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Advanced Prostate Cancer
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Defending Curcumin Against The Nay-Sayers

I am countering a Claim made by one of our members to another member[Spaceman210]. Though articles by people having Doctor titles, but these Doctors are totally uneducated in the technology available to us from the supplemental industry, as they lack advanced degrees in Food Science and Food/Supplemental Chemistry, and did not explore the entire landscape about which they were writing on.

The claim was made that Curcumin extracts had less than 1% bio-availability, and a half life of less than an hour. Well that can be true of some/many of the products that fill our Drug store Shelves. But these claims are not the whole story. We within this industry, including myself, are well aware, that when dealing with supplements that have low bio-availability in the body, that we are blessed to have many technologies to off-set such instances. Not all suppliers can provide these technologies. There are recognized technology leaders who have overcome the bio-availability and half life of Curcumin.

When certain non experts generalize, they provide poor information, and maybe they should stay in their lane.

I have a relationship, that goes back to 1980 with Life Extension, Inc. and a direct line to their Research and Development Group. Back about 2006-7 Life extension, realized the issue with Curcumin, and set about finding ways to make it a very useful anti-inflammatory. They used a trademarked Extract, which is Patented called BCM-95, which combines Curcumin Extract, with Co-CO2 Extracted Oils, of Turmeric, supplied by my old Extraction Plant in England, to enhance absorption and the period of time it stays in the body. And for those that do not know, Curcumin is more than one individual compound, and belongs to a class of compounds called Curcuminoids, of which there are 3 that make up most of a Curcumin Extract.

Thusly Life Extensions product, today Advanced Bio-Curcumin with added Gingerol from CO2 Extract of Ginger, and other Turmerones is up to [SEVEN] times more absorbable than any standard Curcumin extract. This product is also active at higher blood levels, for a more extended period of time in the body. This means one capsule can be detected in the blood up to [EIGHT] hours after dosing. So one capsule every eight hours keeps Curcumin, active for 24 hours in the body.

The sustained retention time in the body, was confirmed by human clinical studies. Each serving of The Advanced Bio-Curcumin is equivalent to up to 2,772 mgs of your typical Curcumin Extract.

There are some here, that recognize the scientific excellence available today to overcome the issues of Bio-Availability. Some of these techniques are nanotization, co-oil solubility, where the other oils act as protective carriers. An old Technology from an Industry that I was involved in from the 1980's---->the Micro-Encapsulation Technologies, allowing for release at different points in the bodies digestive system, as well as the new Popularity of using Liposomal Technology to get the supplement to the Liver for release into the blood at this point.

For those that need more info, you can go to the following:

lifeextension.com/Magazine/2007/CE/report_curcumin/Page-01[https://www.]precedes

ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27925534/ and PMC3918227--again https://www. precede these 2

In closing, I emphasize, that there is a lot of dis-information on both sides of certain issues, and if needing a referee ask for clarification--someone here may have an answer, that gets past the NOISE!

Nalakrats

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Hi Nalakrats,

How about the daily dosage of curcumin? I read that it should be 3 gm daily to be effective?

How about the dosage per Kg/Ib body weight ?

Some people are overweight some others are underweight...

Thanks!

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Right on you eccentric researcher.

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I am a believer in Curcumin and believe the Phase 2 trials will show a positive result although someone here said a few days ago that curcumin lasted 1/2 hr in the system and was not effective. The same individual posted one week earlier that one should avoid curcumin for days before a PSA test because of an artificial lowering of PSA...

So which is it?

The answer is that he doesn't know....

The question remains whether in countries where curcumin is a part of the regular diet, is there a decrease in the number of prostate cancer or is there a delay in the proportionate number of cases in various age groups compared to the West ? This study says so, but the question remains whether use of pesticides rurally and more of a change to Western diet in urban areas will play a role in PCa in India...

indianjurol.com/article.asp...

Thanks for posting, Nalakrats...

All the best,

Don Pescado

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Yes, there are many questions that remain, including from your link:

"Jain et al. [42] observed that compared to the rates in native Asian Indians, the rate of cancer in South Asians in California was higher for all sites except oropharyngeal, esophageal, and cervical cancers. This variation could be associated with screening and tobacco habits rather than true differences in the underlying risk. South Asian men in California experienced 15-fold increase in the risk of prostate cancer as compared to Indian males."

Which basically states that if screening rates are low, reported incidence rates will be low regardless of the underlying risk.

From one of Nal's links which hopefully will be more useable in the following form:

lifeextension.com/Magazine/...

"It’s interesting to note that epidemiological studies show the incidence of prostate cancer among men in India to be among the lowest in the world. One recent study estimated that the annual prostate cancer incidence rate in India ranges from 5.0 to 9.1 per 100,000/year. In contrast, among whites in the United States, the incidence rate is 110.4 per 100,000/year—more than ten times higher compared with men from India."

So if we take the 15-fold increase mentioned in the first passage that I quoted along with the 5.0 to 9.1 per 100, 000/year in the second quoted passage and multiply it out, we get an inferred true rate of 75 to 136.5 per 100,000/year [EDIT: in India] and the quoted US rate lies almost in the middle of this range. How does this affect the different dietary claims?

For whatever reason, our flaky DNS server is not resolving the other addresses that Nal provided, so I'll try them later. Perhaps someone else can give some info on them?

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One of the things that have been mentioned is the Western diet and addictions and what role that plays in people of Indian descent since those in the US get similar to the Caucasian population.. Do they use less curcumin when they come here??. the problem lies in isolating out various factors...a challenging endeavor indeed... That's why I am interested in the Phase 2, but some will argue that PSA is a biomarker and only radiographic progression can be used...that could take some real time...

Thanks for replying...for the believers--take, for the non-believers--don't.... my 2 cents on that issue

Don Pescado

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I was an avid daily bike rider and worked out with weights at the local Gold's Gym, ate a healthy diet, and STILL got prostate cancer with a PSA of 21. I've been deemed "cancer free" now by my doctor after 2 years of getting surgery, radiation, Lupron injections, and now have a PSA of .01. Listen to your doctor's advice and ignore con artists who try to offer bogus quick & easy cures, your life depends on it!

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I am Praying for you that you are cured, and that no Pca cells especially Stem Cells have been left behind. If so you will be one of God's Miracles. May it be so!

Nalakrats

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Had I listened to my quacks advice, I would have been dead by now. And my wife would be a lot poorer. The asshole (surgeon) wanted to operate on me despite the asshole knowing that I was severely metastatic, with mets in the skull, neck, collar bone, lung, spine and thighs, apart from the prostate.

Thick skinned, unethical bastard. Of course, there are doctors and doctors.

To figure out who is a crook and who is not, educate oneself. And, hope for a lot of luck. Cheers, Scorpio99.

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This one is in Phase 3 and still recruiting:

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

Is for AS candidates, so wouldn't apply to most here.

As is this one in Phase 3 and adjuvant after RP:

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

Again, wouldn't apply to most here. With my adverse features after RARP, there is no way I would have participated.

Which of these is the Phase 2 that you refer to?

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/resu...

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Apologies...you are right....Phase 3... I have been in a clinical trial but these I do not qualify for--PT4----M1-D2

Thank you,

Fish

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The article you refer to is here:

pcnrv.blogspot.com/2019/04/...

Life Extensions is the worst source of information - they make their fortune hawking unproven and unsafe supplements to a public desperate for any snake oil they can use.

A short lesson in pharmacodynamics:

Absorption through the gut is an entirely differently phenomenon than first pass metabolism. Even if curcumin could be infused through a vein (totally bypassing absorption through the gut), half of it would be excreted within a half hour. It is the liver that detoxifies such substances because the body perceives them as toxins. The only way to change the elimination half-life is to damage liver function (as by cirrhosis).

Please provide a link to back up your statement "The sustained retention time in the body, was confirmed by human clinical studies." The Life extensions website does not make such a claim.

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Here is a recent response you made in regards to PSA masking:

It depends on its pharmacodynamics: the elimination half-life of the substance, its ability to accumulate, and the steady-state concentration. Finasteride, for example, has an elimination half life on a single dose of 5-7 hours, but rises to a much higher steady-state level with multiple dosing. (It affects PSA from BPH, but not PSA from PCa). Curcumin has an elimination half life of a half-hour, but does not accumulate with multiple dosing, and doesn't reach a higher steady state concentration (which explains its lack of effectiveness).

