British Liver Trust
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Fibroscan Scoring Card and Grades

Hi All

I found (what i believe to be) a very informative explanation of the different results obtained in a fibroscan.....Take a look.

Interesting to see how the different stiffness readings are interpreted against the condition.

hepatitiscnewdrugresearch.c...

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Thanks for that Matt. Ralph posted a good link a while back but I can never find it when I need to refer to it!

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Interesting that when I had mine done the doctor said, using the same chart that I was F2-3 yet the example below says over 12.2 (I was 12.4) is borderline Cirrhosis F3. I was told I had nothing to worry about providing I cut down on my drinking or abstained. I had the common sense to of course abstain all be it for having 1 beer in the last 7 weeks. I would be interested to know what the CAP score of 284 means? I have no idea as to what this indicates.

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Im not entirely sure that I understand it all either.

There is an interesting link towards the bottom of the article that gives results of actual clinical trials using milk thistle.

I know there is some disagreement on whether it actually works, but it seems that under controlled tests also using placebos, it did show beneficial effects to most liver diseases.

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milk thistle and other bitters widely used in Italy for liver conditions -mostly based on historic if not clinical evidence. I used milk thistle for a while-I felt better using it but not sure if it was wishful thinking.

Most of my liver improvements were dow to abstinence, diet and exercise.

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How are you doing Matt137, have you finally had your blood tests done, or are they still waiting for your bp meds to settle ( very odd way round if you ask me??). As you hadn't posted for a little while I was worried for you?? Glad to hear you are hanging in and staying away from the dreaded drink!!

Having lost my 41 year old sister in 2010, i am always keen to encourage anyone to make changes while they still have a chance. She didn't have that choice, she found out how bad her liver was and died within a couple of weeks!!

Anyway, please look after yourself. Take care

E x

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Hi Wass71

If im totally honest... I put off having them done until yesterday :(

Symptoms have been up and down but Id say generally improved.

Liver pain has reduced, but is still there. Im getting odd days of very achey muscles and twinges.

On days when they were bad Id say to myself go and get the bloods done, but then the next day they seemed fine so I didnt.

Silly I know, but im very good at ignoring problems!

Still... the deed is done and Im actually looking forward to the results (in a strange way)

I hope youre feeling ok too E? Thank you for your concern and you take care aswell.

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I don't think you need to worry too much by the blood tests. If you are up and about and generally feeling well its unlikely they are going to be terrible. You already know some damage is done. The blood tests now are really just a base to work from. That's why I'm surprised they didn't do them asap, that way you might have seen improvements from when you just stopped drinking to now, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, well done for being brave and going ahead with it. The head in the sand trick won't do anymore. So if you feel anxious about things again, just give us a shout and we'll talk you round!!

Fingers crossed for some promising results.

Have a good weekend

E

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Thank you E

I've been so concerned for such a long time, the advice, knowledge and support here makes me feel so much better.

I'm very aware that any damage is down to me, and that is so unfair to many other members... so I kind of try to keep a low profile.

But I really appreciate all that everyone has done.

I'll keep you posted.

Stay in touch x

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Please. Please don't think like that!! You've done nothing illegal, you have used a widely available and highly advertised drug, which the government has a vested interest in keeping, to get taxes, and to line the pockets of fat cat shareholders!!!

Its not your fault that through your own circumstances, or whatever it became addiction or dependence. No one would choose to be dependent on alcohol, you don't wake up one day and say, hey I think I'll get addicted to a toxic substance today. It doesn't work like that. To me it is just the same as having an illness like mine (PBC). I personally never feel I am more deserving of sympathy or help than a substance user.

Rant over. Just please don't stay low profile for that. You need support to get through this. And tgstd what this forum I'd for. If I thought there were people on here with dodgy attitudes like that, I'd tell them to stick it up there arse and jog on!!

Be strong and take care

E

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And you are the reason that this place is so helpful and comforting Wass.

Thank you for you're comments.

It is a social disease, but when something goes wrong it feels individual.

I've had so much support here, I am very grateful.

