cause??? is IR is cause of Fatty liver...or fatty liver is cause of IR....let our 'Brahmagyani' enlighten us... we will leave that to him....

    But we need to break this circle some where to win over diabetes....

    Am I right jingale baba???

  • IR comes first with TG rising. TG is the real nasty fat that's in blood. Not the butter and cheese, and we know what raises TG :D :D

  • hehehe @anup let him answer.... :P

  • MikePollard what could be the reason that after following LCHF for 6 long years pancreatic fats are not melting????

  • ब्रह्मज्ञानी फिरसे ब्रह्मलीन हो गए. हा हा हा हा हा

  • Who is ब्रह्मज्ञानी ?

  • ब्रह्मग्यानी वो होता है... जो सब को ग्यान पिलाते रहेता है

    जैसे कि माईक पोलार्ड

  • OMG!

  • alwaysoptimistic

    hahaha..... he will never respond....

    He will just pass some immature comments when ever subject about ayurveda or herbal medicine arises

  • Anup

    but then what about those who have TG under control ? Also what about thin and lean D people ?

  • Not just TG ...IR can be raised because of many factors ...I know people whose IR is high still no problems with TG and they still have no problem of fatty liver ...

    If we are able to resolve the sources of IR ...diabetes will be a solvable problem on earth :) :)

    Its good time to test your Fasting insulin ... to make sure that pancreas is on the way of getting healed and insulin resistance is also on the way of getting solved ...

  • cure

    Ye cholesterol ko bahar rakho na baba. Yes. Gene defect >>ir >> bcf or ir + bcf together >> uncontrolled sugar >> fat deposition everywhere. But if you think logically insulin is still acting to cause fat formation and deposition. Cholesterol is a good antioxidant and rises to obviate high ros but then it has dual effect - causes atherosclerosis as per the present knowledge.

    Ab ye hum logon k genes ka kuchh karo na baba.🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒

  • Bhai suramo dekho... cholesterol....BP....aur sugar...ek ke sath ek ate hai....tino mausere mausere bhai hai.....

    Now to measure IR TG/HDL is indicator.....

    Now can we say some correlation between all three??

  • cure

    Primary defect is ir and bc failure. Tg etc are secondary to them. I'd emphasize here that any disease process starts very early in life. D too. By the time we come to know about our D tg etc have already gone up. So it's a wrong interpretation that fats cause D. It's as wrong as interpreting that high fat diet causes dyslipidaemia.

  • hmmmm....ok...but ate hi toh tino sath sath....

  • cure

    Yes and no.

    Yes because when we come to know ye tino saath hi hote hai.

    No because initially comes the glucose intolerance. Tg and hbp come thereafter .

  • phale anda ya Murgi wala khel hai ye....

    Jo bhi ho....khane mein confuse nahi hona chahiye....

    Jo pahale mila use kha dalo....

  • cure

    Nhi bade bhaiya. Ye ande murghi wala mamla nhi hai. First Ir and /or bcf. Most probably Ir. High insulin in attempt to overcome ir causes dyslipidemia and edema of the arterial walls due to bs spikes/ high bs cause hypertension. There may be other causes of hbp like idiopathic or heredity.

  • suramo, cure

    You didn't say but how IR-INSULIN RESISTANCE is caused? As per my opinion, IR is caused due to inflammation...but would you be able to tell me how inflammation is caused? Inflammation is due to accumulation of fat cells...and due to inflamed cells....cells are not able to respond to insulin to take up glucose for energy which you term as glucose intolerance ...which is the first thing that happened as per your opinion. And bcf reduces later after more insulin released due to glucose intolerance or IR...whatever you say....

    correct me if I am wrong.

  • Inflammation is due to accumulation of fat cells

    And what causes accumulation? Insulin? Elevated Glucose?

    Maintaining low blood sugar is one of the key to managing inflammation. Dr Bernstein says 83 is normal blood sugar.

    Insulin controls the fate of Omega-6 fatty acids -- When there are elevated levels of insulin due to a WRONG diet, omega-6 fatty acids are skewed toward a pro-inflammatory pathway, creating molecules called prostaglandins. That's why WE HATE n-6 PUFA loaded industrial vegetable oils and love VCO, VOO, Butter, Ghee so much, with VCO being the highest on the scale.

    So, get the residual insulin down in blood, and that is entirely dependent on diet.

  • anup, cure, suramo

    Accumulation of fat happens not due to eating more fat but due to problem of metabolism. Diabetes, thyroid, cholesterol and autoimmune diseases are metabolic disorders.

    Now, I don't know how metabolic disorder arises in the first place...

    My mother is fat...more than 12 kg than me but she doesn't have either diabetes, cholesterol or thyroid problems. She eats more...eats all fried snacks...more carbs...than anybody else can eat but she doesn't have any of problems experienced by me.

    Elevated levels of insulin is because of IR/glucose intolerance....so high circulating insulin/high blood glucose levels are symptoms of IR ...so first go to the root problem....why IR arises or why inflammation arises in the first place....don't say what to do after IR has happened....how to control elevated insulin...that is AFTER DIABETES what to do...

    Elevated insulin levels are not due to "wrong diet" anyway....as u can see from my mother's example....being fat doesn't mean it will accumulate fat...fat accumulates in people....also thin people...like thin people also have cholesterol problems....so it is a problem of metabolism.

    getting residual insulin down...by diet is misguiding anyway....residual insulin is due to IR...IR is due to inflammation....inflammation is due to accumulation of fat cells....which is again due to metabolic disorder....

    how to cure METABOLIC DISORDERS like thyroid, cholesterol and diabetes....find answer to that question....

