To jdm3: I think the egg thing has been... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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To jdm3

Nalakrats profile image

I think the egg thing has been really beaten up since my 1st year as a Food Chemist in late 1964. I have seen the pendulum swing from good for you to bad for you, probably a dozen times. Behind every change was a research paper and someone was making money.

So if you are worried about Choline in Eggs--->then start worrying about Choline in the following:

*Lima Beans

*Soybeans

*Chickpeas

*Herring

*Mung Beans

*Salmon

*Tuna

*Organ Meat.

You know they are making foods from Algae, and other Plant substances to replace our Burgers, and Chicken Patties. I remember when surimi was the hot replacement. My lab made Surimi Hot Dogs--we showed them at a Technology Show in 1985--and the word got around that we were providing the best tasting hot dogs for free. Little did they know they ate fish! We gave out thousands!

Nalakrats

50 Replies

Eggs high in Leucine (bad) and growth factors. Recently linked to Breast Canceras well. IMO stay away (once a month).

Doug

Interesting life of a food chemist, Nal.Did the fish hot dogs go over well with the Tech folks? Evidently yes, 1,000 sold. Never ever thought about eggs would get a bad name distinction. In moderation all food.

Interesting. Thanks.I try not to worry about anything too much. It's bad for my health 😉. But I do try to avoid choline in egg yolks and organ meats, etc... since the data are ambiguous or, at best, suggest choline intake should be minimized. That being said, I do eat salmon and chickpeas so your point is well taken.

Same can be said for glutamine and leucine in egg whites. I do eat egg whites occasionally, but if I was consistent in my nutritional rationale and selectivity, I should probably avoid those too.

Schwah profile image
Schwah in reply to jdm3

Oh no. I eat egg whites 5 days a week as egg whites vegetable omelettes. Now that’s bad too?

Frustrated
Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to Schwah

No, they are not, and neither are the Yokes-- but, I do not remember in Leviticus that before eating eggs that we must separate the Yoke from the Whites. If God thought it would add health or be protective to us Humans He would have said so!

Nal

Darn. I am doing a 90% plant based diet and eat a lot of garbanzo beans, soy beans derived including toasted like I was eating peanuts. Just goes to show Choline can't easily be avoided. Everything in balance. It's important part of diet. I believe a study on eggs showed higher incidence of PCa only at more than an average of 2 a day. I think they also have shown affect on LDL is minimal below that threshold. But they have gotten a bad rap. It may be wise to just not go crazy on things on Nalakrats list or the top 4 or 5 on the list here.

ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/C...

jdm3 profile image
jdm3 in reply to jazj

I agree. A plant based diet with moderation of some of these "riskier" foods is probably the best, but I still eat and enjoy some of these foods without worrying about it. And, after all, the body does need essential choline to function.I am about 90% plant based too, but added fish (mainly salmon and sardines for protein) enjoy occasional ice cream and BBQ 😎🥦

maley2711 profile image
maley2711 in reply to jdm3

what exactly is wrong with meats as protein source...don't we have teeth made for that protein source? are there significant studies showing a significantly longer cancer-free life for those who eat little or no meat? and studies showing avoidance of meat aftercancer diagnosis will prolong life?

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to maley2711

Well put---the sillies out there can write papers, somehow get published and that which is made of Whole Cloth becomes the preferred eating method for the day--until the next one comes around.

Nal

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to jdm3

Hope your BBQ is slow cooked/smoked Brisket. Us folks that keep Kosher according to the Word do not BBQ Pork!

Nal

I read some bad things about eggs, too. I eat one almost every morning anyway. (moderation) along with staying as active as possible when I'm able with extra fruits (berries) and fresh veggies daily. Interesting career... 🙏

Protein is bad for PCa. Fat is bad for PCa. Carbs are bad for PCa. I can give you thousands of studies if you need "proof".

My conclusion: drink and drink big. It's the only safe source of calories.

Teufelshunde profile image
Teufelshunde in reply to RSH1

I think Vodka is the perfect food. No carbs, no choline, no protein, gluten free.

And you can use it as a disinfectant!

Nal

Gabby643 profile image
Gabby643 in reply to Nalakrats

Great in the gas tank and destroys foot fungus too !

