Are eggs bad for PCa?
This study sure seems to think so.
I quit eating them three years ago because of the choline content but this article suggests that there’s something in eggs that cancer cells thrive on.
It seems so many forms of protein are not so good for prostate cancer.
Dr. Myers said no beef or pork.
It seems there are a number of sources that say no milk.
Chicken and Salmon seem to be the only protein sources that everyone seems to give a clean bill of health to.
If I had to choose between the chicken and the egg, the chicken wins hands down.
I’m a moderate chicken eater so I’m glad to hear it may be safe.
I'm a porry jeater, and I avva plate a day,
If I diden eatit very much, they'd carry me away.
I don't eat cows or pigs, but sometimes I eat chooks,
And when I cycle past a nice big paddock full,
they give me dirty looks.
Dr Myers also told me no egg yolks, red meat, cholesterol etc
Rightly or wrongly I continue to follow that dictum. Also put me on Crestor; especially since I seem to have an issue with small particle LDL
Egg yolks are the best part of the egg in my opinion. MSCCCPDQASAP.
My Doctor put me on Crestor about a year ago and I'm going to go off it. Big pharma is charging over $600 for a 30 day supply- I get it for $7 for a 90 day supply but I'm not going to be a part of the government rip off by Crestor. Red yeast rice will be good enough. I don't believe my LDL needs to be under 70.
Ridiculous to take an article in Men's Health as a prescription.
Are you suggesting the study they are referring to is fake? I might have to cancel my subscription to Mens Health and GQ as well.
No - the conclusions you are drawing from it are unwarranted. I'm sure the authors of the study said that the results should only be used to decide on future research research - you went way beyond that to clinical implications.
No...GQ is legit. And the guys are hot. 😉
GQ, legit? Sure, when it comes to fashion.
It's all good, I know, I was just being clever.
sarcasm needs to be identified for the concrete thinkers. That's not a bad thing- just different. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
"Ridiculous to take an article in Men's Health as a prescription."
Yeah, I guess so. LOL And often the popular press can't be relied on to accurately convey the substance of medical research.
But it is easier to stay away from allegedly dangerous things than to affirmatively take allegedly good things.
That was an old 2011 article that ITcandy cited. I looked up Erin Richman, the researcher. She hasn't published anything recently. But seems to have published a number of research articles on fat intake and prostate cancer:
Here is summary information from those of her studies that I was able to access (most of the links sent me to sci-hub.tw which I do not know how to use).
1. The positive relation between choline intake
and risk of lethal prostate cancer remained in all of these models.
Yet, we cannot exclude the possibility that unmeasured factors
2. We observed no association between postdiagnostic consumption
of processed or unprocessed red meat, fish, or skinless
poultry and risk of prostate cancer progression among 1294 men
with a diagnosis of localized prostate cancer and followed for an average of 2 y. However, postdiagnostic consumption of poultry
with skin and whole eggs were associated with 2-fold increases in
risk of prostate cancer progression
Tall Allen, what opinions have you formed about protein and/or fat intake and prostate cancer?
Proteins, fat, and carbs certainly feed prostate cancer cells, as they do all cells. If you deprive yourself of all 3 macronutrients you will starve yourself to death and assure that you will die of other causes before prostate cancer has a chance to kill you. I think it is unwarranted to draw clinical conclusions from low level of evidence studies like these. People who eat skinless chicken and reduce egg consumption tend to be more careful in general about what they eat and drink. Association is not causation.
With all due recognition that "Association is not causation" after just doing a quick look at the abstracts of that particular researcher, some notes to self I took away from it:
1. I really need to stay away from carbs and sweets. LOL
2. Keep up the exercise.
3. Put cruciferous vegetables back on the menu. Yechh
4. I need to re-evaluate vitamin e.
5. Either no eggs (or just whites of eggs)?
6. Changing from 2% milk to skim milk.
7. No chicken that is cooked with the skin.
8. Stick to Olive and Avocado oil (I will continue to avoid canola oil because of Dr. Myers heavy emphasis to run away from it)
9. Almonds and almond butter is good.
10. “Consumption of healthy oils and nuts increases plasma antioxidants and reduces insulin and inflammation, which may deter prostate cancer progression,” So maybe I revisit antioxidant supplements like resveratrol, curcumin, and Lef.org's MacuGuard
PS: Would anyone make any modifications to the above?
Since oxidative stress is how your body cures itself of cancer, I think your conclusions are dangerous to your health. Increasing your intake of antioxidant supplements can only increase your rate of cancer progression. That's what was proved by the SELECT study - it led to a lot of biochemical research on the role of reactive oxygen species in controlling cancer. Ignore it at your peril.