    Now, don't say increase metabolism by exercise...my uncle died by heart failure due to cholesterol...being very thin....was eating only boiled vegetables and walking for 1 hour daily...do u have any answer for this?

  • eats all fried snacks...more carbs...than anybody else can eat but she doesn't have any of problems experienced by me.

    That doesn't mean she is eating right and obesity is one such marker of a horribly wrong diet that she is on. Has her fasting insulin been tested anytime?

    Accumulation of fat happens not due to eating more fat but due to problem of metabolism.

    There are five markers and having three of the five not normal is indication of metabolic disorder.

  • anup

    hnnn...which are those five markers indicative of metabolic disorder? If people know that...it would be beneficial for them to know the root cause of metabolic disorders giving rise to all sort of diseases.

  • Ashka9 et al

    too much confusion. Madam the basic defect in t2d is defective gene(s). The disease process starts early in the life. There is subclinical glucose intolerance initially. When glucose is not metabolised properly it creates lots of ros even when the D has not fully manifested and there is tissue damage at the micro levels. Once D is manifested tissue oedema further adds to ros and tissue damage at the macro levels. This causes inflammatory reaction. High fat due to high bs and high insulin. The fat deposition is a result of D and not the cause. But high fats may be adding to IR but i'm not of that opinion. So now comes a logical thinking that all obese people should be screened for covert D by fasting insulin level and fbs to know their IR and bcf.

    One more things i'd like to add is that bcf and ir are two sides of one coin- gene(s) defect

  • Suramo,

    Have doubts about your above reasons of D. My questions are....

    1. If basic defect in t2d is defective genes, how would you explain my diabetes since none of family members either from my maternal or paternal side had or have diabetes.

    2. Disease starts early in life with glucose intolerance as you said, how glucose intolerance develops in the first place? Due to metabolic disorder it seems which you also understand. glucose intolerance is a symptom of IR and not the cause I suppose. what is ros you mentioned?

    3. Once diabetes is manifested, inflammation occurs due to tissue damage you mentioned...Now tell me what happened before diabetes manifested? How IR developed? IR develops due to inflammation....and pl tell me how inflammation was developed before diabetes manifested.

    4.If fat deposition is a result of diabetes than all diabetics should be obese...but that is not the case....lot of diabetics are thin

    5. For me not all obese should be screened for IR and BCF by fasting insulin because accumulation of fat cells happens due to metabolic disorder and not just because you are fat or obese. All obese people do not suffer from metabolic disorder.

    I will be happy if I am convinced that fat accumulation in liver, muscles and pancreas (due to metabolic disorder) does not cause inflammation which causes IR in first place.

  • Ashka9

    1) the same case with me. None in my family is D. Either i'm inherited defective genes from 2-3-4 degree relatives ( remember 7 janmas mentioned in our shastras. ) Or the gene defect aries de novo. howperhaps nobody knows. All speculations.

    2) IR and or bcf develops due to gene defect. There are many other manifestations like recurrent viral and gi infection.

    Ros = residual oxygen species. Nascent oxygen in simple term.

    3) madam. Ir and /or bcf developed because of gene defect.

    4) You are right. All D are not obese. But then all obese are not D. Any cause effect shshould be reproducible. But D people are more prone to be lethargic and prone to develop obesity. I think bmr here has to play role. People with high resting bmr may not become obese but can develop D because of defective genes.

    5)That was just a thinking and suggestion to screen all the obese people for ir and bcf. Because people likely to develop D becomes obese first.

    Ir first then inflammation.

    Whatever theory you postulate should answer almost all queries.

  • I think there is no correlation ...IR is the root cause ...the first step of D is IR in each and every cell of body ...and if the IR remain unresolved for years and we keep on dwelling on carbs ...this will result in full-fledged D and I guess fatty liver too ...

    I guess if non D people with fatty liver get their fasting insulin tested ...it would come high

    On contrary to reducing carbs, I have seen many people with fatty liver ...reduce the fats in diet :) :) ...they start using 1% milk instead of full fat ..start using less oils/ghee in daily life and ....and guess whats next :) :) ????????.........they start using all kind of refined oils for cooking :) :)

  • I guess if non D people with fatty liver get their fasting insulin tested ...it would come high

    I met my brother's BIL's wife y'day. She knows about my fascination for LOW CARBS. So, she showed me few lumps on her hand and asked what's the solution as doctors recommend cosmetic surgery. She also suffers from PCOS.

    So, told her that this lumpy stuff all around is LIPODYSTROPHY, and she said that even doctors said the same thing. I asked her -- Since PCOS is there, did you get fasting insulin tested? She said no doc recommended it ever. So, told her to get it done and get back with numbers.

    It is really surprising why FASTING INSULIN has been kept out so mysteriously when it can hold clue to lot of things. Is it because the mainstream knows that their DIET Sucks?

  • @Anup

    Nope. Doctors are not ignorant. Connection of pcos and impaired glucose tolerance has long been known and one of the treatments is metformin. Patients with pcos are advised to undergo gtt / ppbs as first investigation. Also pcos patients have typical look. obesity, hirsuitism, husky voice, acne and hair on face - moustaches and beard in long standing untreated patients. They also should be screened for thyroid problems.

