Was wondering how many other members have been diagnosed with bladder cancer after undergoing pelvic radiation. Spouse diagnosed with Gleason 9 last June( one suspect lymph node in pelvis) and has been treated with ADT, 5 sessions of high dose pelvic radiation and brachytherapy. PSA still undetectable so we were really dismayed at this new diagnosis.
Did radiation cause new cancer? - Advanced Prostate...
Did radiation cause new cancer?
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Vitaminlover
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Sorry you have to deal with twice as much. Based on Hiroshima data, it takes at least 5, and more probably 10 years for low levels of radiation to generate a cancer; so it is unlikely in such a short time.
Has he had a germline genetic test?
pcnrv.blogspot.com/2018/02/...
He had 5 sessions of high dose SBRT if that makes any difference. Urologist did say it usually takes years to affect bladder. Planning to discuss genetic testing at next meeting with medical oncologist. Thank you!
The incidence of bladder cancer seems to be higher in patients treated with radiation than in patients treated with radical prostatectomy.
europeanurology.com/article...
Yes, that would seem reasonable. Thanks for the input!
Best of luck. I am sorry to hear he has to deal with another cancer.
Thank you!
in reply to Vitaminlover
I’m Sorry for my curiosity but was he ever a smoker .? The reason I ask is that my father smoked two packs of Salem menthols for 35 years . He quit at 55 yrs old . Yet ,at 68 he got bladder cancer ,directly attributed to his smoking . He went into remission with a chemo injection containing tb . Two years later pc and a RP . These vital organs are so close to each other ... I’m 58 now but I did RT at 53 and continue adt to date .. pc tumors blocked my bladder and urethra . Once the pelvis has undergone radiation everything surrounding can get collateral effects . I believe that my S-I and hips joints are greatly depleted by RT and adt combined . The price we pay . and All treatments diminish us ... it’s a trade off to stay a little longer with the ones we love . Keeping him undetectable is dealing well with the pc . I’m sorry for this new dx . When it rains it pours .. May you find ways to comfort him any way possible . I pray that also peace of mind comes to you in this mind boggling voyage . His pc under control let’s pray that he can cure that bladder c also . Stay well yourself ..🙏
Vitaminlover in reply to
Thank you very much and wishing you the best of health. He was never a smoker and was not around 2nd hand smoke at home. The only recent “causative” effect would be the SBRT in Jan 19.
in reply to Vitaminlover
It’s still Good that he wasn’t a smoker . Best luck finding solutions .
Vitaminlover in reply to
Thank you!
I am so sorry to hear this and do hope a successful treatment is done.
How was the bladder cancer found?
Is there a specific test done or symptoms?
Sincere thanks and all best wishes, Mike
Hematuria in the urine. First thought it was UTI. Was sent for CT urogram and then CT scan. Urine samples showed “atypical cells”.Finally had cystoscopy and was told that nodule looks malignant. Biopsy scheduled for this week. Thank you!
in reply to Vitaminlover
🙏. Good luck on the biopsy ..
When I was contemplating salvage radiation 15 years ago, I was told that there was an increased risk of another cancer - but it wouldn't kick in for 5 years, & in absolute terms, the risk would still be small. My immediate concern was surviving the next 5 years, so is wasn't really a concern.
About 8 years later I had blood in the urine, so I went to my urologist. For him, it was a familiar situation. He said that oncologists viewed radiation as a clean therapy, but it was left to urologists to deal with the mess. He wanted to take a look inside the bladder.
I felt that the blood did not originate in the bladder, so declined his kind offer. But his anger at having to deal with another mess left an impression.
Anyway, I doubt that radiation contributed to your husband's cancer.
But, for men who have radiation & survive 5 years, it's worth being aware of increased risk.
Dr. Myers, in a vlog post, surprised me by describing radiation as "the therapy that keeps on giving."
I had my final (incomplete) colonoscopy ~5 years ago (my liver metabolized the sedative cocktail in seconds, as also the second dose.) I was delighted by the photos they managed to get. The area that received radiation looked very healthy. A tribute, perhaps, to all the polyphenols that had made it to the region. I suspect that radiation-risk is a modifiable risk.
My bladder has received its share of polyphenols too. & the supplement with a track record with bladder problems is Cran-Max cranberry extract. There is no downside & perhaps it might help. Many brands carry it:
swansonvitamins.com/swanson...
-Patrick
I would have been loading him up with antioxidants but other than Vit D3 and turmeric, the medical oncologist office was not receptive. Since he is still on Zytiga/ Lupron and doing well, didn’t want to compromise the treatment in any manner. Appreciate your input
in reply to pjoshea13
“ keeps on giving”. So true and funny if not so . Great post ,Thanks
It's definitely an issue. That's why you are supposed to get a urine test once a year for any suspicious cells floating around.
