Any taking ADT see a reason not to do this?

[sammamish]

Seems like a no-brainer, unless there is some metabolic PCA stimulating dark side with this supplement?

Me personally, have probably lost 20% muscle strength in only one year on ADT. Also got hit pretty hard on the osteopenia/osteoporosis front.

Effect of β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate (HMB) on muscle strength in older men with prostate cancer (Pca) started on androgen deprivation therapy (ADT): Preliminary results of an open-label, randomized trial.

ascopubs.org/doi/abs/10.120...

[Hidden]

I was hit hard too . Don’t know what to do really?

[sammamish in reply to Hidden]

For starters I persuaded my MO to write a script for estradiol .025 patch. hoping the low dose estradiol will stave off the bone demineralization. Not really too stoked about trying bisphosphonates or Prolia, etc...

As regards muscle mass loss, definitely looking for help here. Exercising like crazy, but cant seem to get on top of it.

[Schwah in reply to sammamish]

Other than golf twice a week, on the advise of my MO, I only do weight training with a trainer about 1 hour twenty three times a week. Brutal workout with my trainer pushing me very hard. Lower weights to avoid injury but with multiple reps and sets all muscle groups . I’ve lost weight, gained muscle gotten stronger and reduced body fat. I have before and after pics to prove if you private message me. It can be done. Cardio alone won’t do it. My weight training actually is cardio too as my heart rate is over 120 most of the hour.

Schwah

[sammamish in reply to Schwah]

So you are saying 3 -1 hour workouts a day?

[Schwah in reply to sammamish]

No...three 1 hour 15 minute workouts total per week. But that time is brutal brutal brutal. I hate it but I feel energized and my body is in better shape that in 20 years.

Schwah

[Hidden in reply to sammamish]

I might try the estradiol also . ronron told me he’s had success with it too. I’m also not stoked for bone drugs . Good luck

[GP24]

I would take estradiol patches. This can even increase your bone mass. Here are a review and a trial:

erc.bioscientifica.com/view...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/295...

[pjoshea13 in reply to GP24]

GP,

From the 2nd link:

"Transdermal E2 significantly raised serum E2 from baseline to day 28 compared to placebo in the 0.9 mg dose group (median: 208 pmol/L; interquartile range: 157-332) and in the 1.8 mg dose group (median: 220 pmol/L; interquartile range: 144-660)."

Using a pmol/L to pg/mL conversion app for estradiol:

"Transdermal E2 significantly raised serum E2 from baseline to day 28 compared to placebo in the 0.9 mg dose group (median: 57; interquartile range: 43-90) and in the 1.8 mg dose group (median: 60; interquartile range: 39-180)."

For bone health, E2 need only be above 12 pg/mL.

For general health, the optimum is between 20 & 30 pg/ml.

I don't know what the point is of going as high as 180 pg/mL, or of wanting a median of double the optimum.

-Patrick

[GP24 in reply to pjoshea13]

The trial in the second link tried "to assess the effects on circulating E2 concentrations in men", so it was mainly a dose-finding design. The concentrations they observed may not be the lowest required to mitigate side effects of ADT.

When using oestradiol patches instead of Lupron, they use even higher E2 levels:

"Median oestradiol level at 3 mo was 70 pmol/l in the LHRHa arm (5th–95th centile range 19–114 pmol/l) and 685 pmol/l (350–1788 pmol/l) in the OP [=oestradiol patches] arm"

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[pjoshea13 in reply to GP24]

GP,

Yes, very high doses of E2 are used for ADT, & very low doses are sufficient for bone health. Often a cause for confusion in E2 threads.

Added to which: my contention that E2 dominance is to be avoided when not on ADT.

-Patrick

[FCoffey]

I've been taking Beta Hydroxybutyrate (BHB) for some time as part of a ketogenic diet. It is related to but distinct from the β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate (HMB) used in the study. The claimed benefits are similar. I use it before weight training sessions.

I would be concerned about adding glutamine; there is evidence that it may promote PCa.

[j-o-h-n]

I've been wait training for many years...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 04/25/2019 6:35 PM DST