    Yes. When endos are unaware of fasting insulin i think it's too much to expect that knowledge from gynees.

  • Yes, when I asked about fasting insulin, she says she randomly checked blood sugar with meter. I am not saying they are ignorant. What I am trying to say is why these so called associations not making fasting insulin a standard tests -- it can reveal early signs of trouble in many cases. After all, they are only following guidelines handed to them by these associations.

    Is it because these associations know that their dietary recommendations sucks?

  • Anup

    nobody hands over any guideline to doctors. All doctors learn by reading and applying that knowledge to the patients practically under the guidance of seniors. Then the world is open before them. As i said some use brain and others use tongue. Wo apna cure bolta hai na be...hans bano ya koua something like that.

  • Anup

    i think doctors are ignorant about fasting insulin. I don't think they were ever taught about the importance of fasting insulin levels 🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒

  • They think it's only for some academic purpose

    Even if they measure then what...

    Still they start with metformin and proceed to dpp4 or SU as high carby diet is just difficult to control in metformin

  • Shashikantiyengar

    I'm an optimistic person. The people can be given dietary advice so that D can be prevented or at least delayed. We can convince at least few of them. Rest will come searching you when they develop D.

  • Very true

    My colleague from Ahmedabad laughed at me for my control

    When diagnosed as a pre diabetic came to me to reverse it

    Followed what I said and reduced 6.2 to 5.4 Hba1c now

  • karch

    There is correlation among them.

    The fear of fats has so deeply engrossed into the mind of people even today low fat is the key for general population.

    I eat lots of fats -co, evoo and ghee but my family always get upset. They have a fear muje kuchh ho na jay and the argument is " are doctors foolish that they advise people to stay away from fats ??!!" The battle against fats is a mahasangram. Even dietitian talk utter nonsense about fats. This sentiment against fat is deep rooted and is like white ants which are very difficult to eradicate.

  • 2 years back when I was diagnosed with fatty liver the Dr asked me if we use coconut and or coconut oil at home. When I told him that we use coconut gratings in veggies I was told to stop the same.

    I also agreed and stopped.

    Such is the fear of fats

    It's only now that I got diabetes and learnt about LC•• that I could understand the entire process of fatty liver setting in

  • Shashikantiyengar what is latest position of your fatty liver???

    Have you re scanned the same??

  • Not yet

    Could not allocate time

    Anyways clinically it's not visible as my diabeto says

    Let's see.

  • so lost that 1 gram of fat??? I mean if fatty liver is resolved....may be your pancreas also free of fats???

  • Still it would make no difference

    I will still remain carb intolerant

    Diet has to be controlled yet

    And pancreas fat % can be assessed only by MRI

    No point in spending so much.

    I would rather spend that money in some supplements

  • OH....u mean there are more scientific ways to understand fats at pancreas...than some gestimate of 13% of total body weight??? :P

  • I had got it done free of cost under New Castle study done by a Dr in mumbai.

    He did not give the report to me but told me that the % was not significant in my pancreas

    He told me to think if I want to continue the diet

    So I dropped off and found LC=** and stuck to it

  • Shashikantiyengar I was diagnosed with NASH...a advance stage of fatty liver...

    But now it is almost resolved...I have my liver report with me...it says still some fats are present on pancreas...

    I am totally convinced that LC** is the best way of life...

    Even if I am cured or not....I am going to continue with same diet....

    But at the same time....we must understand all carbs are not same...and our body needs all macro nutrients....

    But this 13% is really some joke....

    When diagnosed my weight was 108 KG....now it is about 90 Kgs.so lost about 18 Kgs? more than 13%???

    Still I don't think I will be able to pass OGTT....however I am consistently showing non diabetic numbers.

  • True

    We have lost the ability

    But can remain in non diabetic range with the diet

  • True Shashikantiyengar

    No selling false hopes and cure with 13% of total body weight.....

  • At 4.8 A1C can we expect fatty liver? Honestly it would be a waste of money :)

  • Great then anup fir ye one gram wala theory is 'BAKWAS'.....

    Agreed???

  • Depends on obesity levels. If it is Newcastle study as the reference point, that study was done on overly OBESE people -- BMI over 34, IIRC. Sure in that case losing fat from anywhere is great.

    However, for people like me with BMI in ~25, I will have to STARVE to hit that so called healthy BMI of 21/22.

    I guess one should focus on the overall body fat measurement and get that down to a healthy range. Once that's down, visceral fat also melts. For example, the reading with caliper of the skin fold a finger width above the hip for me is around 11mm. That's great if i look at my current experiment :)

    I am a kanjoos guy. MRI/CT Scans are expensive things for me when it comes to collecting data. If it is for some medical emergency, we have no choice by to go for it. :)

  • Ghumao nahi @anup bhai....agar ye 1 gm wala/13 % reduction wala theory logical nahi hai toh nahi hai.....

  • well it's always relative. Relative to what? What if one is already BMI 22? Losing fat from pancreas theory came up with Newcastle study? BMI 34+

    Hum ghumata nahin hoon .... satya vachan .... isliye poora explain kiya :)

  • so ppl below 22 BMI does not suffer with fatty liver???

    But yar anup chod na.... jisko tease kar raha tha woh toh bhag gaya....

    aise hi hai....

  • No idea.