"Since oxidative stress is how your body cures itself of cancer,"
I have always wondered if that was so. No one ever discusses that. And that has bothered me a bit.
This is the first time I have ever seen someone come out and say that. You would think there would be some research on this, wouldn't you. (oops the select study? but that was just vitamin e and selenium???)
Though I think the body uses apoptosis and active absorption and digestion of wayward cells, doesn't it? If you have rapidly reproducing cancer cells, and marginally reproducing healthy cells, this background source of stress, you would think, would likely adversely affect normal marginally growing cells than the rapidly growing cancer cells?
Many people discuss it - people on sites like this routinely ignore such discussions.. It is called confirmation bias in psycHology. And while you said "with all due recognition of the fact that association is not causation," you did not give it any recognition at all.
If you are able to move beyond your confirmation bias, you may want to read this, by one of the men who first understood the structure of DNA (see especially Sections 17-18 and 23)
The SELECT RCt was the only large randomized clinical trial of its kind EVER. It is Level 1 evidence that antioxidant supplements interfere with natural cancer-killing processes. I shows causation, not just association. Its implications are not easily brushed aside as you seem to want to do.
"with all due recognition of the fact that" the odds are against me, I choose to bet $100 on Red 31. LOL
It's more like taking a reasonable gamble.
If you only roll the dice on a sure bet, you never bet. In most of life's circumstances, all you need is good odds or favorable odss, not 100% certainty bets.
There is a difference between outright stupid and taking calculated risks.
The SELECT RCt study was about selenium and the alpha version of vitamin E. Right?
I think my list of resolutions is not crazy. It is for instance, far different than betting on the hope that you can eat baking soda and the somehow its pH will migrate to cancerous prostate cells (while avoiding the healthy prostate cells and all other cells in your body), and will then magically kill your prostate cancer. No?
Do you have a link to the SELECT RCt study?
You would have taken that bet based on the evidence as far as it was known at the time for Vitamin E. They purposely used the kind of vitamin E found in all health food stores and supermarkets - the kind men were then buying to PREVENT prostate cancer. "Given that more than 50% of individuals 60 or older are taking supplements containing vitamin E and that 23% of them are taking ≥400 IU per day..."
And here are the SELECT trial results;
There was great hope at the time that antioxidants would be the GREAT NEW HOPE for cancer - it proved the opposite. It also proved the importance of LEVELS OF EVIDENCE, which the amateurs on this site seem to blithely ignore. MOST lower levels of evidence are overturned when the testing progresses to higher levels. This is why animal studies and epidemiological studies turn out to be next to worthless except for hypothesis generation.
That said, I don't think most dietary changes are harmful, it is the lack of safety of taking supplements that I object to.
"It also proved the importance of LEVELS OF EVIDENCE, which the amateurs on this site seem to blithely ignore".
I must admit that you're very good at constantly insulting members without resorting to ad hominem attacks.
It is not an insult to point out that you are ignorant of something you do not know. It is easily available to learn. Get educated! It'll be better for your health.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about. - Wayne Dyer
Exactly! And the remedy is to go out and learn, as I said.
buying the cheapest product is not how you get healthy in this country.
"You would have taken that bet based on the evidence as far as it was known at the time for Vitamin E."
You win some and you lose some. LOL
I do notice that the SELECT trial study neither claims nor implies anything about any oxidative mechanism. The vitamin E effect from the alpha form of vitamin E seems rather modest and also seems to be moderated by selenium. (POshea here claims that the gamma version acts entirely differently from the alpha version).
More importantly, are you aware of any studies or trials that deal specifically with the oxidative mechanism and prostate cancer? To me, this would seem like a much more important issue than vitamin E. I don't know how many people are supplementing with vitamin E.... but I think a whole lot are on the anti-oxidants ride. A whole lot. A way whole lot.
Evidence that anti-oxidants might contribute to or even cause cancer could destroy billions of dollars of corporate value. LOL
EDIT: The Royal Society article I think is way above my ability to understand its reasoning. But it does seem like it is saying anti-oxidants might contribute to or even cause cancer. "In light of the recent data strongly hinting that much of late-stage cancer's untreatability may arise from its possession of too many antioxidants, the time has come to seriously ask whether antioxidant use much more likely causes than prevents cancer." We have here one Nobel Prize Winner slamming another Nobel Prize Winner. That article was dated 2013. Has Watson gathered many followers to his conjecture since then?
Way way whole lot.
Let's face it Linus Pauling went way out on a limb on the Vitamin C thing - which no competent biochemist subscribes to at this point Watson, on the other hand, gives his sources, and takes baby steps in reaching his conclusions. Watson has indeed carried the day in his theories about the biochemistry of cancer. The biochemistry of ROS in destroying cancer has been elucidated in many peer-reviewed journals before and since. It destroys cancer both through apoptosis and through killer Tcells. If what he is discussing in that seminal essay is way beyond your reasoning, then maybe it's time to take a few steps back.
