Hi all, wondering if there’s anyone out there who has moved off of using prescription blood thinners in favor of “natural “ remedies such as turmeric? I see on the internet a lot of warnings not to use turmeric while on a blood thinner, but no mention of going the other way ‘round , which seems like an obvious question. I’m using turmeric tea as an anti inflammatory for my arthritis. I also have paroxysmal afib treated with propafenone but I’m not on a blood thinner due to daily dosing of NSAIDs to help manage the arthritis pain.
Appreciate any responses.
Best to all,
John
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Not a great idea. A gentleman died last year from unctontrolled intestinal bleeding after taking a home brewed cocktail of turmeric and ginger . The problem is that there is no way of judging or measuring the efficacy.
If your chadsvasc score means you should be on anticoagulants for your AFthen best speak to your consultant about one of the left atrial occlusion devices such as Watchman. You will I hope already know that NSAIDs are linked to causing AF.
Thanks again, FlapJack. I don’t mind saying this is scary shite. Lately two cardios have been somewhat pushing ablations, I’m really hoping to avoid what I think of as drastic remedies. Who knows whether I can or not. but I sincerely do appreciate your informing me about this approach.
Thanks BobD. I see you’re a regular responder to inquiries here and I appreciate your responding to mine. Actually this is the first I’ve heard about NSAIDs being linked to afib, so thanks for that. As it happens, my turmeric concoction also has ginger and black pepper, so you’ve given me a worry here. It seems every remedy for arthritis pain has negative consequences. Bloody hell (no pun intended). Where’s the win win solution?
BobD, just reread your response and thanks again. Actually I did my chadsvasc score yesterday, after reading another of your responses. I’m either a 1 or a 2, depending on how the (somewhat minimal yet nonetheless present) plaque in my arteries gets scored.
No he just made up his own concoction of ginger and turmeric as a form of tea and drank it over a period of days. Doctors fought to save him for two days but were unable to stop the bleeding .
That's simplistic. The so called quantifiable and measurable doses that are recommended for prescription drugs are a one size fits all affair. Anything that has been around since before the mid 90s is unlikely to have been tested in the clinical trials ( that determine doses) on one half of the population - the female half. Drugs are not tested in conjunction with multiple others which is how they are prescribed to the elderly and no notice is taken of the genetic differences in metabolisation. So the fact that we are all different means that some will be taking too much of the set doses for prescription drugs and others too little. And the consequences of this are seen hundreds of thousands of times a year .
The problem is that the main life changing risk associated with AF is ischemic stroke which can be devastating so the question is would you want use any form of medication which has not gone through the same trial and testing process as conventional anticoagulants which are known to reduce that risk. I appreciate your dilemma, but NSAIDs, especially Ibuprofen are known to cause AF so to rely on a natural, untested alternatives is potential an even bigger risk…..
Damn, it’s hard to argue with your logic. Thanks FlapJack. As I replied to BobD, this is the first I’ve heard of NSAIDs being linked to afib. I consider myself fairly well read, so a bit embarrassed by this apparent gap in my knowledge. My cardiologist never mentioned it either, as we had extensive discussions about going on anticoagulants vs the NSAIDs.
Of course, there’s an industry involved in conventional anticoagulants, vs turmeric being in the commons, so to speak. So there’s not a lot of motivation to produce gold standard studies on the efficacy of turmeric. But that said, I’m not dismissing your point, even as I’m thinking the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I’m just bloody reluctant (again, no pun intended) to start taking yet another set of pills!
Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion. Sincerely appreciate that!
Jf - the study into NSAID's and AF was done some years ago and somewhere I read the recommendation that they should be prescribed with care in over 55's'. This is the BMJ report on the Uni of Aarhus study.
The problem with using natural substances touted as "blood thinners" is that this is too broad a category. Is the substance anticoagulant or anti aggregant? This is often hard to find out. Anti aggregants stop platelets clumping together like aspirin does - no good for afib. These can cause severe bleeding problems just as aspirin can if taken in too high quantities. The only natural substance I am aware of that is anticoagulant is nattokinase whose main quality is actually clot busting . Natto from which nattokinase is derived is a part of the traditional Japanese diet. Before becoming more westernised dietwise the Japanese had a very low level of ischaemic stroke , but they did have strokes - haemorrhagic ones!