  • I had bMI of 18 with fatty liver when diagnosed

    So BMI does not work for us with central obesity

    We need waist / hip ratio which is an accurate measure for us

  • karch

    Nature never give up. If ir were the only cause beta cells would overgrow/ overwork to secrete more insulin. But there is no bc hypertrophy. They just give up. I think ir and bcf are two sides of a coin - gene defect. And perhaps there are more manifestations than just ir and bcf e.g. weak immunity even before overt D sets in. There can be many more manifestations of gene defect we fail to recognize. Poor healing, susceptibility to viruses, recurrent gi disturbances and gi infections etc and many more as per my opinion.

  • It's important to realise that the 1gm of fat from the pancreas translates to a very much bigger weight loss overall before that 1 gm comes off.

    sciencealert.com/losing-jus...

  • so you mean after seriously following LCHF and some times keto diet for 6 long years.......still fats are not melting????

    Surprising !!!

  • MikePollard

    How much weight loss as per your opinion ?

  • cure

    I have lost 10kg since i started lchf some 6 months back. On 6/10/16 my weight was 68 losing one kg in 10days. I take loads of fats evoo and ghee.

    As far as fat theory around pancreas i have no fat either on pancreas or liver. I'm of the opinion that it's your genes which determine how much bcf and ir would remain. That's the key to control of D. What do you say how much ir i'd have been able to reduce by 10kg weight loss and still struggling to get my fbs under control? Well for last few days i have severe gastrointestinal problem so not posting my results. But let's see what my results say esp about lipid profile since i take lots of fats and off statins for 3 months. Sugar gonna get controlled but it will take time in my case. You all recommend IF but fasting at night shoots my fbs in 140 range. I know liver dump etc but still feel that i'm burning my fats a lot despite on high fats.

  • suramo I would suggest 'Kutijarishta' for your gastrointestinal problem.Try from 'Sandu'..also Patanjalee also introduced same... just follow the dose given on bottle.

    Further I am sure about your lipids...The must be better than what u had when you were on statin.... but it will be interesting to know the lab reports.... plz post ur lab reports whenever possible.

    The theory about fats around liver and pancreas is true for over weight ppl.... those who got fats around waist.... as I know you were lean and trim... so that may not be true for u....

    But my question was to MikePollard ....that since he always talk about 1 gram of fat around pancreas and kick start of beta cells...

    Anyways he is not answering.... lol we forget... let us say...

    बडी बडी बाते ..और वडा पाव खाते ....

    या फिर अधभर गागर ...छलकत जाय ...

  • cure

    I will try kutijarisht. I'm surely gonna post my reports. Let's all learn from my reports what a person like me with very low bcf responds to diet lc**

  • What about other Brahmagyanis?You must have a few words for them!LOL

  • yar dekho.... baki bhi bahot ek se badh ke ek mahatma hai.....

    abhi last week inhi mahatmao mein se kisine mera report kar diya tha....

  • They are going through even two months old posts and reporting. Galti say ek mahatma nay jaldi jaldi main report ki jagah LIKE daba diya aur yeh baat wahin say pakad may aa gaye. Woh mahatma kabhie mere post like kar hi nahin sakta. Yeh sab group banakar game khel rahe hain yahan par, jamanay say. Sab bachkanee harkat hai aur pata nahin yeh kyun aisa kartay hain is umra may.

  • Chodo yar @anup bhai.... this is life....

    You keep on your good work.... dekho..u may earn money out of ur site or may not...but sure you will get lots and lots of good wishes....

  • Money making from site has never been on the AGENDA. We are planning few things like allowing members to store blood sugar readings, storing medical reports, calculating IR etc etc charting trends as feature on site and that will need a BIG hole of $1000 plus in pocket, but WE will do it, in next few months.

    Currently doing small things on a low budget of $100/month to ensure that people interact more on site there. Dream is to make it the most feature loaded site for Indian diabetics and all of us there will live through that dream for sure :)

    And, wherever spending money is involved, I love going SOLO. NGO registration is in prgress :)

  • Great...really great...may god give you all strength to accomplish ur dreams...

  • "Sab bachkanee harkat hai aur pata nahin yeh kyun aisa kartay hain is umra may."

    They have usual chronological age but comparatively lesser mental age.

  • If you read my post with the same enthusiasm as you are pursuing me re 'always talking about 1 gram of fat' (?) you might have seen 13% of body weight is a target.

    Claro?

  • cure

    No more Gandhijee's India....it is now Modijee's India ;) get it straight

    But some Mahatmas here are still living in Nehru's corrupt era -- the era that laid down the foundation for institutionalized corruption in India through JEEP Scandal.

  • Anup

    which was the first corruption of independent india ? The small chit passed into the hand of Sardar. The crowning of Nehru was done because of that. The person who gave that chit to Sardar very well knew that Sardar was far more deserving candidate and the whole country wanted Sardar to become PM. Nehru was not capable.his only capacity was money. The crowning of Nehru has pushed our country in a great chaos and thanks 🐒🐒 to Nehru for all the blood shed we see now . This is a bitter truth of independent india.

  • There's a long story behind Nehru/Jinna/Edwina triangle. There would have been no partition if Nehru did play a spoil sport.

  • Yes. Lady mountbetan was brought into picture to make him agree for the partition.

    But worst could have happened if jinna had accepted the offer of gandhi to make jinna the PM of undivided india. Gandhi almost felt to jinna's feet to accept the offer. Thanks to the superego of jinna that he didn't accept the offer.

