Killing PCa cells in the vortex/ wate... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Killing PCa cells in the vortex/ waterfall ?

Scout4answers profile image

Fact: Your blood circulates thru you heart every 5 minutes.

Fact: Men who exercise vigorously live longer with PCa then those who don’t exercise. All other things being equal ie: PSA, GS scores etc.

Fact?/speculation: I read somewhere that cancer cells are often killed when they go over the waterfall created by the pumping of your heart.

Fact: Exercise raises your heart rate ( I get mine up to 125 bpm, 85% of my max rate when I do high intensity exercises for short bursts.) and this creates a much more violent vortex and subsequent waterfall.

Could this be the reason that exercise is the best medicine we can use against PCa. When you turn up the pump you kill more circulating PCa cells?

IMHO

My Grand daughter and I did waterfall paintings in Bob Ross style last year

61 Replies

So very very very very interesting.

Scout4answers profile image
Scout4answers in reply to cesces

Insight while pumping Iron 😎

Another possibility. Thanks.

We know exercise improves insulin sensitivity. This is almost certainly a good thing. Not just for PCa but for cardiac issues/diabetes/etc.

It also decreases long-term inflammation and boosts the immune system.

It increases IL-6 in the short term but reduces it long term.

It also does many other things that might reduce cancer progression.

It helps prevent cachexia, bone degeneration, and metabolic syndrome. All of these are prevalent with many of the standard cancer therapies (primarily ADT and associated androgen blockers/androgen synthesis inhibitors).

As you said, good incentives. And it makes me feel good and my wife likes me lean.

Hey, if your prose are to be understood and receptive, need to add evidence, in another words some form of reference with documented facts - verses from your personal findings; for example siting references that can support your opinion amongst the opinion.

If not, then this is just your "personal" opinion, and should be marked "IMHO"...

Point taken (edited) no evidence, just the wild Speculation of an exercised mind..

Note: I did do my conclusion in the form of a question not a statement.

just trying to get a discussion going

😎

Scout4answers wrote --- " ...... Exercise raises your heart rate ( I get mine up to 125 bpm, 85% of my max rate when I do high intensity exercises for short bursts.) and this creates a much more violent vortex and subsequent waterfall .... "

Soon to be 72, the current bicycling challenge I'm training for is to complete a 100 mile TT (Time Trial = individual riding with no assistance from others/anything) in 6 hours at 16.7mph moving average by September. My latest completed ride this past Wednesday was 50.05 miles

Avg Speed 16.6mi/h

Max. Speed19.2mi/h

Average Heart Rate 129bpm

Max Heart rate 156bpm

Total Elapsed Time 3:35:02

Time Moving 3:00:38

NO PRESUMPTIONS that exercise will extend my life living with 2015 dx'd GL10, had immediate Orchiectomy, Cryoablation + immunotherapy injection, current "T" <2ng/dL, will live until I die.

stick to painting

Schwah profile image
Schwah in reply to DarkEnergy

Well many studies have shown exercise to increase health generally. Just google exercise and health or exercise and cancer. It’s considered to be a fact by virtually every doctor. Do you disagree with the hypothesis that exercise extends lives ?

Schwah

I think that was me that made that analogy--of going over the waterfall---about 3 years ago.I would like to work on a new version, to add on other things I have gleaned, and make a very large landscape--but the info from 4 different disciplines have to be merged.

Nal

You could very well be the source, my poor memory may or may not be a side effect of ADT. Per Dark Energy's comment above, do you have any proof of concept besides my active imagination?

Dr. Charles J. Ryan CEO and President of Prostate Cancer Foundation--->in a panel he led with other oncologists. You will have to trust me on this one---as I took the Waterfall words you presented and what I actually said, years ago the Cancer Cells Died as they were going over Niagara Falls, thru the Heart. I requoted the words from the conference. Dr. Ryan is pretty tops in Pca Oncology.Anyway this is not a big deal, at this time--I will make it a bigger deal, if people could slow down sending me messages, and posting things that I feel I have to answer--as I have about 20 hours of work to complete the Post I am working on--It will be an original work.

Nal

Interesting post, but I was preoccupied while reading it. I kept imagining you in a Bob Ross fro and beard...

