1.High level of sugar in the blood is stated to be harmful to kidneys as this condition overloads them in evacuating excess sugar

2.serum creatinine,a waste product is generated by body muscles during process of using energy. More exercise more production and more load on kidneys which filter excess to keep optimum level in blood

3 diet eaten specially low carb high fat is supposed to deplete energy requirement of body which tries to convert available proteins and fat into energy there by increasing ketogenetic activity in the body and excess ketones are evacuated by kidneys. This adds to their extra load and consequently adds more misery to kidneys and probable failure of them.

This is what is told to me by various experts/biologists .If it is true,

In case of diabetics if all of the three are in one way or other harmful leading to kidney failure, can any one suggest course of action to prevent kidney overload for knowledge of diabetics?.

31 Replies

  • This can be replied by indiacurates ji or patliputra ji definitely in detail,I think so.

  • Sorry you lost the plot when you came to LCHF/Ketogenic diet.

    Proteins don't convert to ketones and it is anti-ketogenic. LCHF that we follow isn't ketogenic per se' as one needs to cut down carbs below 10% of energy needs and also keep a ratio of C:P:F to enter into ketogenic state. Even at 10% being in keogenic state is not consistent, so some prefer to go down to 5% to be very sure of being in NUTRITIONAL KETOSIS.

    Check this out for a real case of a real diabetic on LCHF diet who had an impaired kidney function already before switching to LCHF:

    From what I understand his creatnine levels have dropped after switching to LCHF.

    LCHF doesn't deplete energy requirement of body because body doesn't need more than 30 grams carbs in any case. We are on ~100 grams (20% of energy intake) :)

  • Ragivrao So much of comments u have not get the required answer. here the some of members were commented their own view as some of them against LCHF and some of them follower of LCHF Both of them have making this group as advertise forum

    Ragiv rao Suitable answer is u must go to lab first test Kidney function test and also FBS PPBS and HBA!C and then go to Doctor he says the kidney whether is in normal or not and if damages he may given suitable medicine.

    Further Diet is good it must follows entire life. But when the complication starts not only diet help with suitable medicines also required

    This blog members most of them all R diabetic patients from 2years to 25 years

    But including me only given guidance as best of their knowledge

    For diabetic persons any complication arises then Doctor only help not any blog members

    further if kidney complications beyond on 4 th stage their is no alternative way to followed the dialysis This can done in Hospital and Doctor and Nursing Home only and not any other blog owners or Blog members .

    Please follow Doctors advise and lab tests your health is in your hand and mind

    Thanks if any points you not like please ignore it

  • I have posted a LINK where a diabetic with impaired kidney function how his condition improved after switching to LCHF. His condition was so bad that he couldn't even take MF because of kidney damage.

    We are not stating VIEWS, we corroborate with proof of medical reports. If someone prefers to ignore that, then not our fault. Blogs are exposing the reality.

    Blogs and forums are a place where people learn new things:

    Forums share practical experience backed with their own medical reports. Users just don't play shoot and scoot :)

  • @arunkumar3112 --

    Great to hear this. I am really surprised as to why some people feel so upset if a diabetic improves on LCHF. Keep at it and aim for A1C < 5.7. LCHF is good food for sure, far better than eating 60% carbs and then walking from earth to moon to cover the overeaten carbs and even then fail to achieve what a diabetic on LCHF achieves on far less dose of drugs and far less walks.

    Spread the word and share your experiences with all diabetics that you come across. It's a social service, though few self-proclaimed experts here think that everyone who talks LCHF is doing it for making money. What a pathetic thought. and all participants there are doing their bit to help each other ....without making any money :)

  • @ arun ,congrats sir.

  • Ragivrao, I very much appreciate your effort to make people aware about the diabetic nephropathy. In person ,who are suffering from diabetes,kidney damage is a dreaded complication,not only does it prove fatal in many cases ,it severely affects the quality of life of the sufferer.