Yet, in your blog article, you warn people to avoid curcumin for days prior to PSA testing. With an inability to accumulate in the system, why would one need to avoid curcumin prior to testing? Based on straight line pharmacodynamics, the curcumin left in the system would be about 1/256th of the dose in 4 hours. Based on that alone, how much could it even effect PSA testing with no dose say in 8 hours?? Answer--likely none...

In India, the incidence of PCa is less than in the West. Is it Western life style and addictions, or curcumin, or some other factor... The reality is--no one knows for sure...possibly multi-factorial as they say in the medical world...

Don Pescado

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Because people with cancer can have impaired liver function, affecting the elimination half life. There are other causes of variance as well. It's safer to wait a couple of days. Even if you don't believe the Choi study and you believe (based on wishful thinking) that it continues to do its magic after the last dose, why would you not wait a couple of days?

Epidemiological studies are only for hypothesis generation. There are way too many ways in which Indians are different from Americans to jump to a rash conclusion that the curcumin has any effect.

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So people with no liver issues do not have to wait days ? Did the Choi study only use people with liver disease? Why would they do that?

Based on your explanation of epidemiological studies, then we can not say that curcumin may not play a role or have an effect.

Thanks for clarifying your posts...

Don Pescado

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I am saying that the elimination half life varies among individuals, and may be affected by liver function, genetics, epigenetics, other medications that may augment or inhibit the responsible liver enzymes.

Epidemiological studies are only hypothesis generating - they are not proof of efficacy. Hypothesis generating means that it might give you an idea worthy of further study. Research goes through a series of steps culminating in randomized clinical trials (RCTs). Only an RCT can provide proof of efficacy and safety.

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Where were all those words such as genetics, epigenetics, elimination varying half life between individuals in your blog or post? Not there...

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Thank you, Allen. I've been following you on this site and another for some time now. You haven't steered us wrong, yet.

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So in his blog he says avoid curcumin for days before PSA tests, and in a reply, it lasts for a short time with no accumulation...Can you explain which it is because he seems to be struggling a bit?? Which way is he steering?

Do you take any supplements? He doesn't endorse them much...

Don Pescado

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With all of his defects (ego, especially), Tall_Allen is the BEST (hands down) on this BB, in my view. I would also read Patrick O'Shea & Gregg57 carefully.

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I am crushed by not making your list....<just kidding>....I like Gregg and Patrick also...The Big 3 could work to make this forum a better place...Who knows what one might feel free to post if trust and a sense of goodwill was held by all...We all can do better...

Fish

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Thanks, Fish. If I had to make a TOP TEN list, you would surely be there.

Please excuse my blunt talk. Political correctness has never been my forte.

Probably why I understand Tall_Allen a tad better than others (perhaps) :-)

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AHHH the Top Ten...in 6 months....I have become an Overnight Sensation--watch out--- the 70's are showing--In the words of the Raspberries--"I know it sounds funny, but I'm not in it for the money"...

Have a great day, my man...

Fish

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You too, Fish :-) Enjoy life !!

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Hey, Whatsin.... First, harsh but fair on the forum rankings. IMO, Fish is steadily climbing the technical rankings here...in my top 5 for a new perspective on alternative care. Second, you are in Bombay (er, Mumbai...), correct? Perhaps you can shed some light on the rates of PCa in India? What's your take on curcurmin?

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Thanks for the endorsement, my man...Hope all is well with you...enjoying my multiple deletions....some saw my posts and I copied some for another day...

Take care,

Fish

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There are key people you can hit up with your words on messenger--one at a time.

Nalakrats

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Thanks but I have my own game plan... when your strategy doesn't work....change strategy... the protected one has golden child status... my 3 deleted posts don't lie...his ego would not have dealt with those messages...confronting his need to be right is beyond him...teach or lead gently is beyond him... live by the sword and die by it is all some comprehend... fun post, my man....despite being deleted multiple times, I more than held my own and you too...

Don Pescado

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Still say get him to prove he ever had Pca.

Nalakrats

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Ah...yes, the deletions! Hilarious and disturbing at the same time.... we are a Ship of the Damned, and yet we worry about complete civility and equate agreement with progress and purpose..... "Mind the yardarm, ye scurvy dogs, and hold yer tongues! We be in the teeth of the devil himself in this storm, and I'll run ya through and offa th' ship iffa ya run afoul of me orders! ...."

This post was great - it allowed a lot of steam to come off the community.

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No, the issue is that many grant civility, but some, with their HUGE ego treat newbies like crap. Most show up here with fear and newly diagnosed. Should a kick in the teeth from the golden child be their welcome?...

You want to teach?--teach gently....Lead?--lead gently....

I wrote 3 great posts encouraging him to look at his statements and his behavior...deleted by the King with a push of his fickle finger.... fear that someone's ego would be damaged I am sure... Ever wonder how many deletions the golden child gets? None...Suspensions? None--how many who disagree with him get suspended? A lot... Sound fair to you?

Fish

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I agree with you and have said the same thing both privately and publicly on this board. Information is ALWAYS best delivered with patience and kindness especially to new members of this community who come here looking for support and information.

I've had some replies deleted, too (not from this particular thread). It's unfortunate and unfair because the context of posts allowed to remain is changed by missing information when posts are deleted. It's frustrating but I have to overlook those issues because the information I get from this board is invaluable. I'm very grateful that people who routinely have their posts challenged continue to post and share.

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We will see how long that lasts? I have served a 3 day suspension for challenging the golden child...yesterday, he belittles Nalakrats claiming his knowledge is greater than all the scientists at Life Extension vitamins and Nalakrats...Does that get removed? Nope...

One individual here named joe is on a 30 day suspension...The take home message is don't mess with the king or the golden child...

Have a great day--Life is Good !!!!

Fish

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That is very disappointing. Many of us contribute financially to this board and if there isn't room for varying views and ideas I'm not likely to stay.

Just the fact that my husband has received wildly different recommendations on treatment from two medical oncologists who focus on prostate cancer is proof enough to me that alternatives are worth exploring and opinions vary greatly on what is right.

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Hang in there! More to come!

Nalakrats

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3 days ..the horror brother..

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I did it standing on my head !!!! Learned that from my brother LuLu... <grin>

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Sometimes you’ve just got to look at things from a different angle .. I see you helping newbies and those searching for hope . Nat -sayers are abound in life . Never stops us . 😂

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You and Nal seem to have started fighting the wrong war.

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I am not fighting a war.. maybe Nalakrats is ??What war do you think I am fighting?

Fish

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I do not find the deletions hilarious...This was an opportunity for the golden one to look at his claims, his posts, his ego....and the king would not allow it to happen....Can his ego not take it?

Does he lack the patience to teach in a kinder, gentler fashion?? Deleting 3 pleas to look at his behavior and evolve into something much more...He has knowledge, but if it comes from the end of a stick or whip then will it be received well? No... Our welcome to the forum red carpet special for newbies with a new diagnosis and fear... What a welcome !!!

There was no humor in what was done to my posts yesterday... No one wants peace....that was the take home message...Anybody feeling better about this issue? Not me !!!!

Fish

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Understood, Fish. No offense meant, and I apologize for being flippant.

I suppose I see it all as sad, but par for the course in many "public" venues - the scrubbing of information and views for the sake of supporting a bleak vanilla view of things that provides no hope or solace.

I also have an understanding and experience with the fact that a good percentage of smart, even brilliant, people are on the autism spectrum. Most of my docs are - certainly the specialists. They don't even see their major social disability - likely it's a benefit when dealing with the life and death of others.

I seek only treatment and treatment options from them and those like them. I seek healing from people like you. Thanks, brother.

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Appreciate your reply...We are all here to look at options and choose....We bet our lives... Should we place our bet in an angry , listen to me environment or a calm, patient, relaxed environment to process information and make our choices??...

The answer is obvious... the newbies don't need flogged....isn't this diagnosis enough of a flogging for all??

There is no apology needed... much respect, brother...

Have a great day-- Life is Good !!!

Fish

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Yes, SeosamhM, Fish would right now be in my TOP TEN for ALL treatments for advanced prostate cancer.

Sorry, I have no clue on the stats for PCa in Bombay. And, frankly, how does it matter ?? All that I can say is that any statistical survey would be grossly misleading as a whole bunch of people (millions) would be left out.