PS - Grand kids are the bomb! Mine share with me new interests, hobbies, music, technology, etc. Just can't let them know about me and their grandmother quiet yet

😉

They are the Bomb have a grand daughter coming over for the weekend. More Painting!No Fro for me but she gave me a Bob Ross chia pet for Christmas to commemorate the day.

Mmmmm maybe

I’m pretty sure you will not die from prostate cancer, but with it.

I have read MANY histories on this site of marathon runners and other avid exercises who die within a few years of contracting Pca. In fact it’s quite common in my experience

I will continue to exercise although I believe it has minimal impact on my Pca. It does have great impact my quality of life though.

I had a vitrectomy 6 weeks ago. I stopped exercise for a week. I ripped both spinati off the bone in my shoulder 8 weeks ago. Half my rotator cuff muscles Gone.Surgery and 9 months rehab await if I want. My Dr is advising against the surgery because ‘why do want to spend the last year of your life in a sling?’. I’m going to the gym in an hour. Eliptical and pull downs and squats.

Greetings from Cairns Qld. Sun is coming up. Beautiful day. Off to the Daintree rainforest today. Keep rocking fellow soldiers.

Sunrise in Cairns

jac_j_sp wrote --- " Mmmmm maybeI’m pretty sure you will not die from prostate cancer, but with it.

I have read MANY histories on this site of marathon runners and other avid exercises who die within a few years of contracting Pca. In fact it’s quite common in my experience

I will continue to exercise although I believe it has minimal impact on my Pca. It does have great impact my quality of life though ... "

To your point ---

​“We are each an experiment of one.

A unique, never-to-be repeated event.” Dr. George Sheehan - Cardiologist, Elite Runner, and due to his Met. PCa, died four days short of his 75th birthday on November 1, 1993.

georgesheehan.com/bio

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach in reply to jac_j_sp

Lov’ly Mate. G’Day

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to jac_j_sp

Wow, Daintree. Trust you had a good time there! Rainforests are my passion.

j-o-h-n profile image
j-o-h-n in reply to jac_j_sp

"My Dr is advising against the surgery because ‘why do want to spend the last year of your life in a sling?’. "

Last year? Your doc is quite a Dill...........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Sunday 06/19/2022 12:00 AM DST

jac_j_sp profile image
jac_j_sp in reply to j-o-h-n

Yeah that’s my General Practitioner. Good guy. Long recovery time from 2 complete tear’s. Imagine doing chemotherapy or radiation with a sling on for months

hansjd profile image
hansjd in reply to jac_j_sp

G’day from Darwin on a beautiful Dry season day. Love the Daintree. Enjoy 😊

jac_j_sp profile image
jac_j_sp in reply to hansjd

Would love to continue the drive to your way. It’s amazing up there.

jac_j_sp profile image
jac_j_sp in reply to jac_j_sp

Still in the Daintree. Cape Tribulation. Man it’s nice. I’m staying in a luxury cabin with absolutely no one for 100 meters. Can’t hear any human generated noise. It’s amazing. Here’s a pic of me walking to one of the few croc free creeks for a swim. Heading to Cooktown tomorrow. Home next week

Emmagem creek

I can hear the parrots squawking…

Yes, It's understood that the circulating tumor cells (CTC) gets slaughtered when passage through the heart. But not all, or 100%, the few survivors anchors or lodge in tissue, these cells are the culprit that result into metastasis cancer.

So, these cancerous prostate cells have evolved beyond the human body's rules . Really amazing, we don't grow ears in the leg, but cancer cells are ubiquitous to anatomy.

Actually, when first met my amazing Dana-Farber oncologist, he referred the cancer as third person, which was awesome. So, to be precise, the prostate cancer is not attacking me in my personal life span, but has been evolving throughout human existing...

I was going to have to take zometa but my weight lifting got my bone density to normal. It’s the miracle drug.

Schwah

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to Schwah

The personal trainer's term for that is "Form Follows Function".

Your body adapts to the demands placed upon it. When lifting the increased weight upon the skeletal system stimulates the body to deposit minerals in the bones. The small shocks transmitted through the skeletal system when running as the feet contact the surface also stimulates the body to deposit minerals in the skeletal system increasing bone density.