    Of all the causes of CKD diabetes contribute about 30-40%. So, it is of para mount importance the people and diabetics in particular should know and understand,the early signs and symptoms of kidney damage and take measures to overcome it. It is extremely vital to know that CKD does not develop suddenly. It takes many many years to develop ,giving predictors or markers that kidney function is slowly deteriorating. If we know and understand those markers,well,damage to the kidney CAN BE REVERSED. Only when the it reaches End stage condition that it becomes progressive and irreversible.

  • Mr patliputra

    I am enjoying the debate but to tell you frankly all I said was excess ketones are evacuated by kidneys. just as it does for excess sugar and excess serum creatinine .I am told these are not normal functions of kidneys but abnormal situations which has the phenomenon of over work for kidneys and consequent failure of this vital organ.

    The persons who are discussing the benefits LCHF is a reaction which has no relevance to the issue of overloading kidneys in trying to control blood sugar which no one has commented. or clarified. whether it does or does not

  • I also find that real case which mittu77 wanted me to refer shows sr creatinine level of bhaskaran pillai as 1.8 which is indicative of kidney impairment.

  • @ragivrao --

    As for Mr Bhaskaran Pillai his thread is --

    Off all diabetes drugs, off statins and still better numbers than while on drugs. LCHF works and is far less damaging (or far more healthy) than HCLF. No one talks of damage done by drugs on kidneys etc and why not minimize use of drugs by changing diet to something that works.

  • @ragivrao --

    Let me put the LCHF part of the question back to you (wrt link that I had posted in my first reply) with data and not speculation:

    His current creatinine (around 2 years of LCHF) : 1.6

    His creatinine prior to LCHF as posted here on this forum:

    Creatinine level : 2.1

    After 3 months of LCHF 1.7

    Now after 2 + years : 1.6

    So, how would anyone with a "scientific mind", interpret these shift in results? This should answer your query about LCHF and kidney overload with Ketones. Needless to say, had he stayed on ADA diet, the numbers would only have gone from bad to worse in these 2 years.

    DKA (leading to excessively high ketones) =/= Nutritional Ketosis.

    Most who talk ketosis here, don't even know this and mix up the two to attack LCHF and when we present facts, our qualification is desired and expertise challenged. Good admin has removed irrelevant chain of comments that followed after my first reply.

  • good to know his kidneys are less impaired.I wish him long life .Thanks to you for clarification

  • To understand ketosis go through following articles by a mathematician, an engineer and finally a surgeon -- Dr Peter Attia:

    Being a three-in-one genius that he is, his writings are pretty loaded with everything (numbers, charts, equations, medical terms) so would need reading multiple times to get hold of things and is not suitable for casual reading.

  • I have read the article. I am a regular reader of articles of eating well academy being its subscriber.No where it is written that excess ketones evacuated by kidneys in urine will not causes its overloading. i still maintain my statement atpoint3 of my post.

  • @ragivrao -- I used my head (don't ask for my qualifications) to reach a conclusion from the very same articles (or any parallel article on the subject) as many a times we will not find exact words that we want in articles that we are looking at.

    Basic Premise: Energy is produced on DEMAND. Whatever is excess is stored as FAT to be used later.

    Now let's come to two situations wrt to a diabetic:

    (1) High Carb Low Fat: Sugar levels tend to run high because glucose cannot be utilized effectively. So, there's always a overload which will pass though kidney to be flushed out. As for my perception of what is "HIGH", I believe any levels beyond a non diabetic's levels at any stage is HIGH. So, a diabetic on High Carb Low fat will always overload kidney as compared to a non diabetic, unless he/she maintains. I don't go by what ADA calls high (ie > 180). That's sheer nonsense.

    (2) Low Carb High Fat: Three sub conditions here:

    (A) DKA : This is where all the overloading occurs wrt Ketones. But DKA is more of Type 1 issue -- in complete absence of insulin. So not discussing here. Most who talk of ketosis overloaing kidneys and then try to bash LCHF, always limit their understanding of Ketosis to this only.

