SUPPLEMENTAL SOURCES OF ANTI-CANCER A... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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SUPPLEMENTAL SOURCES OF ANTI-CANCER AGENTS--OR--[HOW I CAME TO HATE ANYTHING FROM NATURE UNLESS IT HAS PASSED DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES] PART-1

Nalakrats
Nalakrats

Part 2 will address a few hundred drugs that were derived from nature, and from natural edibles, for other diseases besides cancer. Certain people on this site show a particular animus towards natural supplements, have convinced others to avoid Natural Substances that were never double blind studied approved. This causes some, besides me to wonder if certain individuals here are spokespeople for the Pharmaceutical Industry. Just think, when we went to the Moon we could not just do a Double Blind study. When Aspirin was discovered in the Willow Bark did we double blind study it first? The only reason my Mother made it passed her 26th Birthday, with a burst appendicitis--was the experimental use without study of Penicillin, for such a condition--it was done on faith, of some previous work.

Supplemental sources of anti-cancer agents, many such have come from plants. the derivatives of which have been shown to be usable for both the treatment and prevention of cancer in humans. Without bibliographies, as the list is too long, these papers argue that the use of natural products has been the SINGLE MOST SUCCESSFUL STRATEGY IN THE DISCOVERY OF NOVEL MEDICINES! There are those plant chemicals that are selectively more toxic to cancer cells than normal cells that have been discovered in screening programs and developed as chemotherapy drugs. The cancer drug {Topotecan] is found in the extracts of Camptotheca--some call the Happy Tree. Hells Bells many here use [Honokiol] from the Magnolia Tree. [Catharanthus roseus]--or their Vinca Alkaloids were originally made via the extraction from the Madagascar Periwinkle. [Podophyllum peltatum] has within it, 2 Chemotherapy Drugs, namely Etoposide, and Teniposide. [Euphobia peplus], contains ingenol metubate[Picato], which is used extensively to treat skin cancer. Maytenus ovatus, an edible Ethiopian Plant, contains a natural antibody[Trastuzumab Emtansine] And is used to treat Breast Cancer. And as many of you know of---the clippings of the Taxus brevifolia[Pacific Yew], have been used as the basis for 2 chemotherapy drugs, Docetaxel and Paclitaxel.

I think one will get the point I am making--but if needing further examples without botanical names--we have Hamlet[Human alpha-lactalbumin made lethal to Tumor Cells]---derived from human breast milk, that causes apoptosis to cancer cells. now being used for skin and bladder cancer. Or how about Quercetin---a principle flavonoid compound and a great free radical scavenging{OH MY GOD} Antioxidant, that promotes apoptosis. It shows interesting antitumor activity in Oral cancer, and leukemia. Cultured skin and Prostate Cancer cells showed significant mortality when treated with a combination of Quercetin and Ultra Sound. The sound waves promotes topical absorption of the Quercetin by 1,000 times. According to scientists, one in the group, Gian Luigi Russo, at the Institute of Food Sciences in Italy, suspect that high intake of Fruits and Vegetables that contain Quercetin are associated with the reduction of certain cancers---sorry you can do your own studies on the above--and this will be an only reference, in this post.

As an aside some of you know that I did a lot of the original Tea Chemistry work in the 1960's--especially that which surrounds EGCG, and ECG, and on the way discovered and synthesized the now in the stores Theanine--a sleep aid found as an amino acid in Green Tea. Not tooting here---but to make a point back in the 60's I and others determined over 400 compounds in Black Tea and over 200 in Green Tea, before enzymes converted the Green to Black. To this day we do not know what many of these compounds are. Meaning we cannot find a certain amount of them in other substances--we have elucidated their structures--but are just for now unknown compounds--with or without any known benefit, or uses to mankind. We just know they are natural and exist in nature.

The overall take away is that the Pharmaceutical Chemist does not sit down today on his computer and try to construct a molecule out of thin air for cancer---he/she looks to Nature and its Natural Plants, Supplements and other Living Things to find unique compounds, to study and evaluate. So Hurrah for Nature for providing Natural Substances that have increased Man's life on this Planet, and cured diseases. It is said in the Bible that God has given Man all that He needs--we just have not found them all yet.

Nalakrats

81 Replies

"HOW I CAME TO HATE ANYTHING FROM NATURE UNLESS IT HAS PASSED DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES"

Agreed. And peer reviewed.