Again, I have no idea whatsoever about curcurmin. We have been eating curcurmin for decades (through tumeric). It does not seem to have helped me at all at least wrt prostate cancer. I having being eating on an everyday basis things like flax seeds, chia seeds, pomegranate seeds, etc, etc. Did not prevent me from getting aggressive prostate cancer. I still eat them, but do not expect any health benefit out of them wrt prostate cancer.

Cheers, SeosamhH !!

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Understood, and agreed. We use statistics as if this retrospective population data can, in some definitive manner, lay out our prospective individual chances as if these can be predetermined. It is like standing on the back of a ship and - only through looking at its wake - determine the ship's exact course.

However, this post shows the varietal strength of the human conviction and intellect, which really is posing the question "What if?..." and pushing an agenda forward regardless of - or maybe because of - the paucity of data. Why not? The majority of medicines come from some sort of primordial homeopathic analog that has been appropriately studied, refined, and put into general use.

And, with much humor, I sometimes find myself wondering if I had simply pushed my love of Indian cuisine at lunch with my friends over the years, or at home with my family.....if this was somehow my body's way of telling me that this was better...healthier...for me as an individual....well, what if, Whatsin? .... :) Cheers.

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Excellent post, SeosamhM.

You have grasped very quickly the essence of what I was saying.

Yes, Bombay is now known as Mumbai. Since 1996. I was born in 1956 when the city was called Bombay. Unless where absolutely required, I will refer to my city as Bombay. Dumb, communal politicians don't change anything for me :-)

Cheers and all the very best to you.

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Fish--if it is a supplement--our friend will find a negative and remind you it was not studied according to Medical Procedures, passed down for over a century, going thru 3 trials, and then peer reviewed papers, and then FDA approved. I once mentioned one approval I needed--back in about 1990--do you know how I got around their denial, and got approval---I used a special 3rd Party Counselor, from NYC who provided a check of 150,000 dollars to who? I was never to know. My controller just said to me, sign the cashiers check.

I love the fact that this full proof process, has caused the FDA to pull and ban 50 top tier drugs from the years 2000, to 2014--that were used from 10-20 years, because they finally found out they caused harmful permanent side effects, and death. Well what the hell happened to their perfect system of approval. Man can truly F-up, but put seven in a room and they can destroy an entire species.

Nalakrats

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The people in India have a lower incidence of PCa than in the West...maybe it's voodoo... I'll ask Janiva....

I'll keep taking it until I find a reason otherwise...

Don Pescado

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How much you take daily in mgs.

3-6 capsules of 500 mg? Or more? Some RDs suggest 3 gm daily!

Which brand is bettee?

The opposition party said "Life Extensions products are unsafe??"

I bought some good quality organic turmaric from India in powder form, and mixing 1 tablespoon with one cup of V8 tomato juice + 1/4 black paper powder and drink this once daily will try to make it twice daily!

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Sounds good....I take it 2 x a day--one of the LE Biocurcumin with ginger and a capsule with 15 mg bioperine..I'd just take 2 glasses a day if you got the stuff...

Take care,

Fish

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3 a day will keep it detectable in the blood, 24/7 if taken every 8 hours.

Nalakrats

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Great song, Don. I added it to my iTunes library. 😎

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From my prior reply using stats extracted from the links that you and Nal provided:

". . . we get an inferred true rate of 75 to 136.5 per 100,000/year [EDIT: in India] and the quoted US rate [110.4 per 100,000/year] lies almost in the middle of this range."

So, there MAY not be a lower incidence of PCA in India.

Proof of efficacy is most likely needed and probably not just a measurement of PSA depression. What if someone invented or found a compound that bound to PSA and made it undetectable with current testing methods? I'm not at all saying that curcumin does this, just a scenario to consider in the justification for more than just bioavailability and PSA depression possibly being needed to get FDA approval as a PCA drug.

I frequently take a devil's advocate position to try to extract information.

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Yes, TA proposed that radiographic progression or regression be used rather than PSA. My MO says," I view stable disease as a win."...Does a slower progression equal win??...I think so...The problem is in the measurement d/t micrometastasis IMHO..

Are tumors forming that are not visible yet but become visible..(sigh)...While tests like the Axumin and Gallium PSMA have improved detectability at a lower PSA and smaller tumors, to ever get ahead of the game, we need something to detect when the PSA is undetectable ...again IMHO...Thus, the challenge of radiographic measurability...

Thanks for the reply...

Fish

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One last thought...besides detecting when PSA is undetectable, we need to be able to detect at 1mm or so...by doing that...we could find large micrmet areas and possibly deal with them...Science is getting there and I have.....hope !!!

Fish

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On the wrong track--wait till I do the big Post I have been promising.

Nalakrats

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What is their life expectancy compared to the west? You might find the answer there, given PCa is generally a mature mans disease.

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I'm interested in the details of this subject that you brought up:

" I once mentioned one approval I needed--back in about 1990--do you know how I got around their denial, and got approval---I used a special 3rd Party Counselor, from NYC who provided a check of 150,000 dollars to who? I was never to know. My controller just said to me, sign the cashiers check."

Yes, man can truly F-up. I am a man. I am imperfect. I make mistakes. How about you?

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I make mistakes every day. The details you ask for I will only say had to do with a seafood, and the vacuum tumbling under high pressure, a slew of ingredients, to improve an established Product--for a large Billion Dollar Company. I am not about to identify myself, by providing more details. The issue is well known, in some quarters. The 1940's Code Of Federal Regulations for this new product had to be changed to allow the commercialization, of the final finished resulting Product, which came under FDA control. I was not allowed to know the details of how it was pulled off--I only knew the Attorney. One such incident before this occurred in 1977, with a famous Roast Beef Fast Fooder---who use to actually serve whole Muscle Roast Beef Sandwiches--well that got to be too expensive--so thusly we/I created what we call a reformed Roast, with bits of Whole muscle. and chopped meat. Now the Standard of Identity by the Federal Gov't clearly Identifies Roast Beef as having to be whole Muscle---yet there are 4 chains today using something that is not. My understanding as a close 3rd party this cost someone multi-millions. Just like Aspartame, which failed all human studies, Yet the Searle Company got approved anyway.

Our Gov't sucks---would you say?

Nalakrats

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I believe that our government, while imperfect, beneficially protects and provides for us much more frequently than harming us.

Perfection is not for mankind.

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But illegal Cheating, and stuffing one's pockets at the negative expense of the American people should never happen. But as my God has said Sin is in the Blood.

Just like taking a Manufactured vial of Insulin that costs 7 dollars to manufacture. and charging 300 dollars, where some people without insurance have to go to Canada to buy for 30 Dollars. Killing by extortion should be illegal--and what does our Gov't do--they in congress continue to take lobby money to keep the status quo. How do I know it is 7 dollars--because I know the synthesis, and can cost out the chemicals needed on Alibaba. Yes I may be retired, but still hold one Masters Degree in Organic Synthesis.

Nalakrats

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Sounds a bit like a lament about some of the drawbacks to capitalism. You make some statements along the lines of religious humanism, but you have also made statements about your gains from participating in science and capitalism -- an interesting, but not bad, dichotomy.

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I am a Believing Jew--best of Both Worlds---> the God of the Bible, and a built in acuity, to make money.

Nalakrats

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"and what does our Gov't do--they in congress continue to take lobby money to keep the status quo."

They threw little guy Martin Shkrelii in jail, but Daraprim is still $750.00 a pill.

arstechnica.com/tech-policy...

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This is the predictable result of a "for-profit" healthcare system. What's your life worth? Pay me if you want it. Let the market decide what you are worth.

If we can't have universal healthcare in the US, it should at least be a regulated utility, just like electricity or any other service considered essential.

The opinions expressed here are my own.

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Gregg, as an extreme capitalist--I can agree to one thing about the health care industry, per below*. Trump just signed an executive order that when drug companies advertise, on TV, they have to show the cost of their drug.

I am well aware of the real costs of the materials necessary to synthesis drugs, when I want to be. As a Chemist, I can re-write the synthesis, as this was a Major for one of my Masters, and can then cost out the ingredients/chemicals necessary. The costing is easy, as Alibaba, sells everything, legal and illegal. Some singular drugs we cannot get because a Doc. will not write a script can be obtained, at Alibaba--Like Vit. K3.