    (B) NK (Nuitrional Ketosis): Fat doesn't keep on burning uncontrolled as energy is produced on DEMAND. Since Fat metabolism is no different between a diabetic and a non diabetic the comparative overloads between the two don't exist. Jeff Volek, Dr Bernstein, Dr Attia and scores of other medically qualified professionals have been living in this state for decades.

    (C) SK (Starvation Ketosis): Same as NK, but in an extended fasting state. In one of the article on eatingacademy, the longest fast was 385 days where the subject was just burning body fat and fed electrolytes and nothing else for 385 days at a stretch.

    So, unless the feedback loop is conked off, the state of damaging "ketone overloading of kidneys" with ketones don't exist. This feedback loop doesn't get conked off as long as there's minimal insulin in blood.

    The chances of overload with glucose on a High Carb Low Fat diet is FAR higher and this is also exemplified with the projections of increase in CKD as per a recent article which @cscon has posted in this thread. Agreed it may be US study but same applies to any continent as far as diabetes and CKD goes.

    In addition, kkjng's case is a live example on ground. If ketones on LCHF were overloading his kidneys, his numbers should have gone from bad to worse. It didn't. In fact it improved!!!

  • Thanks for your views. on the merits of LCHF diet to contain the impact of diet on overloading the kidneys as compared to other.diets. Shall we close this discussion ?

  • Sure!

  • meetu77

    thanks for closing the discussion

    I have a suggestion to make if permitted and no offense taken.

    Elsewhere you have said you have 400 plus devoted to LCHF. Probably your web site has this figures. you can issue a questionnaire collect and statically evaluate their dietary protocol and correlate to bsl , kidney function figure(serum creatinine) eye sight details, blood pressure other essential parameters to support your views positively since body reacts to every thing differently and its chemistry is very complex This could be a good research exercise .

  • @ragivrao --

    Disclosure of medical reports and details is entirely voluntary. There are many who reveal their details on that site and also seek help if things aren't going as they would have expected. Whoever is willingly disclosing it have nothing bad to report by and large.

    Moreover, that site is moderated by Anup (not me), who once upon a time was most hated and most abused person here going by the lovely treatment that he got while he was active. I don't think he will force or request anyone to reveal details for any analysis or study.

    Remember, the site is not making money to fund anything beyond what active users consider it as something that needs to be done. Anup has no shortage of ideas on what to do, but like everyone he has shortage of funds as he is spending quite a bit out of his own pocket and he is against any funding.

    No one is spending their time there for money, though few obsessed individuals here think that everyone talking LCHF is making money there.

    Currently the primary goal is to spread the LCHF message, help others who are willing to climb the ladder.

    I like your statement that everyone is different. If that's so, then

    (1) Why is everyone being pumped with same diet? HIGH CARB LOW FAT -- diabetic or non diabetic not even considered.

    (2) Why hasn't ADA (or anyone) funded a $200 million study on LCHF? All high fat study experiments are designed for failure.

    (3) What did they do with $200 million wasted on a FAILED STUDY -- Failed because they failed to prove what they set out to prove:

    BTW, there are few guys here who don't even reveal if they are diabetic, what drugs they take, what is their meal makeup and all that they do is discuss theory and RANT against LCHF. It's rant as they just state OPINIONS. They just keep silent when asked. Why? Because disclosure is voluntary issue.

    Thanks for the suggestion in any case. No offense taken or given.

  • thanks ,young lady. I admire your persistence and aggressive efforts for painfully canvassing for LCHF diet propagation with devotion and dedication. Wish you all success in health and life.

  • Thank you.

    As for aggression, that's a general misplaced perspective of opposite camp. We look at it as "passion" as we live that life and see the difference after switching.

    When Anup ( ) started talking LCHF here more than two years back he was facing it all alone -- including abuses.