I had bracy and EBRT 23 years ago and no one ever told me that I should get a urine test. About 15 years after treatment I was DX with CLL. While they don't know for sure what causes CLL, radiation exposure is on the list. I am now fighting Multiple Myeloma.
Mike P
What is "CLL"
Dr. Google:
Chronic lymphocytic leukemia is a type of cancer in which the bone marrow makes too many lymphocytes (a type of white blood cell). Chronic lymphocytic leukemia (also called CLL) is a blood and bone marrow disease that usually gets worse slowly. CLL is one of the most common types of leukemia in adults.
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Sunday 10/27/2019 6:35 PM DST
So sorry to hear that. Best of luck to you! The urologist did admit that it usually takes decades to develop a bladder cancer after radiation but I was curious to see if anyone had a different experience.
“Center of Excellence” never told us that but it is only 9 mths since SBRT( high dose).
Fifteen years after Bracy and EBRT I was DX with CLL. CLL has not needed treatment but are keeping a close tab on it. I have now been DX with Multiple Myeloma, 23 years after initial treatment for PCa.
Even urologist admitted that bladder cancer can show up 5-10 yrs out but we were surprised by only 9 mths. Wondered if short period of high dose made a difference. Good luck with your medical issues!
In my opinion Cancer needs to be defeated at the cell level. Radical change of diet, exercise and supplements that attack cancer cells at their development. Radiation and chemo can kill cancer being treated, but cancer can mutate and grow and spread. Many other drugs only slow the cancer down. Radical change is needed to Starve Cancer and allow old cancer cells to be die. Build up the immune system, change diet, exercise and supplements that seem to attack those active cells. I’m still living the experiment since 2013.
I wholeheartedly agree and would be interested to know your program. Thank you for your response.
I agree, too. A whole food plant based lifestyle is the way to go. Get Dr. Michael Greger's book, "How Not To Die" and read chapter thirteen about prostate cancer.
I will! Thank you!
Almost 2 years after being dx with PCa I was dx with melanoma. Later I had genetic testing done and turns out I have a CHEK2 mutation which makes me more susceptible to PCA, melanoma and several other cancers. Perhaps there is a similar situation with your spouse.
Knowing of this mutation was valuable since it allowed my children to be tested to see if they also carry this mutation and if they need to be on the lookout and getting tested earlier.
Ed
We are going to look into genetic testing also. Thank you!
It doesn’t mean too much in the way of treatment but it is good information for family members to have.
Yes!
My Dad got cancer from the radiation used to treat his prostate cancer. His radiation caused a sarcoma. His prostate cancer never came back(PSA was undetectable) but the sarcoma from the radiation treatment for his prostate cancer killed him. It did take some time for the sarcoma to be noticed, I would say about 5 years or so.
Sending you and yours hugs, prayers, and love!
Softwaremom
I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you! This blog is really my safety net in the crazy world of cancer and treatments.
Another "old wives tale" believed by "scientists". Not getting a balanced diet which includes anti-oxidants is a much bigger problem. You have to eat properly to beat this beast, and that includes lots of Vit C - the king of the anti-oxidants. You will not find Vit C on the "Drug Interactions" list of any of the usual Pca medications (or chemo).
It's unbelievable how much BS flows around us that originates from the "ignorant professionals". You really do have to fight the doctors because they have much to learn - especially about diet and outcomes. They are generally clueless because they have no training in this field, and are thus also gullible to believing tales. That's how it works. That's why they say "Eat what you like" - and they may add (when doing chemo) "except anti-oxidants".
(something went wrong with the original post, so this may show up as a duplicate)
It takes 5 years or more for studies of large populations to detect an increased risk of cancer after exposure to radiation.
That does NOT mean that no man gets cancer for 5 years. Quite the opposite; some men get it in year 1, some in year 2, 3, 4, and by year 5 enough men have gotten another cancer that it reaches statistical significance and can be reported.
There's no way to prove, one way or the other, whether your spouse's cancer was caused by radiation. But the timing is certainly suspicious, and as you point out he got high dose pelvic radiation AND a good dose from brachytherapy.
Radiologists should know better and inform their patients about these risks, but ignorance of elementary statistics is almost as common in doctors as ignorance of nutrition and diet.
Whatever the cause, I'm sorry for the added burden on you both. Good luck to you.
I totally agree. Thank you for the info and support! Truly appreciated!
Sorry to hear about his new shitty situation. Hopefully the biopsy will turn out negative....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Sunday 10/27/2019 6:42 PM DST
Thank you! We just went to see Jay Leno perform and the many laughs did us good.
Good... Keep laughing......
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Sunday 10/27/2019 8:07 PM DST
I have never heard of anyone getting bladder cancer caused by external beam radiation. I had a Gleason 9 Pca diagnosis in 2009, and in 2010 it was found to be inoperable after docs opened me to do RP. So I could only have EBRT, as Pca was outside the capsule, but docs who opened me found Pca it had not spread anywhere locally.
