Misleading info about ADT being prote... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer
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Misleading info about ADT being protective against the Covid-19 virus.

Rod98168
Rod98168

I've been reading posts by tall Allen, how androgen deprivation therapy is protective against Covid-19 virus and this is very concerning to me because nothing that he's putting out there is showing a study of proof of this being so. The reality is nobody really knows. I've included a link to a news article about the higher rate of Covid-19 death in men but it's all supposition and ideas with no clinical study showing the cause of this higher rate of death in men. We must be very careful in accepting information with no actual proof because this could be more dangerous to your health. The article says estrogen could be protective for women and that's why they're not dying at the same rate. Or, it could be that all males, even very young men are dying at higher rates, because they have higher levels of testosterone than women. But nobody really knows. Tall Allen is implying that being on ADT will protect you from Covid-19 and nothing he is referring to, is stating that this is so. He is misleading everybody and he needs to stop doing that. For all anyone knows, it could be just the opposite. Until there's actual extensive large studies proving otherwise.

latimes.com/science/story/2...

101 Replies
oldestnewest

It IS immunoprotective. Read the studies.

noahware
noahware
in reply to Tall_Allen

The point remains: the studies showing isolated cellular mechanisms that point toward something being "immunoprotective" may or may not translate into actual protection against individual viral infections.

That is why I asked in a comment under your original post if any such observational evidence existed. If castration was indeed protective in this way against certain viruses, I would think there would be some record of it being noted somewhere, by someone, over prior decades (if not centuries).

I would add that any individual's ability to resist or fight and survive certain viral infections (or any disease!) has to be a combination of many factors, including age, overall health, duration of quality (restorative) sleep, the body's ability to benefit from nutrients and exercise, psycho-social health, environmental agents, etc.

It is well-established that ADT is essentially a medically-imposed disease (hypogonadism) that, while temporarily retarding PC progression, has many negative effects on a man's health. So even if it is known that the imposition of hypogonadism is immunoprotective, it would seem to remain unknown if that benefit more than offsets any and all ADT harms in a way that yields a net protective effect against specific viral infections.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to noahware

We have learned enough from the AIDS crisis to know some of the mechanisms of our immune system. We don't have to restart from ground zero. People with robust immune systems are less susceptible to infection -- is there really any doubt?

ADT does certainly enhance the immune system's protection against viruses, bacteria, and other invasive species. I have no idea what would offset that effect.

noahware
noahware
in reply to Tall_Allen

Well again, to know some of the mechanisms of our immune system provides only a theoretical basis for any claim of specific real-world effective protection, with respect to ADT and COVID-19.

If castration in fact yields robust immune systems that give men protection against viruses, bacteria, and other invasive species, I can't imagine that there isn't some historical observation to reflect that. Without that, we are making a leap of faith (even if that leap is science-based).

That we have no idea what would offset that effect in theory does not tell us whether it is offset in practical terms in men with castrate-levels of T, when actually exposed to viruses, bacteria, and other invasive species. (Not having an idea about things is not good basis for saying they don't exist.) Without observed data, any claims should be for only the POTENTIAL for a realized benefit, and I have no problems with such claims.

No, we don't have to restart from ground zero, but we don't get to skip ahead right to One Hundred, either. (PS - That is something YOU have been helping to teach ME.)

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to noahware

You have to start with what we know. We know that the immune system protects against disease. Who would claim otherwise? I'm not claiming that a robust immune response will protect anyone from covid-19 in particular (it doesn't protect from retroviruses, for example), just that it is protective against infection in general. It is plausible, however, that it protects against covid-19 just as it protects us from other RNA viruses, like influenza. We also know that ADT has an immune-stimulatory effect. Why wouldn't we want our immune system to be in the best possible shape?

As for some other hypothetical downside to ADT that counteracts the immunity enhancement - one has to at least have a plausible hypothesis. Any hypothesis would have to deal with the fact that women are less prone to infection than men, and live longer.

In an ideal world, there would be Level 1 evidence for all sorts of things. In the real world, we have to go with what seems reasonable instead. What is important is using the highest level available data to make plausible hypotheses.

noahware
noahware
in reply to Tall_Allen

" It is plausible, however, that it protects against covid-19 "

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head with that phrasing. The tone of your post seemed more confident than merely suggesting plausibility, and the tone of many responses seemed to reflect that.

I think that's all Rod was trying to say. When he said "posts by tall Allen [on] how androgen deprivation therapy is protective against Covid-19 virus" it might have been easy to clear it up then and there by confirming you were basing your suggestions on a highly plausible hypothesis.

I would add that just because we know that ADT has an immune-stimulatory effect we can't say for sure that it puts our immune system "in the best possible shape." You can feel free to ask, "well, why wouldn't it?" but no plausible hypothesis of why it wouldn't is required for me to KNOW that you DON'T know.