    Now he has great company of diabetics who practice and preach LCHF and many of us here share his share of insults now. We do get insulted time and again. Almost anyone who talks LCHF here as a practitioner gets insulted at some point. This is the price that we pay willingly :)

    Thank you once again for your wishes and I heartily reciprocate the same to you!

  • @rgivrao,I appreciate the essence of your post.Leaving aside individual choices in the matter of protecting their health,what I would like to point out is,kidney and liver malfunctioning manifests over period of time.Every time we go for annual check up,several tests are done to confirm that diabetes has not taken a toll on our kidneys or liver.So,as soon as any problem is encountered,the doctors will give appropriate guide lines,particularly with regard to diet,and the guidence they normally provide more or less will be as per the points you are making.Am I right in this?

  • Mr venkataramana

    Thanks for your response to my post. What you say is appropriate as I am also following the same procedure to keep up my health okay and survived and reached 82 years plus without diabetic complications of any kind. Real confusion is different websites almost all of them give contradictory advise on the issues raised by me viz diet as a cause for kidney overload. You will be surprised to know that there is a web site who regularly send their news letter. In their issue of 8th april they recommend 8 ways to control diabetes one of which a diet called "south beach diet". This diet says low fat keeps diabetes under control .Meetu77 in her postings vehemently advocates high fat diet .This makes me feel that there is considerable misleading info on the various web sites on health matters.

    Personally I feel every one is talking as per their experience which may or may not work for all..

    It would appear best way is to listen to all but go your own way.

    The two days debate on my post generally did not touch the issue of kidney overloading due to abnormal body response to various diets whether high carb low fat or low carb high fat .However this young lady has taken lot of pains to explain her views which is worthy of praise .

  • @ragivrao --

    Vey briefly I looked at -

    Looks like they are selling their own ready-to-eat products fo weight eduction. That said, their premise is also "Cut down Carbs". So, I even looked at meals section, briefly:

    I see lot of stuff with eggs, cheese, bacon, cream. All phases talk about weight reduction and maintenance. Also, i couldn't find if this is good for a diabetic. All I could make of it is -- KILL HUNGER and REDUCE WEIGHT and then in Phase 3 maintain it. I am not sure if a diabetic can overload with proteins. Even they are relying on FAT -

    We subsitute all PUFA loaded oils with VCO as PUFA (ead canola/safola etc) are worst inflammatory triggers.

    @venkataraman -- Not that we don't go to doctors. Only thing we don't listen to is their recommendation for ADA recommended diet and then covering it up with drugs. Since we don't do that, we land up with far better numbers on far less drugs.

    Even we maintain no complications (if you are taking statins and bp drugs, of course you have complications but just covering it up and feeling happy that thee's no complication). Also, it's not just a one off case. By and large this is the trend for any diabetic who goes on LCHF diet. Many have gone of Statins on LCHF, although the general misplaced OPINION is that SFA will conk off LIPIDS. On LCHF, SFA fixes LIPIDS.

    At the end of the day, we look at "sum total" and not just whether sugar control is fine with overuse of drugs. If you have to take statins, Hypertension medicines in addition to sugar control meds, diet is WRONG. If any diet results in better control in far less drugs, diet is better than what ADA wants every diabetic to eat.

    Sureshbabu (one user here) is living off dietitians diet and has all sorts of problems and horrible sugar control even on insulin. Mchinna is another example, who benefited by a huge amount on LCHF despite being a diabetic for 3 decades IIRC.

    All those who switched were also living on doctors advise, including yours truly for two good years, but in bad shape and all benefited after switching. At least it works even for diabetics with two to three decades of diabetic history.

  • Meetu77

    It is good that you have analysed the diet of south beach diet with your enquiring mind and come out with a cogent answer to the difference in their understanding as compared to yours on diet.