The difficulty is precision. You would have to consume something like 8g of Curcumin, the active ingredient of Tumeric, to have the same affect as a pharmaceutical anticoagulant but this could also be very unpredictable so therefor under or overdosing will be very hit and miss as everyone metabolises differently. Now you might get to 8g of Curcumin if you take a supplement but I read in a Herbalist’s publication that you’d have consume about 100g-200g of powdered Tumeric to consume an amount equivalent to a dose of pharmaceutical.
There has been almost zero tests on herbal remedies in controlled trials but there have reported deaths of people who have self experimented. For this reason alone, not something I would want to experiment with. I’ve talked to a few Herbalists on this subject and also about Ginger, also contains Curcumin and which I consume daily and sometimes quite a lot of and the answer I got is that taken as foods or tea they are confident that it’s OK to have if on anticoagulants however avoid the supplement capsules.
I often buy fresh Tumeric root and use as flavouring and to make Tumeric Latte which I had as a substitute for coffee for a while. You can often get in cafes as coffee alternative.
There is another popular substitute - Nattokinase but my understanding is it’s more for clot busting than anticoagulation. Popular in Japan and some research. If you do a search in the search box you will see that this subject has been discussed on numerous occasions and the answers you will get from the majority of this forum will be - don’t attempt it.
I believe some Pharmaceutical companies are currently very interested in testing some types of seaweed and sea algae for their anticoagulant properties.
I did look into it at some depth and I have yet to find anyone with any evidence which convinced me to try so although I don’t like taking anticoagulants, I like even less my risk of stroke with AF, already had a TIA, so I’ll stick to my Pharmaceuticals and keep taking my Tumeric teas, use as flavourings and Lattes.
CDreamer, thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Each one I’ve read so far has given me a lot to chew on, yours especially since I can tell you’ve tried to go down the path I’m looking to go down but weighed the evidence and decided it wasn’t the right path. I’ve got conflicting issues and I’m trying to find the win-win, with no luck so far. Just recently I saw a post here about acupuncture being a possible solution to afib. I’ll explore that some more. In the meantime, am I correct that you’re using a prescription anticoagulant while also at least occasionally imbibing ina turmeric tea concoction? That would be at least a bit reassuring that I’m not being reckless.Best regards, John
Yes, I take Apixaban & eat raw ginger root, garlic & Tumeric as foods or teas, my favourite tea is Puka Active Tumeric. I’ve never had any problem doing that but was warned by my herbalist to avoid concentrated forms in supplements.
I have found that even my Functional medicine trained GP friend has little real knowledge of anticoagulants & herbs and spices as foods and I believe food is our medicine.
Funny you should mention this, because in the last month I’ve been stricken with sciatica and am currently undergoing acupuncture treatment for it. After three weeks of mixed results and a lot of pain, starting Celebrex was a godsend. An mri recently revealed a compressed and herniated disc. Bugger! The acupuncturist changed his approach slightly and I’m seeing some improvement. TG! I’m trying to stay away from Celebrex but it’s entirely a situational thing, if you understand me.
Well it may seem more natural but tumeric still is a mix of chemicals just like my apixaban. Apixaban has an antidote but I bet there isn't one for tumeric.
Went for an appointment yesterday afternoon about my hips. Much to my amazement got rung up this morning with an appointment in a fortnight's time with the surgeon. I read that with hip replacement surgery you need to stop taking the anti-coagulant a week before surgery. That makes sense.
Hi Physalis, many thanks for responding. I get your logic, in fact had the same thought. It’s all better living through chemistry, isn’t it? I had a hip done eleven years ago and there’s a knee in my shorter-term future, I think. Until then, I’m in pain management mode. Hence my experiment w turmeric. Good luck with your hip if that happens!
Oh, it's going to happen if I last out that long. I think the waiting list is 6-7 months so I am hopeful it will be done this year. Fortunately I am not in pain. Was a couple of months ago and my doctor warned me off ibuprofen but said paracetamol was ok.
I had to stop taking my Apixaban 8 days before my hip replacement in Dec but I had bridging Lovenox jabs . My stomach was black with enormous bruises by the time I went into the clinic. I restarted the Apixaban the day after the op. An interesting side effect of this is that my arthritis pain considerably improved !