Glad to see your move towards evidenced based medicine. I heartily approve.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to cesanon

Then you missed the whole point--I was being felicitous--and I was making the point that aspirin was not peer reviewed, or was going to the moon, or the use of penicillin, on my mother---and that the Natural substances I outlined including Quercetin, used for cancer, have not all been peer reviewed. When reading I suggest you pay attention, instead of following the Cult of Incremental Medical Mediocrity, of which you and your other friend proscribe to[Medical Political Correctness]--want to know about the double blind studies of Aspartane, EDTA, Thalidomide, and others I can name? Unknown millions from K street to get FDA outcomes, we will never know how much---Have you ever had to stand in front of the approval board of the FDA, with your Attorneys to get something approved? Well I have 3 times. Enough of the whole process, is a sham--oh remember eggs are no good for you and butter will give you a heart attack, so use Oleo. Unilever paid off the FDA with their Phoney Peer reviewed studies, for margarine. Took 4 decades to get the FDA to Listen to People like me that Trans Fats were Plastic Polymers--and will kill you if you ingested them in enough quantity. All the new off the Lab Bench PARP inhibitors for breast and Pca, are not reviewed at all--they are fast tracked---yep some patients will die--they were going to anyway---Get Real--and Get with what God has provided.

Nalakrats

Jvaughan0
Jvaughan0 in reply to Nalakrats

youtu.be/rn6w255CGkk I have always admired your passion.

Break60
Break60 in reply to Nalakrats

Felicitous or facetious ?

whatsinaname
whatsinaname in reply to Break60

"God" knows :-)

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to Break60

Sorry my bad---facetious is what I was trying to say---my spell check--screwed me up. I apologize.

Nalakrats

Break60
Break60 in reply to Nalakrats

I never rely on spell check...just sayin😇!

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Nalakrats

What is the point in touting nutrition to those That are clearly on the other side of the fence. Most seniors ain’t going to change their stance or eating habits because its hard to make that change if you’ve eaten badly your entire life prior to PC you are stuck inyours ways...I say that more guys don’t make the Change than do. I feel the benefits of good nutrition when I practice them. When I fall of and eat “TheOld” way of sugar and meat

I feel like sh@@ I immediately. The proff is in trying these things and seeing results with extended use. We spent our life’s prior to pc creating this negative hotbed of our pc chemistry. I will try natural remedies until my last breath. It’s hope in the goodness that God has provided for us . All good things come from

Nature. Big Pharma is a pariah. Counteract the bad ( drugs, adt , Rt ,chemo) with the good provided in nature. Take a hand in healing ourselves , instead of just taking what we get from bid pharma. Do good to our bodies. Or not? The other side of this fence is ; Big Macs , refined sugar consumption and indulging in processed junk that is not fit for our human condition. There is No cure for APC .We all know that. I owe all of the destruction of my male makeup to adt . Eating well and nutrition makes me feel good. That’s enough for me. I cheated the other day , ate an awesome rib eye steak sand with grilled onions and mushrooms. Mama Mia that was mouthwatering and delicious. Then right back to spirilina ,tofu hummus and lots of organic veggies. Eat to live or live to eat. This is a personal choice. Each to their own. Enjoy life.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to Hidden

Enjoy that steak now and then. I have 8 T-Bones in My freezer--tonight it is Chicken, but I may pull the plug on a T-bone for July 4th. Yes grilled onions and mushrooms---same with me.

Nalakrats

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to cesanon

Let's inject some economics into this discussion. Double blind / peer reviewed hoo-haw costs money. There's no money in supplements for Pharma. If they can't charge at least $10 a pill they aren't interested. University researchers might do this type of research. Pharma certainly won't so don't expect economically driven double blind studies of supplements.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to WSOPeddie

That is a very good point. Deserving of a dedicated discussion chain.

Dr. Myers though seemed to get by. There is some research out there. He would take that research and mix it with his medical expertise and apply it to his recommendations.

He would change his recommendations as new findings come out.

The world is a big place, and there's a lot of research out there.

Wow! It's going to take me some time to absorb this. Thanks for the post Rats, I also believe in natural supplements as a weapon. I'm in your camp.

"I was being felicitous"

Ohh OK.

On the other hand, Apricot pits anyone?:

quackwatch.org

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to cesanon

Have a big Banana Split--no need to reply.