*Anyway, the cost of Materials to Retail price for a vial of pills can be as much as a 1,000 to 5,000% mark-up. Yes their is distribution, and the pharmacy has to make a living, But this is outrageous. I did a study on Flexiril, et al. something I take as needed. One Pound 454 grams costs about $2.40, in Raw Materials. 30 tablets without insurance is 80 Dollars. 30 Capsules are about 3 grams. The raw material cost for that vial of 30 tablets is 1.6 cents. That the pharmacy charges 80 dollars--of course your insurance will pick up 80%. So before insurance kicks in, the cost ratio to Raw Material cost to Retail Price is exactly 5,000%. Now this is the kind of shit that needs to be eliminated. I started to Cost Xtandi, but got interrupted.

So as a supplier to McDonald's at one time this is how it works with them. You have to disclose and prove your manufacturing costs, and then you negotiate your profit margin. So some thing that cost me 1.50 they said I could have the business at 2.75. And as such I would be exclusive. This is per pound. And it was millions of pounds. Well this is how the drug industry should work. They Show some Consumer Agency--does not have to be Govt. their cost of Manufacturer, and a retail price range is set, based on Transportation, and some other cost issues. A drug as I described above should be no more than 2 Dollars---not 80 dollars---and no copay would be necessary, which reduces Insurance costs for everyone. I am still a Capitalist but 5,000% is out of bounds.

I use to giggle when I could make 100% on something.

You have no idea how bad it is. We do this and all of a sudden the Hospital systems are going to have to take a look at their costs. Many are now being forced to disclose what a procedure costs. So if you need a Knee replacement and it is 30,000 dollars at one hospital you take that number and bid it out at another hospital, maybe you get it for 25,000--I understand you want the best Doctor---but if someone has done 500 procedures, I trust them.

Anyway, I am done on this subject--just spoiled my evening--as it pisses me off to what our Drug Industry gets away with---for what they pay their lobbyists to buy off congress, we could probably pay for all the Food Stamps in this country--they are all pigs.

Nalakrats

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"Just like Aspartame, which failed all human studies, Yet the Searle Company got approved anyway."

The Searle family, everything from hiring ex Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld as their CEO prior to the Aspartame approval, to being found in possession of Artwork stolen by the Nazi's. It's not so much that "our Gov't sucks" as it is that certain people suck.

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Welcome aboard the train, where there are some passengers in the know.

Nalakrats

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I agree with you Fish, on the one hand they allege curcumin doesn't work -- but on the other hand they admit it lowers ones PSA. (which that is about all Lupron does but with major side effects)

Then they claim it is only bio available for 30 minutes and has no effect -- yet claim you should stop taking it several days prior to PSA testing.

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Go figure--how about there is a big fish story somewhere within!

Be Good.

Nalakrats

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Just to clarify, he never said you should stop taking it prior to PSA testing because it lowers PSA. He said it "masks PSA" and makes it appear lower than it really is. If you want an accurate PSA you should refrain for a few days. If you want an artifically lower PSA, have at it. But do understand what it is you're arguing about. If everyone understood accurately, there would be no argument.

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No, go read my responses to him....he states it stays in your system for a half hour and is ineffective, and then says to stay off it for days prior to testing...as I pointed out to him, the dose would be a 1/256th of the initial dose using straight line pharmacodynamics after only 4 hours and according to him does not build a measureable level through multiple dosing...Now, explain how that could lead to an artificially lower PSA because he couldn't....then, he started hedging about cancer patients "might" have slower hepatic clearance due to epigenetics, genetics, other meds...

Logically, they do not correlate.... I have had 3 posts deleted because I actually encouraged him to look at his responses to others, questioning his sincere desire to teach or lead vs belittling and bullying...

He does not have a desire to teach or lead gently...it is his opinion that is the only one that counts...If that is what you endorse, then follow him...As he said, he knows more than all the Life Extension scientists and Nalakrats too... his head will not go through the doorway....

Cheers,

Fish

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No doubt you caught him--and he has been quiet all day-----probably working his blog business.

Nalakrats

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No.....wondering how many saw my 3 posts that were deleted and are looking at him in a new light or trying to figure what to say.....

How many more newbies have to get beat up by him before things change?

Will allowing new posters to suffer make the forum better? I believe not...Reminds me of education in the earlier days--if we just whack their knuckles harder I am sure they will comprehend...

Fish

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My Man...you summed it up well...their position is all over the place...his last response to me was an attempt at a giant straddle....as I told someone else... It does not correlate... Hope all is well with you...all good??

Fish

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Yeah---good--with Alternative Medical Doctor today--he ordered my Cholera Vaccination, but the Health Dept Says they do not do it if you are over 64. I think I posted on this as a way with Low Burden Pca, that the vaccination Scrambles the messaging to Dormant Pca Cells so they may not get a signal to wake and divide.

And we are doing something Homeopathically for Allergies, Pollen, and Sinus Infections--a new Herb I was introduced to--it is wild--may Post on it, just for Health Reasons. Garden is becoming like Eden, over 800 Bulbs were put in the ground for this year--Finding Time to Go to The Outer Banks and Fish?????---May is one of the Best Months--for King, Spanish, Pompano Blue---I mean we just got back from Florida, March 1st--for the Winter---wife will kill me, If I drag her and the Cat to the Beach in the middle of Garden Season. Life is Good--would be better without Pca.

Nalakrats

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Nalakrats,

If you are referencing the Dukoral vaccine, I will be picking some up when I go to see Dayatatime for a fishing trip in mid June on the St Lawrence River--crossing over into Canada for some... Familiar with Pompano--yellowtails I believe they call them in SC--good eating from what I hear...Will be catching Walleyes in upstate NY. We are busy planting veggies for the year...lots of tomatoes, hot peppers, cucumbers, etc.. Life is Good !!! Good luck surf fishing....I still need to make plans to surf fish with Ken in NY, visit with jdm3, and time with LuLu in the fall....and of course, Israel in 8 days--WOW !!!

Fish

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I understand there is an Oral Dukoral Vaccine--need to run it down and get hold of either the injectable or the oral---there is great indications that this could be valuable to us. Let me know what you know--was turned down today by my local Health Department.

Nalakrats

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Looking at driving into Canada and picking it up at a pharmacy--dosed orally-- initial dose and then 6 weeks later...Let me know....can pick you up some if needed and shipped to you on ice/dry ice--has to be refrigerated I believe...

Fish

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Vaccine may require Refrig. The Oral dose may not. I am looking at how to get here, but 100% open for you to supply a 2 year Booster--as that is the life, of the Vaccine.

Nalakrats

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Let me know the deal and the correct handling of the product from a safety point of view.

Nalakrats

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Will do....looks like you mix it up from a vial--powdered form what I read earlier--this may be totally fine to ship at room temperature....found info from a pharmacy in Canada..

Fish

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Thanks

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Send me a link for the info on how Dukoral stops messaging--I take it mRNA--I have seen the epidemiological studies for Dukoral, but not this other...

Thanks,

Fish

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Do not have it--copied it for my doctor---I think if you go to Google, and Search Cholera Vaccine and Prostate Cancer, it will come up.

Nalakrats

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I went thru 3 hours of hell trying to find a way to get the Vaccine--my Doctor has written the order, but no one can fill it. Finally found the Oral Dukoral---they at Sam'sPharmacy, Quoted---269 dollars---Yikes---the cost if traveling to Haiti, by a Passport Services Clinic, is about free--cost of Injectable Vaccine is pennies. Manufacturers under Sanofi---are in India, and Bermuda--no direct e-mail contacts.

So right now stuck---I tried my supplier in Canada, Canada Drugs Online---they could not help--had no way to get it.

Nalakrats

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Ok....let's message each other and get off this post... Darryl would say this is personal stuff and not board related...that is what he used for my 3 deletions stating I was addressing TA and not board related issues...not sure why a recommendation to teach or lead gently and not beat newbies is a "personal message" and not forum related....whatever....

Fish

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I'm interested in this information on Dukoral. I haven't heard of it before. I haven't had time to google but will this weekend. Thanks to you both for what you bring to the board.

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You are most welcome...For my part, I am aware of an epidemiological study of Swedish men involving about 7,500---who had the vaccine post PCa diagnosis and compared to those who did not get the vaccine, there was a significantly higher survival rate in the vaccine group. Nal mentioned a study on the vaccine slowing/stopping tumorigenesis by interrupting mRNA--I have to google it. We are all here to learn from others and seek a survival advantage if we can. Good luck...