Keep in touch yeah x and stay strong. I'm wishing you a good weekend :) x

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A person with chronic hepatitis C and a liver stiffness more then 14 kPa has approximately a 90% probability of having cirrhosis, while patients with liver stiffness more then 7 kPa have around an 85% probability of at least significant fibrosis. - See more at: hepatitiscnewdrugresearch.c...

interesting I had a fibroscan done at the liver road show 2 years ago and the hepatologist there said it was borderline-later had a u/s wjich confirmed fatty liver. Nobody mentioned 85% chance of significant fibrosis -my measurement was 7.2

better go and have another one done.....

thanks

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The 85% chance is for Hep-c and would mean F2, 7kpa for alcohol is not F2 its F1 and therefore not significant Fibrosis, mild Fibrosis.

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Hi matt137

Some peoples Livers look rougher than others anyway, naturally. I have been studying Liver disease for a couple of years now and have read many official scientific papers with thousands of cases followed. I have also followed many peoples journeys from their first fears, through all the tests etc.

Several times people have feared the worse after a abnormal ultrasound and some elevated enzymes after the devil drink. They then went on to have a Fibroscan, they were 5kpa and 6kpa, no permanent damage and were told by their Liver doctors not all livers are smooth and fat can make the appearance look rough as the Liver starts to swell. Im not trying to give you false hope, its not good to have this report, but it doesn't 100% mean you have stage 4 (Cirrhosis) or even stage 3. You "could" have just fatty liver or even some fatty liver with minor scarring that you could completely recover from, of course your fears could be realised too, just dont give up hope just yet.

The bottom line is that the Ultrasound is not used to grade scarring and is hardly ever used to confirm Cirrhosis, unless it totally obvious, i.e enlarged spleen, veins around the Liver, Ascites etc.

Does your report mention your Spleen, Ascites etc?

I went to the "London Clinic" and had full bloods, Fibroscan and a consultation with a Liver doctor for £450. It was the best money I have ever spent! 4.2kpa when I thought I was going draw gasps from the operator of the Fibroscan, to be honest I had a giggle to my self on the way home.

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The appearance of a coarse echotexture on a liver, despite low fibroscan results, points towards steatosis (fatty liver) - not necescarily frank cirrhosis.

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Hi Ralph

Thank you for your advice

I've been looking at a private consultancy for sometime, and I think I'll give it a try... To save time and waiting more than anything.

The worry has taken over, but not solely because of the amount of alcohol I've had, but the typical symptoms I seem to have in periodic doses.

I am sure that I have never experienced ascites, and my kidneys and spleen fell in normal parameters.

liver pain with cramps, bruising, muscle twitches, fatigue, occasional itching and pale stools has concerned me though.

After learning a great deal, and being a member here, I'm annoyed at my GPs statement of being 'suggestive of cirrhosis' following my US....as no further tests are proven as yet.

I'm hoping to prove them wrong Ralph, and I'm looking towards that giggle on the way home!

Thank you again, it inspires confidence and I really appreciate yours and everyone's input.

What a good place to be

Matt

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very similar symptoms as mine in fact other than the bruising

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To be honest matt your drinking is at the lower end of what is accepted as someone who is an "alcoholic" I think you are stating around 60-70 units? Thats about a bottle of red with dinner every night. 5 years of this doesnt usually cause Cirrhosis on its own. Yes I have heard of people getting to Cirrhosis in 5 years, but only of 2 and they were female and drinking in the morning and it was a Litre of vodka a day or 280 units a week!

My sister has been drinking a bottle every evening for about a decade, CT scan and Liver tests are all normal ! Millions drink a bottle a night, its not healthy long term, but most arent dying of Liver disease.

If you do "have it" as they say, I suspect you have other things going on that the Alcohol has has poured fuel on. I think I see you are on statins, these dont go well with drinking. The fact you are on statins at 43 suggests fat handling issues, the statins affect this and your Liver.

Usually when I have seen "suggestive of Cirrhosis" it is along side "nodules" for instance I know of a female poster on another board who had a report pretty similar to yours, but "suggestive of parenchymal disease" after 30 years of drinking 4 cans of lager a night and her last 2 years it was drinking all day long. She went for a Fibroscan and got 8kpa, yes she had scarring, but F2 is recoverable and with sobriety she has a chance to recover completely.

If you can matt post all your tests word for word and any blood tests results, some here are pretty good with what they mean or indicate.

