Blood clots from Cancer

[JaMaArky]

I understand having Cancer can predispose one to thickened blood....and blood clots....and having strokes. My husband was diagnosed with stage 4 prostate cancer...and bone cancer in several places in July.....and, last week had a stroke too. Doctors put him on PLAVIX to thin his blood to prevent any further strokes. But since the right side of his body is terribly weakened now and speech is affected too.... sort of feel like we've shut the barn door AFTER the horse has gotten out! Just wondering how many of you are on blood thinners preventatively?

[LearnAll]

You are totally right in saying that cancer increases tendency for blood clots and in some people a clot can break off and go and lodge in one of the organs. If it lodges in brain..result is stroke...if it lodges in heart..result is heart attack. Using a blood thinner is not recommended in every cancer patient. However, in your husbands case, it seems logical as the stroke event clearly indicate that he has high risk of clotting.

I do not use any prescribed med for prevention of clotting but use natural substances daily to keep blood thin. These are Turmeric, Ginger, Garlic ,Onions and Nattokinase.

My labs indicate that blood is normal and thin enough to prevent blood clotting. The blood tests to monitor blood thickness are prothrombin time (PT), APTT and INR.

[lewicki in reply to LearnAll]

Having had blood clots from biopsy of the lymph's is it then easier if you have had a blood clot to get them again and should be avoided?

[pjoshea13]

I have posted numerous times about abnormal coagulation caused by cancer. I wish I had known more about the subject 17 years ago - I might have avoided a double DVT & 3 months of Warfarin.

Your barn door simile is apt. However, the reason is logical, in that doctors have no safe prophylactic treatments for those at risk - & so they don't even test. Once there has been a clotting event, the 'unsafe' drugs are deemed essential.

But there is a test that can put one's mind at rest - D-dimer. If D-dimer is zero, there are no clot break-down products. Elevated D-dimer means that there may be an active clot. One should assume that there is a clot & use nattokinase to spead up the clearance. Don't assume that one 2,000 FU cap will dissolve a clot faster than it is accumulating.

Most people think of clots in terms of "thick" & "thin" blood, but that's not correct. There are many coagulation factors involved in clotting & cancer will dysregulate the system. The anti-coagulation drugs also dysregulate the system so that it takes longer to form a clot. The drugs do not dissolve an existing clot, or thin the blood.

PLAVIX is different to drugs that target one or more coagulation factors - it inhibits platelet activation. [Low-dose aspirin also targets platelet aggregation.] The other drugs delay the accumulation of fibrin at the clot site.

In time (perhaps months) the enzyme plasmin will break down the unwanted fibrin accumulation. Nattokinase is like a super-plasmin.

I know that none of the above is much use to your husband, but I'm hoping that others reading this will take steps to avoid a similar fate.

I hope he makes a speedy recovery.

Best, -Patrick

[LearnAll in reply to pjoshea13]

You have described coagulation process in scientific manner....for the sake of simplicity many people use the word "blood thinning" basically meaning decreased risk of clotting.In spite of recent backlash against low dose Aspirin, it is still a very valuable medicine to prevent platelet aggregation. A very small dose like 81 mg one or 2 times a week can be sufficient.

To top it up, a regular daily use of Nattokinase+Serrapeptase (4000FU) can be advantageous for many men. (this is not a prescription..just an opinion)

[lewicki in reply to pjoshea13]

If you have had clots in the brain caused by biopsy while on baby aspirin should a biopsy of tumor in the prostate be avoided ?

[pjoshea13 in reply to lewicki]

I'm not aware of any general concern about the risk of clots following biopsy. Presumably it's rare? I don't know enough about the topic to answer.

-Patrick

[lewicki in reply to pjoshea13]

Thanks for the reply.

[cigafred in reply to pjoshea13]

Any thoughts on how the blood chemistry which you so well describe interacts with aminocaproic acid which, as I recently posted, was used to stop my six weeks of gross hematuria [a result of poorly-done salvage radiation affecting my bladder)? Is there a contradiction between taking Nattokinase and the aminocaproic acid treatment, or is there possibly a work-around?. "Aminocaproic acid works as an antifibrinolytic. It is a derivative of the amino acid lysine. The fibrinolysis-inhibitory effects of aminocaproic acid appear to be exerted principally via inhibition of plasminogen activators and to a lesser degree through antiplasmin activity.

Aminocaproic acid binds reversibly to the kringle domain of plasminogen and blocks the binding of plasminogen to fibrin and its activation to plasmin. With NO activation of plasmin, there is a reduction in fibrinolysis. This consequently will reduce the amount of bleeding post surgery." go.drugbank.com/drugs/DB00513

[pjoshea13 in reply to cigafred]

With prolonged blood in the urine I suppose that it is natural to want to inhibit plasmin, which is the body's way of clearing blood clots that have served their purpose. However, my understanding of the plasmin enzyme is that there is never much in circulation (which is why it can take many months to clear a DVT while on an anticoagilant.) Obviously, when there is bleeding, one wouldn't want the fibrin to be broken down too quickly.