Nalakrats

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

LOL

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to cesanon

Perhaps you are thinking of modified citrus pectin? Is it not enough to observe a benefit from a natural ingredient and, seeing no evidence of harm, try it out? Does everything need a double blind study blessed by the great Medical Thinkers?

cesanon
cesanon in reply to WSOPeddie

You can't know what the cause and effect is, even if you think you can. See generally:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun...

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to WSOPeddie

We had double blind studies on Thalidomide--approved and it killed babies! We had blind studies on Aspartame to find that 1% of users wound up with Multiple Sclerosis. Searle the Inventor paid off the FDA. It is a well known fact amongst some of us up high in the food industry. There was a great Sweetener call Cyclomate in the late 60's which got approval, was harmless, but then the people who made Saccharin, wanted into the soda business, and had studies that required humans to consume a bathtub of soda--doing rat studies to prove some rats got cancer--so to put Cyclomate out of business--again the FDA got bought off. The approval of Margarine as a substitute for Butter, was a payoff to Unilever, as we as chemists back in the 60's knew that Trans Fats which we called Partially Hydrogenated Fats--which did not exist in nature---had the chemical structure like a plastic Molecule. Now 4 decades later it is being banned. Red Dye number 2 replaced Red Dye number 4 because someone paid off the FDA to get rid of Red Dye number 4, which there was nothing wrong with. So the rest of this world uses Red Dye number 4, but the United States, we use Red Dye Number 2 and it is banned elsewhere---what is wrong with that picture. I can go on for a few thousand words---the whole thing in Washington is Political and with hands held open for bribes. Our FDA, is a Political entity, controlled by the lobbyists of K street, for whoever is in power.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Nalakrats

Thankfully, science is progressive. We make mistakes, hopefully learn from them, and do better next time. Past failures are exactly why the Oxford Institute established Level of Evidence guidelines. They are subscribed to by anyone who is seriously interested in medical science. Staying the path gets us a lot further than voodoo.

A paranoid view of government and the pharmaceutical industry isn't good for one's health. Are there some bad actors? Yes - and they make the news as an unusual happenstance when discovered. And a there are a lot of watchdogs. I think that most scientists working at the FDA and at drug companies are really trying to find new drugs that are safe and beneficial.

Drug companies routinely screen thousands of natural products. There is even a field devoted to that (called Pharmacognosy). They look at Chinese, Ayurvedic, and other traditional medicines. They isolate the active substance from the other, sometimes toxic, ingredients, and test them in various cell lines. Unfortunately, fewer than one in a thousand make it past early screening, and most of those fail to show safety or efficacy in clinical trials.

In spite of all those failures, the drug development for prostate cancer has accelerated. Just in the past ten years, we have docetaxel, abiraterone, enzalutimide, cabazitaxel, radium 223, apalutamide, and hundreds more in the clinical trial pipeline that you sneer at. We also have discovered better ways to use them. There have also been great strides made in diagnostics - mpMRI, PHI, 4Kscore, Decipher, OncotypeDx, Prolaris, CTC, Axumin and PSMA-based PET scans, and dozens more. Treatments have also improved greatly in the last ten years - robotic RP, SBRT, active surveillance, dose escalation, adjuvant therapies, focal therapies, salvage therapies, etc.

We are all doing better because of the efforts of the FDA and drug developers. Ignore the progress made at your peril.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to Tall_Allen

To bad you do not know the real truth, as you would have had to be a participant. The buying of favored status, is still bought as I write, at the FDA. You use the term I think--which means you do not know for sure. I am a fan of the drugs, for Pca--so I do not know where you got the notion that I am not. I am also a fan of supplemental treatments. Thus I favor both, and in some cases such as my own have used them together. So there is a 1 in a 1,000 chance to find a molecule in a natural substance that might have value. Too Bad--God did not say it would be easy. And there are over a Billion compounds yet to be evaluated in Nature.

And when I look at the overall statistics, of the new drugs which are upgrades of old ones, except for the Targeted Drugs , Immunology and the use of Bismuth, Radium, and Lu--177 as new agents--I find you will still die within 90 days or so of the use of old 1999 treatment modalities. So scans can see better--but once the PSA gets low they cannot find them--they cannot find the dormant bastards--and where they are hiding.

I see 50 years of research that has advanced the Medical communities war against PCA as moving the clock from 2 minutes past noon to 5 minutes past noon.