    Also gandhi went on indefinite fast when india stopped the payment of stipulated 75cr because of pakistan's invasion on j& k and sardar - nehru had to surrender to gandhi and give that money.

  • There's an entirely different story to the whole partition thing. Check video of Rajiv Dixit on youtube.

  • Anup

    i don't know if Nehru was corrupt and if he wa, how much but he was surely inefficient.

    Modi's india. Well as far as economic corruption is concerned " 100 chuhe mar k billi haj ko chali ". Now we are witnessing other kinds of corruptions. Exploiting people's emotions, telling lies loudly and utter lies with confidence. Removing poverty by a unique way - making everything costly and out of reach of more and more people and calling it progress. I wonder if HE wants to remove poverty or poors🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒..Giving free hands to hawks and depicting modi larger than life while he remains strategically silent - though he decried silence of mmsingh in all possible bad and rough words. America killed laden and there was not any hue and cry. See here. Ye gire hue log kitna shor machate hai. we are paying education tax and swachchata tax but still education is not free 🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒.

    Is history repeating ? Nehru though inefficient could rule this county for 16 yrs and now this anti- poor dogala euphoric person is ruling india. But how long ?

  • I wouldn't want this thread to become a MODI thread. We know your opinion about him. So, let's not discuss it here. All's there on web and social media to see. He will function for the country and majority are happy.

  • Anup

    also we are witnessing a unique kind of patriotism. Those who are against the misdeeds of modi are automatically labeled as antinationals. Whereas the patriotic ideal of them - the modi renders 2700/ cr for the idol of sardar to the most enemous country - china.

    He doesn't find any eligible economist from 125 cr indians for the post of rbi governor but brings that firangi urjit patel - the most eligible economist of the universe. And what this highly knowlegeous rbi governor urjit patel does to show his unparalled expertise - slashes the throats of poors. How? by cutting down the interest rates on fds !! Why ? So that the money can be lended to the rich and influencial industrialists at a cheaper rate. Aur jab ye rich and wealthy influencial people load chukaye bagair bhag jayenge to uska khamiyaja ye garib log bhugatenge 🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒!!🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒. Kahi kuchh zol to nhi. poors Kaha kuchh bolanewale hai. Economic shock se pahele sambhale tab na !🐒🐒. Till then in poors ki awaz modi jindabad k naron mein dab jayegy. What a unique way of removing poverty and what a unique patriotism 🐒🐒🐒🐒. Gujarat has been ruined. Now it's india's turn. This guy is more dangerous than an atom bomb. Logon ko itna nasha diya hai ki sab ko lagta hai "all is well "

  • You have said these things many times on the other thread.

  • MikePollard

    so u mean after following up diet for 6 long years....still not able to shed those extra 13%????

    Well there are better more scientific methods like scanning liver and pancreas...

    But ok if if u say 13%....still it is amazing.....that even keto and LCHF is not able to melt that 1 gram....lol

    By the way I show same enthusiasm...as u generally show to respond to herbs... :P

    No more Gandhijee's India....it is now Modijee's India ;) get it straight

  • MikePollard ,An important question:

    Why cure calls you ब्रह्मज्ञानी-Theologian? Which ज्ञान-Knowledge have you passed to him?Why is he so impressed?LOL

  • alwaysoptimistic as per his version some one needs to loose 13% of total body weight..so it is ESTIMATED...that he will be losing 1 Gram of pancreatic fat....

    - there are many ppl on other forum who lost more than 13% of total body weight at the time of Diagnosis.

    Is it possible for them to pass OGTT??

    -Bhai @anup is following LCHF for last 6 years...and I think his body must have opted for his natural weight...and think he must have lost more than 13%?? He will be able to throw light on same.

    - There are many scientific ways to measure pancreatic fats...although you can not measure the exact grams of fats lost from pancreas....but still u can see changes in fat level.

    All NONSENSE....

  • Is it possible for them to pass OGTT??

    Diabetic can never truly pass OGTT if one is looking at 0,30,60,90,120 minutes readings. Why? Because first phase insulin response is damaged.

    120 min reading alone for declaring CURE is BIG SHAM/NONSENSE. Just a nice way to self console and a sheer waste of money and time if one is just looking at 2 hr values. I am long cured by 2 Hr readings, but spike to 220+ at around 60 minutes.

    Bhai @anup is following LCHF for last 6 years...and I think his body must have opted for his natural weight...and think he must have lost more than 13%??

    I dropped weight from 82 to 75/77. Stayed there for 5 years. Have again reduced recently to 73/75 band and staying there. Regarding pancreatic fat, it is something that has come from Newcastle study and that study was done on 34+ BMI. Unfortunately no one has ever talked about that number every time they talked Newcastle study. We need to view things in totality and can't view in isolation :)

  • Ahh...so u mean what MikePollard is sharing about kick starting pancreas is hogwash??? :P

  • ब्रह्मज्ञानी is a Sikhi terms used to describe a highly enlightened individual who has obtained the ultimate blessings of Waheguru. The eighth Ashtapadee in Sukhmani Sahib ( By Pancham Patshah?)gives us a definition of Brahm Giani and a yardstick to measure if an individual has achieved this state of spiritual attainment and enlightenment.

    - The True One is on his mind, and the True One is upon his lips. He sees only the One. O Nanak, these are the qualities of the Brahm Giani.