Distant spread was not found until I had a PsMa Ga68 PET/CT scan in 2016, 6 years after my attempted but abandoned open RP in 2010.
I have had a lot of RT when I got primary treatment to prostate gland in 2010 with 70Grey, then an additional 31Grey in 2016, and some of the pathways for the X-ray beams pass through bladder and rectum and other places in pelvis, and the amount of radiation in pathways in multiple directions is always less than at the target area, the PG.
The brachytherapy has a different type of radiation that does not travel through distant organs away from PG.
I think your man has a very bad case of bad luck, and you will need the best doctors you can find to diagnose and treat the bladder cancer.
If the bladder is removed surgically, it is a risky operation because radiated tissues are involved which tend to bleed during + after an operation and are slow to heal, and then there is the complicated surgery to join two ureters from kidneys and terminate them to a stoma or opening in side of lower abdomen so a plastic bag can be used to collect urine. I know a man who had this done in addition to having RP, and thus avoided any RT, or risk of local Pca spread after RP or any need for ADT. But it seemed he did not have high Gleason score so Pca mets elsewhere were highly unlikely. I spoke to him 5 years after his massive and expensive operation and he said all was well, and he didn't want to talk about the issue. I don't know if he had ED, but he sure didn't have incontinence and he wasn't needing to wake up 5 times a night to pee, and could last a long time before the bag filled to a litre, and empty it quickly. Many surgeons do not want to do any pelvic surgery if a man has had radiation to PG.
So hence the only other way to treat bladder cancer may be with chemo or whatever else is specific to bladder, and I am not aware of any of that.
Patrick Turner.
So far we know that if low grade cancer is found in bladder it will just be “watched”. High grade cells will need chemo once a week for 5 wks. No mention so far of removal of bladder.
That sounds about right. For many ppl who read the posts here, I mentioned my experience and those of a man who thought it better to have a more drastic surgical solution after being diagnosed with Pca. I doubt your doctors will use any surgery. It can be difficult for doctors to know exactly what caused additional cancer but they may be able to tell if its Pca that has spread, or a different type of cancer more specific to the bladder.
I wish you and your spouse the very best of luck; it is a troubling time to cope with any cancer diagnosis.
Since I was diagnosed 10 years ago, I have never known if I'd live another year because there was always the possibility the Pca may change or attack some part of me where it could not be treated.
Patrick Turner.
The PSA is still undetectable so would be amazed if the prostate cancer has spread but anything is possible. Thank you and wish you many more years of healthy living.
I was diagnosed with bladder cancer a week after my prostate diagnosis. Sometimes everything just goes to shit all at once.
Yes, it really does. How are you doing?
Fantastic at the one year mark. If my bladder is still clear next week then I only need a cystoscopy every 6 months.
Terrific! Did you have any treatment for it?
I had surgical removal (TURBT) of two tumors, one low grade bladder cancer and the other prostate cancer that had spread. I believe my bladder was filled with mitomycin for about an hour after the procedure, but that was it for bladder specific treatment.
It's possible docetaxel may have also had a beneficial effect. I also suspect Lupron/Abiraterone may be helping as men are 4x more likely to get bladder cancer than women, and I saw a study that said something to the effect of mice without testosterone receptors don't get bladder cancer. My urologist only agrees with the docetaxel theory.
Thank you for sharing. Wishing you continued good health!
My husband has the ATM genetic defect. This mutation has been shown in some cases to cause a secondary cancer when radiation therapy is used.
Good morning.
I would appreciate if you could let me know where this information about the ATM came from. Was it from the oncologist?
Thank you so much. Mike
Thank you for your reply. I will definitely bring that up with oncologist. Did you discover that before doing any therapy?
We had a scare after my husband's Axumen scan in January. The radiologist who read the scan gave an excellent, complete written translation which was worrisome for a suspicious area in the bladder.
The MO felt it was just the inability of that area to clear the scanning agent which we know is common.
A different MO studied the scan and got his favorite radiologist to give us an overhead presentation. They convinced the first MO to order a cystoscopy because the treatment plan would change if it was bladder cancer.
We found a highly skilled, brave urologist who was willing to go up there in spite of others' reluctance to go in there.
The cystoscopy turned out to be much easier then anyone thought plus his bladder looked great and there was no cancer. It was such a relief.
I wish the same good results for you and your husband.
Urologist already did a regular cystoscopy in her suite and found a suspicious nodule which said looked “malignant” based on her experience viewing them. Next procedure is biopsy. Wishing your husband continued good results.
The likely culprit is micrometastasis; not the effects of radiation therapy.
Gourd Dancer
Even though the PSA is still undetectable? Will biopsy reveal that? Thanks!
No new cancers for me and I’ve had lots of radiation since 2014.
Oh, glad to hear that. Hope you are doing well.
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