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Hi Ralph

Thanks for your help.

Im afraid the drinking has been for more like 10-12 years, but i cant really remember at what level I was all that time ago.

Ive also always been on the rotund side.

6 ft and 17 stone, but now Im down to 15st 8lb, so Ive done well.

Ive had the bloods done now so will post as soon as I recieve

Ta

M

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Matt the patient trial I had is still recruiting if you want a fibroscan. It only took a couple of hours and they pay your travel expenses.

It consists of an MRI,a fibroscan and a short interview about the experience.

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Hi Mama41, do you have any more details I can look at?

Website or email address?

And what part opf the country are you in?

Thanks

Matt

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hows the digestive system doing? some of your stranger symptoms -twitching etc./cramps could be down do vitamin deficiency caused by malabsorption of fats. Taking a standard multivitamin may assist. Vitamin D and B deficiency very common.

I've certainly found this.

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Thanks brccolone, Ive been having a read and I think ill give it a try.

Stools are sometimes fatty so there must be something going on.

Do you think a Vit defiency could also cause palputations and a fluttery chest sometimes?

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definitely-the fats arent being absorbed and so a lot of vitamins arent being processed. worth looking at that next time at the docs when you discuss the bloods vit b and d cause all kinds of strange things

cheers

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Briccolone... I need to THANK YOU!!!

Brilliant advice.

I had a read about the defiencies and got a B-Complex and D supplement.

Basically 'over did it' on them for a couple of days and the twinges and tremours in my hands have stopped!

Palpitations also seem to have dissapearred!

Im hoping im not talking to soon, but my muscles today feel completely different.

Im so happy fella... thanks so much

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you are very welcome-dont over do them though as supplements also are processed by the liver. I recommend Berocca as a vitamin boost.

I'm updating your thread in particular as your symptoms are very similar to mine-I suspect I have ALD although as yet not fully diagnosed.

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hows it going matt-any news/results? any improvements?

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Hi Briccolone

The results are waiting at my GP. I've resisted collecting them. I've had a few calls from them but no explained my situation. He wants me to go see him.

I lost my mother on Friday after a short 6 week battle with ovarian cancer.

It's been really hard on my dad so didn't really want to deal with that aswell.

I'll pluck up the courage next week after the funeral.

Thanks for your concern, it means a lot

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sorry to hear that mate-that's not what you want happening as obviously adds to the anxiety.

I think thats the correct approach-no point rushing as there arent going to be any bad changes over a week or so-you've already made the appropriate lifestyle changes anwyay. I'm hoping that you're feeling better(physically by now). BTW I had a bad dose of liver inflammation recently-just coming out of it-havent drunk for a month-things gradually returning to normal but I suspect I have f2/f3 fibrosis-going to get the tests done in a week or so and I'm not looking forward to them either but as per your useful post on fibrosis recently-there is light at the end of the tunnel-our fellow poster tammyscholey has proved that..

all the best

K

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Many thanks mate.

I hope your results come back better than expected.

I'll keep in touch and take care

Matt

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Cheers all the best for the next few days meanwhile I've managed to slip a disc which has now taken over as prime health issue...ho ho its all fun isn't it....

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Great post Matt, I had fibroscan done in September 2015 and was shocked by result I was told I was F4, I had gone from F2 to F4 in 18 months, and now qualified me for treatment, ...Harvoni/Riba.... 2 week's into treatment I had an ultrasound which the results showed F2 borderline F3.

I was told by my nurse that if I'd had the ultrasound first I wouldn't have qualified for treatment...! I summise that fibroscan, isn't as definitive as I was led to believe. Thank god I had them that way round.

Awaiting 12week blood results, with fingers crossed.

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Im a little confused by these scans. The 2nd scan, an ultrasound that they said showed F2 borderline F3? You cant stage Fibrosis with an ultrasound very well, thats why the Fibroscan was invented, it more likely that the ultrasound is actually wrong. The Fibroscan is a much better tool than an ultrasound. You should have another Fibroscan.

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thought you may find this interesting.. I've seen this before nd you may have googled it ..http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/alcoholic-liver-disease-discussions/general-support/3872190-what-ive-learned-about-alcoholic-liver-disease

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Great article 

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