Fish

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Thank you!

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Hi Fish,

I posted the article on Dukoral about 3 months ago. After which my wife and I flew to Toronto Canada from Houston 2 months ago and bought Dukoral (over the counter - no prescription needed). It does say it should be refrigerated (which we did in a carry on bag with ice from airport concession) but can be kept at room temp for a week ONE time. Good for 2 years. Dukoral is only oral -- easy to take costs about $150 USD. the only available Cholera vaccine in the U.S. is an injection and only lasts 3 or 4 months. it is different than the Dukoral formula --- I do not know if it would have the same beneficial effect on PCa as Dukoral.

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Thanks George71.....when I travel to NY, I will be getting the vaccine....it says though it is 2 separate vials taken 1-6 weeks apart....I have never had the cholera vaccine.....Is this the booster.?? How have you been doing, brother??

Fish

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I'm doing good, thanks for asking -- How about you?

See my post a few minutes earlier on this same thread about Dukoral -- You mix one dry packet of vaccine with small glass of water and drink immediately -- then wait 4 to 6 weeks and mix second packet with small glass of water and drink for full dose.

In 18 to 24 months you only take a single packet dose (booster) they last refrigerated for about 2 years. They sell it in single dose box (booster) or two dose (full dose) box. I bought 2 full dose boxes so I would not have to go back to Toronto for 3 or 4 years.

nature.com/articles/s41467-...

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Which named Drug Store did you use, in Toronto?

Nalakrats

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Shoppers Drug mart -- 18 Lower Jarvis -- Toronto Canada

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Thanks for the info--I will be crossing over near Ogdensburg/Prescott bridge most likely....I'll look into it more as I get closer to my trip. I am doing well...Work goes on...4 1/2 years till 65--trying to work 3 and Cobra the rest till Medicare kicks in... we'll see...Take care, amigo...

Fish

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Go to Google and Search Cholera Vaccine and Prostate Cancer.

Nalakrats

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Thank you!

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" Table 1. After a mean age of 7.2 years and accumulated 6033 person-years of follow-up, 29 of them had died due to prostate cancer, giving a mortality rate of 4.8 per 1000 person-years, whereas the rate was 22.5 for those patients who did not use cholera vaccine. Use of cholera vaccine was associated with a decreased mortality rate, as compared to patients without cholera vaccination.."

"Risk of death due to all the causes

"In Table 3, we show the risk of overall mortality among patients with prostate cancer who used cholera vaccine. The overall mortality rate was 9.4 per 1000 person-years for patients using cholera vaccine, whereas the rate was 48.3 for those who do not use cholera vaccine. A decreased overall mortality rate was found among patients using cholera vaccine, as compared with patients without cholera vaccination use, with a crude HR of 0.27 (95% CI 0.21–0.35) and an adjusted HR of 0.53 (95% CI 0.41–0.69). The decreased mortality rate was largely consistent, irrespective of age at diagnosis, clinical stage at diagnosis, and disposable income."

nature.com/articles/s41467-...

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Yes we need to bring this main stream. There is a brand new Injectable approved by the FDA, very recent, with a life of 2 years for protection. Cannot find it anywhere. I can get mine[Dukoral] at Sam's Pharmacy for 269 dollars--without having to fly to Canada. But I am relying on others like Fish, and yourself to do this right. My Doctor, sent an Order in to the Health Dept. And they denied me the vaccine because I was over 64, and not travelling to a country like Haiti.

Our F-in Govt. does it again--offers not life but some form of another misery, by saying no to a Doctor's order.

Nalakrats

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I ran into the same problem -- So my wife and did it like a mini vacation (4 days) Houston to Toronto -- It cost us about $1600 air fare round trip and hotel - you can see Niagara Falls while there. The drug store was about 4 blocks from the hotel (5 minute taxi ride) -- I can give you hotel info if you want.

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I archived the Drug store from your post--I still have near a million frequent flyer miles.

Nalakrats

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Shoppers Drug Mart -- is a drugstore chain in Canada -- apparently over 1100 locations. Your air miles makes it even better!

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My problems with supplements are in the fact that I can’t test the results. I came from a scientific background by trade so everything I do I have to test the results and judge. Since I got sick with PC, I have tried most of the supplements available and all failed to stop a rising PSA. so, either I am doing something wrong or these supplements do not work period. So, UNTIL someone comes up with a good way to gauge its use, I can not rely on them for myself. Even the POMI-T which had some research supporting its use, also failed to stop my rising psa. Very frustrating to me.

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You can buy the Life Extension Product--thought I made that clear, that they had the technology necessary to overcome Bio-availability, and half life, and if you want Curcumin in your body 24/7--it would tale one capsule 3 times a day. Please read what I write. Amazon, has a deal--where you can buy 3 bottles at a time. I am not a paid spokesman for LE.

Nalakrats

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I double checked their "evidence" (always a good idea for suspicious internet sites). What it says was their "evidence" was from a 2007 paper submitted for publication, but never published. This is the value of peer review - when flaky research can't get published and is nonetheless submitted as evidence, it calls the website that provides it as "proof" into question. Be careful about your sources!

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The claim is made on the bottle, and cannot be made without the knowledge and blessing of the FDA. They performed Clinical Human Trials and measured the Curcumin in the blood. Because there was no peer reviewed paper, does not mean the work was not valid. If you make a claim beyond the words----> dietary supplement, then these terms must have FDA approval, within the FDA rules of GRAS[generally regarded as safe], The patent may help you accept its use, when you read it. I would not down play their research and development group. They have been leading edge, in the supplemental field, and their knowledge, far exceeds yours, and mine. Because they apply their knowledge to their own magazine on Health and Nutrition---> they do this to be informative to a general public. Consumer articles, are from in-house valid research. You cannot accept that there are things that are as claimed, unless the Medical standard of peer review is used and then published in an approved Journal. You are missing half the flowers in the garden, my friend.

Nalakrats

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The FDA does not approve claims other than safety and efficacy. You can print anything else on the bottle you like. Patents are granted for new formulations, regardless of efficacy and safety. Their (Life Extension's) knowledge may exceed yours- I cannot say - but it does not exceed mine. The same data is available to everyone. They are in business to hoodwink people into buying their supplements. Anyone can make any unfounded claim about pharmacodynamics if it is not published in a peer reviewed journal. A little skepticism goes a long way - the flowers you admire may be plastic.

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No you cannot print anything you want on a bottle--You cannot make false claims of Human Trial results on a bottle. This would be illegal.

If you think it is illegal, you may sue the FDA, and the Company for False claims. That is what I meant that some people ought to stay in their own lanes. One word mistake on a bottle of Salad Dressing with Lipton Tea, caused them to be sued along with the FDA, for millions. I came to the rescue to reformulate--but it was too late as to the money. The word Artificial was not used, instead Natural: that was the mistake.

Mc'Donalds got sued because they had the Words Beef Flavor on their Box of Fries, that someone dug out of the garbage, behind a store. This group was a Vegetarian Leftest Anarchy Group. The FDA says when using a flavor you must describe the taste as being what you put on your label. This Flavor had no meat components, all Vegetarian, and Amino acids, and sugars, yet tasted like beef. So Mc'Donalds following FDA rules labeled the flavor Beef Flavor. Mc'Donalds settled out of court for 12 million dollars--because Mc'donalds decided it was best to not disclose the formula to protect the technology. I was a one time contributor, to this label.

You cannot preach to me about labels my friend, the FDA, GRAS, and what rules must be followed. So if you think you can prove that what Life Extension has on their Curcumin label is unproven and without merit--then sue them.

Nalakrats

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That's incorrect. The FDA only monitors claims of safety and efficacy by supplement manufacturers (this is unlike manufactured food and real pharmaceuticals - your examples of MsD's and Lipton are irrelevant). Occasionally they check that what the manufacturer claims is in the bottle is really in the bottle. Often, it is not and the product is recalled. The FCC monitors truth in advertising, but is underfunded to check every bottle label.