Saw the chap at the clinic on Wednesday, got an appointment with the surgeon, looks top notch, on Wednesday week. I'm NHS but it's a private hospital. Think I might have a private room which will be good because I can listen to BBC Sounds if I can't sleep. Now, all I've got to find out is how long I will have to wait. Think it may be 6-7 months which will bring me up to the end of the year. Then might have the other one done next summer. I must say I was really pleased as I thought they might not think I was bad enough.
I'm hoping that I will be able to cope on my own when they send me home.
As for the Eliquis, my Chad-Vasc score is only 1 and I don't see any problem there.
I had the right hip done in Dec . I was very pleasantly surprised at how much better it all was than I expected. I had no cartilage left in that hip and it felt weak but the pain in the left was worse. I am having the left done in Sept . When I saw my surgeon in April for my second post op check he asked me when I wanted the left done and I said November, as I couldn't get on our motor bike till he oked it in April and I wanted to enjoy the summer. But the pain has got so much worse I phoned his secretary and got it brought forward. Here in France if you have good enough complementary insurance you can go to a private clinic and pick your dates ( within medical parameters). They get you up and walking pretty quick . I was operated on last in Dec so it wasn't till the next morning but in Sept I asked to be first on the list and they will get me up the same day. If possible you need to go on little walks round the corridors several times a day to get mobilised quickly. I think I could have coped on my own but it would have been difficult. I would buy a walking frame as it is much easier to use in the kitchen than crutches. You can tie a bag to it for carrying things . I was down to one stick after about 3 weeks.
We live in the same part of East Sussex so I'm curious as to which private hospital you were referred to. I was several times referred to the Esperance in Eastbourne as an NHS patient before it closed down. Last time I had to go privately to the Montefiore in Brighton.
The Horder Centre. When the appointments person rang me she said I could get an appointment there more quickly than at the DGH. Crowborough is quite a distance but worth it for me. It is very nice and the consultant I'm seeing seems top notch.
I did not know that the Horder centre was private for surgery as I've been offered appointments there I as an NHS patient to see consultants but turned them down as I don't drive and it is very difficult by bus. They then offer me an appointment at Wartling Road (Eastbourne) which is just a short taxi ride away. Last time they offered me an appointment at Seaford and changed it to Wartling Road
Some years ago, before I got rid of the pest, I experimented with ginger root. Having conducted three measurements of platelet function using aspirin, ginger root, and nothing. Ginger root, taken daily, had about 60% efficacy, compared to 100 mg Aspirin.
Sorry, I do not have the actual figures any more. One would need to experiment. Of course, an open-minded doctor would help very much. Blood clotting is vital, so you need to trot carefully.
Thank you, Globe-J. I love the clinical approach! I’m curious as to how you got your data? Clinical Lab work vs home lab of some sort? For a long time, I was using a daily dose of aspirin, with the (reluctant) consent of my cardiologist. I stopped the aspirin and shifted to occasional doses of Celebrex when the sciatica decided to announce itself.
It seem that you are interested in the possible benefit of taking aspirin daily - a prophylaxis, as I have done.
“Aspirin reduces the clumping action of platelets” By Mayo Clinic Staff
This anticlotting action is quantifiable, no blind faith is required. My GP had no problem finding a laboratory to do the test. Ginger exhibits similar anticlotting properties, albeit one needs to take a fair size root daily. I travel, so aspirin is a lazy way out. Since you reminded me, once settled, I should go back to ginger.
Getting rid of the pest. After researching the issue, I decided to chose the approach most likely to succeed. I.e. the maze procedure, via an open heart surgery. I think that I was the first person in Australia to do so, since I had no other heart problems. So far so good, over four years without AF and no drugs. Regrets I have none, even though the surgery is highly invasive, not to be taken lightly.
Keep looking J, I am sure you will find a solution.
The problem for me Jf is that prescription medications such as those available for anticoagulation have been tested and trialled extensively under appropriate conditions, whereas naturally-occurring substances such as turmeric rely on anecdotal evidence.
Also, if any substance is to replace a prescription drug, then it must have similar properties, effects and side effects as the tested drug, so there doesn't seem to be much point in risking an untested one.
Hi Finvola, thanks very much for your response. I do get your logic. Part of me realizes that if turmeric was proven efficacious it’d be widely used. However, the cynical part of me, having been a business exec for a long time, thinks that there’s no proof because there’s no profit in getting to that proof. I’m feeling a bit stuck, because afib management and arthritis management aren’t proving to be very harmonious.Take good care!