You don't think loading up our meat supply with anti-biotics is bad for us? Monsanto's poisons being sprayed on our food is OK with you? I can't agree with that since we are what we eat.
Looks good to me but I wouldn’t give up the dark chocolate. There’s a lot of buzz about the benefits of organic virgin coconut oil as well.
I try to consume at least two tablespoons daily.
It's not buzz- it's the truth sneaking out. organic virgin coconut oil has medium chain triglycerides- a good thing not the bad thing "scientists" claimed.
Try roasted cauliflower or roasted broccoli .. it is really good. Also Buffalo cauliflower is really good too.. There are recipes on the web. Some use chic pea flour.. I have used both regular and chic pea flour and not noticed a difference. Also I have a really awesome recipe for a cauliflower curry.. that is yummy.
I think radishes are a cruciferous vegetable. Even my kids can eat them by the dozens raw. You might like kohlrabi … it is a cruciferous vegetable too.
Good old cole slaw has cabbage which is also a cruciferous vegetable. (It is great as a condiment on a sandwich too!)
Hope this helps you reconsider cruciferous vegetables.
My issue with the oils are that some oils are supposed to be unhealthy if used at high temperatures.. I thought this was true of Olive Oil but I would love it if I was wrong.
Avocado oil works at hi temps
Thanks.. I will try using it.
I'm with you on olive oil but I think there's some change that takes place if the heat is too high- not a good change. Coconut oil and peanut oil might not be great replacements but that's what I use- have never used canola oil and I never will, If insects avoid it then I will too. There is no canola- it's a made up name because they're using rapeseed oil- not a good marketing name.
Thanks. Organic peanut oil and coconut oil should be easy to find in the grocery store. Will also get the avocado oil.
No. I just want to give a high recommendation to staying away from Canola Oil. Hard to believe that professional cooks still use it because of the government. Animals avoid rapeseed- the source of Canola oil. Who would buy rapeseed oil?
People who can't make their own decisions?
Myers said to stay away from canola oil.
What is the exact biochemical reason to do so?
I don't have the exact biochemical reason to avoid canola oil. I have never liked it or the smell. When I found out insects won't eat the rapeseed plant- the source of canola oil- I never used it since then. Olive oil, coconut oil and peanut oil is enough for me.
Maybe try almond milk vs cow milk.
Here is an article from UCSF quoting the same researcher:
Men with prostate cancer may significantly improve their survival chances with a simple change in their diet, a new study led by UC San Francisco has found.
By substituting healthy vegetable fats – such as olive and canola oils, nuts, seeds and avocados – for animal fats and carbohydrates, men with the disease had a markedly lower risk of developing lethal prostate cancer and dying from other causes, according to the study.
The research, involving nearly 4,600 men with non-metastatic prostate cancer, could help with the development of dietary guidelines for men with the disease. While prostate cancer affects millions of men around the world, little is known about the relationship between patients’ diets following their diagnosis and progression of the disease.
The study was published online on June 10 in JAMA Internal Medicine.
“Consumption of healthy oils and nuts increases plasma antioxidants and reduces insulin and inflammation, which may deter prostate cancer progression,” said lead author Erin L. Richman, ScD, a post-doctoral scholar in the UCSF Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics.
“The beneficial effects of unsaturated fats and harmful effects of saturated and trans fats on cardiovascular health are well known,” Richman said. “Now our research has shown additional potential benefits of consuming unsaturated fats among men with prostate cancer.”
Notice the difference in conclusions you draw and the researchers draw . The researchers wrote, "The potential benefit of vegetable fat for prostate cancer–specific outcomes merits further research." A hypothesis-generating panel study should not be used as prescriptive evidence for patients. There are too many uncontrolled variables.
Scientists can't reverse 30 years of peddling misinformation in one swoop. Coconut oil was wrongly outlawed. It has medium chain triglycerides- not long chain so now it's OK although people with thinking ability never stopped using it. The government is busy killing citizens for larger profits on a daily basis. Sometimes the good guys win- as in this case where the fat BS is being reversed although slowly.
Did the article differentiate between the yolk and and white?
I just looked at the abstracts. Maybe you could take a deeper look, see what you find and post it back here? I would like to know the answer to that question as well.
The yolk contains lecithin which has essential unsaturated fatty acids. The fat BS is being reversed- finally -too late for those who depend on the FDA for eating advice.
Patrick wrote a great article on this as well.