    - The Brahm Giani is the purest of the pure; filth does not stick to water. The Brahm Giani mind is enlightened, like the sky above the earth. To the Brahm Giani, friend and foe are the same. The Brahm Giani has no egotistical pride. The Brahm Giani is the highest of the high. Within his own mind, he is the most humble of all. They alone become Brahm Giani, O Nanak, whom God Himself makes so.

    - The Brahm Giani knows God. The Brahm Giani is in love with the One alone. The Brahm Giani is carefree. Pure are the Teachings of the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani is made so by God Himself. The Brahm Giani is gloriously great. The Darshan, the Blessed Vision of the Brahm Giani, is obtained by great good fortune. To the Brahm Giani, I make my life a sacrifice. The Brahm Giani is sought by the great god Shiva. O Nanak, the Brahm Giani is Himself the Supreme Lord God.

    - The Brahm Giani cannot be appraised. The Brahm Giani has all within his mind. Who can know the mystery of the Brahm Giani? Forever bow to the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani cannot be described in words. The Brahm Giani is the Lord and Master of all. Who can describe the limits of the Brahm Giani? Only the Brahm Giani can know the state of the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani has no end or limitation. O Nanak, to the Brahm Giani, bow forever in reverence.

  • Great!

  • On reflection a better description may be T2 is a condition that can be REVERSED rather than cured - either by bariatric surgery or a dietary change.

  • Stay tuned to this thread. Waiting for response from sellers of CURING Diabetes. Will start responding once I hear few responses from them, if they do :)

  • What do you exactly mean with reversed?

    Does this mean reversing the symptoms and complications but not a full cure?

  • MikePollard

    Bariatric surgery not a wise option as per my opinion but people have controlled D with bariatric surgery so i'd keep my fingers crossed on that. But obviously very costly and risky option.

  • In your own words-"Diabetes is like pregnancy..........".

    How any body can claim for cure?

  • I congratulate for your experiment with D2 . Keep on experimenting and posting so that public will be enlightened and follow LCHF. Thanks.

  • Thanks makarim

    I will post my conclusion after two weeks and try and explain the numbers, in light of all MY understanding of Type 2 and carb/sugar loading :)

    As noted already, this is just an experiment to understand how body behaves while on a LC** diet and not something that's to be followed regularly.

  • Your direct discussion with people on the topics make them more comfortable and efficient in learning of diabetes management.It is totally different from copy-paste support and is too much worthy.Thanks a lot for being with us!

  • Anup ji, Congratulations on your achievment How much time you spend for exercise or brisk walk daily. Thnx.

  • No walks. I hate walking.

    Exercise - No Gymn.

    At home irregular with dumbbells and bullworker.

  • Thnx Anup Ji.

  • What would you say to my diabetes... My HBA1C is 5.3 third time in a row.. I just changed my lifestyle .. taking less carb .. and included exercise in my life. I am feeling more energetic now.. triglycerides is at 70 third time in a row.. :)

  • Congratulations!

  • Thanks... :)

    Although I am 31. Dxnoised just one year before .. after one year I am fully normal without any drug .. so I can say the only cure to your diabetes is your eating habits... Indian doc will keep increasing your pills, but will not tell you the actual root cause.

  • Doctors are trained to sell drugs and procedures. They care two hoots about diet as they know nothing about it, by and large.

  • Congratulations. You will be called FAKE by critics of your diet. But enjoy healthy life on low carbs and high fat :)

  • Shankarmishra124

    Do you take statins ?

  • suramo what is this?

    I use nothing.... I m cometelu drug free.. why should I use..

  • @anup :- I found a guy IIT KGP IIM B pass out from gurugram .. eating rice with daal daily.. having HBA1C 5.3 in a row.. he was diagnosed 4 yr ago.. any thought on it. ;)

  • Unbelievable!Are you sure?

  • alwaysoptimistic

    We should find out bcf and ir of all these people. That will end our surprise. Bcf and ir would decide how much carbs one can clear.

  • Oho!I have got it!!

  • alwaysoptimistic

    Would you please tell us what do you mean by saying that.

  • I have understood it!

  • Shankarmishra124 I guess diabetes is scared of IIT guys :P and this chap is IIT+IIM...lol

    Joke apart...many ppl can do that...if they have better BCF....once BCF is lost..even if you reduce and control your IR..still you have to follow low carbs....

  • What does that BCF and IR stand for ?

  • BCF=Beta cells function

    IR=Insulin resistance

  • Walk 1km for every 10 grams carbs over 100 grams and it is possible to even eat 300 grams carbs/day if one can walk 20km per day.

  • Anup

    adi baba. Kyu logon ka pasina bahane par tule ho ? We are all used to easy life. Ye apne bas ki baat nhi hai barring a few people.

  • suramo -- That's another way of telling that actively trained athletes need that amount of carbs. Of course, you can go hypo caloric for some time and still be on high carbs, load up with more fibers, but that's a short term/band aid solution. Doesn't work long time.

    Loading up with more fiber is like creating artificial deprivation. Deprivation is not just of carbs but of everything that goes into the meal.

  • Anup

    the biggest problem is that our body adapts very soon to changed life style. Hypocaporie diet > body reduces bmr. Also only carbs contain enough fibres and RS for healthy gut. So if you take less carbs your GIT rebels. Probably my gi trouble is the result of very low carb. I'm not sure because i also have viral infection - low grade and every time i have viral i have gi symptoms.🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒

  • Well I believe you because i have a quite similar experience but not as long as yours.