If it is indeed necessary to inhibit plasmin, nattokinase will definitely be contraindicated. Nattokinase is structurally similar to plasmin, but far more effective.

I imagine that aspirin would be out of the question too, while on aminocaproic acid.

How long are you supposed to be on aminocaproic acid?

If all fibrinolytic activity is inhibited, the D-dimer test cannot be used to monitor clot activity.

Best, -Patrick

[cigafred in reply to pjoshea13]

I was on a drip for maybe eight hours, so I am hoping that now the use of Nattokinase does not restart the bleeding. Thank you.

[Hidden]

Hi there. I have been on hormone treatment for a few years, first with Firmagon then onto Zoladex and Xtandi. Last year I had a heart attack and it was suggested the hormone treatment was probably the cause. The heart attack was a STEMI which is very serious but after a stent was fitted I’m now ok. What frustrates me is there is no conferring between my oncologist and cardiologist to do with treatment and when I read that a cancer medication can be affected by a heart medication I become even more frustrated.

[Tommyemily in reply to Hidden]

Quite understand your frustration!, I have been fortunate in having my treatment directed and overseen by the Head of Urological Oncology Department of a major hospital who decided on Firmagon + Arbiraterone only after thoroughly reviewing the results of my various cardio tests and at a later date referring me to a cardio oncologist specialist for further tests (such as analysis of a 14 day halter) with whom he subsequently conferred. Last not least he directed that my radiology treatment be decided upon by the Head of Radiology at another major hospital. Simply perfect coordination for which I am very grateful.

Wishing the best and seasons greetings to all.

[Atlantic77]

What dosage of Nattokinase and Serrapeptase and what potency value of each of these supplements would you recommend? What studies inform your convictions?

[clayfin]

Perhaps Healthunlocked can have a "stickie’ section which can include the items you and pjoshea13 - and others - deem important for fellow travellers?

[kklott01]

As with most supplements, there are many sellers pushing their Natto+Serra products online. If you have been taking for nearly 20 years, what product have you been using and where do you purchase, online or reputable retail outlet?

[DenDoc]

I too forgot about the risk of a blood clot associated with a cancer diagnosis. I had a very hard fall about 6 weeks ago and injured my leg below the knee(tibia). Bled some down into my leg and was very tender. Then, without thinking I took a two hour plane ride and that week I developed swelling in my calf. It was a DVT and I am now on Xarelto for a minimum of three months and perhaps longer. I am extremely careful about fall avoidance due to my age (80) but it happens. I had been on low dose aspirin for many years but I was advised to stop 4 years ago while on Chemo. Never questioned my MO about restarting.

[j-o-h-n in reply to DenDoc]

I too have discovered the meaning of gravity... a fall can be quite grave ending in a grave.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor

j-o-h-n Tuesday 12/21/2021 7:47 PM EST

[cigafred]

Please see my question to Patrick above.

[MateoBeach]

Sorry to here this. Know that stroke symptoms in general tend to improve with time (weeks to months), and this can be aided with therapy.To add to the discussion, blood pressure needs to be optimally controlled, as do lipids often with maximum tolerated dosage of statins. Compression stockings should be worn for all long plane flights and drives. And try to get up and walk or move legs every hour if possible. Baby aspirin should probably be discussed, even twice weekly can be helpful if not at bleeding risk. An ounce of prevention. .

[Teufelshunde]

I remember reading an article and then the actual study 10-15 years ago that talked about the reduction in risk of heart attack for men that gave blood 1x year. He read the study and started recommending that to clients. I did it every 4 months pre cancer. So there was something to the blood letting of primitive medicine. I just dont think we can give blood when we have active cancer. Must be a way to do it still. Rather do this than rely on more meds.

[cigafred]

I appreciate the guidance. I fear PCa more then hematuria, so I am going to chance the Nattokinase. If the bleeding restarts, will certainly stop and have a rethink. Thank you.

[clayfin]

I know - I have spent many hours searching and reading yours and others’ contributions - for which I am extremely grateful - I guess some guys are not that computer literate and ask before looking - natural response when stressed out by our disease.

[JaMaArky]

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I will definitely do some extra research and hope to get my husband to try the Nattokinase and Serrapeptase and will also look into Lumbrokinase. It really IS so difficult to find a doctor that looks at the PATIENT and not just the lab reports. The NUMBERS may look good.....but they don't SEE the quality of life being drained from the person they are treating. 😪