Here is why I couldn't find more recent research by the author. Name Change LOL. Here is her UCSF profile:
Erin Van Blarigan, ScD
Here is more conclusions from her clinical research:
1. Among men with nonmetastatic prostate cancer, replacing carbohydrates and animal fat with vegetable fat may reduce the risk of all-cause mortality. The potential benefit of vegetable fat for prostate cancer-specific outcomes merits further research.
2. Brisk walking after diagnosis may inhibit or delay prostate cancer progression among men diagnosed with clinically localized prostate cancer.
3. She is currently doing a Phase 3 trial on vigorous exercise and prostate cancer: Intense Exercise for Survival among Men with Metastatic Castrate-Resistant Prostate Cancer (INTERVAL-GAP4): a multicentre, randomised, controlled phase III study protocol.
4. Among men with prostate cancer, diet intake after diagnosis was not significantly associated with urinary or sexual function, although some relationships appeared to differ among men with and without symptoms prior to their prostate cancer diagnosis. Higher vegetable intake and lower polyunsaturated fat intake after prostate cancer diagnosis may be associated with better urinary function. However, this analysis was exploratory, and further research is needed to better delineate these relationships and guide dietary recommendations for men with prostate cancer.
5. In conclusion, whole milk consumption after prostate cancer diagnosis was associated with increased risk of recurrence, particularly among very overweight or obese men. Men with prostate cancer who choose to drink milk should select non-fat or low-fat options.
6. Diet and lifestyle factors, in particular exercise and smoking cessation, may reduce the risk of prostate cancer progression and death. These promising findings warrant further investigation, as their overall impact might be large.
7. However, the strong association between circulating plasma folate concentrations and increased risk of high-grade prostate cancer should be interpreted with caution, given the complex issues discussed above.
8. Circulating carotenoids at diagnosis, particularly among men carrying specific somatic variations, were inversely associated with risk of high-grade prostate cancer. In exploratory analyses, higher lycopene level was associated with less genomic instability among men with low-grade disease which is novel and supports the hypothesis that lycopene may inhibit progression of prostate cancer early in its natural history.
9. Vigorous activity is associated with lower risk of prostate cancer progression, but the biologic mechanisms are unknown. Exercise affects vascularization of tumors in animal models, and small, irregularly shaped vessels in prostate tumors are associated with fatal prostate cancer. We hypothesized that men who engaged in vigorous activity or brisk walking would have larger, more regularly shaped vessels in their prostate tumors.
10. Among men with non-metastatic prostate cancer, saturated fat intake may increase risk of death and vegetable fat intake may lower risk of death.
11. Among men without metastases when diagnosed, higher intake of dairy foods after prostate cancer diagnosis may be associated with increased prostate cancer-specific and all-cause mortality.
12. Two post-diagnostic dietary patterns were identified: a Prudent pattern, characterized by higher intake of vegetables, fruits, fish, legumes, and whole grains; and a Western pattern, characterized by higher intake of processed and red meats, high-fat dairy and refined grains. A post-diagnostic Western dietary pattern was associated with higher prostate cancer-specific and all-cause mortality, whereas a Prudent dietary pattern was related to lower all-cause mortality after prostate cancer diagnosis.
13. The least active men had shorter telomeres in stromal cells than more active men (Ptrend = 0.002). Men who were overweight/obese and the least active had the shortest telomeres in stromal cells (20.7% shorter; P = 0.0005) compared with normal weight men who were the most active. Cancer cell telomere length and telomere length variability did not differ by measures of adiposity or activity. Telomere shortening in prostate cells may be one mechanism through which lifestyle influences prostate cancer risk and outcomes.
14. Selenium supplementation of 140 or more μg/day after diagnosis of nonmetastatic prostate cancer may increase risk of prostate cancer mortality. Caution is warranted regarding usage of such supplements among men with prostate cancer.
15. Patients should be counseled not to use tobacco products; to engage in daily physical activity; to minimize sedentary behavior; to consume plenty of healthy fats (i.e. fish, nuts, vegetable oils, soybeans, avocados, flaxseed) and vegetables; to focus on getting nutrients from foods rather than supplements; and to limit refined grains, sugars, processed meat, and high-fat dairy.
16. Among men with nonmetastatic prostate cancer, higher circulating prediagnostic α-tocopherol may be associated with lower risk of developing lethal disease. Variants in GPX4 may be associated with risk of lethal prostate cancer, and may modify the relation between γ-tocopherol and prostate cancer survival.
IMPACT: Circulating tocopherol levels and variants in GPX4 may affect prostate cancer progression.
17. Results suggest that the consumption of foods and multivitamins that contain folate is not associated with prostate cancer progression after definitive treatment.