Nothing is required for me to know that you don't know what you can't know. You know?

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to noahware

Please don't hold me to account for what others say about me or my posts - my posts speak for themselves. I never wrote that it ADT helps with covid-19 - I wrote that it improves immune function, and we all want our immune system in tip-top shape to fight covid-19. If you don't, good luck to you.

noahware
noahware
in reply to Tall_Allen

In your original post you said "the implications are...."

Those reading might reach one of multiple conclusions that could be drawn from your content, even though neither conclusion was explicitly stated.

One conclusion that might be drawn by a reader is "ADT perhaps COULD protect from COVID-19."

Another conclusion might be "ADT indeed WOULD protect from COVID-19."

You did not explicitly state ADT would protect from COVID-19, but you did imply it would. You also implied it could. Why not be explicit, so that only one (correct) conclusion could be reached by readers?

I am not holding you to account for what others say about you, but for the lack of clarity in your post.

ADT helps with immune function? So how does that explain why my husband got 2 stomach flu infections while on therapy for 18 mths when he had never been sick with colds or flu for years before? Oh wait...maybe it was the moratorium that MSK imposed on the vitamins that he had taken for years.

Break60
Break60
in reply to Tall_Allen

TA

I wonder if estradiol which I’ve been using as ADT for over a year provides some protection.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to Break60

Estrogen is double-edged. At low doses it is immunoprotective. At high doses, it has the opposite effect.

Break60
Break60
in reply to Tall_Allen

TA

Well I’m on .3 mg a week and not relying on estradiol for immunotherapy but for suppressing PCa which it has done.

Thanks

Bob

Yes there is lots of doubt because All immunosuppression is not the same. Patients with HIV do not get some infections more commonly than people without HIV. They get a very narrow spectrum of infections. Sometimes they can have far more extensive infection with less symptoms because most of the symptoms that we get are in fact due to the immune response. For instance the fever and swelling et cetera of tonsillitis is due to the immune response to the bacteria in the throat. It is far more complex in my view then you are stating. The fact is men who take ADT to prolong their lives from prostate cancer may or may not be at more or less risk from this new virus then the standard testosterone filled man. It is an evidence free zone and theories about whether men are safer with ADT or at higher risk with ADT are nothing but theories.

We need the data about this specific virus. It is unreasonable to generalise about the immune responses.

HIV is an RNA retrovirus that specifically attacks the immune system, which is VERY different. RNA viruses that do not attack the immune system (like coronaviruses, etc. ) are very different. For them, a robust immune response is what rids us of the virus.

cesanon
cesanon
in reply to Metungboy

"Patients with HIV do not get some infections more commonly than people without HIV. They get a very narrow spectrum of infections."

Metungboy, May I ask you what is this narrow spectrum of infections that they get more of?

Metungboy
Metungboy
in reply to cesanon

Some viruses like CMV and herpes simplex and zoster cause problems in AIDS patients not because the patients are more likely to become infected because nearly everyone with or without HIV has these viruses but because AIDS patients have a low level of a particular lymphocyte type called a CD 4 I can’t suppress or control the virus. There are some other unusual organisms such as a TB like bacterium which causes significant gut problems and also fever with in large lymph nodes. There is a rare organism in general population called pneumocystis Which causes a pneumonia. There are other organisms such as toxoplasmosis and Cryptococcus which cause brain and lung and other infections .

Patience with normal immune function can control these infections generally although often not eliminate them.

The other part of HIV illness is due to immune stimulation because most patients with HIV have a part of the immune system stimulated not suppressed. Interestingly when patients are put on anti-viral drugs they sometimes become unwell because of recovery of the previously suppressed immune system. I think immunology is complex and it is naive to think that having a “stronger” immune response is always a good thing. Just got asked those poor patience with AIDS you get really unwell when they start to get better.

LearnAll
LearnAll
in reply to noahware

Your point that strong immnuty depends on a combination of factors is accurate . Its truly interplay of many different factors ..some of which you mentioned above in your post.

Rod98168
Rod98168
in reply to noahware

No matter what tall Allen thinks he's wrong because there is no proof . If ADT was so good then every man out there would be taking it to protect themselves and make their immune system stronger. There is no conclusive evidence, but there's plenty of evidence that ADT does harm to the body because we need androgens. Our bodies were created with them for a reason.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to Rod98168

Another ridiculous strawman argument.

Mathes72
Mathes72
in reply to Tall_Allen

TallAllen,why Do you even answer these people,I do not get adt for covid19 if it helps all the better,I am still stay home

Rod,

It would cerainly be misleading to say that ADT is protective against COVID-19.