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to Gabby643

It perfectly, completely cleans red wine out of the carpet!

Boom. It disinfects your body inside and out. Probably the cure for cancer and all other ailments. Also makes you taller and bullet proof.

Replying to myself: let's take the road trip to Butter. Back in 1955 Unilever-->at its Research Headquarters in London--came up with the first viable--->that means it could be commercially made Margarine to replace butter. Going back decades other individuals and small companies had attempted these butter substitutes, but it took a company like Unilever which in the '50s and '60s was either the largest or second largest food company in the world. Nestles and Unilever always vied for the top spot. It took a while but after research papers were developed that explained how butter was bad for you. Around 1964-5 Margaine entered the marketplace in the USA as a butter substitute that was much more healthy, based on the margarine having no Saturated Fats. Many of us Food Scientists/Chemists laughed at this--but the promotions/and couponing and advertising took butter to task, and was outselling butter at one time, for many years.

Now when Medical Science and investigations began-->there was a trend that was graphable, that started to occur about a year after Margarine was introduced in the USA. And this trend continued into the early 2,000s. This trend line that followed exactly the trend line of Margarine sales concerning the increase in Heart Attacks/Heart Disease.

Well, what we food scientists discovered was that the Partially Hydrogenated Fats---now called Trans Fats--did not exist in nature. Only Unsaturated and Saturated exist in Nature.

Thus Trans Fats were basically a new chemical we were introducing into our bodies--it was not a food-->it was a new chemical that was being consumed in large quantities. The Human Body did not recognize the Trans Fats as food--and tried to eliminate it. Also in the trend lines, we had found that Breast cancer seemed to follow the same trend line as Heart Disease. And was literally proven when autopsies of women who died of Breast Cancer showed large pockets of Trans fats in the Breast Tissue of the dead women.

So all those research papers that were part of the scam to ostracize butter--->were BS promotions to support a new industry Margarine.

Those of you who are not Torah Readers or Scholars--I can tell you, that God, outlines in Leviticus the foods that are appropriate to eat--and eggs and butter are not excluded. And if they were not good for us God would have said so. So both of these are Kosher for all to consume. We are told what not to eat--and that list is long!

Nalakrats

Amen ,who could argue with GOD...

Certainly not me--I am Prayerfully Grateful He has kept me around.

Nal

I eat 12-18 eggs a week, more when I was younger and bodybuilding. Did they cause my mPCA, probably not. What may have though is all the processed food I consumed as a child and continued to do so as an adult, you can’t undo a lifetime of that. My grandparents lived into their late 80’s. No processed food for them. Everything was fried in a skillet with lard, that skillet never saw dish soap or water. Always sitting on top the stove. Always real butter and whole milk. They never had heart disease. So this is where we are, we put chemicals in our bodies that are added to the food we eat, not to mention all the herbicides and pesticides.

Hail to the King!

Nal

jdm3 profile image
jdm3 in reply to KingNeptune

Yeah. Me too. Cumulative effect of bad eating over many years, stress (inflammation), and maybe some genetic predisposition. In the Blue Zones around the world (think Okinawa) the elders are outliving the youngsters.... because the elders never had McDonalds and Mountain Dew growing up.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to jdm3

There is a commune in Italy famous for its longevity. They have the most 100-year-old men and women in their communal living that live to past 100. This is old stuff from 30 years ago, but I never forgot it. A group of so-called Medical Researchers went to this commune to try to determine what their secret was for this incredible longevity.The people were poked and observed---they ate no special diet--and indulged in their traditional foods, that they had consumed for Generations. They had no heart disease or cancer. The average age at death was 98, with some living past 110.

The bloodwork astounded the researchers---the only thing that was out of whack in the blood work is that the Total Cholesterol average for the Commune was 445.

Now if you go to a Doctor and have a 445 Cholesterol---you are going to be on a high-dose Statin. So I asked why was there no heart disease. Was the High Cholesterol Protective---there was no separation of HDL and LDL, at that time. But my guess would be based on what today continues--but may be faulty science--that their HDL, may have been very high. Go figure-->do we have another Drug Class grown up under inexact science. I remember when total Cholesterol at 240 was the upper end of normal, and today from the pressure of Big Pharms--is now 200. [More Statin Sales you think?]