Granted there is a lot in the works, some of which i cannot talk about, as certain things are still on the Lab Bench---I have personal knowledge of 25 Patients with less than 60 days to live all being cured but one who died of a heart attack. Drug has a number, and cannot be produced yet except at the Lab Bench thru synthesis--and yes it exists in Nature. Estimated cost, is about 100,000 per dose. You may be Tall, but you do not know everything, as I do not either. How about taking your foot off the animus against natural supplementation. I do not knock drugs, as you knock supplements. But I prefer a natural substitute if available, over a drug.

But I can tell you: you would have more followers, and less people who think you are standing on a soap box preaching, the unfailing Medical Community---only makes me think you were once in the field or frustrated by not having been in it. You could have more friends, if you want.

Nalakrats

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Nalakrats

I was never in the field other than a BS degree in biochemistry (which is why I understand your errors in basic biochemistry) and a brief stint 40 years ago in a medical lab doing biochemistry . I did market research for 20 years, which is why I understand and have respect for testing methods and statistical inference. Inadequate methodology, even with a huge sample size, often leads to erroneous conclusions. I have plenty of friends, thanks for your concern.

I have nothing against supplements - I have something against making unsubstantiated claims for efficacy and safety based on anecdotes, mouse studies, epidemiological data and opinions. The only way to PROVE efficacy and safety is with a randomized clinical trial. I am more wary than you of saying something that may harm my peers.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to Tall_Allen

I assume you are now finished--as my e-mail is getting clogged up with direct messaging. And Bio-Chemists never understood the molecular reactions in the body as I have been trained---so lets call it a day.

Nalakrats

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Nalakrats

I have no idea what molecular reactions you are talking about, but if you didn't "get trained" by biochemists, you should suspect the credibility of the training you got. The biomolecular reactions in the body is precisely what biochemistry is about.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to Tall_Allen

OK Tall--give it up---I can see any kind of back talk or criticism gets the hair on your back up. I stand by my 5 degrees and 6 publications---how many do you have.

Nalakrats

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Nalakrats

I have several hundred publications that would meet your criteria. I'm glad you continued your schooling. I suggest you add a degree in biochemistry before you write about it. Please avoid ad hominems - they bring the level of discourse to the gutter.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

"5 degrees and 6 publications"

May I ask what the degrees are?

I think there has been a flawed working assumption here amongst some us maybe it was more like an uncompleted undergraduate degree from the Wharton graduate school.

Please show us the error of our ways.

ITCandy
ITCandy in reply to Nalakrats

Don't waste your time, Professor. Your time is much better spent helping the hundreds of members that rely on your research to deal with this disease. I am extremely grateful for the immense knowledge that I have gained through your posts.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to ITCandy

Thanks

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

"hundreds of members that rely on your research to deal with this disease."

1, Rats, what is the research that you do?

2. Is that research in the same fields as your 5 degrees?

3. In what fields are your 5 degrees?

4. What are the titles of your 6 publications?

Many of us need this information to take what you say credibly. Without this information some of us are going to think you are just making this up. And therefore will not obtain the full benefit of all the effort that you have invested in that research.

Of course for myself, I don't believe for a moment that you would ever resort to fabricating facts in order to make your point.

Kevinski65
Kevinski65 in reply to Nalakrats

Actually, they're using thalidamide off label for advanced prostate cancer... or so I've read.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to Kevinski65

True---as most Chemo Drugs are unto themselves poisons. That is the idea; poison the cancer without killing the host body.

Nalakrats

teamkv
teamkv in reply to Nalakrats

And then there is the fallout from DES.... They knew it did absolutely no good, but it was the babyboom years...and they were making so much money...what is the harm...

Food for thought! I've begun to wonder about posts mentioning or tooting specific drug names. TY Dave

Thank God, medical science has progressed far beyond where we were in the days of willow bark and penicillin mold. There are always luddites who do not believe in progress and want to return to Shamans and Witch Doctors.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen

It's not unlike current tribal politics.

People see truth in what they want to hear... and fake news in what they don't want to hear.

Facts be Damned!

LOL

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to Tall_Allen

Aren't you the one who disparages DRE's as being primitive and un-helpful? That we should now use fancy and expensive MRI's or what-not that insurance companies are unlikely to authorize? Maybe the old ways have some benefit that shouldn't be abandoned. It's to the point that the Great Medical Thinkers believe that PSA testing after age 70 is not warranted for who knows what reason and that younger men should be given the option of a PSA test or not, so as not to trouble them with inconvenient results. Is that the kind of progress you favor?

cesanon
cesanon in reply to WSOPeddie

Have you ever heard of the phrase "setting up a straw man and knocking him down"?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Str...