I posted a month ago that testosterone dampens the immune response, and that the thymus, which involutes at puberty, grows back again during ADT. Perhaps a good thing for the immune response.

It is known that the flu shot is not very effective in men who have high-normal T. One has to be able to respond against it to build the immunity.

I have read that healthy young men form a significant fraction of those becoming seriously ill from COVID-19 - i.e. the demographic with high-normal T.

Although women respond well to the flu shot, the downside is that they are more prone to autoimmune disease. One might hypothesize that men on ADT might also be at risk for autoimmune ailments. (However, note that castrate T generally results in low levels of estradiol.)

The hypothesis was tested in a (MD Anderson) study of rheumatoid arthritis [RA] in patients on ADT [1].

"Conclusions: Consistent with the immunosuppressive properties of androgens, we demonstrated for the first time that ADT was associated with an elevated risk of being diagnosed with RA in this large cohort of elderly men with prostate cancer. The risk was higher with a longer duration of ADT. Linking ADT to an increased risk of being diagnosed with an autoimmune condition adds to mounting evidence of the adverse effects of ADT that should prompt physicians to thoughtfully weigh its risks and benefits."

My conclusion is that (a) men should not worry that ADT by itself weakens the immune system, and (b) men on ADT would probably fare worse if T was reinstated. But this does not mean that we have special protection from COVID-19, it just puts us on the same level as women.

-Patrick

[1] mdanderson.elsevierpure.com...

justfor
justfor
in reply to pjoshea13

My personal case. Had the anti-flu vaccine with my wife during October last. One and a half month ago my wife got the flu. I did not. My T count was at the time 1074! (age 70)

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to justfor

Wow!

Currumpaw
Currumpaw
in reply to justfor

Hey justfor!

A long time ago I took every science course I could with a certain professor. She was one of the most brilliant people I have had the pleasure of knowing in my life. She had a love of knowledge and teaching. She was a taskmaster and brought out the best in her students. Many students who signed up for her classes were "one and done", never to take a class she taught again! She taught part time as she was also involved in research in Boston.

What she said about the flu shot still applies today. The shot is formulated for the CDC's best "guestimate" as to what strain(s) will be circulating. International travel screws that up doesn't it? Track the spread of the Coronavirus! At that time, flu vaccines were manufactured at a single plant in the UK. This company was also I heard, subsidized by the US, when it's vaccines didn't sell a volume to remain profitable. The company couldn't shutter it's doors. That is also the reason why when the "guesstimate " is off the mark we are advised that "even though the formulation is off, if you get the flu shot it can lessen the symptoms if you do get the flu". Has everyone heard that? I think we have. Follow the money.

Did your wife have a strain not in the vaccine's formula? Maybe opened up a bag whatever to snack on during the ride home from shopping?

This is how things work.

A hypothesis

A theory

Testing and compilation of empirical data

The theory is proven and becomes a law

Interesting that a noted doctor mentioned on television that women do not get COVID 19 at the same rate as men and survive it better because it seems that women have stronger immune systems. Let us go back some eons--those who bear the species--a survival feature of the weaker gender--maybe-- is a stronger immune system by those who bear the species to enable the species to survive? Well! Imagine that

Currumpaw

justfor
justfor
in reply to Currumpaw

Thanks Currumpaw

It is the understanding here that this year's flu strain was not among those targeted. And this accounts only to common flu and not to the corona virus. An unofficial estimate claims that only ~3/4 of those vaccinated were practically protected by the flu vaccine. From the time my wife demonstrated the flu symptoms we guess that her infection took place either during a large group gathering, or while using the public transport to go and come back from there. Since then, both have been banned.

Boywonder56
Boywonder56
in reply to justfor

Are you on adt ....if so it ainr working..

justfor
justfor
in reply to Boywonder56

On ADT with T= 1074? Certainly not.

😂

This is a well balanced response. I took Tall_Allen’s post to indicate that men on ADT may not be particularly more susceptible to infection due only to the lack of testosterone - I did not take it to mean that it would be protective despite other factors such as heart, liver or lung comorbidities. Cheers, Phil

Men may have higher death rates for something as simple as they travelled more, hence were at greater risk of exposure. At this point the reason is unknown.

Also important to keep in mind the average age of people who died of COVID-19 in Italy is 80 and nobody (in the US) under the age of 19 has died. Very few people under 50 have serious side effects. Finally, most fatalities also had 2 or more comorbidities.

I know the members of this forum definitely skew towards the demographic most at risk, but I think insinuating to this group that ADT is protective is a real stretch. If I were male, 60+, and have comorbidities, I would just stay inside and not count on the protection of my most recent ADT shot.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to mtnwife

Hey mtnwife! I heard in both Italy and China that most men smoke and most women don’t.