18. Among men with clinically organ-confined prostate cancer, genetic variation in SOD may be associated with risk of high-grade disease at diagnosis and disease recurrence. Circulating γ-tocopherol levels may also be associated with an increased risk of high-grade disease at diagnosis.
19. Among men with nonmetastatic prostate cancer, replacing carbohydrates and animal fat with vegetable fat may reduce the risk of all-cause mortality. The potential benefit of vegetable fat for prostate cancer-specific outcomes merits further research.
20. With the exception of whole milk, our results suggest that milk and dairy intake after a prostate cancer diagnosis is not associated with an increased risk of lethal prostate cancer.
21. Red and processed meat may increase risk of advanced prostate cancer. Data on postdiagnostic diet and prostate cancer are sparse, but postdiagnostic intake of poultry with skin and eggs may increase risk of disease progression. Therefore, we prospectively examined total, unprocessed, and processed red meat, poultry, and eggs in relation to risk of lethal prostate cancer... In conclusion, consumption of eggs may increase risk of developing a lethal form of prostate cancer among healthy men.
22. Cruciferous vegetables, tomato sauce and legumes have been associated with reduced risk of incident advanced prostate cancer. In vitro and animal studies suggest these foods may inhibit progression of prostate cancer, but there are limited data in men. Therefore, we prospectively examined whether intake of total vegetables, and specifically cruciferous vegetables, tomato sauce and legumes, after diagnosis reduce risk of prostate cancer progression among 1,560 men diagnosed with non-metastatic prostate cancer and participating in the Cancer of the Prostate Strategic Urologic Research Endeavor, a United States prostate cancer registry. In conclusion, cruciferous vegetable intake after diagnosis may reduce risk of prostate cancer progression.
23. Our results suggest that the postdiagnostic consumption of processed or unprocessed red meat, fish, or skinless poultry is not associated with prostate cancer recurrence or progression, whereas consumption of eggs and poultry with skin may increase the risk.
Oh crap (#14). My daily multivitamin brags about selenium content of 200 mcg. Guess I need to find a multivitamin without selenium ... or just not use a multivitamin at all? Good to be made aware of this anyway. Thanks for posting that info.
." Diet and lifestyle factors, in particular exercise and smoking cessation, may reduce the risk of prostate cancer progression and death. These promising findings warrant further investigation, as their overall impact might be large."
I read through everything you posted from this woman's research and I came away with a low opinion of her use of our language. this is just a sample. "...exercise and smoking cessation may reduce the risk of prostate cancer progression..." I know what she meant but that's not what she said. She said to quit exercising. Another section read as though immediately following your diagnosis you should begin walking briskly. Didn't she have anyone to help her write her opinions? She also tried to tie selenium into the progression of prostate cancer. I doubt that many guys are taking selenium prior to diagnosis. After diagnosis- panic phase- they start using everything they hear about that is "recommended". She used that to link disease progression? Was there a control group is this?
Its bs. I never or hardly ever ate eggs, never smoked...or did drugs and very rarely drank and was a vegetarian for over a decade AND was in excellent health and it made no difference at all. And my genetic profile showed no genetic defects hereditary or otherwise. It's a crap shoot...so I say...have an egg.
I rarely eat eggs. They are only a part of my breakfast when I am not at home. Egg McMuffin is my speed.
Just wondering if the choline content in eggs is in the white, the yoke or both? I’m a big egg white eater and now a little concerned.
The vast majority of choline is in the yolk. Egg whites should be fine.
The choline content in the carton of egg whites, regular size, is equal to 1 egg; the egg whites in the carton are equal to 10 eggs. I eat 4 cartons a week. Therefore, I have choline content equal to 4 eggs a week.
Very strange but I’ve been looking for that exact info online for hours with no specifics. Can you provide the link to where you found that info on egg white choline content?
Patrick O'Shea has an article where he mentions egg consumption and PCa . You will find it on this site. Please search this site.
What do you think of Salverstrols?
I cannot say I think eggs are bad for Pca, because I don't have any reasons to think that way so I can only say I feel they are OK, and all I know is that I have eaten thousands, but I am still alive after having Pca for maybe 15 years.
Pca needs very little glucose input, so to grow it needs other things that are to be found in any man's bloodstream. I guess if I ate no eggs, and no other food, sure enough the Pca would perish, but it would die just after I did, starved, by a zealous change to lifestyle.
In fact, the Pca might leap from under 6 feet, and dance on my grave singing "I did it my way", but not sound quite as good as Frank Sinatra.
Hahahaha....lol, lol, lol.....good one, Patrick. Cheers, mate !!
People said not to believe in Men's Health.
Trouble with Mens's Magazines is that the focus on young dudes who have a robust level of 150% good health.