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to WSOPeddie

He never found a drug that he did not like. But claims a cure while using the supplement Sulforaphane--guess he did not want to eat a lot of Broccoli.

Nalakrats

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to WSOPeddie

I don't think the way DREs are generally done in community practice is very useful. Interestingly, there are some "palpation devices" that are in development - perhaps that may be more accurate. You are wrong to attribute to me opinions I do not hold. In fact, I have argued AGAINST the use of mpMRI for initial diagnosis. But your comments have nothing to do with the OP's post, does it?

cesanon
cesanon in reply to WSOPeddie

"DRE's as being primitive and un-helpful?"

Actually in my case it missed what was going on in the Apex of the prostate.

Dre without PSA tests are not so good.

Unfortunately God has also let greed through to be popular with man. Therefore, people promote anything for any reason, and try to make it sound like real science, when it’s not. Spokespeople get paid to advertise their product in either camp, that is what I object to in this mess; especially when they do it on here. When they do it is so obvious, insulting, and with no evidence whatsoever. That is when I say something. If one says it works, it must work at least for some people consistently, for me. If one has to rely on testimonials, the that is two strikes against them. If it is offered by a chiropractor on a website, another strike, they seem to be looking to expand their profession beyond their license and training. Natural is not bad at all! If I detect more salesmanship than evidence, not gonna do it.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to Don1157

You know my approach, I report, tell you I am not a Doctor, occasionally admit to using some things, have offered no evidence of remissions or cures, and ask that you research anything I might bring up. I wish others would do the same. False Hope is ungodly.

Nalakrats

Remember that some of these fda approved medicines often are only effective 10 to 50% of the time with mostly negative side effects. I'll take my supplements any day with mostly positive side effects. Keep up the research Nal and all. Many thanks. Rocco

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to rococo

Understood--hope you got my point is that everything starts with what we have in nature, and of course this is where our supplements come from. Drugs are concentrated versions or synthesized versions of that which is in nature--so low dose amounts will be strong, when applying to patients.

Nalakrats

Excellent point.

rococo
rococo in reply to Nalakrats

One of mos once said not to over intellectualize the biology oc cancer and I MIGHT ADD THE PHARMACOLOGY, BUT THAN HE PROCEECCED TO THE BLACKBOARD DRAWING DRAWING CELLS AND THE MEDD EFFET. YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM IT. ANOTHER METAPHOR USED DR. BARKEN THAT THE CANCER DIDN'T GO TO UNIVERSITY AND SOMETIMES SIMPLE OR older med can still be effective. Rocco

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to rococo

Discarding medicine for voodoo is dangerous. I hope you will reconsider.

I appreciate and concur with your post (er, rant :)). I have made similar comments to people who have expressed skepticism about phytochemicals. Although good quality results from Phase III clinical trials, aren't always available, sufficient work has been done with some phytochemicals using in vitro, in vivo methods and in Phase I and II trials to make judicious assesments of their potential value. A good example is a review I submitted to my medical oncologist regarding the close similarity in the mechanisms of action of enzalutamide and diindolylmethane (DIM). He initially seemed interested and then on the next visit refused to talk about the review (in fact his exact words were, "I cannot talk or comment about it). I believe he was "told".

I am very close to Dr. Zeligs the Urologist and PHD in Chemistry who developed the Patented Bioresponse DIM. He share about 40 of his internal papers with me. And later was published at the NCI. DIM is one of a handful of Substances that will for some alter the actions of the AR-V7 gene splice to allow Extandi to work again after failure.

My ADT 6 program--number 5 is DIM. And has been for near 30 months--just got delivery for my last order, this past Saturday. I take about 20 supplements that have had positive results in vitro and in vivo, and some have gone thru Phase trial testing. none caused a remission, or a cure, but all I take had positive results, moving the needle in favor of the patient. As a retired Research Scientist, I am not only old enough, but experienced enough in making decisions about things of this nature--where I always look at the possible interactions or any harmful effects based on dosage etc.

Glad you are on board with certain thinking. Be Blessed.

Nalakrats

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

"Research Scientist" what research, and why only 6 publications in an entire career? It must have been some pretty deep research.

Please tell us what it was?