The following info is required on every supplement label:

• a statement of identity that contains the words "dietary supplement." The word "dietary" may be replaced by the name of the dietary ingredient (e.g., "ginseng supplement")

• net quantity of contents (for example, "60 capsules")

• nutrition information in the form of a "Supplement Facts" panel, including the product serving size, the amount, and percent daily value, if established, of each dietary ingredient

• if a supplement contains a proprietary blend, the net weight of the blend as well as a listing of each ingredient in descending order of weight must be identified

the part of the plant used, if an herb or botanical

• the name and place of business of the manufacturer, packer, or distributor

• a complete list of ingredients by their common or usual names, either in descending order of prominence or with the source of the dietary ingredient in the • "Supplement Facts" panel following the name of the dietary ingredient (for example, calcium (from calcium carbonate))

• safety information that is considered "material" to the consequences that may result from the use of the supplement

• the disclaimer "This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease" if the supplement bears a claim to affect the structure or function of the body (structure/function claim), a claim of general well-being, or a claim of a benefit related to a classical nutrient deficiency disease.

At their discretion, manufacturers may add additional information on labels (such as claims and statements of quality assurance), and may decide on the placement of that information on their labels.

FDA does not regulate claims about manufacturing processes, or pharmacodynamics.

Here is the relevant law, which you may want to familiarize yourself with:

oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei...

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They do not regulate claims but can be involved when law suits occur. And there are Standards Of Identity, that also come into play---calling something Roast Beef when is ifs reformed Mush, vacuum formed into a Roast is a violation, the workings with the FDA, is much more complicated than you looking up rules and pasting them into one of your Ditty's. I commend you on your use of the computer. I use other attributes--and this evening is over--glad you had fun.

Nalakrats

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I'm glad that we can at least agree on the truth of the facts I presented. Here is also the FDA rules about supplements that you may wish to familiarize yourself with:

fda.gov/food/dietary-supple...

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No we do not agree to all the nuances you do not see in the public info your computer found--I spent 45 years in the middle of it, and do not need your help. Still have my Code of Federal Regulations, that often times trumps your listing of Rules.

As to that Lipton situation, you down played. I was in the Court Room, as a witness. Also representing the Gov't was a member of one of the FDA Label Regulation groups, who was a witness for the group that sued. Want to tell me if these are such non-non things--why was the Gov't in attendance, basically against Lipton. Lipton did lose. Over a word, on a label.

You have not lived the DEAL, day after day, while consulting for many of the top 100 companies that may make something that goes down your gullet. You have never had to deal with at my last my last count in 2005, 22 different Federal and State Agencies relative to something that goes down your throat including any alcohol, or tobacco product. You have to Live the Game and Play in it, to really know it. Copying articles, papers, and regulations, just makes you a parrot. Weaving thru the maze, and being one of a few top experts in my field's, comes with doing the work, in these fields, while traveling 26 countries dealing with overseas affiliates, having different regulations, in each country. Why would McDonald's, have me on the seventh floor with their test Kitchen, and working with their regulations Dept. If it is so clear as you copy, then why would McDonald's need to have a V/P of Regulatory, and a staff of 20 people, and me as back-up. You mean to say, they could not read the rules. Think again. Someone paid for my Rolls Royce's.

Nalakrats

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You don't seem to understand that the FDA rules for food are different from the FDA rules for supplements.

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Yes I do! especially if used to fortify foods.

Nalakrats

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And from the troops/members, I think I have had over 40 members, that wrote to me on messenger---thanking me---guess they did not want to get into the middle.

Nalakrats

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Only 40?

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You are always so helpful. Are there any supplements - that are safe - that can be taken to minimize the hot flashes created from Lupron????

Thanks to you Nalakrats

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You may find Ginseng, but it might be difficult to sleep if you use this during the late evening--or towards bed time--but for day time SE's it might work.

Nalakrats

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Thanks - I just use exercise to overcome my blahs. Would ginseng tone done the hot flashes??

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During the day it should, but as a stimulant it might not be good near bed time.

Nalakrats

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Thanks so much for your valuable information

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Looks like we have another (I'm right) brawl on our hands.

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The information they share in their “debates” is golden.

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That's your take on this pissing contest.Try making your own opinions instead of worshiping 2 guys out to prove they have a bigger penis than the other. They aren't sharing a damn thing, they are out to lead gerbils off a cliff . You really need to think for yourself.

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I want to be like Magnus PI and live another 30 years with this disease.

The knowledge that I’ve gained from the big three on this site may make it possible.

I’m thinking I’m in a very good place right now.

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Who are the big three--maybe I can learn something.

Nalakrats

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You, Patrick, and TA I guess... You big players you....LOL...

Don Pescado

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Well whatever I bring--remember it is God Given!

Nalakrats

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"Who are the big three...?"

I once heard that question answered with, "Me, myself, and I".

Best to all.

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I agree 100%. The arguments are often amusing and always informative. I personally have no problem with the back and forth. I suck it all in, do my own research and make a decision. Having these incredibly active and brilliant guys state their opinions is a huge positive for this sight. Thank you gentlemen!! Please don’t stop espousing what you believe

Schwah

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100% agree with you, Bill68. Thank you for speaking your mind. I am sure there are others like I that dislike this senseless ego trip (on both sides).

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I liken it to dogs pissing to mark their territory. There is room for all.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......oh maaann.....lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol,

"I liken it to dogs pissing to mark their territory" :-)

"Two guys out to prove they have a bigger penis than the other." :-)

This BB is filled with humor, no one can deny that :-)

Thanks for the laughs :-) ROFLMAO :-)

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My penis is now quite small--first the surgery, and then 20 months of ADT. So I will admit Tall_Allen has by far the biggest dong, probably 3X mine. Remember he is cured!

Nalakrats

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Hahahahahahahaha.....lol, lol, lol, lol, lol,....the laughs continue :-) :-) :-)

The award for the biggest "dong" by far, goes to the cured Tall_Allen :-)

And, if laughter is the best medicine, I might just get a "wee" bit better myself :-)

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I usually start to be skeptical when any website has these (CYA) legalese warnings, regardless of what they may claim on their info/sales pages and packaging:

"These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease."

And also, perhaps, "The information on this Website or in ... e-mails is designed for educational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for informed medical advice or care. This information should not be used to diagnose or treat any health problems or illnesses without consulting a doctor."

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I have Dark Mustard with my Kosher Hot Dog. Others like Ketchup--ugh! Anything printed on a label such as their claim of finding Bio-Activity of Curcumin, at 8 hours, during human trials, is a red flag requiring some sort of agreement/Acknowledgement/ok with the FDA---it might be on an MS-Handling Document. But a statement like this is illegal, without proof, and would be considered a major felony. If you think this is not valid, I suggest the same thing I said to TA--sue them. They have been supplying this for 12 years--the only complaints I have heard, is why does it take a month for my Arthritis pain to go away--the answer, in speaking with their Head of R&D is the now co-use of CO2 Extracted Ginger, which allows for the body to build up stores. Like to see your 5 degrees, and how many times you spent in front of the FDA, on issues as this, or getting approvals from submitted documents.

Nalakrats

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" Like to see your 5 degrees, and how many times you spent in front of the FDA, on issues as this, or getting approvals from submitted documents."

Hmmmmm, an "ad hominem" push-back, huh? My degree in math/physics and former professional career/life experience will just have to do, I guess. Ha. Ha.

As for anybody buying Life Extension supplements and other products for whatever reason(s), they might as well also follow some of the history and the money trails of millions of dollars, and throw some of that into the mix as they make their own, fully-informed decisions about the products they personally buy, and from whom they buy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_...

expressnews.com/news/local/...

browardpalmbeach.com/news/b...

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BS: Chemistry----- City College of New York

MS: Organic Synthesis Chemistry----Fairleigh Dickinson Univ.

MS: Food Chemistry---North Carolina State Univ.

MS: Diet and Nutrition---Rutgers Univ.

MS: Food Science/Emphasis on Seafood---Florida State Univ.

Next I can give you my 6 Publications.

And I can then follow that with 6 Patents un-related to Publications

Oh an one Honorary Doctorate--For Life's Work

Anything Else--Mr!

Nalakrats

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Bio-activity or bio-availability? I am expecting some spin about not able to have bio-activity without bio-availability, but the activity is not being claimed is it?

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Thank you, Nalakrats.