Think about that when getting on an elliptical.

Currumpaw

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to Schwah

Glad weight lifting works for your bones. For me it's not enough. I have to jump down from a height, landing on one foot at a time. And arrest a fall to a wall with one wrist at a time. Avoids the drugs.

j-o-h-n profile image
j-o-h-n in reply to Purple-Bike

to Purple-Bike,

Hence purple feet and wrists to match your bike...........Clever little devil....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 06/18/2022 11:51 PM DST

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to j-o-h-n

Indeed, John, feels like a mixture of purple, red and blue 😀

Purple-Bike wrote --- " ...... I have to jump down from a height, landing on one foot at a time. And arrest a fall to a wall with one wrist at a time .........

and

" Indeed, John, feels like a mixture of purple, red and blue 😀"

DANG --- I'll just stick with being adicted2cycling 'cause if I were to " ... jump down from a height ... " I'd be nothing but black, blue, red and purple all over my body. 😀

Me too. I calculated with heart rate monitor that I am in the 85% range of my max heart rate (determined by formula) for most of my rides so approx 2.5 hrs. I never end a ride out of breath though. So mt body has adapted.I do some light weights and lots of yard work and long walks when able but mostly ride like you. Don't want the extra muscle mass but do want extra bone mass. Hopefully my time off ADT will help with that.

Are you using the standard 220 minus age formula to calculate your maximum heart rate, or another method?

I am using 220-As Warren Buffett has said on many an occasion “ It is better to be generally right than to be precisely wrong.”

Warren Buffett is out of shape 😀

No argument with the saying really. But don’t be afraid to adjust that if your fitness is on the upward trajectory you report. 220-age is very conservative. Karvonen method is probably better for instance.

Of course, you need not be either generally right OR precisely wrong, as I’m sure you know there are more accurate methods to determine your limits. No need for it-I’m only saying that 220-age is a really low bar for most, unless you’re in poor condition.

Very true. As early as 1962, the first study showed that tumors grow more slowly in mice that have wheels in their cages and therefore "exercise" a lot.Exercise affects the hormone release and lowers the levels of hormones in the blood. Since hormones can stimulate the growth of cancer cells it may be one of the underlying mechanisms behind the better prognosis in those who are physically active. Exercise also activates the immune system that works against the tumor, another contributing factor. IMHO

maley2711 profile image
maley2711 in reply to Gemlin_

If, as claimed, a certain amount of exercise reduces cancer deaths, I find your idea more plausible than the waterfall speculation....

Thankd for the encouragement . Is most of your day excercise?

I hope you are right about those short bursts. I go to the gym twice a week and get my HR up to 144. The rest of the week is working on my sawmill, garden and e-biking. Just passed 2000 miles. Hope to get out today on the bike but it's 47deg.

Thank you. I really appreciate this. Why do you call it "waterfall"?

I am skeptical that passage through the heart actually kills a significant number of cells. All of your blood cells seem to make it through every 5 minutes or so. Still it is a lovely if not literal metaphor for exercise diminishing the cancer. So don’t want to rain on your waterfall.Actually, the first thing I thought of are the “Waterfall plots” often used to display clinical trial results. They show each individual vs a time plot to failure (such as death for OS). In which case you do not want to go over the waterfall. Rather stay in the lake! So keep swimming, or pedaling. 😆🚲

It is a good attempt at an explanation but not scientifically relevant. Exercise impacts immunity probably. Don't have any evidence that it reduces cancer. As others have said makes one feel better.

All the reports I hear now say to exercise and life will be better for you. Simple and enough.

Hey Scout4!

I would think that it isn't only the circulation but with some exercises such as heavy deadlifts where when one finishes a set of 10 to 12 reps one is gasping for air at least a minute and it takes at least 5 minutes to recover before another set can be done.

My theory on that is that in addition to the increased circulation, the pressure placed on organs also helps to flush out wastes more efficiently.

Full range, high rep, breathing squats are another exercise that fits into this category.