John
You can try to calculate what is your real risk of a stroke. A figure which is very difficult to find is the percentage of strokes per year with anticoagulants and without. My cardiologist said the risk is 3,5% per year. An usual anticoagulant is said to reduce it by 60%.
Having already had an A/F induced stroke I would say coming off any form of anti coags was taking a risk of further stroke. Before the stroke I used to take prescribed 375mg of soluble Asprin a day.
Dear opal11uk, sincerely wish you the best in your recovery. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I’m realizing that I’m gambling where I probably shouldn’t, given the consequences.
Hi CDreamer, Many thanks for tour comments. If I may, I’m not clear on why that is the case. A quick search produced this comparison:
“There are two classes of antithrombotic drugs: anticoagulants and antiplatelet drugs. Anticoagulants slow down clotting, thereby reducing fibrin formation and preventing clots from forming and growing. Antiplatelet agents prevent platelets from clumping and also prevent clots from forming and growing.
Fibrin is the more important component of clots that form in veins, and platelets are the more important component of clots that form in arteries where they can cause heart attacks and strokes by blocking the flow of blood in the heart and brain, respectively, although fibrin plays an important role in arterial thrombosis as well.”
So why aren’t antiplatelet drugs such as aspirin suitable for afib related clots if they inhibit platelet clumping as well as clots forming,? What am I missing?
The research specific to AF where clots form in the atrial appendage can go straight into the arterial system to brain - causing stroke. Very different to DVT’s which form from blood pooling in the legs. Strokes from AF related clots are more deadly & more serious. Modern anticoagulants- DOACS - work on slowing down Factor X whereas Wafarin is a Vit K antagonist - works on a completely different part of clotting process.
Off the top of my head I can’t give you the precise science but suggest you research further specific to AF.
Antiplatelets prevent platelets from ‘sticking’ together - very useful after certain events such as stroke/heart attack and essential as a prophylactic for some people who have valve replacements.
It seems generally speaking that only in US is asprin still advised for AF, certainly the campaigns of the AFA have made sure it is very unlikely for Asprin to be recommended for stroke prevention in the UK.
I’m out at the moment but suggest you go to the AFA website & read the reports & advice.
PS - another reason anticoagulants are preferred is that the risk of bleeds from A/Cs is much lower than for Asprin which taken daily is known to cause stomach problems and bleeds. This makes the risk:benefit much lower which is one of the main considerations before taking any prophalactic treatment.
Sorry CDreamer, no offence intended, and I'm aware my post added nothing to the value of the thread. Twas merely a light-hearted leg-pull!I have read your contributions many times and your accuracy and willingness to help others have my respect, I assure you.
One thing is clear: Many of us are deliberating the issue of pharmaceutical versus natural options for the blood thinning/clotting issue. Your statement about natural alternatives gets to the heart of the issue : " there’s no proof because there’s no profit in getting to that proof." I have ZERO trust in pharmaceuticals based on having been permanently harmed by them, as have 100,000 Americans a year. In fact, my AFIB was caused by a pharmaceutical! I have recently learned from a watchdog website of companies that have either been negligent in their drug trials, or have outright committed fraud in publishing their trial results. I have mild paroxysmal AFIB and FOR NOW, I am using nattokinase. The product I use is manufactured in Japan and is recognized as the most trusted brand available. I have been to 2 cardiologists and 1 electrophysiologist, and all three within minutes of our 15 minute (!) office visit insisted I take Eliquis and Metoprolol. They all downplayed any side effects, claiming that reports of side effect problems in groups like this were exaggerated. Not one of them had ever heard of nattokinase, which has been a worldwide remedy for decades. The troubling part to me is that mainstream doctors are quite smug in their ignorance of alternatives, and become defensive when you even suggest them. As my general practitioner (an open minded chap) says " Doctors are just like car salesman who are there to sell you a car". Nattokinase does have a lot of studies behind it, some of them published on PubMed, and thousands of anecdotal reports of it's efficacy as a clot buster and blood viscosity regulator. The biggest criticism of it is a claim that you cannot know its measurement in your system. In fact there are studies showing clearly its measurable presence in your blood over a 24 hour period. And as someone here pointed out, pharmaceuticals can hardly be deemed "accurate" as proposed dosages are based on averages of body weight and gender in the population, hence they are a "one size fits all" product. There are innumerable alternative options and they deserve a deep dive into research to find out if they are efficacious. Many are not. But many have enormous potential if only we could convince researchers to pursue them. As stated before, there is no profit in doing that. I stated earlier that I am on nattokinase FOR NOW, a caveat because I may choose in the future to go to Eliquis, etc. depending on the course of my AFIB. For those who are having success on pharmaceuticals I support you totally, especially if it brings you peace of mind about your AFIB. I would love to hear from those who have chosen another course.