Nal

My nana's (grandmother) eggs in the cast iron skillet were always the best. Always had that jar of lard, bacon grease and food grits next to the stove.Monsanto, Cargill, Hormel and other corporate entities didnt control food production back then.

She passed at 86 yrs old in hospital (had scarlet fever as a child and her heart was affected).

Grandfather passed at 93 in bed.

Godspeed to you. Grits with butter and black pepper, my fav and there was nothing better than grandma’s cooking.

I use Red Pepper on my Grits, as consuming high volumes of Foods with high Scoville units is anti-cancer.

Nal

Awesome! We put out 50 different varieties of hot peppers every year. She’s Hungarian and I didn’t know what hot peppers were until I meant her 36 years ago. I still can’t hang with her on the heat factor, but I’ve gotten better.

Every Day I have hot somethings!

Nal

Sunlight12 profile image
Sunlight12 in reply to Nalakrats

Fascinating as always, Nal! I have read that story elsewhere in another form. Nice to see it corroborated by someone with inside knowledge. I always enjoy your postings! Always learn something too!

Best wishes!!

-Sunlight

*the Margarine story - although the Cholesterol one is awesome too!

The paradox of choline is that deficiency is rare (it's hard to avoid), yet many in the U.S. do not get the recommended daily amount (550 mg for men.) Assuming that an egg supplies 150-175 mg, one would still need hefty portions of a menu drawn from the above list to go above 550 mg - liver excluded.

As with many older guys, I don't eat the way I used to. I doubt that I have eaten half of my choline requirement today. Perhaps I'll have eggs for breakfast tomorrow.

Choline IMO is not a real cause for concern. If we restrict intake we risk liver damage. It's an important nutrient.

-Patrick

LearnAll profile image
LearnAll in reply to pjoshea13

There is no day when I do not eat a big bowl of Mung bean soup or Chickpea soup or Green pea soup. I never worried about choline.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to LearnAll

Amen!

Gabby643 profile image
Gabby643 in reply to LearnAll

Home made organic split pea soup, Yeah!

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to Gabby643

Stir fried mung bean sprouts with curry powder.

Sorry to be the party pooper here, but the papers I've read gave me pause to reconsider eating an egg every day, and cut back to 2x/week... although the egg yolk is very nutritious and lutein helps prevent macular degeneration, the association of choline with metastatic and recurrent PCa seems to be a repeated in several studies... to each his own...

Eggs/choline

Few studies have examined whether egg consumption is associated with risk of prostate cancer or outcomes after prostate cancer diagnosis. A recent meta-analysis suggested no association with risk of prostate cancer (overall or prostate cancer-specific mortality) [16]. In the HPFS, men who consumed ≥2.5 eggs per week had a 1.8-fold increased risk of developing lethal prostate cancer compared with men who consumed <0.5 eggs per week [17]. That study also found no association between post-diagnostic consumption of eggs and risk of lethal prostate cancer. In contrast, in CaPSURE™, men who consumed the most eggs after prostate cancer diagnosis (~5.5 eggs per week) had a twofold increased risk of prostate cancer recurrence compared with men who consumed the least eggs (<0.5 eggs per week) [18]. However, this study did not have data on egg intake prior to diagnosis, and thus, it is possible that the increased risk observed reflected the men’s egg consumption before diagnosis.

Eggs may increase risk of aggressive prostate cancer due to their choline content. One study found that men with the highest choline intake (~500 mg/day) had a 70 % increased risk of incident lethal prostate cancer compared with men with the lowest intake (~300 mg/day) [19]. A Swedish study also reported that men with the highest plasma levels of choline had a 46 % increased risk of prostate cancer compared with men with the lowest levels [20].

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to timotur

You have truly consumed the Koolade! I will not respond in great detail. You are not a Party Pooper, but maybe one who needs to follow some line to justify why you obtained Pca, or why you cannot beat it as of now! And need some relativistic articles by Men/Women with grand titles, after their name--who are neither Food Chemists--Food Scientists--And Degreed Diet and Nutrition Experts, that have 55 years of Naturopathy. I one time found a Paper that Blamed drinking Spring Water, that there might be certain minerals that can cause cancer.