It seems to me they are a bit inward looking. Its a bit of a change from the Penthouse I once knew which gave all of us so many happy endings when the real pussy just wasn't always present.
Any way, there are the later Men's Mags at my dentist's waiting room, and NOT ONE ARTICLE ABOUT OLD FARTS. I can assure all young men, they will end up OFs one day. But they cannot bring themselves to think about anything than happens over 45.
But there's a lot here about what to eat, and about how much, and well, mu BMI is under 25, Resting HR 50, and I cycle 200km+ a week at 71. Before having double TKR
18 mths ago, I gave up all meats because it tended to make all my joints ache because there was so much wrong with my knees. Well, pains went lower without meat, and although walking was bad I could still keep fit cycling. I discovered the world does not need a meat industry, the bloomin vegans were right.
I eat lots of fresh green vegies. NEVER too much. Was on Abiraterone + predisinolone until 10 days ago then stopped because it has completely failed to work. I guess my body found out a way to stop these things working. I am already feeling much better,
although have continuing hypotension from continuing ADT. Don't stop be eating well.
But stopping abi and predi has weight increase so I have to go to eating less, and that's been easy for me, and I am keeping well.
I start chemo in 2 weeks. I might try Beta Glucan to boost immune system.
We love Beta Glucan. I have my hubby on 2 kinds.. Better Way Health - Beta 1,3 D Glucan(They have better deals if you call in your order).. Turkey Tail supplement from Oriveda - I also take 2 of the Better Way Health Beta Glucan a day and have had the best year ever with regards to my allergies. Those were the best sources for Beta Glucan that I had heard about. If you hear about others that are good please share. Good Luck with chemo!
I looked up Beta Glucan and there is a big following but ppl say it is for it is for lowering cholesterol, and I found nowhere there is Beta Glucan for boosting immune system.
I found very little support onlne for ideas of Dr Vetvicka of Hungary. I saw this man's video where he is interviewed with smooth guy, who is in it for the money.
I don't need to lower my cholesterol.
The ideas of Dr Vetvicka might be good, but I cannot tell if what I buy is any good at all or just what is in the bottle.
Quote by Robert Anton Wilson:
"If one can only see things according to one's own belief system, one is destined to become virtually deaf, dumb, and blind."
There is so much that is not the same or i cant do. Remember the seventies when eggs were so bad for you? Now they are not. Im going to eat anything i want unless i want to loose weight. One thing that i can do, im going to keep on doing it. Not enough time to fix anything with diet.
I like to read the original research rather than something filtered through a reporter.
by the same author, notes that
"Postdiagnostic choline intake was not statistically significantly associated with risk of lethal prostate cancer ..., and this relation was unchanged when we included red meat, milk, poultry, whole eggs, or fish in the multivariate model.
Postdiagnostic intakes of the choline-containing compounds were not associated with risk of progression to lethal prostate cancer. Smoking, BMI, Gleason score, and age at diagnosis did not modify the association between postdiagnostic choline intake and risk of lethal prostate cancer..."
So they found a statistical correlation with self-reported measures of choline intake (eggs are high in choline) when examining a small number of lethal prostate cancer cases: 271 prostate cancer deaths during 33,679 person-years. But that correlation disappeared when they looked at choline consumption after diagnosis.
Men are diagnosed at all stages of prostate cancer. It seems strange that eggs would stop promoting the progression of the cancer to lethal after the biopsy confirming cancer. It seems more plausible that the pre-diagnositic result is due to chance, random variation in a very small sample, plus the inevitable and often large errors in self-reporting of diet.
Or it could be that eggs do have some role in the initial development of the disease, but once cancer is established, they don't make that much difference. Since this group is for advanced prostate cancer patients, that interpretation suggests we don't need to worry about eggs in moderation.
If you eat too much of anything it is likely to make you sick. Nothing in this study causes me to want to reduce my egg consumption.
Maybe for a lot of us it is too late to suddenly change diet and expect to live for a further umpteen years.
For myself I take the attitude that I should eat sensibly; modest portions of lotsa things, not too much steak coz my teeth are a bit buggered, a reasonable amount of cruciform veg only coz it make me fart, not too much milk when there is red wine to be drunk.
Guys, I don't have too long to go I suppose , I'm now ten years past diagnosis with a then PSA of 166 and GS 9. I don't pig out on food but I eat what I enjoy eating and bugger the lentils 24/7. And I think that I'm a better person to live with. I intend to enjoy the rest of my life be it long or short; to hell with the sack cloth and ashes!
I know I'm wrong to say it but there is a lot on this wonderful site that I don't start to understand, and frankly I have better things to do than worry my soul case with it, I just want to enjoy what is left of my life!