I have done many LIVE O2 sessions with a two-minute warmup to get my heart rate above 100 bpm, cycling on a LifeFitness bike with the resistance set at 8. The session lasts 21 minutes, two minutes at 99% O2 at which time one does a "burst" on the cycle taking it as high a rpm as possible, (I would just touch the mid 160 rpm's), as the switch controlling the O2 level coming into the respirator is switched to 15% O2. I kept the bike's rpm at around 120 unless doing a "burst" which would be done again whenever changing the O2 level. The pulse/ox on my finger would indicate that my best O2 deficits would read in the low to mid 70's. You would think the warmup, the 21 minutes in the 7 cycles of high to low and the maybe 5 minute cool down would leave one exhausted. At the end of the cool down period I felt more energized than I had before the LIVE 02 session! Go figure? My tissue would be so flushed with O2 that I had a "rosy" look. After several people that know me had commented on my "color" even hours after the session ended I realized just how much O2 was flooding and being absorbed by my tissue. There was a scale in the room. I wore a heavy cotton T-shirt and regular poly athletic shorts. I would have lost at least a pound when I got off the bike. I would still be sweating for about ten minutes after the session ended until my body reached homeostasis and my internal temperature stabilized.

If one can lift barbells that is the best. The Cybex and Hammer Strength machines are very good and there are other top brands as well but nothing works one's body like stabilizing a bar while lifting it.

I came across a YouTube video on Aneta Florczyk training. She was doing what is known as, the "Axel Clean & Jerk". On a rainy Sunday morning in May of 2010 I was at the local Gym Source. I told the manager about the video. He pulled it up and looked at it. I said that I could do that, with more weight, maintain control of the bar and maybe press it for the nearly 13 reps. We put 150 on a Hampton power bar. I strictly overhead pressed the bar 8X before push pressing and finally jerking it overhead to stay within the allotted time. I had intended to open a gym and that year before my diagnosis and I spent about $18,000 at Gym Source.

There was no way I could drop the bar in the local Gym Source as Florczyk did in the video but just try doing that 13X. Cleaning the weight each time sucks a lot of energy out of anybody. You have to complete the sequence in 75 seconds or less. Doing a multi-joint lift such as cleans to overhead presses, to push pressing and finally jerking the bar overhead really gets blood circulating and pressure on the organs helping --maybe--to flush out waste.

One should use a weight that can be easily lifted until one has the proper form down and muscles, ligaments and tendons toned. Then one can get a little aggressive.

Aneta Florczyk --

youtu.be/GRv16onWAEk

When I run --if I do--at the end of the jog/run thing--I like to do a series of about ten, 100 yard all out runs with a little rest between--just a little--the HIIT thing. I prefer running barefoot on grass. Each toe and the joints in feet get to work independently when running barefoot.

Currumpaw

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to Currumpaw

Oh man now we’re talking about what we did 12 years ago. It usually comes to this. Old men will be boys…😀

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to London441

A certain Bruce Springsteen song come to mind lol.

But in his defense I think he' just trying to relate with his fellow lifting compadres.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to CAMPSOUPS

All in good fun. One of my favorite old TV commercials (for beer or whatever) showed some early 20’s bros hanging out, with one telling the story of when he kicked the field goal that won the big game for his high school team. Some grainy video appears to depict the scene. The field goal is about the distance of a extra point. Then they are shown again, older, with 1980 or something on the bottom of the screen and he’s retelling the story only this time it was raining and a 40 yarder. Next time they’re middle aged and it’s 1995 or something. Now he describes it as 55 yards in a snowstorm.

Nostalgia is beautiful.

A few years ago I complained to a fellow senior league baseball player that I can still handle backhand grounders cleanly but not always like I used to. He said, ‘yeah and you used to be able to hang a wet towel on your dick too.’

Now there’s something I definitely can’t do anymore 🤔

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to London441

I have size 12 shoes/feet.Years ago Cindy Crawford was on a late night talk show and the host asked her a intimate question about Dennis Rodman who she was dating: She smirked and said "sometimes big feet just mean big feet".

I totally fit that bill lol.

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to CAMPSOUPS

I won't need your defense. I am not "trying to relate". I am able to communicate my thoughts, instructions or intent without anyone's help. If anyone has trouble understanding me, I will be willing to extrapolate that which I have written without being extraneous.