Most interesting discussion regarding an important and current subject. Thanks Tall_Allen, noahware, Rod98168, and others. Even though we don't know the ADT - Coronavirus effect (or lack thereof) with much certainty, I think sharing information and perspectives is prudent.

I agree. I was very surprised to see Tall Allen circulating purely speculative info like that. IMO, calls into question his other posts, which I previously thought very informed.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to jersy

😂😂😂

RICH22
RICH22
in reply to Whimpy-p

thnx for the imogees. :D

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to RICH22

It’s the least I can do!😎✌️

Gearhead
Gearhead
in reply to jersy

jersy, I think you are being too harsh. Tall Allen has never represented that ADT protection from Coronavirus is anything other than speculative. He has, however, provided some information that suggests a potential connection. I regard that as valuable because few of us have that information. Perhaps he is remiss in assuming that we have basic critical thinking skills.

Having read many of his posts, I think he is always pretty clear about when he is providing facts, speculation, or just links to pertinent research results.

RICH22
RICH22
in reply to jersy

😂😂😂

All I read into what he had wrote was ADT won't weaken the immune system to put Prostrate patients at more risk than normal for this virus.

Not that I'm on ADT because I had the subcapsular orchiectomy in Nov. I assume if anyone is going through Chemo or Radiation right now the should take extra precautions but we all know that already. My biggest concern is the Hospitals being overwhelmed that I wont get the treatment I need when I need it. I'm self isolating in the middle of our 50 acre forest, I'm happy here and not much reason to go anywhere else.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Zetabow

50 acres is nice. Good luck Zetabow!

Zetabow wrote >> "...I'm self isolating in the middle of our 50 acre forest, I'm happy here and not much reason to go anywhere else."

Had my complete bi-lateral Orchie. April 2015. No isolation at this moment, instead I went for a 141 mile bicycle ride yesterday. (2 times my 70th birthday in July + 1 extra for good measure) Actually I started the ride at 11pm Friday night, took a few breaks AND EVEN managed to fall over thanks to hitting a wild hog rutting patch. Don't know if the Orchie has provided any extra immuno aid, don't know if my controversial "T" injections help/not help my immuno system, don't know if the 1600+ "T" right after injection or the down to 20's when I delay by 2 weeks helps or not BUT WHAT THE HEY, nothing like being on a "roller coaster ride" without actually being on the ride.

Buckle-UP y'all.

141 miles! Very impressive!

141 miles wow.

Only 56 and I was pro sportsman and Coach before this beast got me. The bone pain and fatigue has made me a shadow of my former self. I did about 3 hours light work behind our new house clearing the cut trees, I spent most of the following day in bed unable to move. I keep pushing on but this PC pushes back hard.

Just moments ago I dug up some thorny vine bulbs that grow in by the palmetto and I am beat. Bicycling for 6+ hours not a problem but real exercise, forget about it. ;0)

You sound just like me . Work at 1/10 of my old self. Work for a few hours pulling trees and I pay for it for a week . The new us !😎✌️

Boywonder56
Boywonder56
in reply to Zetabow

Man i mirror you... that's why I find it hard to believe that these people can run a hundred miles or bike a hundred miles and have the same stuff we do I guess it differentiates keep fighting

I m with ya boy wonder. We have a few super dudes that never fail to amaze me . Be well .. 🌵

Hey addicted2cycling!

Nice! You are an inspiration!

I'm doing heavy back squats, deadlifts and clean to overhead presses to the last rep. One tends to gasp for air for a minute or so after a set of those. After the fluoroquinolone damage the weight on the bars is down but at my present level okay.

I might start a little running again with a series of sprints at the end. Good lungs make chances of survival better.

What I am wondering is if Coronavirus causes permanent lung damage. That has been mentioned.

Currumpaw

Really stinks what the fluoro did to you and others. I've mentioned about Dr. O walking in to say "HI and get the hug from wife" right before he went to work on me when he saw the IV bag of antibio the nurse was going to start the drip with and snapped up with --- "WHAT'S that doing here. We can't give him that because he's an endurance athlete and it can be disastrous for him."

Your routine is awesome and inspiring but I just can't find the mojo to move my butt. If I did my cycling would be soooo much better, guess I am just a slacker. Can't walk the distances like I used too due to knee bones rubbing and that's why I'm pushing the time on the bike working the lungs.

You keep pumping and cautiously start the pounding and I'll keep pedaling.

Cipro is a disaster! I got thrashed twice - never again! It took a year for my biceps to recover.

I was SUPER LUCKY in that back in 2015 I only had a very short use of it and had no fall out at that time, BUT I was in the most physically fit condition of my life. I think that had I been on longer, issues would have started.