Until we have definite proof I will follow the nutritionist at the hospital, she said eat anything you can stand to eat,cancer cells will make there own sugar from anything you eat. Me I have a big bowel of ice cream every night before bed, add in a brownie or something like it. Maybe they are talking about getting cancer but I have stage 4 and have a monthly visit with my oncologist,all numbers stay good no matter what I eat . 😀😀 fight the good fight.
The following are my thoughts. Your mileage may vary.
My prostate cancer is unique, and the relationship it has with my body is unique. On top of all that, my body is an unimaginably complicated biochemical system that is in a constant state of flux- constantly adapting to countless environmental and internal variables, with a concomitant unfathomable number of possible outcomes.
This is precisely why I studiously ignore such pop science articles in the popular press that breezily suggest simplistic one-size-fits-all solutions for complex and serious illnesses, particularly when it comes to eliminating specific foods from one's diet.
In my world view, it is absolute bollocks, and I refuse to subscribe to it.
I have a competent health team who know my history and my disease, and we talk.
There's precious little certainty to be found in the Universe, but I do know this-
Every second I spend obsessively worrying about dietary minutia and the like will have been robbed from my precious remaining days. I'm here to live and love, fully and with great purpose.
One day, Grimmy will knock on our door, and he does not take no for an answer.
A limited study by the late, esteemed Dr. Theodor Suess Geisel found that eating green eggs and ham was good for you.
My doctor at md anderson told me to eat more beef,for the iron?
A link to an article by Dr. Greger on eggs, poultry, meats, choline and prostate cancer.
Eggs, Choline, & Cancer | NutritionFacts.org
There is also a YouTube video or two, or more, about this. Dr. Greger listed results of a study and the amount of choline in various meats. Fried chicken legs had much less choline than sautéed, skinless, chicken breasts. The researchers surmised that the skin on the chicken legs somehow insulated the meat resulting in less choline being formed---hmmm? Rare beef had less choline than well done beef. Mutton contained no choline--Mary had a little lamb--which might have been eaten by a man who had been treated for prostate cancer--maybe?
Thinking about the reduced amount of choline in the rare beef and fried chicken legs with the skin on them, is it the heat that causes choline to somehow change and become dangerous? I wonder if they thought about the consumption of raw eggs? Quite a while ago Muscle & Fitness mentioned a study that raw egg consumption was to be avoided and that there really wasn't a benefit to eating eggs raw as raw eggs interfered with the body's ability to utilize biotin.
An excerpt from this article is below---
"Dr. Erin Richman and colleagues at Harvard. So, they took more than a thousand men with early stage prostate cancer and followed them for a couple years to see if there was anything in their diet associated with a resurgence of the cancer, such as spreading to the bone."
Back to my thoughts on heat, cooking and the changes that it may cause in our foods. This effect may only occur with animal products. It seems that the vegan lifestyle gives one a better chance of staying biochemically free of recurring cancer albeit boring and time consuming. Being a vegan in industrialized societies is challenging.
A Dr. Greger video about choline that is interesting. From the 4 minute and 55 seconds to the end for prostate cancer information.
This is one of Dr Greger's excellent videos on PCa on nutirtionfacts.org.
It's hard for me not to take his advice... however it appears some choline is essential for health & unavoidable on any diet:
Some studies even show dietary choline doesn't effect TMAO levels:
"However, not all studies found an association between diet and TMAO levels . In a study involving 271 participants, consumption of meat, egg, or fish was not associated with TMAO, choline, or betaine concentrations ."
It would be ideal if this was all sorted out for us but it hasn't been.
It leaves me uncertain regarding my diet so I focus on a lot of vegetables, low sugar and some fish (which is apparently high in choline and TMAO). No eggs or dairy.
This is actually somewhat related & interesting:
Thanks for the links.
The source of the choline is important. I looked at a couple other of Dr. Greger's videos or maybe it was something I read this morning that he posted, choline from vegetable sources don't seem to be the culprit but choline from animal sources looks guilty as sin. All this is relatively new. For instance fried chicken legs have less choline than sautéed, skinless, chicken breasts. The researchers sort of "guessed" that the skin insulated the meat from the heat as in well done beef had more choline than rare beef.
Dr. Greger mentioned studies about the Seventh Day Adventists and the very low incidence of cancer among those that followed strict vegan diets.