Currumpaw

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to Currumpaw

Jeeeez man. Sorry, sorry, sorry sorry.Didnt mean to piss you off and wake up the antagonist in you. Quite the opposite.

Excuse me while I go off and shoot myself!

Didnt know I was such an ass.

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to London441

Well, London441, I can still do 30 full range reps, ATG, breathing back squats with 140 on the bar. The weight has been lowered due to irreversible damage to a SI ligament from fluoros--and shoulders.

My only problem is the fluoroquinolone drugs used by one of my uros. He wasn't satisfied with six, 500 mg Cipro pills to be taken two the day before a procedure, two the day of and two the day after but also had the nurse give me what she termed a "humungous" intramuscular shot of Levaquin as well. If that wasn't enough--a maybe 7-day course of Levaquin pills.

Currumpaw

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to Currumpaw

You’re the man! Currently! I knew I could get a more up to date brag from ya!

Seriously that’s great.

I can still do 27 full hang pullups. But please don’t tell anyone. Used to be 32😀

j-o-h-n profile image
j-o-h-n in reply to Currumpaw

Running through the grass is great for your paws.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Sunday 06/19/2022 12:04 AM DST

Nah. I get enough excercise justpushing my luck!

Coupla things to think about while drinking:

The inventor of the treadmill died at the age of 54.

The inventor of gymnastics died at the age of 57.

The world bodybuilding champion died at the age of 41.

The best soccer player in the world, Maradona, died at the age of 60.

And then...

KFC inventor died at 90.

Inventor of Nutella brand died at the age of 88.

Cigarette maker Winston died at the age of 102.

The inventor of opium died at the age of 116 - in an earthquake.

Hennessy cognac, Irish inventor, died at 98.

HOW did doctors come to the conclusion that exercise prolongs life????

The rabbit is always jumping, but it lives for only 2 years.

The turtle that doesn't exercise at all, lives 200 years.

So follow my advice,

Take a nap ...

And when you wake up, have some bacon and eggs.

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to Cancer2x

The turtle thing?

I have an ex that wanted a tortoise. Life span of a pet tortoise is between 50 and 100 years. Within a year we noticed that it was taking a long nap. Then we figured that the turtle had bad genetics and had rolled a 7.

Some mechanics that changed brakes and used compressed air to blow off asbestos debris from the backing plates lived long, full lives. A young man that died of mesothelioma was found to have inhaled ONE fiber of asbestos that the cancer grew around. This from material in a course to certify one to work in asbestos abatement.

The sport of bodybuilding is noted for early deaths. One of which lived not far from me and was a friend of a friend. His life and death made the front page of one the sections of the Sunday paper. Thousands attended his calling hours and funeral.

I missed the family get togethers last Thanksgiving and Christmas because the COVID spike here in Rhode Island. maybe I'll buy a bottle of some of fine wines from the Newport, Portsmouth vineyards and reflect on these things as you suggested. Haa! Why not?

Currumpaw

Haniff profile image
Haniff in reply to Cancer2x

Well said, brother :)

If the waterfall kills PCa cells, why would this not kill benign cells also? FTM, why wouldn’t it kill pretty much any and all cells that go thru the heart?

Right, going all-out is the way to exercise. The front squat, deadlift and jerk press bring out the best in me. Surrounded by mainly young guys rarely is anybody panting like me.

For HIIT I do 20-second bursts, keeping up a defined rpm level with the last few seconds of each burst being insanely intense, pure willpower to keep up. Aiming for shorter recovery periods, not sure what the optimum is.

Paint by numbers?

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Sunday 06/19/2022 12:03 AM DST

Thank you for motivating me to start exercising again. I fell off the wagon a while back when I was working long hours.

So glad to hear that Captain Dave

My whole purpose is to do exactly that, motivate guys to exercise more.

I have decided that my most important objective every day is to exercise. Get it Done.

I do it like my life depends on it. I believe it does.

My RO, who is in his 70's, graduate of Columbia, residency at Dartmouth, fellowship at Arthur Anderson, & on the America’s Best Doctors list every year since 1997 claims that exercise is vital to fighting cancer. He treats many PCa & Breast Cancer patients.

Like he says, he has no definitive proof other than observing his patients!

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