Be well.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Escudilla

Cipro and other heavy antibiotics for over a year whittled my muscles and bones quickly away . Also double adt at that time. But , I would have died from

Infection without antis . . I’m on keflex now for a week for a tooth implant . Aye Karamba!😎

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Currumpaw

Don’t know and I hope that you and I don’t find out . Take care 😎

Rod98168
Rod98168
in reply to Zetabow

I'm wondering how you feel about the effects of orchiectomy? Where you on ADT before you did the orchiectomy and have you noticed any difference between the two?

Tal, I am surprised on a number of fronts, as I almost always concur. I do NOT agree that men in ADT have enhanced immune systems. Our group has now compiled nine pages of side effects from the drug treatment, MOST of which do NOT appear on the drug monograms, which in my view is CRIMINAL of the drug companies. Lupron has been around since 1993 yet the monogram has NOT changed or been altered in the past 26 years!!!!

The FACT is that anyone taking cancer treatments will impair their immune systems in some fashion or combination therein.

noahware
noahware
in reply to billyboy3

These nine pages of side effects... are they compiled in a single place I can access? Thanks!

An old quote (origins unknown): "he who attacks the King must be prepared to die."

Courageous to keep the debate robust. It is an intriguing association to be sure but I would not cut off my balls if I caught the novel virus. "Novel" is important in this discussion. We do not know, scientists do not know, the president does not know. Hope and speculation.

Currumpaw
Currumpaw
in reply to dadzone43

Hey dadzone43!

Association is closer to what? Hypothesis or theory?

There well may be "something" there. It is at this time too early to do more than present a theory that men on ADT have an enhanced immunity from COVID 19.

Anyone have numbers? The percentage of men on ADT that have contracted COVID 19 versus the number not on ADT that have contracted it.

Data from a study would have to be focused on ADT and COVID 19 and COVID 19 only as ADT conferring enhanced immunity to COVID 19 to be relevant.

Factors--

Age.

Incidence of exposure.

How long would one need to have been on ADT? Is there a time before ADT confers enhanced protection?

Would other drugs combined with ADT increase ADT's ability to protect?

The initial fitness of the men on ADT.

Diet and supplements the men take.

Prevailing stress level and attitude.

Currumpaw

dadzone43
dadzone43
in reply to Currumpaw

Association in statistics basically means there is something there but not solidly, statistically proven.

Currumpaw
Currumpaw
in reply to dadzone43

Hey dadzone43!

Closer in your opinion to hypothesis or theory? Hypothesis perhaps?

Be careful my friend. Hope to see you when it COVID 19 is put to bed.

Currumpaw

dadzone43
dadzone43
in reply to Currumpaw

hypothesis. there are so many variables beyond a simple covid = or - testosterone. Theoretically possible. No data reach any conclusion, especially for a virus that has only been around us for eight weeks.

Currumpaw
Currumpaw
in reply to dadzone43

Hey dadzone43!

Precisely! Insufficient data directly correlating ADT alone as enhancing men's immunity to COVID 19.

Insufficient data about COVID 19! It has only been identified since late December? When first identified by the Chinese an attempt was made by them to sort of --sweep it under the proverbial rug? That lumpy rug used by the human race since rugs were invented!

My thoughts and prayers go out to the Italians. Imagine age being a factor as to whether one will receive treatment? Or be placed on palliative care to die! Travel back and forth between China and Italy because of the garment industry--design and manufacturing.

Currumpaw

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to dadzone43

I already cut off my balls. No going back on that one😂

Whimpy-p wrote >> " I already cut off my balls. No going back on that one😂 "

You can call me "wimpy-wimpy-wimpy" since I had the DR. remove mine while under a general. 😳

Bad phrasing on my part . But it was totally my decision .

Thought your "phrasing" was EMOTIONALLY SPOT ON. Just tried to inject some humor. Sorry if it didn't read that way. Decades ago events in my life required a "reboot or reset" that made me adopt a "like water off a duck's back" for ALL THINGS. For myself there is no "while being awake time" to feel sorry, depressed, worry about the now (cancer) or the future (death).

My "BOYS" were with me for almost 65 years, had occasions to cause extreme pain when contact was made playing baseball (unprotected catcher), pedal slip when bicycling, other instances yet wonderfully helped create 2 great children. NO REGRETS having them GONE IN 60 SECONDS + a few minutes. ;0)

A lifetime of protecting the family jewels gone in 60!seconds. If past the point of having kids they’re quite worthless . If your foot had gang green you must cut it off. I was in a life or death thrall with APC . I chose life . If a cure is soon found then I’m a fool ? Otherwise , I’ve given myself better odds in my opinion of adding years to my life sentence here. No rear view mirrors needed on this trip . Be well.💪🚴‍♀️🚴‍♀️🚴‍♀️

It is good to see and I commend Tall Allen for no longer thinking a double blind clinical trial is required before accepting anything as factual. Previously he discarded all scientific studies as unproven and unreliable no matter how well conducted or corroborated by other independent studies, merely because they were not double blind clinical trials. But in this case, his assumptions and conclusions are being drawn from weak antidotal evidence and are purely speculative.