Ruth Heidrich has a fascinating story of recovery. Breast cancer in her 40's, mastectomies but no chemo or radiation despite "hot spots" on her ribs. She was a runner. She answered an ad by Dr. John McDougall who was looking for those who had cancer and who might be interested in becoming vegans to control or cure their cancer. Heidrich increased her running and went vegan. Within a year the "hot spots" on her ribs were gone. I have a humble theory of my own about Heidrich. Personal trainers use the phrase, "Form follows function", to illustrate how the body adapts to stresses on it. Running on a surface causes shocks to be sent through the skeletal system. To meet the physical challenges placed on the body's structure by the impact of running, the body deposits minerals to strengthen the skeletal system. Blood, both white and red cells, stem cells and the immune system originate in bone marrow. That is why marrow donations work for cancer patients. Becoming a vegan cleans out your body and running strengthens the immune system maybe by the impact on the skeletal system. I hope my observation that the combination of the two are stronger than either one alone. An elliptical, a bike or treadmill will not stimulate the skeletal system as running does. The impact shock is reduced or absent when using these exercise devices.
Heidrich is in her early 80's now. If my memory is correct she completed her last Ironman or Triathlon at the age of 80. I think she has record. She is the author of "Forks Over Knives".
When are the prostate cancer pills due on the market? The pills that cure prostate cancer like Harvoni cures Hep C. I'm waiting!
I was a pre PCa runner & cyclist but... the ADT now makes it very difficult for me to run more than a few hundred yards without taking a break. My muscles just wont do it. Very frustrating.
ITCandy, talk to your Medical Oncologist and not some Men's Publication! Prostate Cancer is simply mutated cells that have gone awry and rapidly multiplied .... almost all are genetic defects! You have genes that control your everyday life from longevity to susceptibility to life threatening illnesses. We are all different. Living with or adjusting one's lifestyle eating habits on the word of "may" have plagued modern mankind for over 60 years in my short 71. Recommendation on eating Eggs has changed four times, BBQ several times, Red Meat, a like amount, Coffee at least three times in my lifetime.
A better project to study is, for example, why did my mother just celebrate her 100th birthday and my father died at age 59? Oh, it's been done - genetic makeup. Embrace life and pray that you have a great genetic makeup.
Keep kicking the bastard.
Gourd a Dancer
Great stuff, gourd_dancer, I like
Since PCa is generally an older man’s disease and most guys don’t think about the bad stuff they’re doing to their bodies when they’re young it’s hard to see how changing diet after dx can be of any help so late in life.
They have to study these things to get paid and boy have they got a lot of different conclusions. Almost all of of them say more study is required. More study more pay. Some may be good. I like the crap shoot thing as I say do as your gut says and get on with it. I like both sides to it so"thanks for the memories" as Bob Hope says.
I'll have mine sunny side up.... and hold the bacon...
Good Luck and Good Health.
j-o-h-n Friday 07/06/2018 4:28 PM EDT
Said Rooster to his own dismay:
“Not my hens, such eggs, no way!
There’s but one cock so bold
To make me cluckhold;
That rascal they call Fabergé!”
j-o-h-n Friday 07/06/2018 4:33 PM EDT
What I sayis everything in moderation, we must things anyway. Follow your diet but enjoy yourself my friend and only come this way once.
"ROS vs. metastases.
In many types of tumors including prostate cancer, melanoma and breast cancer, the increased metastatic ability of tumor cells is positively related to their intracellular ROS level.
Exogenously administration of ROS would enhance certain stages
of metastatisis, while anti-oxidant treatment could attenuate
Even surgical procedures, a primary option for treating tumors, can lead to the increased growth of metastatic tumors by ROS generation.
Possible mechanisms involve aber-rant expression of integrins and MMPs and suppression of anoikis, as indicated by in vitro studies.
Intriguingly, Ishikawa K. and his colleagues recently have provided direct evidence to confirm the causative relationship between ROS and tumor metastasis. After
replaced with mitochondria DNA (mtDNA) derived from a highly
metastatic mouse tumor cell line, an originally poorly metastatic
cell line acquires the metastatic potential. The transferred mtDNA
contain mutations producing a deficiency in respiratory complex I
activity and are associated with overproduction of ROS. Pretreatment
of the highly metastatic tumor cells with ROS scavengers suppresses
their metastatic potential in mice."
I use to see Dr. Myers for several years before he retired. He seemed to think so as well due to the cholesterol. He would tell me it’s like throwing gasoline on fire....it feeds the cancer. Also my new oncologist also believes the same because of high cholesterol content. Basically both advised more of a plant based or mediterrran diet. If you do eat meat they they advised don’t eat red meat or pork. Fish and poultry are ok but smaller portions.
liked meat and eggs..lived to 100. Starting today I am following the God Diet...eggs for breakfast.....
\"Studies have shown that the prostate cancer we see clinically in men in their 50-60s likely started...
(3 cups or more) in PREVENTION of prostate cancer. (The confusing part is that it’s not good for you if...
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