Nal

‘The egg thing has been really beaten up’

I like what you did there. As I suspected, all these years the egg thing has been beaten along with the actual eggs. You can’t beat that.

I just hope the egg thing doesn’t become a dead horse, it’s no fun beating those.😀

Guys - you have got to remember our disease was not caused by a single item of a particular food. It was caused by hundreds of thousands of varying interactions over our entire lifetime - avoiding a few different foodstuffs is not going to make one bit of difference either way. Everything in moderation is a far better motto for living life to the full. AND lots of exercise.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to clayfin

Yes Sir! Amazing Logic!

Nal

jdm3 profile image
jdm3 in reply to clayfin

No doubt there are many factors much more significant than eating eggs or soy that lead to PCa - such as stress, hormone imbalance, cholesterol, inflammation, genetics, etc.. but to the extent that we can eat healthy, exercise, take beneficial supplements, etc... in addition to SOC, I believe we might be able to tilt the scales in our favor a little. I don't have the intellect or bandwidth to do a deep dive on all the supplements and foods to take or avoid, but try to moderate and/or minimize my intake of the stuff that might be, just maybe, more harmful. The flip side is that I try to increase my intake of the foods and supplements that might be more beneficial. I also exercise a lot (very important as you noted) and generally just try to be more zen about life instead of the stressed-out and overworked guy I used to be. All of the little things that we can control might add up just enough to tilt the scales towards longer survival, quality of life, and better overall health.

I'm not eating anymore, I'm not drinking anymore AND I'm not gonna breathe anymore starting right NOW!!!!

Sorry to hear that. One cannot live on Cake alone as one famous Beheaded French Lady once espoused.

Nal

OOPS, my bad. Had to eat + drink + breathe ONCE AGAIN 'cause I just bicycled another 55 miles and I have a 100 mile FULL MOON + Total Lunar Eclipse tomorrow that I forgot I will be bicycling while it happens. 😀 Will have to wait a bit to start the STOPS!!!! 😜

Sitting here smiling about this thread and the comments made. Nal sure stirred the kaka on this one. :)

Choline is an essential nutrient that is found in many foods. Your brain and nervous system need it to regulate memory, mood, muscle control, and other functions. You also need choline to form the membranes that surround your body’s cells. Think of it as strengthening your cell walls. Most of the choline in your body comes from the food you eat. Too little and one ends up with problems like a fatty liver and brain fog. Primary sources red meat, egg yolk, fish, dairy products, cruciferous vegetables, etc. all the food that your grandfathers and their grandfathers through time produced in an agrarian society. Yet, like anything we eat, too much or too little is bad, producing unhealthy risks.

My family tried margarine once about 1964. Back to butter. In the ‘80s some researcher wrote that the bark on a Texas style brisket -smoked over post oak for six hours and then wrapped in paper for 8-10 hours reaching an internal temperature of 205 degrees.... caused cancer.

Looking at the “food commandments” in the Torah, the obvious, like the Koran, is pork. Two major reasons, worms (trichinosis) and lack of refrigeration... a common sense approach.

Anyway, the most common complaint on this board is brain fog. Is this attributed to side effects of ADT and chemotherapy or simply a lack of choline is one’s diet? Antidotal or not, I experienced very little brain fog as I listened to my body and rested when it told me it was tired and stressed. My research Oncologist and Cardiologist both said to eat normal to help mend your body, you need the nutrients.

Gourd Dancer

Always good to hear from you, as you always make sense!

Nal

The secret to eating eggs:

Boil them until they're hard boiled. Let them cool off and swallow them whole (no chewing).....Oops, almost forgot to mention, peel them before swallowing......

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 05/14/2022 1:06 PM DST

2 poached eggs on whole grain toast with butter. Now that’s a breakfast that I can eat no matter how I feel or what I need to do and it keeps me full til lunch!

The pendulum can keep swinging, I’ll keep eating my eggs 😎

Hugh

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to Aodh

You Betcha!

Nal

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