RICH22
RICH22
in reply to George71

careful, buddy -- attacking TA can result in his tribe ganging up on you!

😂😂😂

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to RICH22

No tribal warfare here anymore. It ain’t worth it.. Like Rodney King said “ cant we all just get along”?

RICH22
RICH22
in reply to Whimpy-p

yeah, and look what happened to poor ol' rodney!

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to RICH22

Yep, that’s my point. First they beat him badly . He got a little money but still died very young .🕊

RICH22
RICH22
in reply to Whimpy-p

yes, pretty damn sad. Had a friend (note past tense) who insisted King kept resisting arrest, so cops had to keep beating him until he stopped.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to RICH22

Don’t know him but he must have been racist . The video showed the truth . But pcp ain’t no joke either.. don’t hear of it much anymore , meth took over . Can you imagine the mayhem for homeless and addicts right now. ? High risk .. Stay home rich . Be well

RICH22
RICH22
in reply to Whimpy-p

not exactly racist; it's complicated. Happy Anniversary, brother, and many more.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to RICH22

Maybe just ultra right .. I’m not knock him in the grave brother. I’ve had friends from all walks of life . Both side of the track . ✌️

RICH22
RICH22
in reply to Whimpy-p

Nick was a liberal, went into Harlem in NYC to help people register to vote. Somewhere in the 1960s, his mom got mugged by 3 black kids, beat her up pretty bad. The family had immigrated from Italy, mom never spoke English. Nick remains conflicted to this day - sometimes he's pro-immigrant rights, other times he's racist.

That's the short version. As stated, it's complicated.

Stay well, amigo.

The bottom line is we all need to do our best to stay as safe as possible. Again, common sense rules here, keep away from people, wash hands frequently, keep clean, eat well and do get some exercise. Do NOT let your guard down in terms of personal care, for we are ALL responsible for taking care of ourselves.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET THIS VIRUS, even in its mild forms. There is NO good coming to those whose immune systems are already compromised by throwing another wrench at our bodies to fight off.

SO, keep well, keep aware, take all precautions to isolate and keep yourselves safe.

In relation to the ad hoc study we did on Lupron and other drugs, the fellow who was our science guy, passed away and I never kept a copy of his findings, which were gathered over a number of years from patients. I will try to locate a summary of them and post soon.

The bottom line to the findings clearly showed that the pharm companies are NOT providing accurate nor current updates on their drugs, almost none do follow up studies to expand outcomes and side effects from treatments over longer periods of time-which is scary in all senses. Sadly, a drug comes online, they start to make money, and all else stops-unless, in most cases, serious health issues, i.e. DEATH, are resulting in large numbers of them for those who take the drugs.

This is some large measure, accounts for why we see so many side effects and additional health issues from those who are on drugs to fight pc. DO we have a choice?? NO, sadly, we are all victims of the pharms and until and unless we, as patients, get some control over these money making giants, will things become balanced.

I also note two of our other findings:

1. psa tests varied as several firms make the mediums for the test, as much as 20% variance. We STRONGLY recommend that ALL psa tests for one patient be done at one lab, when the results are used to prescribe or alter drug treatment programs.

2. The successful outcomes from surgery are directly related to the size of the medical centre, with the larger cities having much better rates of success and less problems. WE know that this is directly a result of having the best surgons living in the most desirable centres, and sadly, most of those are located large cities. We also found the larger centres were the most modern-again funding for large hospitals tend to be much larger than for small.

Hope this helps troops.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to billyboy3

None of us want it .😳

1. Yes nothing counts without a clinical trial.

2. Without a doubt testosterone and steroids in general suppress not enhance immune systems.

3. Interesting that small amounts of estradiol help immune function but large amounts impair it.

4. The COVID-19 deaths apparently are caused in part by the immune system attacking COVID-19 as it attacks your lung cells.

5. Without a clinical trial you just don't know if Androgen Deprivation Therapy will help, or hurt, and in what way it would do so. Biological systems are complicated.

6. Demographically women have stronger immune systems than men.

7. In Italy 80% of the Covid-19 deaths were men. Comparatively, women skated free from mortality.

It is an imperfect world.