    Americans are heavily obese including children and the health educators there feel obesity is the cause of raging diabetes in their country. Possibly the design of diet is directed towards eliminating this cause. Merely eating roasted or baked meat is their concept of low fat diet or is it anything substantially different is not clear to me. you also claim weight loss with LCHF while they also claim the same with their diet. Is it your view that .both diets are same?

  • No, southbeach is relying more on pumping proteins and fiber and cutting down on carbs during the first phase or two (haven't spent much time there) to kill HUNGER PANGS that are inherent characteristic of carb loaded diet. This isn't hypochaloric diet that few High Carbers recommend to control weight. Hypochaloric diets are a failure.

    Obesity in America has gown by 200% (maybe more) ever since high carb low fat dietary guideline has become a defacto standard -- thanks to political push. Along with that everything -- cancer, diabetes, cvd/chd, CKD/ESRD has crept up and to defend a broken diet so called experts talk of lousy sedentary lifestyle to blame.

    The outdoor recreation industry is 6 times the size of Indian tourism industry. I fail to digest the lie and all propaganda about sedentary lifestyle. By 2030, 50% Americans will be obese and 79% overweight.

    This is despite outdoor recreation industry being 6 times as large (with 1/3 the population) as entire Indian tourism industry.

    That said, all these weight reduction diets are nothing but a pointer to the fact that HIGH CARB LOW FAT dietary guideline is BROKEN and favors the drug industry. It is Politically designed (staring with McGovern committee based on a LOUSY and FUDGED study by Ancel Keys) for the drug industry. Reverse that dietary guideline and drug industry will collapse by more than 40%. America wasn't this unhealthy before 1970.

    As for LCHF that we are on, weight balance is collateral advantage. Primary is sugar control, lipids fixing etc, of which sugar control is almost from the meal that one switches. We stick to 20(max):20(max):60(min) rule for C:P:F

    We are very clear in our head. We are allergic to carbs, we can't eat too much proteins (as proteins will also spike and spike late) so healthy fat replaces everything. Medical reports of diabetics on LCHF prove that this is working great by and large, unless one is genetically predisposed to be allergic to good fats.

    Even healthy humans don't need more than 150 carbs, unless one is Hussein Bolt or Cristiano Ronaldo. The experts tell diabetics to eat 250 grams carbs and then cover them up with drugs and insulin. Pathetic!!! As Dr Attia puts it correctly --

    "The root of the problem lies in the fact that people are being given the wrong information by those they look to as authorities."

    USDA Food Pyramid FAILED and so will USDA Food Plate as far diabetes, obesity etc goes. Because everything is designed for (and by) the DRUG industry. The only non replaceable glucose that body needs is 30 grams.

  • Meetu77

    1.who are these hussain bolt and Ronaldo.why do they require more carbs.? are they Indians?

    2.I am satisfied with your answer " No".

    3.Rest is all presumably restricted to American politics drug and farma lobby ADA etc., unless you feel it applies to our country there should be no concern for us Indians.

    Any way thanks to you.

  • Ussain Bolt:

    Cristiano Ronaldo:

    As for whether it applies to our country -- at least one "young" doctor, as part of PAID consultation online agreed that it (AMA/AHA/ADA) is being followed:

    Of the others that I talked to -- they say they are following Guidelines. Needless to say where the guidelines come from when they talk the same thing that ADA/AMA/AHA talks when it comes to FAT and Diet.

    My American tilt was based on your query about America wrt obesity etc. In any case, we Indians don't process carbs any differently than Americans do as far as body goes. Some may say that Diabetes was not so rampant earlier -- I would say it was never tested so aggressively as is now.

  • "Merely eating roasted or baked meat is their concept of low fat diet or is it anything substantially different is not clear to me. "

    They have eggs, bacon, nuts, oils, cheese, butter, avocado. Unless they give a breakup, it's hard to comment. Moreover, it apparently looks to be a "commercial" activity aimed towards expanding franchise just like Dr Dean Ornish with his version of low fat diet. Would love to look at their success rates in managing diabetes vis a vis LCHF.

  • good comment.

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