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to cesanon

As I was cleaning out my SPAM FILE--it was good to see how many of your messages were caught, and now unread and gone---just wasting your time.

Nalakrats

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

LOL, not so healthy an attitude for learning and exchange of information. No?

The part not so clear to me, is why the original troll question... then the unwillingness to engage with the very responses that it was calculated to elicit?

Hello Nalarats, I experienced an objective response when I started taking DIM (25 mg x 2 x 2 = 100 mg daily) October 2017. Then I cut the dosage to 50 mg for a month and saw the PSA rise again slightly. Since January 2018 I have been taking 100 mg/d and my PSA has continued to decrease from 0.24 to 0.12 ng/ml, which has perplexed my oncologists. I acknowledge that the accuracy of the PSA test may not be sufficient to discern such small changes, but when increases have occurred in the past over a 6 month period, the results are linear with with correlation coefficients of >0.95. Finally, in reply to some of the discussions that have transpired over the last couple of days, I have to say that as a scientist, I strongly believe in evidence based medicine and have undergone the standard of care (after, of course, reviewing their efficacy and risks, much to the consternation of my oncologists). After a careful review for safety and potential efficacy, I have used phytochemicals as adjuvants (only) to ameliorate side effects and potentiate the efficacy of standard therapies. I take full responsibility for my actions and the potential risks that I may be taking. So far I have not experienced any serious side effects, like bleeding or low blood sugar levels - on the contrary, I appear to have more energy than my fellow mPC travelers. It should be noted that a very good intervention that does not involve drugs or phytochemicals is intense exercise - I am sure that this is contributing to my current state of health. My apologies what is your ADT 6 program? Regards, Phil

I only use DIM 150, by BioResponse--that DR. Zeligs, Urologist and PHD in Chemistry devised and patented about 12 years ago. I am at 3 a day for your info.

You are the only one who asked about my ADT 6 which is now 4.

When on Lupron[Vantas Implant], that was number 1, with Casodex, 2, Avodart 3, Proscar 4, DIM 5, and Arimidex 6. I no longer use Lupron and Casodex, as the 4 plus my supplemental program is currently what I do.

Nalakrats

Thank you Nalakrats. Interesting. In addition to DIM I am taking metformin, aspirin, naproxen, quercetin, GTE, glucoraphanin (precursor of sulforaphane) and other phytochemicals. To counter the loss of bone mass due to ADT, I am also taking vitamin D (4000 IU), vitamin K and calcium fructoborate. Exercise of course is part of the regimen. I wonder whether it would be a useful exercise to collect the regimens of long term survivors and the rationales for the components. I am working on this for my own regimen. Phil

There are simple principles as to exercises---I like your supplemental program--as to protecting Bone Density my program is slightly different and is based on relationships in mg's between certain supplements for balance, and how they work with eac hother/ratio balance. And I use a few you are not taking.

Your MO's response to the DIM review you provided to him reminded me a bit of the reply I received from my former MO when I asked his opinion of Vit C infusion as a supplementary treatment option for patients with stage 4 PC. I thought my question was a gentle one (it was), but it really set him off. His reply was "I do not work for big pharma!" He quickly calmed down and suggested taking the recommended daily dosage of Vit C by mouth was probably a good idea.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to MontyB

I use to to EDTA Chelation Infusions for cleaning out my arteries--and we had a big room and a half dozen Docs. and Nurses---there were always cancer patients doing Vitamin C infusions with Alpha Lipoic Acid---then they went for the Bariatric Oxygen Chamber. I chelated for 4 straight years 3 times a week--and none of the stage 4 cancer patients died--that includes lung kidney stomach, and liver cancer--no Prostate Cancer that I know of.

As to C I recommend Liposomal C products. as they are 1200 times stronger--due to the fact the C gets to the liver protected by it being encased in a fat--and the liver releases the C directly into the blood--like getting an IV infusion. You can message me if you want other details.

Nalakrats

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

I recommend high-intensity vitamin C enemas.

Followed by vigorous prostate massages.

I just can't get enough of them.

MontyB
MontyB in reply to cesanon

How are those working for you?

Take Care,

Monty

dadeb
dadeb in reply to Nalakrats

I’d love details on the Bariatric Oxygen. Would it help for anemia? Also, we started liposomal C - I believe it’s from sunflowers? Just a tablespoon per day. I’d take any advice you can give. I’m one of the passengers on your train. 😊

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to dadeb

Hope the Liposomal is the real stuff---I never heard of it. I take capsules--2 in the morning from A-Squared--at Amazon. For Anemia are you now on ADT---I forgot. I will give you the best that can be done for anemia--but need to know your drug status. I will answer about the Bariatric--{for the Anemia--I think all this device will do is give more oxygen for your current blood cell count}---not increase the count.