1. If you are on ADT, maybe you don't want to early terminate it right now.

2. If you were thinking about ADT, now is a good time to accelerate the decision.

3. I would not trust any Doc who would prescribe ADT for COVID-19 or as a prophylactic to COVID-19 right now. And you would have to look far and wide to find such a Doc anyways. Option 3 is not a real option in the real world.

Would anyone here disagree in the least with any of the above points?

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to cesanon

Yes , I don’t agree with Number#1 .. By saying that nothing counts except clinical trials you kill hope for those praying for miracles or a radical remissions .Also those in practicing diet and nutrition. I’ve experienced a radical remission my self and in my thinking it was due to all of the so called unproven stuff of which you speak . Clearly I did the conventional treatments too. Each to their own path way of healing is my thought. Let’s get through this crash in order to talk about it afterwards ? Be well cesanon🕊🙏

cesces
cesces
in reply to Whimpy-p

"A superstition is any belief or practice based upon one's trust in luck or other irrational, unscientific, or supernatural forces. Often, it arises from ignorance, a misunderstanding of science or causality, a belief in fate or magic, or fear of that which is unknown."

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to cesces

To receive miracles you must believe in them . “ You might Call me a dreamer , but I’m not the only one”

cesces
cesces
in reply to Whimpy-p

"A superstition is any belief or practice based upon one's trust in luck or other irrational, unscientific, or supernatural forces. Often, it arises from ignorance, a misunderstanding of science or causality, a belief in fate or magic, or fear of that which is unknown."

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to cesces

I’d rather be lucky than smart in this pandemic . Good luck to you 🤞

This is a many headed hydra in terms of its' effects on human hosts. Came across this article in Rheumatology the-rheumatologist.org/arti... about cytokine storms. An interview with a Respiratory Therapist from New Orleans on Pro-Publica's site describes patients with bloody sputum. Sounded reminiscent of stories from 1918 when the flu returned in the fall with a vengeance it was mostly younger patients who were dying. The cause, according to some, was a cytokine storm caused by massive over reaction of the immune system. The authors of the current article quote physicians saying that up to 20% of people who come down with Covid-19 will be prone to such an immune reaction. Something to keep in mind if you or a loved one end up in the hospital. This is not an aspect of the disease that's received widespread coverage in the media and even the respiratory therapist in his interview never mentioned it in the context of the younger adults in his care who succumbed.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to FRTHBST

Hydra is a good name for it!😳

Well, I'm going to ask for two Lupron shots tomorrow after reading this study... :) Now I'm hoping ADT has offset the loss of CD4+ lymphocytes I lost during radiation.

_____

In this report we evaluated alterations to the lymphocyte repertoire and adaptive immune responses in prostate cancer patients treated with ADT. While we found no significant change in the numbers of circulating lymphocytes (T- and B-cell), we did identify changes within T-cell subsets following therapy. Specifically, we found the CD4+ naïve T cell population expands by 1 month of therapy, and more specifically the CD4+ RTE population. An increase in the CD4+ RTE population was detectable as long as 24 months after beginning ADT. In addition, we demonstrated CD4+ and CD8+ cells were more sensitive to CD3 and CD28 stimulation following therapy, and effector and memory T-cell subsets were observed to have the most robust responses to the stimulation. Curiously, we observed fewer IFNγ-secreting and IL-17-secreting memory T cells following long-term ADT. In terms of prostate antigen-specific immune responses, our results demonstrated responses to proteins of the prostate are elicited following ADT as early as one month after beginning treatment, but some responses developed months later. Individual antigens recognized were, for the most part, specific to individual patients and not commonly recognized among different individuals. Taken together, these results suggest that ADT with a GnRH analogue: 1) induces an expansion of the naïve T cell compartment with continued thymic output; 2) may decrease the T-cell activation threshold; and 3) may elicit changes and adaptive responses by 1 month after beginning therapy with changes persisting over the course of therapy. These observations suggest androgen deprivation may augment the desired effects of prostate cancer-directed immunotherapies by increasing the pool of naïve T cells which could respond to the immunotherapy, by enhancing T-cell responsiveness, and these effects may persist over the course of androgen deprivation.

In conclusion, we identified that patients treated with ADT develop persistent changes in adaptive immune responses. In particular some patients developed a continued expansion of naïve T cells through thymic output. In addition, T cells in the periphery of treated patients proliferated more robustly to TCR and co-receptor stimulation, and IgG responses developed to proteins of the prostate which could be detected in the sera by one month after beginning ADT. It is interesting to note that vaccines for the treatment of prostate tumors have to date shown greatest efficacy in patients with late-stage disease when patients are undergoing ADT [7, 8]. Future studies will explore in experimental models whether there may be a benefit to sequencing androgen deprivation with active immunotherapies.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

cesanon
cesanon
in reply to timotur

"offset the loss of CD4+ lymphocytes I lost during radiation"

Where did you get your radiation?