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For what it's worth - it was suggested to my husband by an integrative MO to take 8 grams of Curcumin w/BioPerine daily. She mentioned it was for inflammation purposes. My husband has been taking this dosage since dx in 11/17. It has not stopped disease progression, it may or may not be part of his "naturopathic" tool box to greatly help with QoL, he's doing so many things to offset side effects of meds. He feels well and continues to work.

It also has not given us a 'false' lower PSA result (2 - 4 grams taken before blood draw depending upon a.m. or p.m. draw) which has been doubling over the last few months.

This is our experience with Curcumin, it may not be the same for others.

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You may want to try the Life Extension Product, I mentioned--do not know what you are using---but the LE product does not require Bioperine, due to its bio-availability.

Nalakrats

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bioperine is the 'availibility' in the brand my husband is taking - it's not a separate pill.

What is in the bio-curcumin from LE that makes it easier to absorb? The specific ingredient?

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It is in their Patent described by a letter and a number. They state you do not need Bioperine, but I use it anyway, as I take other Supplemental molecules with high molecular weighs that have poor absorbability.

Nalakrats

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My feeling is things like curcumin, green, tea, birm, resveratrol etc etc should be regimentally ingested and monitored and reliably recorded and journaled on this site as a crowdsourcing resource for us all...isn't that the reason we're all here. Try fail learn adjust repeat until successful.....i see this as a social null hypothetical test ground for any and all possible comers leading us out of our nightmae maze ever closer to a cure.

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I do for myself--but a certain person would call my personal results anecdotal--which they would be--so I do not go there.

Nalakrats

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Awesome post, JB! Huzzah!

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Agreed ,The only thing we have to loss is APC . Personally I’ll try anythin* I like in my fight to push away death .

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grateful for the disclaimer and disclosure

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Glad you appreciate it...im determined to walk in the same path that I encourage all those suffering stride, limp, and sadly hobble on.....united we stand! 👨‍🔬 and together we succeed.

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I recently posted a response about PSA being masked by not one supplement but recently several supplements have been said to mask or possibly mask PSA.

"They" don't make old sayings for nothing. Old sayings can be likened to time tested folk psychology. "Apples and trees", "leopards and spots" and--"curiosity killed the cat".

Many of the supplements taken by some of us prevent the clustering and metastasizing of cancer cells. I consider my body to be a small scale lab with daily happenings going on inside. Whatever is added or not added to this small scale lab that is my body changes what happens inside it on a scale that the best imaging techniques and tests have yet to identify.

I take many supplements daily. Should I be so curious, or follow the advice of a doctor that is curious about a true PSA reading that I stop my supps perhaps giving cancer cells a chance to cluster and metastasize?

Recently a member of HealthUnlocked posted a study that ended by posing the question to be determined by a statement in the time worn, type of "more study needs to be done" sort, that the PSA antigen itself causes cancer by it's effect on cells. It might be a good idea to suppress PSA as much and as long as possible. Isn't that the reason for the success of ADT?

As for curcumin, I take LE's Advanced Bio Curcumin with Ginger & Tumerones with one of their Advanced Bio Curcumin capsules as well. I follow it with two grams of organic ginger, ground black pepper or a piperine supp and bromelain to get the maximum absorption. I do so at least 2X daily and usually 3X. On a lighter note, my skin color has not as of yet changed! I take many supps to prevent clustering and metastasizing. Knowing my PSA is not as important as continuing the quality of life that I still have.

Currumpaw

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Good for you!. I commend your approach---we could probably talk for hours on what you and I do. My Best To You.

Nalakrats

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Thanks,

I'm off to sit for about 3 hours and have a 100,000 mg vitamin C IV infusion.

Currumpaw

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Who are you using--as I am sure they are members of ACAM.

Nalakrats

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Like the C ..

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Thank you for that post. Now I don’t feel so bad about taking my supplements.

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Put me down as a "nay-sayer". There will always be people who will try to make money off of human tragedies like storm disasters and cancer. Please don't be fooled, follow your doctor's medical advice.

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Oh the doctor with a total of 6 hours/credits of Nutrition in His/Her total schooling. Who is told by his/her drug detailers, all they need to know. I had my first 3 degrees, probably before your Doctor was born. And though I do not provide prescriptions for curing , or off-setting the effects of certain diseases--I have cured/ many 100's, in personal one and one consultation, as to Heart Disease, A-Fib, Diabetes, High Blood Pressure, RLS, Muscle Cramping, Metabolic Syndromes, Depression, prevention of Strokes, curing Cataracts without surgery, reversing Senility, and a whole host of things.

There is an association of fully Doctored MD's who are schooled in Internal Medicine, well over 10,000 of them that have turned to Naturopathy, who also employ Orthodox Medicine when needed. And this association, ACAM, has existed since the 1950's.

My MD is one--I do not know it all, for sure. I came to him a few months ago with Tinnitus, And feared I would be put on one of those 500 dollar a month medications, they advertise on TV. He laughed then said, do I know Cats Claw?--I said it is a root of a Bush. He said go to the Health Store buy a Bottle---14 dollars by the way and use for 30 days--taking 2 a day. Guess what he cured my Tinnitus for 14 Dollars. Think your regular Docs--knows of this---this is just an example, of what is unknown.

Have a Good Day.

Nalakrats

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Makes me glad I live in the U.K. All this talk of supplements seems to me to be a cheap alternative to expensive pharmaceuticals. I’ve only ever taken one supplement in my life, about 45 years ago when I needed Vitamin B due to a crap diet.

I’ve posted before my remarkable journey due to Abiraterone which I have been given free of charge for the last 7.5 years. No supplements, no dietary changes, no voodoo medicine. Alcohol twice a week (sometimes to excess) and a well balanced diet.

I don’t believe in anyone’s God, there are too many, and it’s always “mine is best, so because you don’t believe in mine, I need to kill you”

Religion has caused nothing but pestilence. And on the basis that some believe their God created everything, he also gave me Prostate Cancer. How loving.

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Well as us good believers do--I just prayed for you and that your Zytiga never stops working.

Nalakrats

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TommyTV your voice is heard and respected by me although I’m in an opposing camp, I respect your right to speak and follow your own path . The more we see and hear opposing viewpoints the better our scope of reality . You are correct , In the name of religion grave atrocities have been committed . Always better to have an external enemy to wage war against then to examine our own corruption at home . The hootsies against the tootsies , because they’re on the other side of the river. Human nature sucks ..I do believe in God , as you said , I think APC has been been with us men since the dawn of man . Take care TommyTV ...

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I've had high pitched ringing for 18 years, not bad enough to lose sleep over but I'm willing to spend 14 bucks to get rid of it. So what brand and dosage should I look for? Prefer Amazon a source. TIA.

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Try Swanson's Cats Claw---recommended by my Alternative Med. Doctor. It took about 6 weeks for relief---take twice a day--but follow the Label recommendation. I forgot my dose--I remember doubling up on it though.

Nalakrats

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You are ,what you wish ...to be

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Dear Scorpio....its fine that you chose not to follow our treatment adjuvants....but it isn't to accuse us of flimflam and fraud...we're all here attempting to better our faint hopes...When I questioned my doctor on whether my low bone Mets and raging PSA may be a result of osteoblastic malignancy...he thought for a second and told me all metastatic prosate cancer was osteolytic...I knew at that point I would be directing my own 'protocols'....bring on the turmeric....this rounds on me.

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I might have thrown him out the nearest window.

Nalakrats

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I hope people can identify the dangers of online fraud from those attempting to make money off of cancer with phony cures. Cynical undermining here of peoples' faith in their doctors is akin to climate change denial and other anti-science chicanery.

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IF YOU READ WHAT I WROTE IN MY INITIAL POST--I DID NOT RECOMMEND THAT ANYONE SHOULD TAKE THIS PRODUCT--I JUST REPORTED ON INFORMATION THAT I GATHERED FROM COMMUNICATION WITH THE COMPANY, who claimed enhanced bio-availability and 1/2 life, with a patent on this.

You are just making up bull****

Nalakrats

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A square peg can not fit in a round hole .

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I am a believer in curcumin. Currently we take the C3 product. I buy bosmeric-sr and AFI Curcumin. I have used the Rev Genetics curcumin product.. but I have been frustrated that their pills break open in the bottle and I end up with yellow hands when I take it.. it has happened on several bottles.