Hi kingst a short while ago I asked a question regarding natto on this forum and one reply was from someone who had a stroke and were taking natto at the time just something to ponder
Yes, and I take that very seriously. Two questions come to mind: (1) Was the person using a trusted, regulated brand of nattokinase and (2) Were they taking it reliably and according to directions? I am not discounting the information you have provided, but I have read that those taking Eliquis have had strokes as well, in fact one of the warnings given by the manufacturer of Eliquis is that stroke is a possible side effect! I think we are in a sea of information now that makes decisions difficult about things like medications. I keep reading as much as possible because I want the safest treatment possible.
.Keep in mind, we’re talking about risk reduction, not elimination. As RaraAvis posted earlier “A figure which is very difficult to find is the percentage of strokes per year with anticoagulants and without. My cardiologist said the risk is 3,5% per year. An usual anticoagulant is said to reduce it by 60%”. So strokes are gonna happen using anticoagulants. Perhaps the severity is different? Who knows whether the guy taking natto benefited from that even though he had a stroke.
I totally agree about sea of information it's overwhelming sometimes so given that how do we decipher which is a trusted reliable brand I take natto but it's hard for me to know if it's good or not advertising of supplements is just as smart for natural as pharmaceutical oh why oh why can't afib just clear off and leave me alone
Amen to that. And you’re absolutely right about supplements. In the US at least, it’s the wild Wild West. Most analyses I’ve seen said the content of active ingredients varies in the extreme, with some brands having none at all. So that takes me all the way back to the earliest comments, which were that at least prescription grade chemicals come with a relatively high quality index.
An excellent point about reliability of supplements. That's why I always go to sites like ConsumerLab.com or other watchdog sites who actually do chemical analyses on products and rate them according to their findings versus the manufacturer's claims. For instance a very popular magnesium supplement, ReMag, has been assigned a "Not Approved" rating due to ConsumerLab's findings of lead in the product. Another issue is that a fair number of supplements have a higher level of ingredients in them rather than lower!
I’m also a cynic when it comes to the US healthcare model. Finding good thoughtful practitioners is difficult. I’ll check out natto. I’ve heard of it before, but not in this context. Thanks for your comments.
If I may I would like to suggest that you check out LABO Nutrition VesseClear CX: Nattokinase NSK-SD 40+ Gamma Oryzanol: This product has been clinically studied more than any other Japanese nattokinase product. LABO also makes another version with elastin in it for blood vessel flexibility. One version gives you a single daily dose with peak optimum blood saturation occurring in 12 hours. The other gives it to you in two doses in order to keep the saturation level constant. Research is showing the latter is the better option. I am not recommending that you take these products because they may not be suitable for you, but for the sake of having further information about the alternatives out there I think you will find this interesting. Amazon has a lot of info on LABO products, with reviews.
I would echo BobD in saying that a Watchman or Amplatzer amulet is a good alternative to us finding anticoagulants a problem. I did not get on with Warfarin and the newer alternatives were contra indicated for me. Trouble is the cost to the NHS for Watchman or Amplatzer and I had to have my Amplatzer fitted privately.
I used to add tumeric to the milk in my cereal and to the hot milk I drank at night and also in capsule form. I did not really find any benefit from taking it.
Well seasider18, I just mentioned the same to my wife. After a month of having it in the morning. Then again, no idea what I should really expect, The knees are still bad, the sciatica is only marginally better, the afib is under control with propafenone, but lurking in the background. I’m grateful for the terrific engagement I got out of my inquiry, though!
Turmeric taken at therapeutic levels shouldn’t be taken without guidance even if you don’t have major problems like AFIB. If enough turmeric can have enough effect to prevent a stroke it is a powerful drug and you shouldn’t be self-dosing. Having had a stroke, I would not recommend fooling around. Make sure all your docs and pharmacists know so they can check for counter indications.
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