Nalakrats

dadeb
dadeb in reply to Nalakrats

Lupron-Apalutamide is all. I’ve looked at BIRM - not Pectasol-C. Would they complement Apalutamide? I’m hopeful to get some time from it until Daralutimide is approved.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to dadeb

I am not a Doctor--so I can only talk on Messenger--I would get the 7X super concentrate BIRM and add Pectasol-C--Explaining how it all works is burdensome--as I have done it before often. Apalutamide is a baby step above Xtandi---and the combo above is used by many---I still use it even though I have been Undetectable for near 30 months. But I do not use the super concentrate BIRM---I use the single strength--as I am on maintenance. You can get Pectasol-C from Vitacost or Amazon, and BIRM 7X---by calling California Number----408-612-4508. If you decide to do it I will give use instructions according to my experience--not what the labels say.

Remember I am not a Doctor--and not suppose to be giving medical advice--on messenger. But my concern is to help all I can, if I can. It is kind of a Ministry for me---retired 13 years. You might try to find what is written here before, or you can Google both and read what has been presented in papers.---Right now the NIH--is using Dept. of Defense money to fund research and trials on BIRM, at the University of Miami Medical School--interesting--our Gov't has invested in it.And it is specific this study to Pca. Not selling anything--just reporting.

Nalakrats

dadeb
dadeb in reply to Nalakrats

I appreciated it. Thank you. I’ll pull up all the info already here.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to dadeb

In a recheck with the Mayo Clinic--they say that the Hyper Bariatric Chamber is used to treat Anemia--as well as infections and also cancer--you can buy a chamber for about 3600 dollars and rent them---so the added oxygen to your blood is causal treatment for Anemia--also I know that there is a promotion of the growth of stem cells.

Nalakrats

dadeb
dadeb in reply to Nalakrats

We have a Bariatric Chamber in the area. We were getting vItC infusions there, but switched to the Liposomal that they recommended for home use. We’ll give it a try and see if it makes a difference on his labs.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to dadeb

Cool!

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to dadeb

Do you have interest in BIRM and Pectasol-C?

Nalakrats

Right on Nalakrats! I am with you and I get it. Everything is from nature and God! Love the discussion as well. We are only right if it works for us. Open minds can heal. Thanks

cesanon
cesanon in reply to rocket09

Arsenic comes from nature as well.

Laetrile (Amygdalin) does as well.

"Amygdalin is a naturally occurring chemical compound, famous for falsely being promoted as a cancer cure. It is found in many plants, but most notably in the seeds of apricot, bitter almonds, apple, peach, and plum. Wikipedia"

To this day you can buy an organic version to treat your prostate cancer:

organicinfusions.com/

My Pleasure--there is a part 2 in the works--should hopefully be additive to the point I am making--Thanks for your support.

Nalakrats

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

Yes, I am waiting for part 2 as well.

MontyB
MontyB in reply to cesanon

Me too cesanon. I am waiting for part 2.

Take Care,

Monty

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to MontyB

There will also be a part 3.

Nalakrats

MontyB
MontyB in reply to Nalakrats

Thank you for this.

Take Care,

Monty

Nalakrats, Thank you so much for your information on supplements, I have been a silent reader for months. When my husband started on this journey to fight metastatic PC 2 years ago we went to God for direction. How do you fight cancer God's way? By listening to Him and following His direction and waiting for His peace. We aren't scientist or chemist and most of this goes over our head. So, we rely on God to guide us, that's how we fight cancer God's way. Some fight this with only conventional ways, some are all holistic and some choose a combination of both. Each person is lead in the direction they are suppose to go and we aren't to judge the one who takes a different path. Blessings to you, and thank you for keeping us informed.

All that I take came from praying, and getting a positive feeling, from the Holy Spirit. The only reason I am still here is because of my God. He has shown mercy upon me one more time.

Nalakrats

CJ4J
CJ4J in reply to Nalakrats

Amen!!

Hidden
Hidden

All of us that follow the natural ways salute you Nalakrats. Peace and good health to you dear sir. Thank you.

Thank You S.

Nalakrats

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