What kind of radiation did you get?

timotur
timotur
in reply to cesanon

I had HDR-BT followed by 25x IMRT (45Gy). My lymphocytes dropped from about 1325 to about 274 after the radiation, probably attributed to the radiation killing off the CD-4 cells.

cesces
cesces
in reply to timotur

How is it possible to first do Brachithetherapy followed by radiation treatment?

Don't the pellets get in the way?

Did you have lymph node radiation?

timotur
timotur
in reply to cesces

I had HDR (high-dose)-BT using Iridium-192 pellets that were inserted for about 15 minutes, then removed. LDR (low-dose) BT uses Cesium 131 permanently implanted pellets.

oncologymedicalphysics.com/...

Yes, I had radiation to the pelvic bed, to treat one LN+, the mesorectal node, and possible other nodes, so that whole area got treated. (see profile for details).

cesanon
cesanon
in reply to timotur

Might be worth making an appointment with one of these fellows before doing a 3-9 month lupron shot. They might have some better ideas perhaps.

They might be the only specialists around that can generate some informed opinions. Probably more informed than either an HIV specialist or a PCA specialist.

1. Matthew D. Morse, PhD

Cancer Biology Graduate Student

Email: mm8@medicine.wisc.edu

Education:

BS: Michigan State University (East Lansing, MI)

(2002, Microbiology and Molecular Genetics)

PhD: University of Wisconsin - Madison

(Summer 2011, Cancer Biology)

Matthew Morse graduated in July 2011.

Graduate Research Focus

My research is focused on the characterizing the immune response to androgen deprivation therapy. Androgen deprivation is a standard treatment for metastatic prostate cancer, and it has previously been observed that androgens influence the immune system. We have shown patients treated with androgen deprivation develop antibodies to proteins expressed in the prostate. The identification of these proteins gives us a panel of potential vaccine targets for the treatment of advanced prostate cancer. I have also identified in an animal model there is an infiltration of T-lymphocytes into the prostates of male Lewis rats following androgen deprivation; these cells show an activated immune response as defined by their cytokine expression profile, and in functional assays I have shown they respond in a prostate specific manner. These observations have led to the hypothesis: androgen deprivation therapy may enhance the efficacy of immunotherapies for the treatment of prostate cancer.

2. DOUGLAS MCNEEL, MD, PHD

PROFESSOR

HEMATOLOGY/ONCOLOGY FACULTY

WI INSTITUTE MEDICAL RESEARCH

1111 HIGHLAND AVE

MADISON, WI 53705-2275

dm3@medicine.wisc.edu

(608) 263-4198

Specialty: Medical Oncology

Subspecialty: Genitourinary Cancer

Board Certification: Internal Medicine

Medical School: University of Chicago-Pritzker School of Medicine

Residency: University of Washington, Fred Hutchison Cancer Research Center

Fellowship: University of Washington

Primary Affiliation(s): UW Hospital and Clinic

Search for Douglas McNeel's literature abstracts on PubMed

“We do not know, scientists do not know, the president does not know.“

Little known for sure with either COVID-19 or prostate cancer, which has been around a long time. What can be said, with certainty, about the benefits or side effects of ADT couldn’t fill a thimble. Absolute facts and truths simply don’t exist.

After getting advice, reading the studies and evaluating all the data available, we go with our gut, combined with faith and luck. Who knows if the unlucky will even have a choice in some overburdened ICU, with a bunch of other old men suffering from PCa and this virus.

I’m not going back on ADT, or getting castrated, not that either was suggested to protect against COVID-19. I’m doing everything reasonable to protect against the current scourge. Stay at home; don’t roam, and a lot more.

Thanks to all for your opinions, and especially to Tall Allen for trying to inform us, starting this thread, suffering the slings of doubt from some, and for consistently publishing prostate cancer facts, evaluations, and so much more!

Remember what they say about "why most husbands die before their wives... it's because they want to"........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Sunday 03/22/2020 5:30 PM DST

In my case --- since she has all the $$$$, I'm just being KEPT around for the cooking, cleaning, chauffeuring and BACK SCRATCHING. I've been a "Disposable Partner" for soon to be 47 years and have noooo problems being one.

I say, there's only one thing worse than being a housewife.... and that's being a househusband......

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 03/23/2020 11:41 AM DST

Its worth remembering that it is not the virus that kills, its the immune response to the virus that kills the patient. Thus increased immune response may reduce the infection, but also increases the death rate. thus enhanced immunity may even translate into the worst outcome. we should be cautious against (t)all claims until the mechanism is established including the Hydroxychloroquine.

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