    But in order to convince others it would be better to do a more or less standard test. Because in you case you ingested 78 gr of carbs over a few hours.

    The objective experience is to try doing an OGTT using rice - if you can find glucose solution. 125 gr (dry rice which then will be cooked). You should eat it as fastas possible within 1-2 minutes.

    Because you are are low carb you pancreas doesn't produce as much insulin as those who eat more carbs. You may need to increase your carb intake for about 3 days before you attempt the OGTT.

    Once you have done that and your BG are still in nromal range according to OGTT then you'd by definition be cured.

    But as said I do believe in you method. Anyone who's insulting you they're insulting themselves and they are ingnorant. How can they judge something they didn't even try seriously.

    Could you tell more about the supplements, herbs and spices you are taking?

    What is you stress level?

    What kind of job do you do? Do you live a big city or in a calm and peaceful small town?

  • The post title is a question and not a conclusion :)

    I am in Indore. Not a calm and peaceful town for sure as it is commercial capital of my state.

  • Objectively speaking, based on the test you have done, it is not conclusive.

    You should use the standard test that doctors can see the evidence. OGTT is one of them.

    As for being cured completely, although i'm very hopeful, but realistically, claiming to be cure implies that you can live on any diet including very high carb fiet while keeping normal blood sugars.

    My current understanding is that as diabetics we have already damaged many of our beta cells. If do follow a low carb diet, we might keep the rest of them if we are careful. I also believe in beta cell regeneration if one follows a diet and take suitable supplements that supports and help with prolefiration beta cells.

    Low carb andintermittent fasting are defenitely, the best thing to do for a newly diagnosed diabetics.

    I believe that diabetes is reveresible at least for newly diagnosed i.e. those who have enoughbeta cells to control their BG without medication.

    Low car is the best method for managing blood glucose with or without drugs.

  • Anup, good for you! I started out being horrified reading of your Amul Kool experiment. But it seems to work for you. I continue with the LCHF diet for my daughter and its working. Her weight loss is slow but her blood sugar readings are good (108-117 fasting and 140 or so pps). I don't know if its also helping cancer treatment, but apart from hair loss, she has no other side effects of chemo as of now.

  • suryakaizen

    Glad to hear about your daughter's improvement.

    As for cancer, there are various trials in progress with Keto Diet as an adjuvant therapy and it has positive results wrt improving quality of life and also shrinking of tumors in many cases. Quality of life includes the improvement from the side effect of Chemotherapy.

    So, once she is well settled with and into LCHF, next logical move would be to Keto diet for cancer part. With sugar cut off and body entirely dependent on ketones for a very large part, many cancer cells starve.

    As for this experiment of mine, I will pen down my conclusions, in line with whatever I have been saying thus far.

  • Anup, I have come from Bangalore to Indore on work and will be here till the 15th October evening. Would you have the time to see me on 13th or 14th evening? I'm staying at Jan Vikas Kendra, Palda and can find my way to your place. I'm Lakshmi Raman on mail suryakaizen@gmail.com. Please give me a buzz if you can.

  • Hi Laxmi,

    Good to know you are in Indore:

    (1) Have some medical emergency in family and the release from hospital is due on 16th. So, all of us are tied up with that.

    (2) I do meet forum acquaintance but once I have known them on dlife.in through their active participation.

    As for everything else, I do try and squeeze time out for making sure that I respond over forums, though late sometimes.

    Enjoy your stay at Indore. There are many places to see even around Indore.

  • Anup thank you. Yes maybe some other time.

  • Sure :)

  • congrats Anup ji. i am very much inspired with your experiments. Even am on LC** i shall be sharing my results shortly. Keep up the good work.

  • Thanks MJadhav

    Great to hear that you are also on LC** diet. Will look forward to hearing about your experiences and numbers pre- and post-LC**

  • Waited for around two weeks for getting a response from guys and gals who sell the dream of CURING diabetes and not surprising that I got no reply from them here. So, here's the explanation:

    Step1

    Base Blood Sugar: 77 start of experiment

    First dose of 26 grams carbs out of which 16 grams was added sugar.

    Readings at 1 hr: 119 ie 42 points jump.

    Step2

    Then, further 26g carbs out of which 16 grams was added sugar.

    Reading at 2nd hr after first and one hr after second - 129 ie 10 point jump.

    Ideally, it should have jumped to 119 (first hr base line) + 42 = 161

    So, what happened?

    We Type 2 have first phase insulin response conked off and it is the second phase surge that does all the hard work. So, possibly the second phase surge from from Step1 kicked into action and then started causing better control (ie covering for all the additional ingested sugar and carbs in Step 2) even after step 2 which only saw just 10 point increase over Step 1 readings. In short, insulin levels were elevated, and elevated beyond what was really needed and that's what covered for Step 2 also.

    After Step 3 of one additional dose of 26g carbs out of which 16 was sugar, I went to sleep and woke up with FBS of 95 on meter. Now 95 is not a bad number after having ingested 80 grams sugar in 24 hrs. Full day 1000 ml of Amul Kool was consumed and that meant 80 grams of added sugar was consumed.

    Am I cured? No. No way! Diabetes cannot be cured as of now.