I would love opinions on the Bosmeric-sr/C3 product versus the Life Extension product. I have generally liked things from Life extension so I am considering trying it. I think sometimes rotating brands can be a good thing.. plus I am looking for anything that might help my husbands pain(from Neuropathy due to chemo)

Sending you all hugs, prayers, and love!

Softwaremom

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👏

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I am a consumer of curcumin and have been for many years.

it is all about fighting back / anti-inflammation, but it can be and is much more.

I take 4 capsules at a time, once daily, of a brand that is very high tech and truly bio-available. It is branded 'Curcummatrix' (180 caps). My naturopathic doctor intructed me to change my dosing profile to maximize the benefit.

In addition, during some sophisticated oncological blood work (RGCC Group refers) performed in 2019, curcumin was found to be effective in fighting MY particular variants of the disease.

I do agree (wearing my devils advocate hat) that there are some brands and formulations that are a waste of money.

Buyer beware, as usual, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water .....

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Good for you, and your use of an educated Naturopath--I see mine tomorrow. We fight to win!

Nalakrats

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I love curcumin . Aka turmeric , know worldwide for its health benefits .

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I am thinking of suing all of you. I may need to seek medical attention for the pain in my side. Keep the laughter coming. Another war over cracking an egg on the big end or the little end. My Wednesday has started off well. Enjoy.

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cracking an egg on the big end or the little end? Don't you know you're supposed to crack an egg from the inside.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 05/09/2019 10:51 AM DST

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So that's how the chicken got out of the egg! But why did it cross the road?

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The chicken only went 1/2 way across the road. It wanted to lay it on the line.

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Will remember that one.... thanks....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 05/09/2019 1:17 PM DST

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Remember what the chicken said to the duck who was crossing the road. "Hey dude you better not, you'll never hear the end of it".....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 05/09/2019 1:15 PM DST

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Why did the pervert cross the road? He couldn’t get his d*ck out of the chicken.🤣

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hahahaha 8.0 on the 10 point laugh meter.... Thanks, I needed that...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 05/13/2019 11:27 AM DST

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Any time I cook in a frying pan (at low temp) I load up with olive oil, black pepper and a big grate of curcumin. Of course my hands look like those of a chain smoker.

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Good for you!

Nalakrats

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Hahaha

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I assume however that you agree that curcumin may affect PSA test level?

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No I do not. I have had the same PSA reading for 37 months---considered in the middle of a 5 year remission. And I take my PSA every 30 days at exactly 9:30 AM, on an empty Stomach with 2 bottles of Distilled Water, in me to keep hydration levels the same for each test. You cannot get more scientific then this.

Nalakrats

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It did not for me . I just tested it . This a moot point argument ..

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I have nothing to say about the subject.. just wanted to be the 100th reply...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 05/08/2019 8:05 PM DST

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100 don't mean squat when you have a 101 coming up on you.

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Spoil Sport..............

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 05/08/2019 8:12 PM DST

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So funny to read this thread it should be pinned. Maybe i'm in too good humor :)

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🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

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Hahaha lucky 100 😂

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Thank you so much for this info Nalakrats!

🌼Jackie

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Hey Nal . . I’ve been on the meriva and using green tea and eating the ( fresh organic turmeric four years now . I did stop them three days before my latest test per T_A’s suggestion....my results “ Thank God” were no5 masked by the same . I will not stop them again . Peace ..shalom

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The stuff written was BS.

Nalakrats

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We know that .

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[EDIT: I found the problem and am suggesting a different method to embed links, see my next post] Still can't get to your NIH links at the end and have tried various combos and searches but no luck. Would you please copy the links onto separate lines directly into a reply -- pressing return after pasting a link on a new line makes it clickable/directly followable.

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Nal,

I've got to quality control your initial post and also make recommendations so that when you supply links in the future, that they are easily visited by forum users.

First, simply highlight the link for the article that you are wanting to reference, right-click copy and then paste it into your post. None of this "[https://www.]precedes" is necessary and it just makes it harder to look at the referred to information. Copy and paste is easier and more accurate.

Secondly, you fat fingered when you typed in the number for the first NIH article that you linked to -- should be PMC2792534 (you doubled up the 5's). Refer to my first suggestion above to avoid this in the future. Following are the very easily used links to the articles:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Aren't those much easier to use to get to the information? Now about your frequent use of theory where hypothesis would be more appropriate . . .

merriam-webster.com/words-a...

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I still have a flip phone--and now going for the Jitterbug Phones--there is on phone made by Cingular that is the same size of a credit card--twice as thick--many of us are going back to the cave days. This phone can only make and receive calls---hells bells, I do not even text, or allow texts--I tell people if they want to say something to me to call. Otherwise do not try to contact me.

My wife and I do not answer calls---if it is important they leave a voice mail. Maybe I will call back.

So Farm-Hand--> I am low tech, and going lower. Thanks for the tutorial!

Nalakrats

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Thank you for the ~(thank you) for making your information more usable. I have no idea why you presented the links in the manner that you did and why phones have anything to do with this.

I am quite handy at growing nerds.

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99 % of the readers here just want the conclusions, and some of the data how it got there. So I take things apart and try to put it in plain English, with definitions of words that might not be understood. This is why I have near 300 Followers. The Phone thing was just to tell you I am not going to using any computer tech, as I am going low tech day by day, and getting out of this type way of living.

If I write on a subject, you can then do your own follow up and research to verify things I might present. Most of the Men hear have not finished college, and some of my Followers come from Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, India, and the Philippines, just to name a few. I am not writing to satisfy just you. This was the first time in 3 years I tried to give back-up reference--and what it taught me was to go back in how I did all previous posts.

I purposely in the past and now will continue in the future, Post--leaving readers the opportunity to do their own work. This is a great teaching technique!

Hope you got that--and you can stop posting back to me on this issue, it is getting stale--you know what I mean.

Nalakrats

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I find it fruitful to also look at the articles referenced in the footnotes in the main article. It gives you good information on whether supplementary data/stats or conclusions are from in vitro studies (what cell lines were used?) or in vivo studies and whether in vivo was in mice/rats or humans.

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Yes, there are a few ways that curcumin can be better absorbed in the body. One other type of supplement form not mentioned is a hydro-soluble form that is even better absorbed than those that use black pepper extracts. For dosage level, check with your doctor, or follow the dosing instructions on the supplement that you take. Many are about 1 gram or 1000 mg of turmeric.

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Life Extension Claims with their Co-Extracted Product, that no Black Pepper Extract is required. I am sure there are other technologies.

Nalakrats

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When you hear hucksters like Nal talking about the "supplemental industry" you need to grab onto your wallet to make sure he isn't stealing it from your pocket. Curing prostate cancer is all about the earliest detection possible and proper medical procedures administered by real doctors.

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Scorpio99 I really wish that you would research and educate yourself on the members here before posting.

Nalakrats is an invaluable poster we need more of. His incredible research, postings and disclaimers are amazing. I for one wished we had a 10th of his and others knowledge to arm ourselves with.

No where has he ever, EVER endorsed anything he has written on as we all know every mans cancer is unique and will not respond the same as “in the book”.

I wish you only positive results in your journey, Scorpio99, and I (and hopefully you as well) will continue to read up and educate myself through Nalakrats and others invaluable and selfless research done for ALL of you.

Sheri (cheerleader for you all now)

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I just wanted to throw a vote of appreciation here for Nalakrats and Tall Allen and the others who have added meaningful viewpoints here. Replying with clarity and logic takes valuable time and effort, especially when the discussion continues and intensifies. I love having multiple sides of an issue presented skillfully and accurately for me to evaluate, especially when the presenter's credentials give them particular insight. I find that viewpoints in opposition to my opinions are often enlightening, while information in rebuttals expands my knowledge as well. Thank you both for your contributions! We're all in the same boat, facing the same storm.

In solidarity,

Sunlight

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Hear, Hear!

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Does the Ginger make a difference to absorption, since there is also the Super-Bio-Curcumin 7X absorption from LE where you get more for your money (400mg X 60)

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Both are fine--the Advanced with Ginger, and other Tumerones, combined with Holy Basil and Rosemary, is an attempt between me and LE to replace Zyflamend, which changed its formula. So yes the co-oil solvents create the absorption.

Either will do--your choice as related to Curcumin---I have a longer game plan involving other Herbals, and anti-inflammation. I am trying to keep dormant Pca cells dormant.

Nalakrats

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ok, will take the one with Ginger, thanks!

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