    Can I do this every day? -- No, for sure. No fun in keeping insulin levels elevated for just 15 seconds pleasure to taste buds. Can't afford to squeeze the pancreas more and reach a stage where even second stage response gets conked off.

  • Informative explanation!

  • Was your headache due to extremely low carbs? because when you ate sugar...it went away!

  • No. I gave a hint already in the opening post :)

    24 hrs on nothing but just a mid noon cup of tea with sugar.

    Someone was trying to research on my headache in a separate post and trying to make all sorts of wrong conclusions, ignoring what I wrote in unambiguous terms.

    In short, I cannot do a full day fast, as of now without the issue of headache.

  • Yeah...headache was because of hunger...everybody gets it ...nothing new about it at all

  • So then the question shouldn't have been asked if it was because of low carb.

    Low Carb does come into play when one is transitioning where body suddenly starts having lower than earlier blood sugar levels and so can revolt. But, it passes away.

  • yes , hunger gives headache and it goes with 15 minutes once food is taken .

  • bhaswathy

    Yes, Madam. Actually, brain uses sugar for it's working. So, in case of fasting...meaning long periods without any food, headache starts...it goes within few mins of eating.

    People here won't confront because they believe sugar is not essential for brain or body, body can run on ketones...brain too can run on ketones? :-)

  • Sugar is not essential for brain to the extent that it is made out to be. Go through Video of Dr Mary Newport about her experiment on her Alzheimer's husband with VCO.

    Alternatively, you can go through articles and videos of Dr Peter Attia.

    We don't believe in beliefs, we believe in SCIENCE.

  • It is made clear in no uncertain terms that brain needs sugar only and not fats IT looses it's analytical capacity , reasoning,decision making and composure in the absence of sugar.

  • Would love to see some study which says so. without that it is just and opinion. Google around and you will find many papers to dispel your belief.

  • I think we have come to an understanding to not to go in to ''thu , thu ,my ,my .''It is a forum where we can express our views . Whatever I say is born of my experience of nearly 40 years . I don't exactly consider the internet views in all cases , though some are really good . If my experience looks like an opinion to you , please just ignore my posts .

  • You are responding on my thread with factually incorrect statement. so I need to clear that.

    Brain does function on ketones. there is only a small part of glucose which is not replaceable by ketones.

  • A small part but very vital part .

  • EARLIER u said it only runs on glucose. so what's yr point?

  • Role of keytones comes in the long starvation not a short period of one or two days .Even in short duration confusion sets in if glucose is not in supply .

  • Role of ketones comes in every day for us living on 20% carbs. Pl study more about this before we can debate meaningfully. Confusion may set in for those living on high carbs. We don't enter that phase at all and we don't starve at all. After all, if 60% fat is being processed, ketones are and will be there.

  • All those converts to low carb can as well take your advice before converting which is quite evident in the forum .So no question of confusion . ANy way people of special need go for low carbs .

  • I am not sure what you are trying to say. The only special need for us is to not to eat carbs in a day beyond the liver's glycogen holding capacity. Before converting if they are confused, I clear their confusion.

    Madam, it's good to debate. But, if one doesn't know on the topic being discussed, it is always good to read more and more about it before debating. Else, it's just a meaningless to and fro.

  • i mean here diabetics who need to cut down carbs .

  • was yr headache due to extremely low carb diet? because when u ate sugar, yr headache went away!

  • It is not because of low carb diet . It went away with the intake of sugar , because any food gets turned in to sugar ultimately and body is designed in that way .

  • It went away with the intake of sugar , because any food gets turned in to sugar ultimately and body is designed in that way .

    Nope. Fat converts to ketone if insulin is low. MCT of VCO always converts to ketones.

    Reasons of headache are already explained to avoid any speculation.

  • But it is a verifiable fact that headache goes when food is taken , though different reasons seem to be evident .Head ache could be due to tension , stress , lack of sleep ,excess strain , tumor or any other cause.Fat converts to keytone ,but in case of crisis or emergencies it is sugar which gives immediate relief.

  • That's different from what you mentioned earlier. My reason for headache I already outlined. I have no tension, no stress else sugar levels of 77 wouldn't have been possible.

    As for sleeplessness, I sleep for 8 hrs whenever I hit bed. I have no fixed time for hitting bed.

    I am free from any tumor in head also.

  • whatever the reason could be , headache goes if food is taken.That's the reason , people under depression eat ,eat and eat. For that matter any problem seems to get gone with food and people facing a problem have an empty feeling in the stomach which gets a sort of relief with eating.

  • Again you are getting irrelevant topic -- depression. I have already explained in the thread the reason for headache.

  • Your reasoning is not convincing. Leaving that point , according to me depression is diabetes of mind .While dealing with cases , lunacy is treated as cancer of mind ,mild tempermental out bursts as flu of mind ,excessive chatter as diarea of mind ,incurable madness as AIDS of mind ,to give some examples . Many times medicines prescribed for physical ailments give good results in case of mental conditions also . Mind and body are inter dependent .Diabetes is a multifaceted disorder which can get manifested in multiple problems and needs tackling in different ways .

  • I am not looking for certificates on my reasoning. So, let's not pass judgments here and stick to context if the thread. I think I know the reasons for my headache better and I have not kept it secret for others to speculate.

    Please.

  • DITTO

  • Can we end this meaningless to and fro please? I don't pass judgment on others here because that is what spoils the forum.

  • OK

  • i can't see anyone answering your question.

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